Author Topic: ABS Removal  (Read 1548 times)

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martinw650

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on: March 26, 2021, 11:57:17 am
Anybody ever done it in a B5/C5?
Or anything else for that matter?


Karl Fenn

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Reply #1 on: March 26, 2021, 12:08:15 pm
Done a BMW but you can't remove after certain date now ifs illegal won't pass MOT.


Nitrowing

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Reply #2 on: March 26, 2021, 01:53:13 pm
Done a BMW but you can't remove after certain date now ifs illegal won't pass MOT.

 :o wow - I'm seriously not impressed with that!
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


Richard230

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Reply #3 on: March 26, 2021, 02:11:55 pm
Done a BMW but you can't remove after certain date now ifs illegal won't pass MOT.

Will removing the seat of a BMW and installing a horse saddle pass the MOT?   ;D
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martinw650

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Reply #4 on: March 26, 2021, 02:41:53 pm
I've had a look through the MOT guide for class 1 and 2 vehicles, and not seeing anywhere where ABS is checked as being fitted.


viczena

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Reply #5 on: March 26, 2021, 03:35:52 pm
In the EU every motorcycle beyond 125ccm has to have an ABS. Since 2016.

If Britton did not change that law with their Brexit, this law is still valid.

Insurances will definitely resume to pay for a crash, if you removed the ABS.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 03:40:43 pm by viczena »
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johno

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Reply #6 on: March 28, 2021, 11:14:07 pm
In the EU every motorcycle beyond 125ccm has to have an ABS. Since 2016.

If Britton did not change that law with their Brexit, this law is still valid.

Insurances will definitely resume to pay for a crash, if you removed the ABS.
Why are you telling someone in the UK your perception of the rules in Britain? it only causes confusion.
Bikes have to be manufactured with ABS but the system is not tested during an annual MOT only that the brakes meet the minimum efficiency requirements that were put in place in around 1972. nor are exhaust emissions (so it does not matter if its euro 1,2,3, 4,5,6 standards) or most other things the EU insist make our lives more controlled. Even the ban on LED bulbs for headlights has been rescinded for motorcycles, as long as the beam pattern iaw Gov and MOT guidance.
The United Kingdom never implemented any rules the EU were trying to dictate where vehicles are concerned, as any changes require statutes in law to be changed by the UK government. it was one of the 'you will obey' and the fines the EU were imposing on the UK for not complying that was another nail in the EU coffin.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 11:21:35 pm by johno »
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martinw650

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Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 07:44:59 am
Thank you.
My thoughts exactly.

There is plenty of other Euro compliance stuff that is also not checked, along with a fair bit of 'Construction & Used legislation. Emissions, lights, exhausts, seats etc are often changed in the UK.

The only issue is insurance, but if the insurer is informed  and agrees to underwrite, it isn't a problem. Depends how enlightened they are. The chances of ABS preventing an accident in a bike like the Classic are tiny, given its weak brakes, wheelbase, weight and likely rider profile.


johno

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Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 09:24:43 am
Insurance is the issue, but this is minor.
it might mean a slight increase in premiums with a main line insurer, but if insured through a specialist that insure custom builds and modified vehicles it shouldn't be a problem.
Even then the NFU will insure anything..........
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Richard230

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Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 02:34:20 pm
From what little I have heard in the U.S., our insurance companies don't bother checking up on a non-injury crashed motorcycle claim. The amount of money involved, compared with modern car crashes, is just not enough to get their attention. They just let a franchised dealership fix the bike and send them the bill, which they pay. They would have no idea what modification were made to the vehicle unless the owner jerked their chain and told them.  If the dealership tells them that the frame is bent or some other damage resulted that "totaled" the bike, they will just send the owner a check and likely have the shop auction off the remains and send them any proceeds. (Although I am not clear about this as I have had friends that had their bikes repaired but not totaled.)

A couple of years ago one of my friends tipped over going around a turn at 25 mph (he said) and his 2013 BMW R1200GS was towed to the local BMW dealer with some broken plastic and a scratched muffler. There it was repaired using official BMW parts for something like $11,000.  :o The dealer sent the insurance company the bill and they paid it without even looking at the bike.  Trusting guys.  ;)
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viczena

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Reply #10 on: March 29, 2021, 02:52:48 pm
You are right. Crashs with injuries are really expensive. And then the insurer does everything not to pay the 500k  cheque for the hospital.

I really do not know how it is in Britton, but in other parts of the world you nil the registration  of your bike if you make these kind of changes. The ABS is part of the registration.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:56:11 pm by viczena »
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #11 on: March 29, 2021, 08:13:33 pm
I can assure you the abs is always checked at MOT they have always checked mine, and tied to on board computer.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #12 on: March 29, 2021, 08:23:30 pm
I just looked at the new MOT regs you are not allowed to remove or disable the abs on new bikes, l think after 2018.


martinw650

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Reply #13 on: March 29, 2021, 08:26:33 pm
I can assure you the abs is always checked at MOT they have always checked mine, and tied to on board computer.
Not really.
If ABS is fitted, They check the light functions correctly, and goes out and stays out.
There's no test if the system function, and there's no test at all if it should be fitted or not.

The MOT guide is available online......have a look.  ;)


johno

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Reply #14 on: March 29, 2021, 08:56:58 pm
or just spend time with the MOT tester.
a couple of years ago year I left my Deauville at an mot test station I had not used before it was a 'modern' facility where your not allowed in the workshop, the bike failed due to the rear disc being warped and an exhaust leak. I took it straight to another old fashioned garage (which is now my go to test station for all vehicles) as it turned out the 'warped' disc was the ABS cutting in causing the juddering in effort seen on the test machine, which a modern garage and so called mechanic should be aware of. I proved this by running a DTI on the disc when I got home, the exhaust leak didn't exist, my Bike has an after market belly pan and the tester couldn't be bothered to check it properly.

ABS is not tested on Motorcycles during an MOT unless by accident. Some test stations still use the pulley and friction mechanism instead of rollers, which will in no way test ABS performance.
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viczena

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Reply #15 on: March 29, 2021, 09:37:08 pm
You might fool MOT by installing a little device that switches the ABS light. Thats an excellent reason for the insurance not to pay after an accident. Because it was not negligent, but an intentional fraud.
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martinw650

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Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 09:47:35 pm
You might fool MOT by installing a little device that switches the ABS light. Thats an excellent reason for the insurance not to pay after an accident. Because it was not negligent, but an intentional fraud.
No need.
Just remove the entire system including the light.


viczena

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Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 10:02:23 pm
Yeah. And when you go to MOT use a candle.
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martinw650

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Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 10:20:33 pm
Yeah. And when you go to MOT use a candle.
:) I think you've misunderstood. I meant the ABS light.


axman88

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Reply #19 on: March 30, 2021, 04:23:06 am
Since we are apparently giving advice for the entire world, based only on our local laws, I can advise you from personal experience, that.

ABS braking isn't required on motorcycles, it's optional.
Motorcycles are NOT required to be inspected, not for safety, not for emissions, not at all, ever.

There's lots of info from folks who have removed ABS systems on various vehicles available on the internet.  In some cases, it's as simple as unplugging the controller.  Do a search starting with the words "removing ABS..".   Find info.   Even step by step U-tube videos, on removing ABS from a BWM motorcycle.

I've discarded about 25lbs of unwanted factory components from my daily driver, a 20+ year old Plymouth.  I'm a Mopar man now.


viczena

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Reply #20 on: March 30, 2021, 07:30:27 am
Yeah, and in the 70s they removed front brakes and indicators. More weight to spare. Find Info. Good old days.
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johno

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Reply #21 on: March 30, 2021, 09:26:01 am
Yeah, and in the 70s they removed front brakes and indicators. More weight to spare. Find Info. Good old days.
The OP's question was about removing ABS on a UK registered bike, not about your opinions (although everyone is entitled to an opinion), which I think that those who use this forum are fully aware of and to be honest are bored with.

My advice would be talk to your MOT tester to find out what there point of view is, that is if they actually care if ABS is fitted or not......
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #22 on: April 03, 2021, 09:52:31 am
I would never buy a bike with ABS, but I have disabled it in my car. It was a simple matter of removing the fuse, blowing it, and putting it back. Yes the light comes on, which does nothing but make me feel good. And I have done plenty of parking lot braking to make sure the brakes work like they should. No inspections in my state (U.S.) but if you have to deal with that, just put a good fuse back in till after the inspection. And if I should be involved in an accident (which certainly won't be because I didn't brake properly, I hold both NHRA and SCCA competition licenses) they have no way of knowing the fuse didn't just blow. Fight government regulations "ANY WAY YOU CAN"
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viczena

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Reply #23 on: April 03, 2021, 09:59:34 am
i think you mean: Fight physics "ANY WAY YOU CAN"
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martinw650

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Reply #24 on: April 03, 2021, 12:39:07 pm
Hot button subject for some, obviously!  ;D



Richard230

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Reply #25 on: April 03, 2021, 02:18:44 pm
I would never buy a bike with ABS, but I have disabled it in my car. It was a simple matter of removing the fuse, blowing it, and putting it back. Yes the light comes on, which does nothing but make me feel good. And I have done plenty of parking lot braking to make sure the brakes work like they should. No inspections in my state (U.S.) but if you have to deal with that, just put a good fuse back in till after the inspection. And if I should be involved in an accident (which certainly won't be because I didn't brake properly, I hold both NHRA and SCCA competition licenses) they have no way of knowing the fuse didn't just blow. Fight government regulations "ANY WAY YOU CAN"

That is very creative.    ;D  Fortunately, my 2011 Bullet had its ABS removed at the factory and replaced with a braking system and Avon Slipmaster II tires that were designed not to lock up.    ;)
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #26 on: April 04, 2021, 12:33:47 pm
Many testers have rolling roads now, l assure you they do test the abs, you are not allowed to have it switched off, the problem you refer to was common on BMW.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #27 on: April 04, 2021, 12:46:14 pm
Well this is what the law says, ABS is now mandatory on all bikes manufactured after 2017 even on 50 cc, it is now a legal requirement to be fitted to all bikes, the ABS must not be turned off for mot testing purposes.


martinw650

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Reply #28 on: April 04, 2021, 12:49:14 pm
Many testers have rolling roads now, l assure you they do test the abs, you are not allowed to have it switched off, the problem you refer to was common on BMW.
There is no test of the ABS system in the MOT, other than the light (if fitted) must not show any faults.

If there's no ABS fitted, how can they test it? Same applies to indicators, pillion pegs etc.

Go and read the guidelines on the gov.uk website.



martinw650

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Reply #29 on: April 04, 2021, 12:52:02 pm
Sigh.

Lots of things are mandatory, yet routinely ignored on things like MOTs.

You're confusing the vehicle construction and resale regulations with whats actually enforced.

Have a look round any bike park and make a list of infringements you see.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #30 on: April 04, 2021, 01:14:05 pm
Well they are now talking about making abs training as part of your motocycle training in order to get licence all the mot 's have changed since 2018 the abs check light is a requirement and subject to test, why exactly you need abs training on a fully computer controled systems is nonsensical because you have no control over it, the computer replaces the brain. Yet another thieving money racket.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #31 on: April 04, 2021, 01:50:03 pm
Well of course with all this EU involvement everything was destined for a corrupted money grab, our own government are just as bad on the score, most abs systems are not fit for purpose the only thing the do is make the EU rich most parts are made there.


Keef Sparrow

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Reply #32 on: April 04, 2021, 01:50:30 pm
Sigh.

Lots of things are mandatory, yet routinely ignored on things like MOTs.

You're confusing the vehicle construction and resale regulations with whats actually enforced.

Have a look round any bike park and make a list of infringements you see.
I think you will find that many riders put their bikes back to 'stock' just for the MOT, and once they've got their 'ticket' back on go the aftermarket noisy silencers, small number plates, etc while other parts needed for the MOT will be taken off again. Some car drivers do the same.
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #33 on: April 04, 2021, 01:53:43 pm
Yea but many of these laws come from the corrupted EU, and a band of deciples they allow to operate in this country that's a fact.


viczena

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Reply #34 on: April 04, 2021, 01:55:41 pm
ABS was popular long before the EU created the law. Because it is really useful. I have several friends who sold their bikes just to get a newer one with ABS.

Modern ABS like the Bosch M9 work flawlessly.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 01:59:32 pm by viczena »
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martinw650

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Reply #35 on: April 04, 2021, 03:43:31 pm
I think you will find that many riders put their bikes back to 'stock' just for the MOT, and once they've got their 'ticket' back on go the aftermarket noisy silencers, small number plates, etc while other parts needed for the MOT will be taken off again. Some car drivers do the same.
Same trap.

I'm not talking about the MOT. I'm referring to breaches of the regs governing manufacture and sale of motor vehicles.
Some things which would be 'illegal' to sell on a vehicle when new, are never checked thereafter. Lots of mods fall into this category.

Unlike, I believe, on other countries like Japan, Germany and Switzerland.


Richard230

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Reply #36 on: April 04, 2021, 07:25:38 pm
Same trap.

I'm not talking about the MOT. I'm referring to breaches of the regs governing manufacture and sale of motor vehicles.
Some things which would be 'illegal' to sell on a vehicle when new, are never checked thereafter. Lots of mods fall into this category.

Unlike, I believe, on other countries like Japan, Germany and Switzerland.

That is certainly the case in most states in the U.S. The manufacturers and retail dealers must toe the line or get hit with big fines, while their customers can get away with just about any modifications without any consequences.
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viczena

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Reply #37 on: April 04, 2021, 07:34:54 pm
Yep. As long as you dont live in the people republic of California. Or soon in Bidens republic of America.
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #38 on: April 04, 2021, 09:37:26 pm
Well he's running the show now, Trump had to take a back seat he's no longer driving.


Richard230

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Reply #39 on: April 04, 2021, 10:59:38 pm
Yep. As long as you dont live in the people republic of California. Or soon in Bidens republic of America.

Surprisingly California still does not have any yearly motorcycle inspections of any sort, unlike how car owners get screwed over with expensive every other year emission inspections. You pay for the emissions testing and then pay more for a state electronic "certificate" certifying that you have been tested. My car is 22 years old and has never shown much in the way of emissions, maybe only about 5% of which is allowed by the state. And now that it is over 20 years old, my understanding is that I will now have to pay more to get my car tested as it has an old type of computer connection that requires a special state program to access at an additional cost. What a racket!   >:(  Apparently what the state would really like you to do is to junk your perfectly good car and buy a new and very expensive SUV with all of the electronic gadgets that do nothing to make the vehicle work or drive better.  ::)
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Keef Sparrow

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Reply #40 on: April 05, 2021, 12:42:45 am
Apparently what the state would really like you to do is to junk your perfectly good car and buy a new and very expensive SUV with all of the electronic gadgets that do nothing to make the vehicle work or drive better.  ::)
The situation in the UK is much the same. You used to see plenty of old cars on the roads here - rusty old classics (and British Leyland shitheaps too) and if you could still find the parts and/or could patch up or weld the bodywork you could keep old cars going for twenty or thirty years. These days thousands of perfectly serviceable low mileage cars well under ten years old are effectively legislated off the roads and scrapped while they still have many miles and years of life left in them - no rust and still mechanically sound. Are we really 'saving the environment' by scrapping so many perfectly good vehicles and replacing them with newly manufactured ones from factories churning out even more pollution? Or are we doing it just to keep 'the system' going and continue to line the pockets of those at the top?
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johno

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Reply #41 on: April 05, 2021, 08:33:17 am
UK Mot testers guide for motorcycle brake tests and the different methods of testing, As said, no mention of ABS here. So it is a case of misinformation and trying to force a point that is not valid.
 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-motorcycles/1-brakes
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viczena

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Reply #42 on: April 05, 2021, 10:09:46 am
You missed point 1.1.10 in the mot:
"(a) Brake servo:

(i) defective or ineffective Major
(ii) inoperative" Dangerous

ABS is a brake servo.

And 1.1.21
(d) Braking system component modification:

(i) unsafe Major
(ii) adversely affecting braking performance   Dangerous

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martinw650

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Reply #43 on: April 05, 2021, 10:22:20 am
I give up.

 :-X


johno

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Reply #44 on: April 05, 2021, 03:58:05 pm
I give up.

 :-X
With you on that!
even with the guidance and local experience viczena thinks ABS is a servo and still thinks he's right what a donut!
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viczena

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Reply #45 on: April 05, 2021, 04:09:33 pm
An ABS is a servo. Try to engage it and you will feel that it provides more braking pressure to the pads than you will ever be able to provide with your brake levers.

Bikes with traction control use the ABS servo for controlling the torque on the back wheel.
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Richard230

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Reply #46 on: April 05, 2021, 10:42:06 pm
With you on that!
even with the guidance and local experience viczena thinks ABS is a servo and still thinks he's right what a donut!

Well, for a short time during the early 2000's BMW did have a touring model or two with ABS servo brakes. They were uniformly hated by their riders as they braked too abruptly and when the engine was off there was almost no braking force available, which led to more than one owner crashing his bike when it got away from him while pushing it up or down a hill.  :(  That was the end of that experiment.  ;)
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #47 on: April 06, 2021, 02:05:29 am
To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.
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gizzo

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Reply #48 on: April 06, 2021, 03:43:25 am
To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.

Come on, just admit that you're set in your ways and you fear change. ABS isn't going to kill you. Neither will fuel injection or electronic ignition or tubeless tyres. I'm with you on rejecting overregulation (I was having a conversation with my sister yesterday about my latest crash. She said "they" ought to do something like put up signs or barriers to make it safer and she couldn't accept my point of view that if people aren't being idiots, they don't crash there so leave it as it is. Let people have some responsibility for their actions. But I digress) but your posts have a "loud pipes save lives" vibe to them. And they're becoming repetitive.
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Antipodean Andrew

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Reply #49 on: April 06, 2021, 05:08:39 am
I'm a fan of ABS. I know how to progressively brake and practice this always, but I also make mistakes and it's great to have a backup. As a shift worker I often ride in a less than alert state and having a little technology on hand to help out is a bonus.


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Reply #50 on: April 06, 2021, 02:10:37 pm
I'm a fan of ABS. I know how to progressively brake and practice this always, but I also make mistakes and it's great to have a backup. As a shift worker I often ride in a less than alert state and having a little technology on hand to help out is a bonus.

I like to see day to day reality come through as the context of motorcycling. The foundation of the old brands was a practical range of models.

I'm lost here. Doesn't a carburetor 'control' the fueling of the motorcycle? And brakes, don't they control the braking? My CGT is an excellent stopper because of disk brakes and light weight. But, particularly on a heavier and taller machine I welcome the ABS. Survival in a world of hostile drivers and uncontrolled circumstances makes the use of ABS a plus for me.
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viczena

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Reply #51 on: April 06, 2021, 03:03:11 pm
To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.

What are you using to writer these posts? Pencil and paper? And how is it delivered? By snail mail?
And how do you know how to repair your bike if sth goes wrong? By travelling to an expert to get a personal explanation?
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axman88

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Reply #52 on: April 06, 2021, 06:05:24 pm
ABS isn't going to kill you.
I don't have much of an ax to grind in this argument.  I avoid ABS because of the complexity that it adds, specifically because I tend to drive very old, very cheap vehicles, and these almost always require all brake lines and some hoses to be replaced as step one.   The last thing I want is to also be replacing expensive sensors and modulators.

But, it seems that at least some studies do report persistent, statistically significant issues with ABS vs. non ABS equipped vehicles.

For example, trom this study:   https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

    Fatal run-off-road crashes increase with ABS by a statistically significant 9 percent in
cars (confidence bounds: 3% to 15% increase).
    On wet, snowy, or icy roads, where ABS is most likely to activate, the increase in fatal
run-off-road crashes is a statistically significant 34 percent in passenger cars (confidence
bounds: 20% to 50% increase). On these roads, all three types of fatal run-off-road
crashes increase significantly for cars and so do fatal rollovers of LTVs.
    Side impacts with fixed objects generally increase even more with ABS than other types
of run-off-road crashes (except for LTV fatalities). Fatal and nonfatal crashes both
increase significantly for passenger cars.
    The statistical analyses continue to show persistent, significant increases in run-off-road
crashes with ABS, especially on wet roads.


Data from cars is much more readily available, than data from motorcycles.  I would admit that the vehicles are different, but the principles of the systems, and the system failure modes are shared.  This data from cars is relevant to the issue of whether ABS can injure as well as protect.    So, although generally it's agreed that ABS does reduce fatalities over all, it does seem like ABS CAN kill you, and has perhaps already killed people.

Here's a story where an owner claimed that malfunctioning ABS led his daughter to go off the road and hit a tree:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1998/04-24/0035_car_forum__anti-lock_brakes_causi.html

Here's a story where a sheriffs deputy rear ended vehicles repeatedly at stops, allegedly due to a malfunctioning ABS system:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1995/05-05/336080_car_care__antilock_brakes.html

And another law enforcement officer, going off the road and hitting a tree, again allegedly due to malfunctioning ABS, and mention of another officer who actually DID die, perhaps due to malfunctioning ABS brakes:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1991/10-21/236456_photo_by_general_motors_mysteri.html

Maybe these studies and accounts are old and the technology has been perfected since?  I am not an expert in this, but it seems like there is more than one side to the story, based on the literature.

There's more than one law firm in my country, that is making bank by prosecuting manufacturers when people have accidents that MAY have resulted from ABS system failure.  https://www.levininjuryfirm.com/abs-failures-can-lead-serious-accidents/  What a crummy way to get rich!



viczena

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Reply #53 on: April 06, 2021, 07:56:36 pm
Your study is from 2009. When ABS was not finally developed and still in first development state for motorcycles.

1991 Chevy Caprice (30 years ago)
1995 brake malfunction
1992 GMC Safari Brake malfunction


They all declare  malfunctioning ABS. But maybe it was just human error. Or bad brake (car) design.

Have you got some anti-ABS info from the last 10 years?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 08:04:41 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #54 on: April 06, 2021, 10:10:34 pm
Your study is from 2009. When ABS was not finally developed and still in first development state for motorcycles.

1991 Chevy Caprice (30 years ago)
1995 brake malfunction
1992 GMC Safari Brake malfunction


They all declare  malfunctioning ABS. But maybe it was just human error. Or bad brake (car) design.

Have you got some anti-ABS info from the last 10 years?
I do not, but it should be simple for YOU to find some pertinent studies and post them to support your position.


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Reply #55 on: April 06, 2021, 10:21:28 pm
My recollection is that BMW first installed ABS on their K-bike models in 1989? While it worked, it definitely didn't cycle the brakes very fast. Computers have become a lot faster now and the systems work much better. But so far I have never felt the ABS on my three motorcycles that have it kick in. So far it has not been of much of a benefit to me. Just initial extra cost, some additional weight, hose routing complexity and a substantial extra cost for a dealer to replace the brake fluid every couple of years. With my non-ABS models, I can replace the brake fluid in 30 minutes in my garage at a cost of only about $6 for the new fluid.  :)
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Reply #56 on: April 07, 2021, 12:17:06 am

But, it seems that at least some studies do report persistent, statistically significant issues with ABS vs. non ABS equipped vehicles.

For example, trom this study:   https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

    Fatal run-off-road crashes increase with ABS by a statistically significant 9 percent in
cars (confidence bounds: 3% to 15% increase).
    On wet, snowy, or icy roads, where ABS is most likely to activate, the increase in fatal
run-off-road crashes is a statistically significant 34 percent in passenger cars (confidence
bounds: 20% to 50% increase). On these roads, all three types of fatal run-off-road
crashes increase significantly for cars and so do fatal rollovers of LTVs.
    Side impacts with fixed objects generally increase even more with ABS than other types
of run-off-road crashes (except for LTV fatalities). Fatal and nonfatal crashes both
increase significantly for passenger cars.
    The statistical analyses continue to show persistent, significant increases in run-off-road
crashes with ABS, especially on wet roads.


Data from cars is much more readily available, than data from motorcycles.  I would admit that the vehicles are different, but the principles of the systems, and the system failure modes are shared.  This data from cars is relevant to the issue of whether ABS can injure as well as protect.    So, although generally it's agreed that ABS does reduce fatalities over all, it does seem like ABS CAN kill you, and has perhaps already killed people.


That reminds me of a study i skimmed through a few years ago by an Australian university concerning motorbike protective gear. They followed maybe 2000 riders for some period of time and gathered accident data from them. At the end of the study a certain percentage had been in crashes and some had died. One of the findings of that study (iirc) was that back protectors featured quite highly in fatal crashes. The study quite rightly put that down to the fact that someone who wears a back protector is likely to push harder and therefore have a worse crash. Not that back protectors cause injuries in crashes.
Protective gear giving more confidence, same as those ABS incidents.
People maybe rely on it too much as a first line of defence, or a bandaid to excuse lack of talent. ABS is great, but you still ought to be able to operate a vehicle without it.
Its like my hang-gliding instructor said: your reserve parachute isn't a second chance. It's your LAST chance. You're better off developing the skills to not need to use it in the first place. But it's nice to have when you run out of options.
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viczena

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Reply #57 on: April 07, 2021, 06:22:23 am
Every motorcycle rider ought to be able to operate a vehicle without ABS. It is called braking.

The ABS comes to play, when the wheels are blocking. This is due to loss of grip on the pavement. Ice, sand, wet, repaired asphalt.... When you have to to have an emergency brake. Full power.

In this situation you have to release the front brake quickly. If not, you will fall within 2 sec. Thats a very small corridor. You may train that. But how? For that purpose you have to get to the point of blocking your front wheel, without crashing your bike in the process. And behind it. That will not be possible without ABS. Without crashing the bike.

If you are willing to pay big cash for motorcycle parts, it is absolutely possible to train emergency braking without ABS.

I do not know anybody who uses ABS to drive reckless or with more risc. And an ABS does not help if you are not talented. It helps when things go sideways.

When parachuting nobody comes into your way, surprises you by abruptly changing lanes or making a turn in front of you. There are much less idiots surrounding you, playing with their smartphones. That is more like driving on an empty interstate all of your life.

And even professional racers on a closed racetrack die from an accident with a blocked front wheel. I witnessed it.

And most risky driving maneuvres have absolutely nothing to to with ABS: https://movies.gaskrank.tv/201608/28224.mp4
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 06:53:33 am by viczena »
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viczena

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Reply #58 on: April 07, 2021, 06:24:03 am
I do not, but it should be simple for YOU to find some pertinent studies and post them to support your position.

I dont need studies. I know from personal experience that ABS works. And what happens with a bike without ABS.

But because you like historics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF6THyT0oDM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6hoslMf36I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijJouHoDjQU

In the last video you see a side by side braking of ABS/non ABS. 1:18

There is an excemption. Offroad driving. When you stand downhill with a 800pound motorcycle you dont want the front brake to open when you need your front brake to stay locked. While the rear wheel moves. Or vice versa.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 07:13:22 am by viczena »
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Reply #59 on: April 07, 2021, 08:52:50 am
I think there is some jealousy here everyone else in the world can remove or disable ABS or have it operational as a choice.
Poor old Europeans HAVE to have it by law............ Ja Vicenza?
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viczena

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Reply #60 on: April 07, 2021, 08:59:56 am
Aux contraire mon chere. Most of my friends sold their bikes just to get a newer one with ABS. Bikes without ABS loose value in rapid pace.

If there were an ABS retrofit package that you could install on older bikes (and get a registation, ABE..) it would sell better than any other accessory on the market.

If you dont want your ABS, just pull the fuse. And then feel like the mega tuning-king. Who shoved it to the merciless regulations.
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Reply #61 on: April 07, 2021, 10:24:28 am
And this thread shows the problem with human beings. Faced with any issue, the very cohesiveness necessary for our survival, mitigates against becoming a contented and stable emulsion.
The kingdom of false dichotomies, ruled over by the straw king.


Ove

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Reply #62 on: April 07, 2021, 10:48:07 am
Eh, do you mean we enjoy a good argument?  :)


martinw650

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Reply #63 on: April 07, 2021, 11:03:19 am
Eh, do you mean we enjoy a good argument?  :)
Yes.
If by 'good' you mean 'bad'.
And if by 'argument' you mean 'polarised shouting competition'.
And if by 'enjoy' you mean 'fulfill an obsessive need driven by obsolete biological mechanisms'.

Yay humans!  ;D


Guaire

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Reply #64 on: April 07, 2021, 02:08:50 pm
Aux contraire mon chere. Most of my friends sold their bikes just to get a newer one with ABS. Bikes without ABS loose value in rapid pace.

If there were an ABS retrofit package that you could install on older bikes (and get a registation, ABE..) it would sell better than any other accessory on the market.

If you dont want your ABS, just pull the fuse. And then feel like the mega tuning-king. Who shoved it to the merciless regulations.

That makes me think of the Honda ST1100 and the BMW K bikes. Both of them started production as non ABS. Then in later models of the same bikes, ABS was added.
  On forums of both those bikes, I have never read of anyone removing their ABS on those bikes.
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Reply #65 on: April 07, 2021, 03:31:18 pm
You jest, no.?
Bmw forums have whole sections on how to remove the abs systems. Especially the servo ones.
Early ones had about six or eight bleed points.
My present R1200GSA has NO abs as requested by me from the factory.
Wouldn't have abs on a bike if you paid me. Just my personal preference.
Off route, recalculate?


viczena

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Reply #66 on: April 07, 2021, 04:32:59 pm
The old servo BMW is something  special. These ABS pumps are very expensive, even as a return unit. And they cost often more than the bike value. So there is a need to completely get rid of servo, ABS etc to be able to drive these old horses some more years. There is a german distributor who sells exchange units that have all the electrics but no pumps. And they seem to get the approval of the MOT (TÜV). Most off these old ABS get  broken because the owners did not change the internal brake fluids for decades and never did an electronic reset-flush with them.

Modern BMW have the same ABS as mostly everybody else, the Bosch M9. A small, compact and cheap unit. Also used in the Royal Enfields.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:30:32 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #67 on: April 07, 2021, 05:03:19 pm
Bikes without ABS loose value in rapid pace.

If there were an ABS retrofit package that you could install on older bikes (and get a registation, ABE..) it would sell better than any other accessory on the market.
I can't say if the depreciation issue that you claim is true where you live, and you offer no support for your statement, but I don't believe this is at all true here in the USA.  Of course, ABS is not currently required on new motorcycles in the USA, but is available as an option on many.  Cosmetic condition is a far larger component of value, here in the USA, in my opinion.  If and when ABS is required, and is recognized by insurers in the form of reduced premiums, perhaps what you say will become true.

I am dubious that a safety / legal compliance related accessory would be a big money maker here in the USA, where the top selling aftermarket items are (loud) exhausts and add-on ECU modifier gadgets.  Both of these items, incidently, often being sold with the disclaimer,   "legal ... only for racing vehicles which may never be used, registered or licensed for use upon a highway."

My point in my last posting was NOT that ABS is not generally beneficial, especially to beginners and less skilled riders.  I believe it is.  My point was that failure of ABS systems can, and likely has, caused injury and perhaps death.  Certainly there are also many cases where ABS has been beneficial, as per the links you posted.  Testimonials are not statistical evidence.  Statistical evidence supports a general conclusion, that ABS is, in general, a benefit, even in the old studies, and this is why ABS has increasingly been adopted.

I don't personally care for ABS systems, because its presence negatively affects reliability and substantially increases repair costs.  ABS braking systems contain all the elements of a conventional hydraulic system.  Master and wheel cylinders can fail, hydraulic lines can leak, and fluid can become corrupted and cause internal corrosion in both ABS and non-ABS systems.  But ABS systems also contain additional sensors, electrical wiring, connectors, pumps, valves, and electronic controller, all of which can and do fail.  All these additional failure modes exist on top of base reliability issues with a conventional hydraulic system.  If parts aren't present, they can't cause problems, and I don't need to spend money fixing them.
 
The million+ vehicles recalled for ABS system defects confirms this point:
     https://www.torquenews.com/3769/ford-recalls-600000-vehicles-keep-brakes-failing-due-sticking-valve
     https://www.carprousa.com/Hyundai-&-Kia-Fire-Risk-Recall-Expanded/a/1593
     https://www.motorsafety.org/tag/hyundai-anti-lock-brake-recall/
     https://newyork.legalexaminer.com/transportation/nissan-implements-third-recall-of-400000-vehicles-due-to-abs-issues/
     https://motorsportsnewswire.com/2020/08/10/indian-motorcycle-recall-of-certain-scout-motorcycles-equipped-with-anti-lock-brake-systems/
     https://www.consumerreports.org/recalls/harley-davidson-motorcycle-recall-brakes-abs/
     


viczena

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Reply #68 on: April 07, 2021, 05:13:12 pm
Only one time you dont fall because the ABS safes you, and you safe more money than any ABS related cost will ever be. Injuries not even counted.

ABS systems are built in billions. They are standard everyday technology now.  As long as you change the brake fluid AND reset the ABS after doing it, you will have no problems. Your bike examples (Harley/Indian) were exactly this problem.

Three of the four examples with cars are for fire hazard. Not for improper working ABS.

The last car example was for improper brake fluid. ABS systems rely on DOT4. Ford put DOT3 caps onto their brake reservoirs.

You can always get a recall. Even for a simple and stupid thing like a Royal Enfield brake caliper. With "Bybre" written on it. I never had any issue with any vehicle with original Brembo calipers. In salt, bad weather, off road. From light offroad bike to 600kg V8 bike.

ABS is good for every motorcycle rider,  especially for the "experienced" one. The novices are over-cautious.

Novices often look for good weather and good road condition, the experienced one drives whenever and wherever he wants.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 05:38:11 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #69 on: April 07, 2021, 06:31:34 pm
Three of the four examples with cars are for fire hazard. Not for improper working ABS.
The report says:  "problems with the antilock brake system, which may result in an electrical short and vehicle fire."  A major component catching fire is improper working.  If the ABS controller catches fire, that is a reliability issue that CAN occur with an ABS equipped vehicle, that CANNOT occur if this controller is not present on a non ABS equipped vehicle.

Ignoring statistical data from focused studies on the subject changes nothing.  Ignoring market realities and legislative environments in countries other than your own, changes nothing.  You think ABS is good and are willing to pay for it and have expressed your opinion.  Others disagree, for various reasons, some of which are well documented.

But none of this is really relevant, the Original Poster asked about removing an ABS system, something which has been done many times, by many people, to their satisfaction.  Ignoring those reports, forum threads and videos, to express your personal opinions, does not address the OP's question.  Neither do my most recent posts, although my first was fairly squarely to the point.


viczena

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Reply #70 on: April 07, 2021, 06:36:07 pm
There was a leak of brake fluid around the ABS that ignited fire over time by eating up the insulation of wires. So what? Can happen with every brake line.

I do not ignore your reports. I am just reading them. And understand them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 06:38:21 pm by viczena »
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Reply #71 on: April 08, 2021, 07:09:28 am
I have made my opinion clear. I am not the only one with the same opinion. Here is a comment I found on a review of Honda's newest Goldwing. It echo's my feelings exactly.

"If you are looking for a MOTORCYCLE, you need to look to the past. If you are looking for a COMPUTER that just happens to have wheels on it, the Honda probably has what you are looking for. But why would you want it? Motorcycles are ceasing to exist right before our eyes, and nobody is noticing. It started with EFI, then Cat Con exhausts, then ABS, then all manner of electronic "rider aids" (I don't need no God damn rider aids) now cruise control (not a throttle lock, but actual computerized cruise control) Next will come some kind of computerized gyroscopic system that will not allow the bike to fall over. That already exists, it was used in the fortunately ill fated Segway. Then will come brakes that apply themselves if the computer senses something ahead, and steering that will automatically move the bike in a different direction if a COMPUTER decides evasive action is required. Then there will be a touch screen or voice recognition computer on the bike. When you get on, you will either type in an address or use voice control to enter the address, and the bike will take you there, without a single control input from the passenger. Notice I said passenger. That's because riders will no longer exist. Their skills and experience will no longer be needed, and will fade away. You will no longer be able to make decisions or take risks. In short, you will no longer be a human being. You will be the slave of a computer"
"I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker"
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viczena

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Reply #72 on: April 08, 2021, 08:03:19 am
You are talking about a Honda Goldwing. The one bike in which EVERY gadget possible was built in. Since the beginning. Thats what you are buying. Intentionally.

If you dont want a bike with every gadget possible, buy something else.

And as I remember the Goldwing is neither self driving nor self stabilizing. And it still needs somebody who can drive a heavy cruiser. So what is your argument? Lots of gadgets (necessary or not)?

And the article even rants about gadget that "will" somedays be available and dont even exist. Its gadget fiction.

I understand why you like this article. It declares problems which are not existent.

On the other hand a blocking front wheel is a real and  existing problem for bikers. But that does not matter to you.

Your opinion is clear. "I dont want a selfdriving bike, therefore I am disabling my ABS". You are a hero.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 08:10:21 am by viczena »
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johno

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Reply #73 on: April 08, 2021, 08:50:02 am
Well thats not true is it?
I own 2 1984 GL1200's they do not have any gadgets apart from electronic ignition, both have carbs, no ABS in sight, they are simple to work on and will last forever (frame rot excepted!)
I wouldn't touch a GL1500 or 1800 with a barge pole...
of the other bikes I own the NT700va (Deauville) has some electronic gadgets (including ABS) and I hate it, complicated, heavy and difficult and expensive to diagnose any issues. soon to be rid of it.
The same number of motorcyclists sadly get killed every year whether riding a bike with ABS or not, bikes still fall over and get hit by other vehicles. Hitting another vehicle where you say ABS will stop you (bullshit) Is only one accident format and if you ride with your, the bikes and road limits rare, if you ride like an racer, ABS won't save you.
 So is really a 'can't do without' device, I have managed for 40 years and am sure many others have. Just because you don't have a choice it is now in your mindset that it must be a good thing. which is why I am confused into why you bought an Enfield...............
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viczena

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Reply #74 on: April 08, 2021, 09:07:04 am
OK, the GL1200 started with a big engine. That was gadget enough 40 years ago. But shortly after they started their gadget contest.

ABS doesnt protect you from every possible accident. Just from one special occasion: Your front wheel blocks and you dont loose it within 2 sec. After that you fall.

That situation can happen quiet common. With everybody. Novice or expert.  And it is not easy to train without ABS. At least if you dont have a large pocket full of money.

If you want to drive without ABS: Its your life. I drive 20.0000 km per year and have seen many things go sideways in the last 30 years. By "experienced" driver who thought they already know everything. Or just by idiots driving around. Thinking it is a good idea to make a turn in front of a driving motorcycle.

And I am not interested in driving a racer.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijJouHoDjQU

Especially after 1:18. These are not racers at all. Just standard everyday driving situations. The non-ABS bike falls, the ABS bike moves on. 60km/h, wet double laned street. Light rain.

Here is another beauty. Front brake locks, 2secs later he falls:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xusq1ohkOGI&t=6s

Maybe another "No need ABS, I Big Kahuna".
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:35:05 am by viczena »
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johno

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Reply #75 on: April 08, 2021, 09:39:28 am
So, first video he rides at 83mph in dark and murky conditions into stationary traffic if he rode sensibly  he wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.

second video he rides to close to the bike in front hits front brake hard for no reason (panic brakes) and low sides, ride at a proper distance use front brake gently or rear brake would have stopped the low side. ABS wouldn't have made any difference, he would have fallen off anyway..........

next
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viczena

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Reply #76 on: April 08, 2021, 09:46:36 am
look at 1:18 in the first video.
The second video shows a typical situation in riding groups. And the  fallen  bike still had enough space in front of him to avoid the crash. Easily. ABS would have kept his front wheel running, and nothing would have happened.

I have seen this video several hundred times. I analyzed every second of this video.  I use it to lecture groups before driving. The fallen guy did not do anything wrong. The black bike before him accelerated before he pulled the brakes and went sideways of the obstacle. The fallen bike saw his front man slightly accelerating, so he also accelerated. And then the front bike pulled the break heavily. This lead to a surprise reaction. Which resulted in blocking the front wheel. The ABS would have kept the wheel running. One can see that at the moment of the fall the speed of him and the other vehicle was already equalized. And there was still room left for further speed reduction.

The bike before the fallen bike even had to break much heavier, and it did not fall. ABS.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 10:19:05 am by viczena »
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Richard230

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Reply #77 on: April 08, 2021, 02:03:59 pm
Personally, I have no use for group rides. I much prefer to ride by myself when I have more control what is going on around me and only have to worry about my own safety and not what the guy ahead or behind of me might be doing. While I do sometimes ride with two friends we tend to stay about a quarter mile away from each other as we know where we are going and if someone gets a little behind we will meet up there. I have seen more than one large group of riders during the past couple of years just blow through red lights until the entire group has passed through the intersection like they were in a funeral - which one of these days they might be.  :(  I doubt ABS is helping them much.  ::)
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viczena

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Reply #78 on: April 08, 2021, 02:10:10 pm
Who doesnt prefer empty roads with no traffic? Sunshine, no rain? Terrific landscape? Clean new pavement?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 02:12:46 pm by viczena »
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Richard230

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Reply #79 on: April 08, 2021, 02:52:58 pm
Here is more of my riding philosophy: My thinking is that all of the electronic bells and whistles that are now being installed on the latest motorcycles are nice, but your best bet is to pretend that they are not there and ride accordingly. If you make a mistake and the electronic programming and safety technology corrects the issue then all is good and you are fortunate that your new bike has them. But if you ride like you are on an old-school motorcycle like an old RE iron barrel you might never need those safety enhancements.  ;)
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viczena

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Reply #80 on: April 08, 2021, 02:56:12 pm
When you change "If you make a mistake" to "If you or somebody else makes a mistake or things go just sideways (aka Shit Happens)" and cancel the last sentence then i fully agree.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 03:05:20 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #81 on: April 08, 2021, 04:27:52 pm
It's clear enough why the OP has left with a bad taste in his mouth.

He came asking where to buy an umbrella, and ended up in the middle of an argument about whether Arizona or Florida was a better place to retire to.


viczena

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Reply #82 on: April 08, 2021, 04:56:21 pm
As far as I remember he asked if anybody has removed his ABS. And got the answer that the MOT regulations are against it. An answer he did not want to get.

No umrella and no retirement. As far as I understand it. But everybody understands things differently. And for some understanding is a diffcult art.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 05:27:35 pm by viczena »
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axman88

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Reply #83 on: April 08, 2021, 06:48:22 pm
As far as I remember he asked if anybody has removed his ABS. And got the answer that the MOT regulations are against it. An answer he did not want to get.
When I joined this forum, it claimed explicitly to be the NORTH AMERICAN Royal Enfield owners forum.  Since then, sponsorship was taken over by Hitchcocks, so the NA focus been left behind, although the board still bears the name of the original, dominant North American importer.  Regardless, members world wide had been welcome for quite some time before that.  But it's good to keep in mind that the forum has a majority of members in the US, and has members from all over the world.

The Original Poster, didn't say a word in his inquiry about location, didn't express any interest in MOT testing, until YOU made it an issue.  Even then, there were several diverging, educated opinions expressed.

I fail to see why a majority of forum members would consider how MOT test procedures might view the question, as being a relevant answer to the question.  For example, NONE of my vehicles are tested, ever, nor do I expect them to ever be tested, and, even if they were, ABS is not required on motorcycles here.  This thread will, quite likely be found in future searches, by other RE UCE owners interested in "ABS Removal".  Many of these future readers will likely not care about the particulars of English motor vehicle legislation as it existed in 2021.  Perhaps we should try answering the questions that are asked, as they are asked?  There's always the option to not respond to any subject.


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Reply #84 on: April 08, 2021, 07:37:48 pm
Last night I watched the film Peter Rabbit. Toward the end of the movie, young McGregor roars up to the farm on his Royal Enfield and jams of the rear break, locking up the back wheel and dumping the bike.

For those who like ABS: This is a classic case where ABS would have kicked in saving McGregor's dignity and the bike.

For those that don't like ABS: Given the soft loose ground he may not have stopped in time before running over Bea, his love interest.

Personally I would have jammed of the back brake, shoved my boot on the ground and brought the bike to an arcing halt, impressing my beloved with a shower of mud and stones. (well, it seemed like a good idea when I was a teenager.)


johno

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Reply #85 on: April 08, 2021, 07:48:30 pm
As far as I remember he asked if anybody has removed his ABS. And got the answer that the MOT regulations are against it. An answer he did not want to get.
The Mot regulations are NOT against it its just you spouting off without local (UK) knowledge that pissed him off.
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martinw650

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Reply #86 on: April 08, 2021, 08:42:05 pm
The Mot regulations are NOT against it its just you spouting off without local (UK) knowledge that pissed him off.
Correct  :)
Although I'm not pissed off.

I got an answer; No, nobody has done it.
As regards MOT and other regulatory stuff, as usual you get a cross-section of opinions and choose who sounds like they know their onions. I think we know who they are.

I've no problem with ABS per se. I have it on other bikes (lighter, shorter, very strong brakes) where it seems like a good thing, and have older bikes without it. I'd rather it was an option, personally.

The argument for and against can continue without me. Good luck! ;)


viczena

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Reply #87 on: April 08, 2021, 09:33:39 pm

The Original Poster, didn't say a word in his inquiry about location, didn't express any interest in MOT testing, until YOU made it an issue.  Even then, there were several diverging, educated opinions expressed.



See posts 4, 7, 28. You seem to constantly forget things.
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Reply #88 on: April 08, 2021, 10:26:32 pm
Last night I watched the film Peter Rabbit. Toward the end of the movie, young McGregor roars up to the farm on his Royal Enfield and jams of the rear break, locking up the back wheel and dumping the bike.

For those who like ABS: This is a classic case where ABS would have kicked in saving McGregor's dignity and the bike.

For those that don't like ABS: Given the soft loose ground he may not have stopped in time before running over Bea, his love interest.

Personally I would have jammed of the back brake, shoved my boot on the ground and brought the bike to an arcing halt, impressing my beloved with a shower of mud and stones. (well, it seemed like a good idea when I was a teenager.)

Young McGregor was able to get the rear brake of his Royal Enfield to lock up?  I am impressed!   ;)
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM Duke 390, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


viczena

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Reply #89 on: April 08, 2021, 10:38:27 pm
Normally locking the rear brake is not a big thing. Just release it and its okay. But what happens with inexperienced riders is that they get frightened by the rear wheel sliding and pull the front brake to get slower. Then the front brake locks and they fall within 2 sec.

Your idea with feet and mud is a good one. Just needs a litle practise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCH_l-U0NP8
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 10:42:39 pm by viczena »
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Reply #90 on: April 08, 2021, 10:49:00 pm
Normally locking the rear brake is not a big thing. Just release it and its okay. But what happens with inexperienced riders is that they get frightened by the rear wheel sliding and pull the front brake to get slower. Then the front brake locks and they fall within 2 sec.

Your idea with feet and mud is a good one. Just needs a litle practise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCH_l-U0NP8

My observation is that inexperienced riders (or idiots like my son-in-law) tend not to use the front brake at all in an emergency and only stomp on the rear brake - which can lead to a similar result as young McGregor experienced.  ;)
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM Duke 390, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


Antipodean Andrew

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Reply #91 on: April 09, 2021, 12:00:17 am
Quote
Your idea with feet and mud is a good one. Just needs a litle practise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCH_l-U0NP8

Really enjoyed this video. I seem to recall one similar and the rider forgot to turn off the ABS after re-starting the bike. He ended up hitting the camera man!


viczena

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Reply #92 on: April 09, 2021, 09:54:33 am
More to watch from professional drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmhlO1PiGag
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johno

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Reply #93 on: April 09, 2021, 02:52:28 pm
two blokes gobbing off, even missed their turn  :P.
How does that make them 'professional'?
2012 B5 Bullet
 K&N, sport muffler, 18tooth fr sprocket, Avon style fairing, 1958 pattern British army haversacks. Mitas tyres DiD chain. Carberry plate.


viczena

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Reply #94 on: April 09, 2021, 03:38:32 pm
At least they own a worldwide well reputed school for adventure driving. In contrary to you.
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johno

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Reply #95 on: April 09, 2021, 05:06:26 pm
At least they own a worldwide well reputed school for adventure driving. In contrary to you.
wow, personal digs you don't know what I do,  or how i go about my life, I think if you are going to be personal you should be removed from this forum and go and bug someone else who may listen to your Dictat.
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viczena

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Reply #96 on: April 09, 2021, 05:32:46 pm
wow, personal digs you don't know what I do,  or how i go about my life, I think if you are going to be personal you should be removed from this forum and go and bug someone else who may listen to your Dictat.

If you would know anything about professional driving, you would not speak out the things you do. Easy.

if you got a professional driving school for adventure bikes, point me to it with a link and all apologies I am able to are going to you
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:44:10 pm by viczena »
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viczena

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Reply #97 on: April 11, 2021, 12:02:07 pm
wow, personal digs you don't know what I do,  or how i go about my life, I think if you are going to be personal you should be removed from this forum and go and bug someone else who may listen to your Dictat.

We dont need freedom of speech. Cancel Culture is enough. Grows like a cancer in our western democracy. The eastern socialist dictators already perfected it. And a lot of people  follow. Whole heartedly.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 12:09:26 pm by viczena »
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