Author Topic: Cam Check Cam Card  (Read 818 times)

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TrianglePete

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on: March 17, 2021, 03:17:21 pm
I set up my block/fixture to make a cam card for Bill.

If anyone needs a cam checked and cam card made, let me know.

Please only professionally ground cams.

Peter


Karl Fenn

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Reply #1 on: March 18, 2021, 03:09:53 pm
Can you tell me what the cam card is, l presume it's something related to certain tolerances judging by your many dial gauges just not familiar l looks highly specialised.


ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: March 18, 2021, 03:55:08 pm
It measures the cam profile in the engine. This allows an accurate representaion of cam events and lift profile with respect to crankshaft position and TDC.

It is important to know this information for accurate engine building.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 04:02:42 pm
Karl,

      It is a bench top, real world way of checking cam specs. Duration, lift, lobe separation and install.

In America we check at 0.050 lift for the duration  no BS .   When buying an aftermarket cam you should request

a cam card before purchase to make certain it will do what you are looking for.  The cam is the brains of the

engine .   Any questions you can reach me at my e-mail address.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #4 on: March 18, 2021, 04:56:28 pm
Oh l see l wondered what it was, l built a couple of engines over the decades but can't be sure l did it right even though they ran, my last one l send to a pro firm, they did work on the crank and gearbox bearings sent the whole engine minus the top end it came back ready to put in bike in wooden box they did a brilliant job, my feeling is these jobs have to be done correctly for any sense of longevity, well thanks for letting me know, it did appear to be a specialised field  but l was uncertain of what a came card was, thank you.


Taurim

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Reply #5 on: March 19, 2021, 12:29:41 am
Hi Peter,

Did you have the card for the stock CGT 535 cams ? (probably the same cams installed in all 500 EFI engines)

I have the data for Hitchcocks performance cams currently installed in my 535 :

Copy/Paste :

EFI Performance Camshaft Kit 90350
The following is the approximate timing for the above camshafts set with 1mm clearance:
(These figures are for information only as the EFI engines run hydraulic lifters so these figures cannot be checked in the conventional way).

Inlet opens 30° BTDC Exhaust opens 70° BBDC
Inlet closes 70° ABDC Exhaust closes 35° ATDC
 Inlet valve lift 11.3mm Exhaust valve lift 10.2mm


TrianglePete

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Reply #6 on: March 19, 2021, 02:58:02 pm
Taurim,

      I did a card for stock many years ago..  The 350,500,535 UCE engines all had the same cam. What I

remember is the stock duration 195 intake 198 exhaust   Way too small for 500,535.  on modern roads.

      The Brits like to measure their cams so they look bigger..  We measure @0.050   more realistic

No problem measuring with used lifters that have been filled with oil. they don't give enough to change things.

      How about Hitchcocks specs @0.050  for comparison purposes .


Taurim

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Reply #7 on: March 19, 2021, 08:35:51 pm
0.050 inch is 1.27mm

Hitchcocks says it is measured with "1mm clearance". So probably slightly longer opening values if I'm right ?


TrianglePete

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Reply #8 on: March 19, 2021, 09:15:04 pm
Wow    280 degree intake duration
           285 degrees exhaust duration

   I would like to measure at 0.050 to see what they really are.


Taurim

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Reply #9 on: March 19, 2021, 11:28:00 pm
At least I can show how it looks like compared to stock :


(HM = Hitchcocks Motorcycles)



Aus.GT

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Reply #10 on: March 20, 2021, 08:03:21 am
I have measured the Hitchcocks Camshafts and the duration Specs @ 0.050 are 
Inlet      245.29 degrees L/C  109.35,  Opening 13.3 BTDC  Closing 51.99 ABDC  Lift 0.360"
Exhaust 244.23 degrees L/C  112.86   Opening 55.00 BBDC Closing 9.29 ATDC   Lift 0.323"
These are at the camshafts.
Hope that helps
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viczena

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Reply #11 on: March 20, 2021, 11:01:51 am
The hitchcock has an Overlap of 23.30 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 245.30 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 245.00 degrees. Your Lobe Separation Angle is 110.93 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.35 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 112.50 degrees BTDC.

Sounds much more realistic than an overlap of 65°. According to the data in the manual.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 11:06:48 am by viczena »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #12 on: March 20, 2021, 02:42:01 pm
Just in case anyone is wondering why the cams are measured at .040" or .050" lift, there are two main reasons.

One is that it is not as easy to get an exact measurement for the precise timing of seat contact. There have been various selections of specs to measure at, including the traditional .012" lift spec from Enfield, and some other makers use a .004" lift spec.

Second, the .040" or .050" lift spec relates to the opening of the valve, where it unshrouds the seat and flow starts to get flowing better. So, using that sort of spec gives an indication of the period of opening where there is more meaningful flow going on.

However, I find it useful to also know the actual seat timing specs for a few reasons, so I still like to see seat timing specs in addition to any of the other specs provided.
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Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #13 on: March 20, 2021, 03:06:01 pm
Just in case anyone is wondering why the cams are measured at .040" or .050" lift, there are two main reasons.

One is that it is not as easy to get an exact measurement for the precise timing of seat contact. There have been various selections of specs to measure at, including the traditional .012" lift spec from Enfield, and some other makers use a .004" lift spec.

Second, the .040" or .050" lift spec relates to the opening of the valve, where it unshrouds the seat and flow starts to get flowing better. So, using that sort of spec gives an indication of the period of opening where there is more meaningful flow going on.

However, I find it useful to also know the actual seat timing specs for a few reasons, so I still like to see seat timing specs in addition to any of the other specs provided.
I agree with Ace and there is another point to bear in mind, if using 0.040" or 0.050" clearance, or other large figures when checking timings - valve to piston clearance - what might appear to work timing wise at such figures might put a valve too close to the piston when a running clearance [or lack of] is set. Numbers are great, but keeping fast moving metal parts away from each other is of more interest to me.
 B.W.


TrianglePete

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Reply #14 on: March 20, 2021, 03:20:59 pm
The SAE standard is @0.006

   In the American cam aftermarket we all us 0.050  it leaves out the fancy ramps and  BS  sales pitch.

The cams pictured above    They look like pre- UCE cams   where is the de-comp slot ect ??

A 245 degree cam is a race grind    We use 250 degree range in circle track racing.


ace.cafe

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Reply #15 on: March 20, 2021, 03:29:11 pm
The SAE standard is @0.006

   In the American cam aftermarket we all us 0.050  it leaves out the fancy ramps and  BS  sales pitch.

The cams pictured above    They look like pre- UCE cams   where is the de-comp slot ect ??

A 245 degree cam is a race grind    We use 250 degree range in circle track racing.
Hitchcock says that they have their cams specially made for them. Apparently they not including the decomp slot.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #16 on: March 20, 2021, 06:19:52 pm
I weld my slot before grinding because the cams and rollers are so hard.

In the past I searched for semi-finished blanks, no luck.  I asked Kevin M  for help   no good.

Now that the UCE is discontinued ?????? 


Taurim

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Reply #17 on: March 20, 2021, 07:47:34 pm
The cams pictured above    They look like pre- UCE cams   where is the de-comp slot ect ??

A 245 degree cam is a race grind    We use 250 degree range in circle track racing.

The EFI engine is totally transformed with these cams.
Now the engine wakes up at 4.5 K RPM and pulls up to 6.5K  :)

I had to install a bigger rear sprocket (18x38 now, 18x36 before) to adapt the final gearing to the new engine behavior.

I rode the bike 200 Km this afternoon and it was a lot of fun  ;D


TrianglePete

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Reply #18 on: March 20, 2021, 08:42:37 pm
It must be capable of 100 mph   It's a racer !!

 You need one of my fork braces for that type of spirited riding.

 My rev limiter is still intact so are the emission controls.  It is a challenge   


Aus.GT

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Reply #19 on: March 20, 2021, 09:57:25 pm
For those that want to know
0.006"  Inlet Opens 51.7 BTDC  Closes 84.48 ABDC  Exhaust Opens 86.05 BBDC  Closes 46.02 ATDC

To be honest those figures don't really reflect the camshaft. The ramps finish in the region of 0.012"

0.012"  Inlet Opens 41.21 BTDC Closes 76.25 ABDC  Exhaust Opens 78.96 BBDC  Closes 35.63 ATDC
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Taurim

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Reply #20 on: March 20, 2021, 11:55:43 pm
It must be capable of 100 mph   It's a racer !!

I only rode on small bumpy roads today so not enough space to try that. But I read 150 kph (93.75 mph) on the GPS speedcam warner  and almost 160 on the clock. It was relatively easy to reach  so the ton should be reachable ;)


ace.cafe

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Reply #21 on: March 21, 2021, 01:55:31 am
For those that want to know
0.006"  Inlet Opens 51.7 BTDC  Closes 84.48 ABDC  Exhaust Opens 86.05 BBDC  Closes 46.02 ATDC

To be honest those figures don't really reflect the camshaft. The ramps finish in the region of 0.012"

0.012"  Inlet Opens 41.21 BTDC Closes 76.25 ABDC  Exhaust Opens 78.96 BBDC  Closes 35.63 ATDC

I actually like those figures pretty well, although I would personally shorten the overlap on both sides by a little bit.
Such as:
Inlet open around 32°BTDC
Exhaust close 32°ATDC

But they are pretty good as they are.
I think it gives away a bit of lower rpm torque by closing the exhaust a little too late, but not real bad.
Just my 2 cents.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #22 on: March 22, 2021, 03:45:57 pm
That is what the Brits have used as the hot road cam.. For Ever....

Time to go dual pattern to make up for  flow   pipe  ect   Maybe ??


Taurim

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Reply #23 on: March 22, 2021, 04:32:06 pm
I don't know if the second sentence is for me but the cams is not the only modification to my 535 engine.
I have a subject (with a lot of pages !) where everything is described including the mistakes !
Head porting, compression ratio, velocity stack with ACE airbox, fuel injection and cams of course.

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=29864.0


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Reply #24 on: March 22, 2021, 10:11:59 pm
That is what the Brits have used as the hot road cam.. For Ever....

Time to go dual pattern to make up for  flow   pipe  ect   Maybe ??
I don't know where you get your ideas about us 'Brits', but I can assure you I, as one of those 'Brits' have used many different cam durations, lifts and timing combinations in the pursuit of more speed and power.
 B.W.


TrianglePete

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Reply #25 on: March 22, 2021, 11:35:44 pm
BW

     Do you use a more modern grind in your GT ?   

   Something I tried was just install a 230 @ 0.050 exhaust lobe. No computer changes.

Thats 35 degrees of duration split. Try it sometime. You will like the results.  No other hang on parts and I

changed it without taking off the tank or changing the oil..


Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #26 on: March 23, 2021, 09:13:21 am
BW

     Do you use a more modern grind in your GT ?   

   Something I tried was just install a 230 @ 0.050 exhaust lobe. No computer changes.

Thats 35 degrees of duration split. Try it sometime. You will like the results.  No other hang on parts and I

changed it without taking off the tank or changing the oil..
Hi Pete, with the Bullets, I stopped getting too engrossed in the numbers quite a while back and I found that the most impressive and / or aggressive looking cams were not necessarily the best. I also, out of sheer mechanical necessities, found that deviating from 'ideal' timings to some which gave a little more 'wiggle room' for the valves and the very lumpy pistons I use in our racing Enfields actually improved the performance, which was unexpected. It didn't take me long to try this on an Electra X I tuned - Asbo 11 - where I had been uncomfortable with the relationship between the piston and inlet valve proximity, when going over the 'other TDC', when the Redditch 'S' profile cams were timed 'on the marks', and this machine also gained a little speed and revved higher as a result. The latest 'Asbo' machine - number 41 is also an Electra X and this also runs a set of Redditch 'S' cams, with the inlet retarded by 1 tooth off the marks, not for the same reasons, as I cut the inlet valve seat back and could have run on the timing marks, but to liven it up. I am fully aware I am moving the inlet timing by a whopping 18 degrees, but it seems to work.
 More recently, on the 535GT machines I have tuned - two on the road and a third done, apart from cams which are on back order - I fitted a set of Hitchcock's cams to both completed machines, one green [Asbo 24] and the second yellow [Asbo 33]. Both are identical, with carb conversions and their cylinder barrels shortened by just over 1 mm as required to get the squish clearance right and push the CR up a little. The only difference is the green one has the cams timed to the marks, while the yellow one has the inlet cam retarded by 1 tooth, due to possible piston / inlet valve contact issues, which I put down to slight valve seat depth discrepancies, or possibly machining variations on the timing side mainshaft integral gear teeth. I was a little sceptical about this working with a set of 'out of the box' go-faster cams, but to my surprise and delight, the yellow bike turned out to have an edge on the green one and was definitely more, shall we say, 'angry'.
 I assume the ignitions, power commanders etc were all as factory, but cannot confirm this for certain and neither had a standard exhaust fitted, as they arrived, but they both went home a lot faster!
 My cam philosophy these days comes down to getting as much [but not the most] lift as required, for as long as possible, while keeping the valves away from each other and the piston. I honestly gave up logging the numbers and degrees quite a few years ago now and literally time my engines by look and feel!
 B.W.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 09:26:00 am by Bullet Whisperer »


TrianglePete

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Reply #27 on: March 23, 2021, 10:37:23 am
BW

     Wow that is a lot of info!  Do you road race the bikes? What track ? Have you done flow #s for the UCE heads? Have you tried destroking a crank ?

 After retiring from race car engine building and cam grinding, becoming a grandfather I took another tact. Why not

use my skills to get performance and keep it clean.  With the RE  UCE engine I started on the dyno with The Fin

FI manifold and ran into a wall with only a small increase. Thats when I discovered the 500s came to US with 350

cams.  That started me correcting what I thought were the shortcomings and going by complaints from Forum members.

   All the parts that I sell (except intake cam) can be installed without removing the emissions equipment.

Today I only race alt fuel and no more carbs.     Do you have a race shop ?   What type gas do they use in the UK ?

Great to interact with the Forum crowd.





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Reply #28 on: March 23, 2021, 01:47:11 pm
Hi Pete, I haven't done much the UCE engines, but, to answer your question about de stroking, I built this little monster a few years back. It is a 500 'Big Head' engine, short stroked down to 350. It has won many races, one championship and set a lap record on Anglesey, breaking it three times in one race - taking it from an AJS 7R, which we suspect may have been a 3 valver, the record having stood for some 9 years prior to our machine taking it. It was out with Honda K4 and Ducati machines, among others. Here it is, winning a race at Lydden Hill circuit, a few years back, having a run on the dyno and having the rev limiter tested. We also have a 500 which has done quite well, but not as successful as the 350 'Clipper'.
 B.W.

https://youtu.be/cNJHV-Zrstw

https://youtu.be/9zohy8Lbbgo

https://youtu.be/Foo8ayftQrY
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 01:53:38 pm by Bullet Whisperer »


ace.cafe

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Reply #29 on: March 23, 2021, 03:05:10 pm
BW

     Wow that is a lot of info!  Do you road race the bikes? What track ? Have you done flow #s for the UCE heads? Have you tried destroking a crank ?

 After retiring from race car engine building and cam grinding, becoming a grandfather I took another tact. Why not

use my skills to get performance and keep it clean.  With the RE  UCE engine I started on the dyno with The Fin

FI manifold and ran into a wall with only a small increase. Thats when I discovered the 500s came to US with 350

cams.  That started me correcting what I thought were the shortcomings and going by complaints from Forum members.

   All the parts that I sell (except intake cam) can be installed without removing the emissions equipment.

Today I only race alt fuel and no more carbs.     Do you have a race shop ?   What type gas do they use in the UK ?

Great to interact with the Forum crowd.

If you spend some time in the search function, you will find that all the flow data on all UCE 535 models is already known and posted years ago. Even flow data on UCE heads that Royal Enfield never produced.
You may also find any other pertinent information that you might be looking for. You may have to go back some years in the archives.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #30 on: March 23, 2021, 03:41:30 pm
Hey BW

      You made this old mans day with the video..  I feel like going out and dragging some knee. What sticky tires

do you like for the 535s ?      What gas in UK ??       Some good valve springs in that 350 !!  And The Sound at 10.

Thanks BW

      Ace   Just thinking about flow data for cam thoughts.   Thanks.   


ace.cafe

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Reply #31 on: March 23, 2021, 06:53:42 pm


      Ace   Just thinking about flow data for cam thoughts.   Thanks.   

I can save you some time.
All Enfield 500/535 models have flow curves that flatten-off at .350" lift. They don't back up at higher lifts, but flow doesn't increase more than a few cfm above that lift.
So, you can lift it more, but it really only extends the area under the flow curve up to 350", for all practical purposes.

To get more, it needs porting.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 06:59:56 pm by ace.cafe »
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