Author Topic: AC regulator, for headlight.  (Read 433 times)

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Nadroj

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on: March 26, 2021, 11:18:08 am
I would like to understand how the AC regulator is connected to the bike's wiring.
It evidently has 3 terminals - two wires and a metal mounting tag to be grounded to earth.
I don't have a good enough drawing of a wiring diagram to fathom the circuit connections.
I would be very pleased if somebody could draw a simplified version, with just the needed dip switch instead of the multi-purpose switch box.



AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: March 26, 2021, 03:05:54 pm
A minimalist sketch, hope this helps.
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #2 on: March 27, 2021, 01:03:28 am
Thanks for that. It is clearer how it connects up.

What's the significance of the top-left detail, which shows different coloured wires for the dip-switch compared to the main drawing?

The AC regulator I have has a blue and brown wire, rather than an amber and yellow/red shown in some diagrams. I wonder why.

Do we know what goes on in the alternator?
Anything earthed within it?

Non fiction?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 01:07:53 am by Nadroj »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #3 on: March 27, 2021, 01:49:33 am
Where are you? What bike do you have? What are you using for electrical diagram information? What's your level of repair experience/training? Hitchcocks has downloadable manuals. The Snidal manual is the Gold Standard. This diagramme is home made for a minimalist motorcycle electrical device application. Wiring color codes seem to change between models, years & geography. I assume you have an AC headlight & tail light?

1) Top left detail? Just the color code of the "universal" switches I used.

2) The AC regulator is an alternating current device, so if it is connected across the alternator AC output leads that should be all there is to it. ARE YOU CERTAIN that's what you are looking at? Do you have pictures to post of the devices in question?

3) I have not seen a grounded alternator, where a coil output lead is deliberately grounded inside the cases.

A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #4 on: March 27, 2021, 05:15:57 am

Thanks for the response. i'm in Australia.
I have this device.
I hope to install it with a normal, permanent magnet alternator with floating coils (not earthed).
There's no reason an alternator couldn't have a grounded connection within it. Some have been like that.
The grounded connection in the AC regulator is a puzzling feature.
But I'm no expert.
The manuals on Hitchcock site shed a little more light.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #5 on: March 27, 2021, 03:25:26 pm
Sounds like you're a student of electricity. What bike are you riding?
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Adrian II

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Reply #6 on: March 27, 2021, 07:04:13 pm
Hitchcocks' on-line manual has the wiring diagram for the AC headlight models These only show the TWO wires connecting to the AC regulator, the metal mounting tag seems to be just that, not earthed at all, and there is no symbol in the schematic to indicate that is is. You have a yellow wire which is the AC feed and the amber wire which is the AC return, this is used INSTEAD OF an earth/ground wire for the return current from the headlamp and the main beam indicator light. Wiring diagram on page 70 here.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=238185&c=1062795&h=e4dc43de7234f68e6f0e&_xt=.pdf

With the 4 wire alternators you have two wires going to the reg/rectifier the other two going to the AC regulator, but the alternator stator itself is simply bolted to the inner chain case, surely no need for any separate earth, and if there was one to any of the stator windings, wouldn't something be shorting out???

A.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #7 on: March 27, 2021, 08:28:13 pm
On an AC coil you can "Earth", "Neutral" or ground one end. Any other coil that shares the same phasing (instantaneous polarity) can likewise be grounded. You could then use the paralleled outputs of the in-phase ungrounded ends as 1/2 of the circuit, the cases, interconnecting bolts and frame become the other power carrying conductor.  If you accidentally ground the opposite polarity end of the coil you'll create a dead short and let out the smoke.

The Bullet only grounds the (-) negative battery lead, not the AC system. This makes life simpler as they aren't fighting possible AC induction effects onto the DC components of anything else connected electrically to the frame.

You can absolutely use the chassis & cases as 1/2 of the AC circuit, but you might unintentionally cause odd issues with the DC side. That's why Enfield didn't set it up that way.

Utility power systems routinely ground their transformers & generator coils to earth to create a common ground plane, i.e. a common voltage reference for the system.  Fault current is the only normal "flow" expected over these, there are dedicated conductors for power flow and even a dedicated "Neutral" current conductor. The normal home service entrance supplies single phase 120/240 to the breaker box. These come from a pole top transformer with a 13,800V or 4,160V primary to center tapped 240/120 secondary . At the home's service entrance, the pole top "neutral" conductor is connected to the home's ground rod. Voltage between this neutral and either of the "phase" (normally black & red) conductors is 120VAC. Voltage Phase to Phase is 240VAC. That spot at the service entrance is the only location that neutral and ground interconnect. The house ground wires are a safety feature. The neutral is a dedicated conductor with a 0 volts to ground potential because it is bonded to ground and cannot be otherwise. Either phase conductor will have 120V to ground or neutral anywhere in the home and of course 240 V to the other phase.
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #8 on: March 27, 2021, 11:33:01 pm
Sounds like you're a student of electricity. What bike are you riding?
Not a student, just a biker who likes to tinker.
I have various Japanese, British and Euro bikes but no RE at present.
They are all pretty old.
Some currently made parts are useful to keep the defunct brands going.
Indian bits are particularly interesting.
I hope to install the Swiss AC regulator to a Ducati with no battery.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #9 on: March 28, 2021, 02:19:44 am
Is the Ducati running? Which model & year is it? The coil output should be similar in voltage & current to the Bullet values. Is it a 6V or 12V system? Bullet alternators are in the 60W-100W range, single phase. Is the Ducati the same? The reg/rec unit seems to be the same part across the 1999 DC to AC headlight transition, so there is some reserve capacity in their parts.

The AC regulator seems to be able to run 60W headlamps, based on empirical data. So it can reliably bypass at least 60 VA of coil output or else it would cook off if the headlamp filament blew. Tell us more about what you are doing. What did the "Swiss" AC regulator cost? Are you playing with a $5 0r a $60 part?
Hitchcocks ; PART No. 143777 ; REGULATOR FOR HEADLAMP, ACDC, AFTER 06/99 (FROM 9B 58861F) £20.90
Let us know what's happening, OK?
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #10 on: March 28, 2021, 05:06:09 am
Hitchcocks' on-line manual has the wiring diagram for the AC headlight models These only show the TWO wires connecting to the AC regulator, the metal mounting tag seems to be just that, not earthed at all, and there is no symbol in the schematic to indicate that is is.
Yes, thanks I did see that manual and the wiring drawings.
Pete Snidal's version on his page 156 has an added resistor.
I don't see it in other diagrams. Anyone know what it's for?

Some diagrams show on/off switch for lights, others "always on".
I gather that's for different markets.

An earth terminal is not shown in the manuals I've seen, but the part itself has stampings on the metal mount tag that seem to suggest an earth. See the photo I attached earlier.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 05:42:54 am by Nadroj »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #11 on: March 28, 2021, 05:37:30 am
It might be a voltage stabilizing resistor for lights off operation to keep the coil output from going too high, but the AC reg should do that. Like you I don't see it in any other schematic. If it exists, either it"s not shown or built into the left hand switch.
Always "on" is a valid for LED application. LED's that are polarity protected should work fine in that application. What Ducati are you adapting these parts to? 
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #12 on: March 28, 2021, 05:54:45 am
Is the Ducati running? Which model & year is it? The coil output should be similar in voltage & current to the Bullet values. Is it a 6V or 12V system? Bullet alternators are in the 60W-100W range, single phase. Is the Ducati the same? The reg/rec unit seems to be the same part across the 1999 DC to AC headlight transition, so there is some reserve capacity in their parts.

The AC regulator seems to be able to run 60W headlamps, based on empirical data. So it can reliably bypass at least 60 VA of coil output or else it would cook off if the headlamp filament blew. Tell us more about what you are doing. What did the "Swiss" AC regulator cost? Are you playing with a $5 0r a $60 part?
Hitchcocks ; PART No. 143777 ; REGULATOR FOR HEADLAMP, ACDC, AFTER 06/99 (FROM 9B 58861F) £20.90
Let us know what's happening, OK?
My 1973 Ducati single is fine but could have the electrics simplified hopefully.
Conversion from 6V to 12V is simple on these bikes as it has a centre-tapped full wave design. I just disconnected the centre wire.
The AC reg I bought for lights, horn etc:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HEADLAMP-12-Volt-AC-DC-REGULATOR-FOR-ROYAL-ENFIELD-PART-NO-143777/132827990316?hash=item1eed2a492c:g:6h0AAOSwarlb2ZNy

I also converted the alternator to be able to drive a CDI ignition, using scooter parts from India.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #13 on: March 28, 2021, 08:19:34 am
Not sure the horn vibrator coil will drive on AC, but a diode bridge should take care of that.

Well done on the  CDI! - ACR -
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Nadroj

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Reply #14 on: March 28, 2021, 12:47:59 pm
Good idea to have a diode for the horn, thanks.

Can Pete Snidal be contacted?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 10:18:06 pm
MAYBE here?  http://www.enfield.20m.com/bullet1.htm

Let us know what you find. - ACR -
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Adrian II

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Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 11:57:19 am
Elextrex World in the UK sell a replacement 12V. 120W alternator kit for the Ducati Singles which includes a self-generating CDI ignition,  this is for the wide case singles, but I think they make one for the narrow cases singles too.

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=ducati&PN=STK-164.html

The one advantage I can see over your home-brew conversion is increased generator output.

A similar set-up (with AC headlamp) actually exists for some Indian home market 350 RE Bullets, mostly the kickstart AVL Machismo and Thunderbird models, the factory adapted the Lucas-copy alternator to have one power coil replaced by a CDI charging coil, the rest of the alternator acts like their normal 4 wire iron barrel Bullet version with an AC headlight supply. It worked quite well, though it's not a direct replacement for iron barrel Bullet alternators as the rotor fixing arrangement is different.

A.

Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


AzCal Retred

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Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 03:10:38 pm
Adrian II - but it can be adapted through some creative drilling on the stator? The rotor taper is the same? This would eliminate the gear lash slop and actually be a beneficial upgrade.
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Adrian II

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Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 09:23:32 pm
The stator mounts are the same three studs as on most Indian iron barrel and Redditch alternator Bullets.

The drive side crankshaft on these is NOT tapered, it's a 3/4" diameter plain shaft, same (almost) as on the iron barrel Bullets, the rotor just slides on (and off).

So what's the problem?

There's no rotor key or keyway for the rotor cut into the drive shaft. Instead there's a keyway cut further back along the shaft and the alloy spacer that sits between the drive sprocket and the rotor is keyed to the crankshaft. An extension to the spacer acts as a reluctor arm for the CDI trigger, and the spacer has a couple of extensions on the alternator side, these mate in special slots in the rotor, which is held (hopefully firmly) in place by traditional rotor nut and spring washer on the end of the shaft.

What you MIGHT be able to do is cut a keyway in the CDI rotor to mate with the normal iron barrel Bullet rotor key, but it would have to be positioned correctly to get the reluctor arm timing correct.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


Nadroj

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Reply #19 on: March 30, 2021, 10:29:08 am
What does the reluctor arm interact with?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #20 on: March 30, 2021, 04:15:47 pm
Good definition here:

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/04/19/installation-and-removal-tips-for-ls-engine-24x-or-58x-reluctor-wheels/
What is a Reluctor wheel?
Many crankshafts feature a press-fit toothed timing wheel, referred to as a reluctor wheel. A magnet sensor mounted stationary in the block is aligned to the wheel and picks up crankshaft position. ... This toothed wheel is used by the crankshaft position sensor for ignition timing.



A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Adrian II

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Reply #21 on: March 30, 2021, 04:49:28 pm
What does the reluctor arm interact with?

One of these, it mounts on the stator studs. If necessary, right click on the picture to see it.

A.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-X-NEW-PICK-UP-PULSAR-COIL-ELECTRA-AVL-SUITABLE-FOR-ROYAL-ENFIELD-pummy/373406510299?hash=item56f0c32cdb:g:gzIAAOSwZZ5aweG9



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Nadroj

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Reply #22 on: March 31, 2021, 10:14:45 am
Can the pickup assembly be moved for timing adjustment?


Adrian II

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Reply #23 on: March 31, 2021, 10:45:35 am
I think the only adjustment possible on these (at least out of the box) is a little wiggle room for setting the correct air gap for the reluctor arm and the pulsar coil. You could try making a custom pulsar coil bracket with elongated slots, or an adjustable reluctor arm/spacer.

AFAIK this set-up actually works quite well on all the bikes it was fitted to. It's a shame we didnt get this on the 500 AVL Classic and the Electra-X, but I suspect that with only 5 of the original 6 alternator coils available for lighting/battery charging purposes, there may not have been enough output left to keep a battery charged up enough to power an electric starter as well.

A.
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Nadroj

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Reply #24 on: March 31, 2021, 11:14:48 am
This possibly could be usable on a Lucas equipped '60s British motorbike, suitably modified, if it fits.
I've been using a Boyer-Bransden with no battery (eliminator type circuit with capacitor), but disappointingly at the low voltages available at kickstart speed, the retard action doesn't work - just when it's most needed.
A CDI as for the Bullet models (some of them) is to be kept in mind. B-B is not CDI, rather it's a transistorised elec ign.
It's fun to discover alternative uses for components.
Thanks, RE India.  ;)

There does seem to be a big range of Enfield models and variations over the years, a bit confusing sometimes.


Adrian II

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Reply #25 on: March 31, 2021, 01:21:35 pm
As I mentioned, that stator studs are in the same position, and the Indian/Lucas stators and rotors are mechanically interchangeable. The CDI and points ignition Bullet main shafts are the same diameter, so it's just a question of cutting a reluctor keyway in whatever main shaft you've got if you want to fit the CDI rotor, assuming there's a similar spacer between the engine sprocket and the rotor.

CDI kits for old (alternator fitted) British bikes ARE available, it's just that the versions with lighting coils included have a pretty dismal output. The Ducati kit I linked to seems to do much better in that regard.

Boyer Bransden ignitions were notorious for going full advance at low voltage, some of their employees left to found Pazon Ignitions, which sells a similar after-market TCI conversion, except that they're better made AND their TCI boxes are designed to handle lower starting voltages. BB belatedly woke up to this fact, and their Mk4 ignitions now claim to be better in this respect.

Quote
There does seem to be a big range of Enfield models and variations over the years, a bit confusing sometimes.

If we ignore all the UK-built stuff, for years the Indian RE factory just produced the old 350 as far as the Bullet was concerned, then came the 500, then the electric start models, then the lean burn engines, then the 5 speed gearboxes, sorry, was that home market or export version? Points, CDI or TCI igntion? Then the UCE/EFI models... Just for fun I build anglo-indian RE bitsas with Indian Bullet engines and gearboxes in old UK-built RE frames (they bolt straight in), hours of joy just planning which bits to use. :)

Somewhere I posted a link to the RE Indian Retired Models (Pre UCE/EFI) parts book on-line, if you ever got insomnia I'd recommend it!

A.



Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


Nadroj

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Reply #26 on: April 01, 2021, 01:54:41 am
Good.
I found the contact breaker housing useful years ago, when I used the RE part to mount a Dyna-S ignition made for a Ducati twin to my Panther 600cc single.
Happily, the Ducati ignition baseplate has the same diameter as a Lucas/Enfield one.


Adrian II

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Reply #27 on: April 01, 2021, 11:16:50 am
Now THERE's a bit of lateral thinking!  :)  It also rather suggests that that Ducati CDI/120W alternator kit could be made to work on a Bullet with the rotor and stator suitably modified.

A.
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Nadroj

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Reply #28 on: April 01, 2021, 11:55:12 am
They say that anything is possible.
But maybe not always practical.
It was a huge project to change to electronic ignition on the Panther, done because I'd had it with unreliable old magnetos.
The modification required a change to a 12V belt driven alternator, custom rotating magnet to trigger the Dyna-S, and lots more.
Results have been very good.