Author Topic: kickstart problem - pawl or spring?  (Read 296 times)

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Willbrunei

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on: April 06, 2021, 10:56:15 am
Hi all - me again.

All has been well but today a minor disaster.

I was kicking the bike over when there was a bit of a kick back (lazy kicking technique from me) and a big clang and the kickstarter went kind of weird.

No return of the lever. It still kicks the engine over and I was able to start the bike which ran fine.

Im not happy riding it as i am afraid of any debris in the gearbox.

So any clues as what may be the issue? The kicker has always "missed" occaisionally which i guess is the pawl slipping but i could deal with that as i could feel when it was happening.

This seems like the kicker return mechanism.

It is a 2007 500 military with 5 speed gearbox. All electric start trickery is long since removed.

Anyone suffered similer?
So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


Paul W

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Reply #1 on: April 06, 2021, 11:25:48 am
If it still kicks the engine over I’d think it’s just spring in the air.

If so, it’s unlikely to have caused much debris. But of course there’s only one way to find out.....
Paul W.


ddavidv

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Reply #2 on: April 06, 2021, 12:33:10 pm


I don't believe any of the kick start springs are in the gearbox proper. If the five speed is similar enough to the Albion you'll find them in the section between the outer cover and the 'inner cover' as I call it. The shifting levers and assorted nonsense are all in the mid-section separate from the actual gears.
2007 five speed 'Deluxe', 2008 Triumph Bonneville, 2012 Triumph Tiger 800


AzCal Retred

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Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 04:30:43 pm
The five speed looks similar in overall layout to the 4 speed - built to allow access to normal wear items. The spring accesses behind the outer cover and is straightforward. Snidals will guide you through it, but it's fairly obvious how it works once the cover comes off.

The kickstart is a "must run" item. On one of my bikes I found the KS stub shaft actually fractured, but still working. I was in there because the pawl had gone on holiday. The order lag time is an issue for you, so this is what I would keep as parts on stock:

1) Springs - 2X; Fatigue or manufacturing defects can kill these
2) Pawls - 2X; high stress part, wear is not kind to these items
3) Pawl Plunger - 2X; cheap & easy to lose
4) Pawl Spring - 2X; cheap & easy to lose
5) Kick Start shaft O-ring - 2X; seals oil in
--these items below live under the inner cover, a bit more work to get to and they MUST work well---
6) Kick Start stub shaft assembly - 1X; another high stress part, comes with pawl, spring & plunger. (about £30)
7) Kick Start Gear assembly - 1X; if this is worn very much at all, even a new pawl will have some slippage. I examined the old one against a new one and saw only minor wear, but it made a big difference in engagement. (about £45)

Shipping for all of these bits is likely the same as getting a KS shaft for free against being ordered separately. Once they are on your shelf you're set for any contingency, a big deal in Brunei.

5-spd
xxxxxxxxx
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/1864

PART No. 550040; £45.40
1ST GEAR ASSEMBLY, LAYSHAFT (5 SPEED) 500cc +SIXTY5

PART No. 550015; £30.70
KICKSTARTER SHAFT ( KS + ES, 500cc + SIXTY5 ) 5 SPEED
xxxxxxxxxxxx
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/1863#page-1863-position-12

PART No. 140333; £5.25
PAWL, FOOTSTARTER

PART No. 140332; £1.90
PLUNGER, KICKSTARTER PAWL

PART No. 140331; £0.48
SPRING, FOOTSTARTER PLUNGER (EACH)GER

PART No. 146450; £3.40
SPRING, KICKSTART (140324)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/1862#page-1862-position-11

PART No. 550031; £0.40
O-RING, KICKSTART SHAFT (5 SPEED)

Good Hunting - ACR -
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Willbrunei

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Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 04:09:12 am
Thanks all
I am going to open up the gearbox this weekend - see what the issue is and order parts as advised by azCal.

Shant be riding it until this is sorted I guess.
So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


Willbrunei

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Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 01:40:42 pm
So
Took the cover off
Spring is fine

When I try the kicker it turns the engine but is not returning
If I turn it back it makes a ratcheting sound.

I guess the pawl is the next step.

Getting the rocker shaft and gearchange striker mechanism out was an interesting 3 hours.... Pete Snidals manual is helpful but a little lacking in detail on key points for these late model gearboxes.

Anyway that bit is done ... tomorrow the carrier plate and the mysteries beyond....!
So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


Paul W

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Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 04:16:03 pm
There's a video on Youtube showing a 5 speed gearbox rebuild. I watched it when I was sorting a problem with the one I'd just bought and I wasn't sure how the gearchange mechanism is removed and replaced - it's far from obvious and very little room to do it.

Just as the video gets to the tricky part, there's a break in continuity - and the next frame shows it all back in place - it's a miracle!  ::)

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGWURtW50s
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 04:31:42 pm by Paul W »
Paul W.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 07:50:12 pm
Sounds like there are debris in the ratchet mechanism, so off comes the inner cover. The debris could be broken off bits of pawl. Having the new gear & maybe also the KS shaft assembly in hand saves a lot of rework... - ACR -
5-speed gearbox related You-Tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiO-9GXfCMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGWURtW50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg_vxen_bBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQhezTeb11w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZghPPX6KyU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1D9VyQfWNM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8QNcabGAKA  (Paul Henshaw)

Since you have everything apart, maybe this kit will catch your eye...The 1 down, 4 up will be an easier (& cheaper) adaption. With one Bullet it won't be a handicap.
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/19021?ref_page=SixtyFive
PART No. 90142 ; £195.00
5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE, 1 DOWN 4 UP
This kit converts the standard 5 speed left foot gear change to the traditional Bullet right foot change but changes the pattern to 1 down 4 up (we can also supply a version with 1 up 4 down). It includes all the necessary parts including a new machined outer cover, gear change shaft, brake pedal, bungs etc.  Note: The neutral warning light will be lost in this conversion.





xxx
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Adrian II

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Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 11:26:00 pm
Thanks for collating those, I have re-posted your list in the Bullet Electra and AVL Models section as we might need them too!

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


AzCal Retred

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Reply #9 on: April 09, 2021, 12:24:59 am
Gawd Bless You-Tube; it makes it so much more comprehensible to me to see those mechanical innards spread out on someone else's bench first!
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Willbrunei

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Reply #10 on: April 09, 2021, 04:19:34 am
Thanks for following this and giving advice/links.

I have put together a little document to remind me of the process so far - may be useful to someone else?

So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


Willbrunei

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Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 04:28:24 am
AzCal - I think I will stick with the left foot change. It is "natural" to me and as I have always had left foot change bikes and at my age, muscle memory is well ingrained and hard to change.

BTW, if it is debris from a broken pawl, how best to flush that out? Am I going to have to remove all of the gearbox innards? Or can I flush with a suitable fluid and drain?
So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


AzCal Retred

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Reply #12 on: April 09, 2021, 08:29:04 am
The stub shaft for the KS should come off with the inner case. The pawl mechanism is shoved inside the KS gear, so any bits will need to be manually cleaned out and the pawl at least replaced. The pawl is the frangible bit, it acts as a "directional wedge" to lock up the KS stub shaft motion to the KS gear, using the wedging of the pawl on the teeth on the inside of said gear. All the bits on the 4-speed look very similar, so I don't think it's any great mysterious task to renew these parts. Enfield seem to value field serviceability.

Depending on the destruction, the pawl, or the plunger, and maybe it's spring can all get chewed up. Most likely it's just the pawl. The KS gear with it's internal teeth needs to be clean and relatively unworn to work reliably. Mine was easy to slip off the end of the shaft after I got the inner cover off. All the debris should be inside the KS gear cavity or lying as small chunks in the bottom of the transmission cavity. Use the exploded diagram and keep track of any shims & spacers. With some care, maybe a rag & stick, and you'll get any stray bits.

I do advise having the KS gear in hand, it's just more delay & extra postage if you find out the hard way that you need it. I was inside mine twice because the gear inner teeth looked "good enough". There didn't appear to be that much wear, but the new one worked and the old one did not. But hey, now I'm a shade-tree expert.  :o

All of my gaskets came thru disassembly undamaged. I coated them with grease & reused them, filled up the box with gear oil and no leaks. Still, probably good to have on hand in case one of yours has vulcanized itself to both case halves and blows up. I don't know if it's thickness makes a difference to the mechanism on the 5-speed, so getting a couple is more cheap insurance against self-inflicted aggravation.

A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Willbrunei

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Reply #13 on: April 09, 2021, 11:01:53 am
 :) all good advice, well taken!
So far I have: removed electric start, removed panniers and crash bars, fitted Lycette seat and short silencer, rejetted carb, fitted pancake filter, rebuilt kickstart mechanism, replaced snapped clutch cable, fitted Lucas stop light, fixed headlight short ....


cyrusb

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Reply #14 on: April 09, 2021, 04:41:49 pm
:) all good advice, well taken!
I'm puzzled as to how you had a kick back? Are you using the decompressor correctly?
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