[mangizmo]

   I have 20 Ltrs of fully synthetic 10W 60, Enfield specify 15W 50......I cant decide whether to use it or not ??

     V

[axman88]

I'd mix that stuff 50-50 with a 15w-40 from the same maker, (to ensure chemical compatibility) and have myself a lifetime supply of a blend with an effective 13w-50, or thereabouts, viscosity rating.

Should also be compatible mixed with old school dino oil.

Or trade it off to a vintage Harley rider.  My buddy says he runs 60 weight mixed with 80 weight in his '68 in the summer and oil pressure still drops to next to nothing when it's idling.

[Karl Fenn]

I think it would be ok to use if you mixed it, but remember oil has a life expectancy of only a few years.

[Bilgemaster]

Precisely which brand and type oil is it? You've got a 2020 Bullet Trials, right?

At the risk of helping jumpstart yet another dreaded "Oil Thread", my initial hunch is that while it wouldn't be such a bad summery "topping off" brew for an older Iron Barrel or other similar preunit style British bike with its separate gearbox and primary, your UCE's finicky clutch might object unless that 10W-60 has a JASO rating that might suit it.

So, let's see some actual specs on that goo or a link where it's for sale, so we can find them, OK?

[axman88]

your UCE's finicky clutch might object unless that 10W-60 has a JASO rating that might suit it.

So, let's see some actual specs on that goo or a link where it's for sale, so we can find them, OK?

My UCE has never been treated to any oil with a JASO rating, including at least one that contained reasonably high portions of Molybdenum disulfide and/or other friction modifiers, and hasn't shown any tendency towards a slippery clutch.  I'm convinced that the JASO rating is mainly just a marketing scam, a motorhead version of the Good Housekeeping seal of approval.  JASO certification isn't something that just happens because of the way the oil is formulated.  It requires that the manufacture pay the JASO institution to have the testing performed.  They don't do that if their intention is to market the stuff with pictures of pickup trucks and diesel rigs on the jug, which is probably true of most of volume of the heavier viscosity oils consumed these days.

One wonders how many of the very few accounts one hears where a rider reports, "I used a non-JASO rated oil and my clutch started to slip", didn't involve extenuating circumstances, like, "I changed my oil and also my clutch cable", or "I loaned my bike to my brother in law and he changed my oil for me, and returned the bike a few weeks later, and afterwards, the clutch slipped and my saddlebag smelled like weed and fish tacos".

However, the Bilgemaster's advice is sound, ..   it is prudent to do some research and avoid those oils with very high contents of friction modifiers, or those that have actually had documented issues, if you ride a bike with a single lubricant for engine and wet clutch.

But how did he know the OP has a UCE?  Super slippery oil could be very happy in an IB or AVL engine.

[Bilgemaster]

To answer your question, I had to look at his past postings to learn he had one of those nice 2020 Trials Bullets.

[Richard230]

I tend to agree with axman88 regarding JASO. I too have always thought it was a marketing scheme to squeeze money out of unsuspecting motorcycle owners. 

During the late 1970's Arco marketed a conventional oil packed full of graphite, which was supposed to make the oil very slippery. I used that oil in several of my Japanese motorcycles, including a Honda 550 and 750, without a hint of clutch slippage. However, the oil, even when new, was completely a grayish-black. While that didn't bother me, having black oil come out of the can was likely what caused most people not to buy the oil, leading to its demise and another oil marketing disaster. Personally, I thought it was a good oil, but my opinion just wasn't enough to keep it on the market. 

[zimmemr]

I'll third the argument against worrying about JASO ratings. I've run garden variety Mobil 1 in all of my Hinkley Triumphs, 13 of them over the years, without any issues. Likewise I've been using it in my RE Himalayan since the first oil change with no problems, and will probably switch my Interceptor over at the next oil change.

During my dirt track years I used Valvoline Racing in all my four stroke/wet clutch engines with zero problems and it's worth noting that Rotax recommend using Valvoline Racing (non JASO/MA ) straight 60 weight in their engines. Again I never had any issues on those motors or their clutches. I think it's also worth mentioning that prior to the advent of motorcycle specific oils every wet clutch bike out there ran off the shelf oil without problems. Granted todays bikes make a lot more power, but the clutches with some exceptions, are little changed from the ones they were using in the 60's or 70's.

It's my understanding and I'm sure someone out there will weigh in if I'm misinformed that the whole "slipping clutch if you use the wrong oil" came about because the metric manufactures, primarily Yamaha were concerned that using oil labeled "energy efficient" or whatever, Might possibly create clutch slippage due to the high percentage of friction modifiers they use. Whether they ever tested their theories by actually testing the oil in their bikes I can't say. 

In my experience, having spoken to several owners that despite the warnings used energy efficient oil in their bikes these concerns are unfounded. To be clear, I'm not saying it should be used, just that all the dire predictions about what might happen are at best anecdotal.

The bottom line here is that just because an oil doesn't carry a JASO/MA rating doesn't make it a bad oil for your bike. And just because it does doesn't necessarily mean it's going to protect your engine better than one that doesn't.

As always you pay your money and you make your choice.

[mangizmo]

Here is my new bike

[Bilgemaster]

Here is my new bike

Nice. Can we see a photo of the oil too?

[Richard230]

Nice. Can we see a photo of the oil too?

How about a discussion about how much synthetic oil is actually in the 15W-50 viscosity semi-synthetic oil as recommended for use in RE motorcycles?   

[mangizmo]

Nice. Can we see a photo of the oil too?

[mangizmo]

How about a discussion about how much synthetic oil is actually in the 15W-50 viscosity semi-synthetic oil as recommended for use in RE motorcycles?   

    Good point, apparently "semi" synthetic can mean any ratio of mineral to synthetic, so surely using fully synthetic must be better as you know what proportion of synthetic (ie 100%) you are putting in the bike

[mangizmo]

   I have 20 Ltrs of fully synthetic 10W 60, Enfield specify 15W 50......I cant decide whether to use it or not ??

     V

[Bilgemaster]

Excerpt from 2020 Bullet Trials Owners Manual, page 17, found at https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1881210/Royal-Enfield-Bullet-Trials-500.html?page=17#manual

"RECOMMENDED LUBRICANTS
Engine Oil Grade 15W50 API SL Engine Oil (JASO MA2)
Capacity 2.75 Ltrs. (First Fill only) 2.30 to 2.50 Ltrs. (during oil & filter element replacement in periodical maintenance"

There appears to be no mention of "synthetic" or "semi-synthetic" as such, at least in that version of the manual.

As far as that "JASO MA2" standard concerning the clutch, while I would concur that in most cases all that JASO business is just an additional costly certification hurdle that oil companies often simply choose not to pay extra for, since it serves absolutely no purpose with their lubes primarily marketed towards 4-wheelers, one should nevertheless probably best avoid any oils in unit construction motorcycles with "ENERGY CONSERVING" or really anything written in the bottom half of those API certification "Donut" labels, such as shown below:

Those "ENERGY CONSERVING" additives are most likely the sort that will definitely bork up one's unit construction clutch, as described in this thread over on the Triumph Rat Net  Forum: https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/api-label-clarity-oil.672226/.

[axman88]

That looks like good stuff.  I'm not seeing any readily apparent oil analysis results but there's no mention of "high efficiency" or "high mileage" in the marketing language that would suggest it's got a lot of friction modifier chemicals in it.  https://www.exol-lubricants.com/assets/data-docs/tds-new/Optima-Sport-10W-60-M482.pdf

I'm no expert, but it seems like those high mileage oils are generally in the 30 weight and lighter viscosities.  A 60 weight is a quite heavy oil to be expecting fuel economy from.  JASO MA testing includes testing for certain friction parameters that would be a lot more difficult to home brew.  Also probably difficult to locate Exol numbers for that Optima Sport 10W-60.  Here's a little info on JASO specs:  https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php

I'd still be favoring my suggestion of custom blending my own mix, by combining with a compatible lighter viscosity oil.  A home viscosity test isn't that hard to improvise.

[zimmemr]

Excerpt from 2020 Bullet Trials Owners Manual, page 17, found at https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1881210/Royal-Enfield-Bullet-Trials-500.html?page=17#manual

"RECOMMENDED LUBRICANTS
Engine Oil Grade 15W50 API SL Engine Oil (JASO MA2)
Capacity 2.75 Ltrs. (First Fill only) 2.30 to 2.50 Ltrs. (during oil & filter element replacement in periodical maintenance"

There appears to be no mention of "synthetic" or "semi-synthetic" as such, at least in that version of the manual.

As far as that "JASO MA2" standard concerning the clutch, while I would concur that in most cases all that JASO business is just an additional costly certification hurdle that oil companies often simply choose not to pay extra for, since it serves absolutely no purpose with their lubes primarily marketed towards 4-wheelers, one should nevertheless probably best avoid any oils in unit construction motorcycles with "ENERGY CONSERVING" or really anything written in the bottom half of those API certification "Donut" labels, such as shown below:

Those "ENERGY CONSERVING" additives are most likely the sort that will definitely bork up one's unit construction clutch, as described in this thread over on the Triumph Rat Net  Forum: https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/api-label-clarity-oil.672226/.

One major issue with the use of Energy Conserving oils is that the viscosity ranges tend to be unsuitable for air cooled motorcycle use. I'd think that using a 5W30 in an engine spece'd for 15W50 would create far worse issues than clutch slip. 

[Bilgemaster]

From what I can discern, while it may not be "optimal" for your bike, it likely wouldn't do it any lasting harm either, particularly in very warm weather or with lots of stop & go or mountain driving where it might be getting a tad "torrid". Still, if that 20 liter fleet service tub were still unopened and mine, and I had a UCE, I might try to reach out to someone with a BMW M Series car that calls for precisely that unusual and normally pricey 10W60 brew via craigslist or similar, and work out some kind of sale or trade for just what the manual prescribes. On the other hand, that thick goop might also do the trick squeezing out a couple-few thousand miles from some real clunker, or at least quiet down its unholy valve or rod knockings long enough to sell it...😈 I'm sure my ancient Durango "tow beast" with near 200,000 miles on the clock would lap up that goo and ask for more.

[mangizmo]

  I am assuming that the sump guard/bash plate will need to come off to change the oil ?

[Karl Fenn]

Well l just hope the oil they refill the 650 with at service with is not semi synthetic, god knows they charge enough for it, and there was poor old me thinking it was the best oil on the planet.

[Richard230]

Well l just hope the oil they refill the 650 with at service with is not semi synthetic, god knows they charge enough for it, and there was poor old me thinking it was the best oil on the planet.

My Royal Enfield/KTM dealer uses nothing but expensive 15W-50 imported Swiss semi-synthetic oil.

My BMW dealer uses slightly less expensive semi-synthetic BMW 15W-50 oil for their "legacy" models and slightly more expensive BMW 5W-40 full-synthetic oil manufactured from natural gas for their newest models. They don't mention if it is refined from naturally-aspirated Bavarian sauerkraut, sausage and beer German farts or something else. 

[mangizmo]

  I am assuming that the sump guard/bash plate will need to come off to change the oil ?

No it hinges down by just removing 2 bolts

[AzCal Retred]

About $23 for 5 quarts: 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-Advanced-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-15W-50-5-Quart/20713647?wmlspartner=wlpa

My guess is that any major US brand of 10W-40, 15W-50, or 20W-50 is far better than whatever juice they came with from India. Certainly better than any oils from the 1940's when the Pre-Unit Bullet saw daylight, and definitely better than the 1960's oils that were about when Honda started selling machines by the tens of thousands that used common oil for the clutch, gearbox & engine. Engines that in most cases ran the cam bearing surfaces directly on the raw aluminum of the head. I have seen few Honda's that couldn't crack 50K miles with proper maintenance, and many that had over 100K.

B.W.'s recent experience with the cam followers in an Electra going belly up & eating the nose off of the cam is likely more about a possible factory defect in the follower or improper valve clearances than a direct lubrication failure. We're awash in good oils, but there's only so much even the best oil can do. Keep clean decent quality oil in your beast & change it often.

The only real slickum-voodoo juice I've ever seen actually work is the "Lucas TB Zinc Plus", which just as Bilgemaster says cuts the valve adjustments way down in the Pre-Unit Bullet, so it definitely is doing something. Sadly it probably wouldn't be a good plan for the wet clutches in the lighter-weight modern unitized construction "common oil supply" designs. But for dry-clutch designs it would likely be beneficial.

[Richard230]

I just saw a YouTube ad for STP "ceramic" oil from the company that made the really thick oil "improver" years ago that you could put in your American junker and it would make it purr like a kitten. The stuff that would take 30 minutes to come out of the pint can.    I had no idea the were still around. 

[Bilgemaster]

About $23 for 5 quarts: 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-Advanced-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-15W-50-5-Quart/20713647

[...Snip!...]

The only real slickum-voodoo juice I've ever seen actually work is the "Lucas TB Zinc Plus", which just as Bilgemaster says cuts the valve adjustments way down in the Pre-Unit Bullet, so it definitely is doing something. Sadly it probably wouldn't be a good plan for the wet clutches in the lighter-weight modern unitized construction "common oil supply" designs. But for dry-clutch designs it would likely be beneficial.

That Mobil1 15W50 with about 2 ounces of the Lucas TB Zinc goop is exactly what my "Iron Belly" seems to adore. About 13,000 miles into that cocktail, on Ace's suggestion here made ages ago, and still not the slightest adjustment has been necessary to my flat tappets, which I do check from time to time. So, while I would recommend it unreservedly for Iron Barrels, I cannot say it would be suitable for UCE engines. Then again, I'm not saying it wouldn't be. That Lucas stuff would  almost certainly serve as a fine assembly lube whatever the engine, which is what many use it for.

[Richard230]

That Mobil1 15W50 with about 2 ounces of the Lucas TB Zinc goop is exactly what my "Iron Belly" seems to adore. About 13,000 miles into that cocktail, on Ace's suggestion here made ages ago, and still not the slightest adjustment has been necessary to my flat tappets, which I do check from time to time. So, while I would recommend it unreservedly for Iron Barrels, I cannot say it would be suitable for UCE engines. Then again, I'm not saying it wouldn't be. That Lucas stuff would  almost certainly serve as a fine assembly lube whatever the engine, which is what many use it for.

I have never heard of Lucas TB Zinc additive, although my local auto accessory store carries many of their products. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that it is banned in California - just like a lot of other useful common chemicals that we used for years in the past. They are all deadly poisons now and just about anything that can be sold in this state must have a warning of its dangers to any resident of the state brave enough to buy it.

[Bilgemaster]

I have never heard of Lucas TB Zinc additive, although my local auto accessory store carries many of their products. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that it is banned in California - just like a lot of other useful common chemicals that we used for years in the past. They are all deadly poisons now and just about anything that can be sold in this state must have a warning of its dangers to any resident of the state brave enough to buy it.

I just order mine online from Wallyworld, $13.94 with free delivery: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Lucas-Oil-Products-10063-Engine-Break-In-Oil-Additive-Plus-Zinc/44819568 -- enough for several oil changes.

It doesn't seem to be banned in Kalifornia, so you can go ahead and serve it as a dressing over your state's renowned Kale 🥬 (And please also note my astonishment that I do in fact have  a "kale emoji" along with an out of touch geezer's dread that my use of it could well be some bizarre kiddie shorthand that I "enjoy its use in some manner that dare not speak its name", especially when it's all lubed up and glistening with naughty-naughty zinc)

[Richard230]

 I am pretty sure that residents of the San Francisco Bay Area are not allowed to purchase anything from Wally's World as they are not unionized and therefore are banned from doing business here.   

I still remember the riot at city hall in South San Francisco where I worked when years ago Walmart tried to obtain approval to open up a store in the industrial section of the city. You would have thought that the Devil was opening up a recruiting office in town.     Needless to say that their application was roundly rejected by both the city's planning commission and city council.   

[AzCal Retred]

Readily available in the Land 'o Froots, Nutz & Flaques @ Wally Werld, Auto-Zone, Oreilly's, just waltz in & plop down your dinero. Must be good on kale? 

[Richard230]

Readily available in the Land 'o Froots, Nutz & Flaques @ Wally Werld, Auto-Zone, Oreilly's, just waltz in & plop down your dinero. Must be good on kale? 

When I was in Air Force basic training in Texas during 1965, I was part of a group from the SF Bay Area and Hawaii. The other recruits were from Nebraska and referred to us as coming from the land of fruits and nuts. These were the same guys that told us stories of how you could have sexual fun with new born calves and beautiful sheep. (I guess the pickings were slim on the farm in those days. ) Let me tell you, those were some disturbing stories.  We definitely kept to ourselves after that. 

(Is this enough thread drift for you?  )