Author Topic: What's your thoughts on Loctite and other such goop?  (Read 392 times)

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Richie

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This question mainly comes from a slow day at work.
Last weekend  I started getting my bike ready for spring (Which seems to only be here by the calendar in the northeast US) and started having flashbacks of conversations I'd had with an old room mate.
He was a Harley guy and never used any kind of thread locker stuff (Or a torque wrench for that matter).
He always just made a point of keeping up with maintenance and generally checking that nothing is loose....er...I think.
I on the other hand, like the stuff.
You?
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zimmemr

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Reply #1 on: April 02, 2021, 05:39:06 pm
This question mainly comes from a slow day at work.
Last weekend  I started getting my bike ready for spring (Which seems to only be here by the calendar in the northeast US) and started having flashbacks of conversations I'd had with an old room mate.
He was a Harley guy and never used any kind of thread locker stuff (Or a torque wrench for that matter).
He always just made a point of keeping up with maintenance and generally checking that nothing is loose....er...I think.
I on the other hand, like the stuff.
You?

The shop manual will tell you where and what grade of thread locker to use. If the factory suggests using it, consider that handy information.

Same thing with the torque wrench. For sure you can get away without using one, most guys that make their living turning wrenches have figured that out. But the good ones know when to use it.


axman88

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Reply #2 on: April 02, 2021, 06:10:31 pm
I use Loctite when there's reason to believe that an old school lock washer won't do the job.  There's very little of it on my RE, but I generally add a lockwasher whenever I disassemble any bolt, even under a Nylock nut.  Nylocks get lazy after a few assembly cycles, and my tendency to use Anti-sieze probably isn't helping the plastic.

The Blue is nice, because it's strong enough to stay put, but weak enough to remove the fastener without damage.  Red sometimes requires torching loose.  I've sheered quite a few screws that were secured with Red Loctite.  They use Red here in my employer's assembly area.  There's always much cursing when the plant manager wants things reworked for whatever reason.

I have the idea in my head that Red and possibly Blue Loctite may stress crack certain types of plastic, but I could be wrong about this.  I avoid using petroleum based products, like lubricating oil, around plastic.


Guaire

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Reply #3 on: April 02, 2021, 07:19:33 pm
Vibra-TITE has worked for me. It's removable and I can clean it out of threads easily.
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #4 on: April 02, 2021, 07:48:00 pm
Well sometimes where loctite is specifically specified it does in fact pay to use it, but if to just protect threads from corrosion you can use clear nail varnish, it stops and water getting into the threads and stops corrosion you can undo without any special tools, also works holding small screws, of course loctite is not goop, but rather a scientific formular for certain type of engineering applications, if the manual stipulates its use you should use. But no need to use it everywhere very bad idea.


zimmemr

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Reply #5 on: April 02, 2021, 08:01:37 pm
I use Loctite when there's reason to believe that an old school lock washer won't do the job.  There's very little of it on my RE, but I generally add a lockwasher whenever I disassemble any bolt, even under a Nylock nut.  Nylocks get lazy after a few assembly cycles, and my tendency to use Anti-sieze probably isn't helping the plastic.

The Blue is nice, because it's strong enough to stay put, but weak enough to remove the fastener without damage.  Red sometimes requires torching loose.  I've sheered quite a few screws that were secured with Red Loctite.  They use Red here in my employer's assembly area.  There's always much cursing when the plant manager wants things reworked for whatever reason.

I have the idea in my head that Red and possibly Blue Loctite may stress crack certain types of plastic, but I could be wrong about this.  I avoid using petroleum based products, like lubricating oil, around plastic.

Axman: you obviously know what you're talking about so this is just to add a little something to the discussion and in no way critical of anything you posted. Besides it's cold as hell here today and I've got nothing to do while I'm waiting for the paint to dry on a honey-do project.

Before retirement I worked for Connecticut Light and Power as a garage foreman working mostly on bucket trucks, diggers and derricks. One of things we discovered there was that in some cases lock washers would actually cause bolts to loosen under certain conditions. The theory was that the lock washer reduced surface contact area and when combined with fretting would reduce it's spring tension allowing the fastener to loosen. In many instances we found that replacing the lock washers with a hardened flat washer worked better. Provided the fastener was properly torqued and a thread locker used as required.

I also tend to use anti-seize on many fasteners, but doing so obviously reduces the friction between the threads and makes it easy to over torque the fastener. So it's important to remember to reduce the applied torque by 10% anytime anti-seize is used, I'm sure you knew that but some readers may not.

As to Loctite stressing plastic, I've never considered it, but it makes sense that as the Loctite hardens and expands slightly it could create issues. And I agree using petroleum based products around any plastic never seemed like a good idea.

Lastly, I don't know why I remember this but I've read that the lifecycle of a plastic locknut is 15 cycles, provided it hasn't been over heated.


axman88

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Reply #6 on: April 02, 2021, 11:44:53 pm
Axman: you obviously know what you're talking about so this is just to add a little something to the discussion and in no way critical of anything you posted.

One of things we discovered there was that in some cases lock washers would actually cause bolts to loosen under certain conditions. The theory was that the lock washer reduced surface contact area and when combined with fretting would reduce it's spring tension allowing the fastener to loosen.

I also tend to use anti-seize on many fasteners, but doing so obviously reduces the friction between the threads and makes it easy to over torque the fastener.

As to Loctite stressing plastic, I've never considered it, but it makes sense that as the Loctite hardens and expands slightly it could create issues. And I agree using petroleum based products around any plastic never seemed like a good idea.
Thanks for saying that, but it's probably more accurate to say that I "think" I know stuff, but find out all the time that I don't.   I find that I learn a lot, by making dubious statements (not intentionally) and being corrected.

That item about the lock washers make sense.  One thing is for sure, my RE C5 is a reliable tester of fastener security.  More than one has gone MIA, the worst offender so far, being the nut preventing the rear brake drum from spinning.  It spun, the brake locked up, there was much cursing.

The anti-sieze has become SOP with me.  I grew up in Cleveland, OH, and Chicago is almost as bad a rust breeding environment.  I hate the suspense of trying to remove rusty bolts on the old beaters I have driven all my life.  Will it loosen?  Will it shear?  Will my socket crack or my 1/2" extension break?  The acetylene torch and Kroil gun are my constant companions.  I remember hearing somebody say, many many years ago, ... " I never grease wheel studs, the rust helps hold the lug nuts on!".  I didn't buy that nonsense, even as a 15 year old.  This stuff is my pal:  https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000FW7VGE/

 Stress cracking in plastic isn't exactly mechanical stress, and it isn't entirely chemical attack.  It's a combination of both factors, and every time I've seen it in action it has totally blind sided me.  Remove the stress and the chemical won't attack, remove the chemical and the stress is manageable, but together, big trouble.  Here's a write up describing the phenomenon in some detail.  https://www.plasticstoday.com/materials-analyst-part-22stress-cracking-how-avoid-silent-killer-part-1

I had time to do more research.  I was correct about Red Loctite 271 and Blue Loctite 242.  Both carry the mfg's warning "Not for use on plastic parts, particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of
the plastic could result".   https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/TDS-209741-US-Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271-Carded-Tube-0.20-fl-oz-2018-04-09pdf
https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/TDS-209728-US-Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242-Carded-Tube-0.20-fl-oz-2018-04-09pdf

I suppose it's probably the Methyl methacrylate causing the problem?  I see that the stuff also contain Saccharin, no idea why, and some other ingredients that we need to be warned about.  https://ypsswhdoal-a0d0758e9.dispatcher.hana.ondemand.com/SAP_GATEWAY/odata/SAP/YPSSWH_DOO_SRV/SafetyDataSheetSet(Appid='YPSSW_SDSUA_EXT',Matnr='209741',Laiso='EN',Rvlid='US',Dmskey='')/$value

The fact that regular Loctite is incompatible with plastic is probably why they invented Loctite 425, which is expressly compatible.
https://www.all-spec.com/Product/135461-30769


REpozer

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Reply #7 on: April 03, 2021, 12:47:51 am
It’s my experience with RE , that you need to occasionally hit all fasteners with spanners/ wrenches and Loctite all parts/ spares that you can’t afford to loose .
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zimmemr

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Reply #8 on: April 03, 2021, 01:45:49 am
Thanks for saying that, but it's probably more accurate to say that I "think" I know stuff, but find out all the time that I don't.   I find that I learn a lot, by making dubious statements (not intentionally) and being corrected.

That item about the lock washers make sense.  One thing is for sure, my RE C5 is a reliable tester of fastener security.  More than one has gone MIA, the worst offender so far, being the nut preventing the rear brake drum from spinning.  It spun, the brake locked up, there was much cursing.

The anti-sieze has become SOP with me.  I grew up in Cleveland, OH, and Chicago is almost as bad a rust breeding environment.  I hate the suspense of trying to remove rusty bolts on the old beaters I have driven all my life.  Will it loosen?  Will it shear?  Will my socket crack or my 1/2" extension break?  The acetylene torch and Kroil gun are my constant companions.  I remember hearing somebody say, many many years ago, ... " I never grease wheel studs, the rust helps hold the lug nuts on!".  I didn't buy that nonsense, even as a 15 year old.  This stuff is my pal:  https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000FW7VGE/

 Stress cracking in plastic isn't exactly mechanical stress, and it isn't entirely chemical attack.  It's a combination of both factors, and every time I've seen it in action it has totally blind sided me.  Remove the stress and the chemical won't attack, remove the chemical and the stress is manageable, but together, big trouble.  Here's a write up describing the phenomenon in some detail.  https://www.plasticstoday.com/materials-analyst-part-22stress-cracking-how-avoid-silent-killer-part-1

I had time to do more research.  I was correct about Red Loctite 271 and Blue Loctite 242.  Both carry the mfg's warning "Not for use on plastic parts, particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of
the plastic could result".   https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/TDS-209741-US-Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271-Carded-Tube-0.20-fl-oz-2018-04-09pdf
https://dm.henkel-dam.com/is/content/henkel/TDS-209728-US-Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242-Carded-Tube-0.20-fl-oz-2018-04-09pdf

I suppose it's probably the Methyl methacrylate causing the problem?  I see that the stuff also contain Saccharin, no idea why, and some other ingredients that we need to be warned about.  https://ypsswhdoal-a0d0758e9.dispatcher.hana.ondemand.com/SAP_GATEWAY/odata/SAP/YPSSWH_DOO_SRV/SafetyDataSheetSet(Appid='YPSSW_SDSUA_EXT',Matnr='209741',Laiso='EN',Rvlid='US',Dmskey='')/$value

The fact that regular Loctite is incompatible with plastic is probably why they invented Loctite 425, which is expressly compatible.
https://www.all-spec.com/Product/135461-30769

As usual there's good info here. I forget that this side of the page has a lot of Classic riders, I tend to think in terms or Himalayans or Interceptors which aren't as vibratory. You're also the first guy I've seen here to mention Kroil, in the truck/heavy equipment business we swear by the stuff. It saved more heartaches than Dear Abby in our shop.

As far as anti-seize on the lug nuts, I had a DOT inspector read me the riot act for using it on one of our line trucks. He claimed I'd over torqued the wheels using it. I explained that I'd reduced the torque from 450 to 400 ft lbs when I installed them but the SOB still made me pull all the nuts, clean the studs and nuts and retorque everything. After that I made sure to do a better job cleaning off the excess before I sent the trucks back on the road.  ;) ;) ;)


AzCal Retred

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Reply #9 on: April 03, 2021, 02:47:01 am
Years back we had taken in a used touring bike with a curved but flat windscreen on the fairing. The greasy desert grasshoppers had left a Windex-resistant baked on spot, so my partner in crime reached for the Krylon De-Greaser. A quick spritz and the grasshopper guts were no more, just sparkling clarity. In a few seconds a foggy, opaque spot appears. My buddy figures it's just residue drying and out comes the Windex again. Much rubbing & wiping ensues. The spot is visibly getting larger, we're thinking "Damn, we've got sand on the rags". The center of the opaque spot is getting fissured. Over the next few minutes we watched the entire windscreen turn to plastic diamonds and fall out, like in some low-budget sci-fi movie. A trip to the plexiglass folks, some jigsaw & sander work, a couple hours spent carefully drilling said plexiglass with a steel bit, and voila, a like new windscreen. Lucky it was flat.  ;D
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Guaire

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Reply #10 on: April 03, 2021, 02:20:44 pm
To Loctite or not to Loctite.
  That was the question. What's going on here?
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GlennF

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Reply #11 on: April 03, 2021, 05:02:57 pm
You can always drill all the nots and bolts and put in split pins :D



zimmemr

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Reply #12 on: April 03, 2021, 05:27:16 pm
You can always drill all the nots and bolts and put in split pins :D

Safety wire! Make it look like the race bike it is. ;)


AzCal Retred

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Reply #13 on: April 03, 2021, 05:49:51 pm
Guaire @ #10:  Unanticipated chemical interactions with plastics, that was the tie in. Test on a separate piece if unsure of the outcome.
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axman88

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Reply #14 on: April 03, 2021, 06:35:27 pm
To Loctite or not to Loctite.
  That was the question. What's going on here?
Actually the title of the thread is "Loctite and other such goop".

Threads always seem to drift, but pointing out that the common Loctite products shouldn't be used on plastic, and why, seems pretty relevant.  Anti-sieze, being essentially the polar opposite of Loctite, arguably qualifies as "other such".

I try to bring threads back on topic by posting more info that is ON topic, and not just complaining about the chatter.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #15 on: April 03, 2021, 06:40:01 pm
True but you got to make sure you drill right, l am just lazy would go for loctite and good pencil torch, everyone has a bottle or two in their box, but what about expiry dates, l was reading on another thread some bloke was using from a ten year old bottle.


zimmemr

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Reply #16 on: April 03, 2021, 07:06:17 pm
True but you got to make sure you drill right, l am just lazy would go for loctite and good pencil torch, everyone has a bottle or two in their box, but what about expiry dates, l was reading on another thread some bloke was using from a ten year old bottle.

A few years back I realized I'd accumulated more locking compounds than I could use in a lifetime so did some research on the how long it'd last. The general thinking was that as long as it was still liquid it was good. But the stuff is so cheap and you can buy it in very small quantity's, so it's probably better to get a smaller tube and use it up within a year or two. I have one large container of Suzuki Locking compound that I bought in 1978. It's just a shelf ornament but it has stayed liquid all these years.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #17 on: April 03, 2021, 09:00:12 pm
Well that's the same problem with me,l have lots of compounds some l bought 20 years ago, but still liquid and all  paints, what about oil expiry dates, normally on side of can if expired to use or not to use, l have a couple of 10-40 l would like to use but not sure about date, it's expired.


axman88

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Reply #18 on: April 03, 2021, 09:42:51 pm
Well that's the same problem with me,l have lots of compounds some l bought 20 years ago, but still liquid and all  paints, what about oil expiry dates, normally on side of can if expired to use or not to use, l have a couple of 10-40 l would like to use but not sure about date, it's expired.
This source says that the date printed on the side of the jug or bottle of oil is NOT an expiration date, it's the manufacture date.

https://www.blauparts.com/blog/motor-oil-expiration-shelf-life.html

Technically, there is no "expiration date" for lubricants that I'm aware of.  Only "manufacturers recommendations".  If you have information otherwise, please share.

I know that some manufacturers have recommended 5 years as the shelf life of their products, but I'm pretty skeptical.  Especially if we are talking about dino oil, that stuff was 50,000 years old when it went into the bottle.  If it has been kept away from heat and oxygen, in a sealed bottle, it doesn't seem likely to change its properties much in another 50 years.  I know that polyethylene is semi-permeable, but the amount of oxygen making its way through the bottle, especially if there is a cap layer, seems negligible.  Oil companies want to sell oil, they are all in favor of having you buy more, for whatever reason.  This company wants you buy more of their stuff after just two years:  https://www.lubricants.total.com/does-motor-oil-expire

Does this count the time the oil spends in the carboy before it gets put into the bottle, or the time it spends on a pallet at the warehouse, or the time it spends in back at the store, or the time it spends on the shelf in the store, or is it only the two years on your basement shelf that you need to count?   Count ME, very skeptical of these "recommendations".

I can't speak to synthetic, that stuff seems inherently more questionable.  Man made vs Nature made.

I'd dump my old oil into a clear container, check for sedimentation and separation, do a finger rub lubricity test, and if everything looked right, I'd use it, for sure.  I certainly have, and will continue to, use oil old enough to have been sold in a can that requires a can opener.   I should probably put what is left of those on Ebay.  They are old enough to be more valuable as movie props.

For reference I also use expired milk.   When the milk gets old enough that it curdles in my coffee, I make cheese out of it.


Richard230

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Reply #19 on: April 03, 2021, 10:25:32 pm
I will make two comments regarding Loctite: It seems to me that just about every fastener that can be removed and reinstalled by the owner of a KTM 390 Duke needs Loctite of various strengths, according to the owner's manual. I wonder why?  ;)

I don't see any of those types of recommendations for my BMW motorcycles. More often than not the factory wants you to throw away the fastener and replace it with a new BMW $$$ part that comes pre-coated with a dry blue thread locking compound stuck onto the threads.  ::)
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #20 on: April 03, 2021, 10:42:00 pm
Well l won't worry about the oil just use it, not been opened, regarding BMW it's normally blue or pink, whenever l have come across l just cleaned the threads and reapplied blue liquid, never had any issues with it. BMW bolts and genuine fasteners are not cheap. I know blue works and you can undo with a small torch that won't damage anything. You can run a tap down the thread to clean inside.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 10:55:44 pm by Karl Fenn »


Karl Fenn

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Reply #21 on: April 03, 2021, 10:57:21 pm
Have you thought they might have shares in the company.


Keef Sparrow

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Reply #22 on: April 04, 2021, 04:03:51 pm
Technically, there is no "expiration date" for lubricants that I'm aware of.  Only "manufacturers recommendations".  If you have information otherwise, please share.

I know that some manufacturers have recommended 5 years as the shelf life of their products, but I'm pretty skeptical.
I strongly suspect that dates on products like this are put on more for stock control reasons than genuine 'expiry' dates. They are either covering their asses or they just want to sell you more of their product that you don't actually need.
Past: CB125-T2, T500, GT500, Speed Triple, 955i Daytona. Now: Royal Enfield Bullet Trials 500


Karl Fenn

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Reply #23 on: April 04, 2021, 05:50:30 pm
Well that is what they have come to accept as business these days, l will keep mine test it on nut and bolt first, if ok l will use it.


Stanley

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Reply #24 on: April 04, 2021, 07:00:13 pm
 Some folks go overboard. Loctite is useful but won't cure paranoia.
 


Karl Fenn

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Reply #25 on: April 04, 2021, 07:16:29 pm
No paranoia here we are just conversing on products.


Richie

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Reply #26 on: April 05, 2021, 12:45:45 am
 Ha!
Even paranoids have enemies!  :D
If less is more, nothing at all is the most.
More or less.


Bilgemaster

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Reply #27 on: April 05, 2021, 03:08:01 am
I use a lot of this Harbor Freight stuff on my Bullet for just $2.49 (less than half the cost of the equivalent Loctite), and it seems to be holding my Bullet's junk together just fine while also keeping its mirrors from waving to and fro...


They also make a "Permanent" equivalent to Loctite's "Red". I do have a bottle, but haven't felt the need to up that ante yet. They also have a new "Semi-Permanent" one that I have not yet tried.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 03:22:28 am by Bilgemaster »
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.

(Legal enough to pass muster if they don't look too closely in Woodbridge, Virginia, where the buses don't run at night, holidays or weekends and I'm a contender for 'Village Idiot')


Karl Fenn

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Reply #28 on: April 05, 2021, 11:54:13 am
Yea that has come down in price a lot, china are knocking it out now at £3 a bottle delivered all strengths on eBay quite large bottles at that, seems to be a copy of loctite.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 12:28:07 pm by Karl Fenn »


Karl Fenn

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Reply #29 on: April 05, 2021, 01:02:29 pm
This is the Chinese clone of loctite available on eBay for £3 including post a very large bottle of medium strength blue.


NVDucati

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Reply #30 on: April 12, 2021, 02:08:15 am
There has been more than a few times when I have needed to do some work on the bikes during a trip. I would buy a bottle of cheap nail polish as a substitute. I'd chose a bright yellow or orange and add a splash of it next to the bolt on the frame, etc. Initially, I intended to replace it as soon as I got home. But on a couple of them I just checked them every few days, then weeks, then eventually just forgot about it. Maybe those nuts or bolts would have never backed off even if I did nothing. Don't know but one bike was a BSA 500 twin that continued to shed other parts for as long as I had it.
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #31 on: April 12, 2021, 03:12:45 am
There has been more than a few times when I have needed to do some work on the bikes during a trip. I would buy a bottle of cheap nail polish as a substitute. I'd chose a bright yellow or orange and add a splash of it next to the bolt on the frame, etc. Initially, I intended to replace it as soon as I got home. But on a couple of them I just checked them every few days, then weeks, then eventually just forgot about it. Maybe those nuts or bolts would have never backed off even if I did nothing. Don't know but one bike was a BSA 500 twin that continued to shed other parts for as long as I had it.

That nail polish hack may be familiar to many eyeglass wearers as the fix for those ever-loosening little hinge screws. A little dab right on top of that screw and/or nut'll do ya.
Fun fact: if you connected all of the little plastic tubes from all the cheapo eyeglass repair kits ever sold end to end you could probably run a skinny pipeline to the Moon! So, clean out the back of that cluttered junk drawer, nerds. Do it for science!
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.

(Legal enough to pass muster if they don't look too closely in Woodbridge, Virginia, where the buses don't run at night, holidays or weekends and I'm a contender for 'Village Idiot')


Karl Fenn

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Reply #32 on: April 12, 2021, 11:22:09 am
Nail polish does work l got the idea from the camera repair man he used to use it to keep screws in, it is quite easy to get undone you only need a small amount and it's dirt cheap as well.