Author Topic: Has anyone done a C5 carb conversion  (Read 2036 times)

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Snotball

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on: March 09, 2021, 04:03:02 am
Has anyone done a Mikuni carb conversion such as offered by Hitchcock’s on a Euro IV C5. Are there any tips and tricks and in terms of overall performance is it worth doing. I’m not after any increase in top speed but would like it to hold speed better up hills.  ;)


AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: March 09, 2021, 05:52:04 am
Here's some info from two of our luminaries in the "Bullet with UCE" thread. The Hitchcocks carb kit will be very close, and they will have tuning information and parts as well. It'll save a lot of flailing. If I had a UCE it'd get a carb immediately, I see no point to overly complicating a nicely designed long-stroke, 2-valve, pushrod equipped "classic". If it stops running well, dump the water out of the float bowl and blow out the dirt. With a good filter even that's unlikely to happen. Modern electronic ignitions are pretty bulletproof. - ACR -

From ACE:
 Re: Bullet 500 that won't rev past 3750rpm ; Reply #36 on: September 27, 2020, 01:22:53 pm
I am pretty sure there is a way to change the electronics over to the one used on the AVL . The early Hitchcock carb conversion kits had something like that with it.
The injector housing bolt spacing is the same as the carbed Bullets. Get a manifold and bolt it right on. However, I strongly recommend a Mikuni. Amal carbs are very poorly made, and the cost a lot of money compared to Mikuni.
You need to get a petcock conversion for the tank after removing the fuel pump.


From Adrian II:
Re: Bullet 500 that won't rev past 3750rpm ;Reply #37 on: September 27, 2020, 02:40:44 pm
If this was a carb-fitted model from the factory (some home market UCE Bullets were, the 350 carb-fiited UCEs were also exported to some markets) it will already have a petcock, probably the same one fitted to the tank with two M6 hex set screws as used on the Electra-X (but not the AVL Classic!).
For some reason the iron barrel Bullets (or at least the later ones) have 58mm carb stud centers, the spacing on the UCE 500s is 60mm, same as the AVL, I bought a UCE carb rubber cheap which also fits the PWK34 clone I bought ludicrously cheaply to try on an Electra-X, these rubbers take carbs with a 40mm stub, so a VM series Mikuni of the right size will fit, presumably the TM will as well if there's enough under-tank clearance. There's plenty of information elsewhere on the forum about folks' successful settings for various carbs, so something that works on a 500 AVL would be a good starting point.



A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


viczena

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Reply #2 on: March 09, 2021, 06:04:40 am
You loose control over your ignition. It is fixed with carb, because the EFi uses the Throttle to determine the ignition timing. This leads to 20% less power.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #3 on: March 09, 2021, 08:23:10 am
   Hitchcocks is pretty clear that the carb conversion doesn't lose you any performance. I'd talk to them, then decide. Viczena keeps bringing this up, but I don't see any data forthcoming to back it up. It has to be working well for most folks or they'd shitcan it. H's would be losing business & be out some refund cash if their products didn't perform as advertised, and I'm not seeing that happening.
   This isn't a 12,000 RPM, 5 valve Honda-saki-aha, it's a one cylinder 500cc long stroke 2 valve pushrod motor. Even the ancient Pre-Unit Bullet can make 35 HP with points, a fixed ignition advance curve and about $3500 worth of needle bearing crankshaft, steel con rod & forged piston to replace the factory "Velveeta Cheese" parts. The C5 already has all that good stuff. Your C5 isn't going to drop 7 HP because you bolted on a Mikuni. Will it be more altitude & temperature sensitive? Sure, a bit. That's what EFI is all about. Will a carb be good enough 98% of the time? 70+ years of Bulleteering says yes. If you wanted a powerful big single, is would have been just too easy to get the KLR650, Honda 600, KTM, Husqvarna, etc. Short stroke OHC motors with 4 valves are the proper tools for that game. But that's not why the UCE's sell, they're all about the "thump", that old skool cadence. Leave the racing to the racers. Simpler is good.
   H's has the $1400 stroker crank for your machine. Displacement generally equates to more low & mid-range "umpf". Maybe a $300 535 forged piston would get you to where you think you want to be. Bullet Whisperer, Ace & Adrian II all have vast expertise in making these machines fly. How much do you want to spend?
   It's cheaper to just downshift and take your time - the machine will tell you the speed it's happy to take the grade at. My old 22 HP Pre-Unit Bullet really sets the pace, I've learned to just enjoy wherever I am at the speed it's willing to go. I could always get a Hayabusa and turn every bit of road into a blur, but where's the fun in that?

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Mikuni-Conversion-Kit-EFI-Models/38128
PART No. 90089 ; CARBURETTOR KIT, MIKUNI 32mm (2017 on C5 EFI) ; £375.00
This is a comprehensive Mikuni Carburettor kit to replace the fuel injection system on the Euro-4 C5 EFI models from 2017. This kit comprises of the carburettor and exposed S&B air filter, petrol tap and adaptor plate and all necessary: cables, gaskets, resistor plug and fittings etc.
Extensive dyno testing has shown good increases in both torque and BHP to be amongst the benefits. This kit allows the user to utilise many different exhausts, air filters and other tuning parts on the bike without being restricted by the injection system parameters. 


xxxx
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Snotball

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Reply #4 on: March 09, 2021, 09:47:57 am
Thanks for the replies. My concern as  has been mentioned above is what effect the carb conversion would have on the ignition timing. No-one seems to know exactly the relationship between the ECU and the EFI regarding the ignition timing. I suspect the basic span from around 10 and 32 degrees or so would remain with the fine tuning aspects from the throttle and MAP sensor being disabled? However that is only a guess. Hitchcock’s claim both HP and torque increases so it is likely the ignition timing still operates satisfactorily. Again just a question
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 09:50:14 am by Snotball »


viczena

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Reply #5 on: March 09, 2021, 10:42:39 am
Easy. The EFI reads the Throttle position sensor, and decides together with the rpm what timing the bike gets in that situation. There is a timing map.
If you throw out the TPS, the EFi has just one timing. No advance.
So it looses around 20%.
It gains something by the overly fat mixture, but if you enrich the EFI the same way, you get much more.
There are a lot of infos on india pages, which confirm the 20% loss. They normally change to Carb due to rust und clutter in the tank.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 10:52:57 am by viczena »
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Snotball

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Reply #6 on: March 09, 2021, 11:11:57 am
I have contacted Hitchcock’s regarding what happens to the ignition timing once the sensors have been removed. I am sure they would have carried out testing on this while developing the carb replacement kit.


Adrian II

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Reply #7 on: March 09, 2021, 12:23:49 pm
There is an Indian carburetor conversion, the carb used for this (I think it's a 33mm CV carb) DOES have a TPS which is hooked up to the existing ECU. Otherwise as ACE suggests you can bin the ECU and fit the alternator rotor and TCI for a 500 AVL, but I would also think Hitchcock's have dome their homework on this.

A.

Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


TrianglePete

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Reply #8 on: March 09, 2021, 01:41:39 pm
The problem we fight with the 500 and 535 UCE s  are that they are delivered with 350

camshafts , check the part #.   Since we don't ride around with the family at 30 mph on bad roads

we in the USA need proper cams...  Instead of carbs that really are not compatible with modern fuel (vented to atmosphere) maybe put in 500 cams and reprogram the computer.  MAYBE ??


Snotball

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Reply #9 on: March 09, 2021, 11:55:48 pm
Well I got a reply from Hitchcock’s. Apparantly the crank position sensor and ECU look after the ignition timing   with the injector and TPS replaced with resistors. I then referred to the factory workshop manual for this bike and that is absolutely correct. The only thing that effects ignition timing is the crank position sensor which feeds into the ECU and adjusts ignition timing purely based on the speed of the engine. All other sensors effect the EFI only which is made redundant when the carb is installed and the injector removed. Foe me the problem is solved!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 12:08:27 am by Snotball »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #10 on: March 10, 2021, 12:53:25 am
If the throttle position sensor is replaced by a resistor, it probably relates to maintaining a specific per-determined RPM dependent advance curve. The ECU would know RPM and trigger the spark time BTDC according to the pre-programmed curve. Lots of Bullets and Fury's have made plenty of HP and ran just fine on a fixed advance curve for a very long time. The parameters can be determined empirically or you could just ride it and be happy. H's couldn't get good dyno numbers without having a working advance curve. If it didn't advance and just parked at a fixed number, you'd run in to detonition numbers or retardation overheating pretty fast. Having only a fixed degree ignition advance can't square with H's statement of equal or better power output curves on the dyno. For one, it'd blow apart the starter if it was fixed at 25-35 degrees BTDC. There's more going on here - keep pinging H's, they'll know.

From Adrian II : "There is an Indian carburetor conversion, the carb used for this (I think it's a 33mm CV carb) DOES have a TPS which is hooked up to the existing ECU"
When the ECU knows both RPM and throttle position, a pretty good guess about airflow can happen, so a "Vacuum advance" curve function could be built in to optimize spark advance & fuel economy for low throttle/ high vacuum application. Probably a big deal for the Indian market. My old 6.5/1 compression ratio Iron Barrel has only a set of advance weights for ignition timing. It returns MPG's in the high 60's & 70's for me. Unless you spend a lot of time now ghosting along at 35-45, I doubt you'll see any significant mileage difference.
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Snotball

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Reply #11 on: March 10, 2021, 01:59:57 am
Yes agree totally. The CPS will tell the ECU the engine speed and just like the old cast iron with the mechanical advance it will probably start at around 8 Degrees and end up around 32 degrees on a fixed curve around 3000 RPM. The extra bit of fine tuning for throttle position that the TPS provides will be missing.


viczena

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Reply #12 on: March 10, 2021, 02:45:28 pm
That depends on the ignition map in the ECU. If you fix the TPS value, you are running up and down a column. Depends if and what the values in this column are. In idle TPS position all these values are equal.

Modern ignition modules dont just use RPM, but are able to measure the speed difference between up and downgoing piston in the cylinder and recalculate the second parameter for an ignition map. So there is a different spark timing when running free or under load.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 02:49:52 pm by viczena »
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TrianglePete

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Reply #13 on: March 10, 2021, 03:38:03 pm
I gave up trying to get the stock map from the manufacture .

The ECU needs a signal from the map and tps to choose the timing. very conservative considering the fuel

in India.


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Reply #14 on: March 10, 2021, 06:54:05 pm
Viczena - are you saying the spark is parked at 8 degrees advance all the time? At least your starter would survive. As a tinkerer, what were YOUR carbed-UCE spark advance numbers?

We need someone with a carb conversion to put a timing light on their machine and end this. Either H's is completely fabricating dyno numbers and using those to sell a kit to the retail public, or there's more going on. It would be difficult to match or exceed stock HP /torque ratings, as is the claim, under dyno load without having the ignition spark happen at the correct time. 8 degrees BTDC wouldn't cut it. Who has a carbed UCE and a timing light? This isn't rocket science.
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viczena

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Reply #15 on: March 10, 2021, 06:57:00 pm
When TPS is fixed, the rpm just moves one column up and down in the injector map. And why would you advance timing for TPS =0?

By using a voltage divider you could select another column. And maybe this would lead to advance. How much and in which rpms? Has to be tested. But you still have to select a column with less advance on lower rpm  to be able to use the kickstarter.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 07:00:46 pm by viczena »
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TrianglePete

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Reply #16 on: March 10, 2021, 07:34:21 pm
I still say put 500 cams in and power commander mapped to 500cc . Enjoy !!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #17 on: March 10, 2021, 07:39:45 pm
" How much and in which rpms? Has to be tested. But you still have to select a column with less advance on lower rpm  to be able to use the kickstarter. "

If Hitchcocks has a dynamometer, it is a logical assumption to speculate that they also have a timing light.
It is unreasonable to assume that a business devoted to retail market sales operating in a litigious environment hasn't fully tested & documented the claims it's making for it's retail market product.
They have access to all the same tuning software as yourself, and maybe more.
They make & sell performance UCE parts, have a dyno, and undoubtedly test to failure or close to it.
You state repeatedly that a carb makes 20% less than an EFI. Hi's says they can equal or exceed the base EFI's performance. Your whole premise is that Hitchcocks is either deceptive or incompetent, that your knowledge is the sum total of what is known about the UCE ECU function.

Lets see some real data here & stop the back & forth. Take your TPS and read it for span resistance. Plug in a variable resistor covering the same range, park it at a known value and use your timing light to see what actually happens as the rev's change. Prove what you think you know. It is unlikely the engine can start easily & put out useful power with no ignition advance as RPM changes. Something is going on - it can be determined empirically. My experience with pre-programmed PLC's is that there can be a lot of non-obvious associations going on, some you only find by going hunting. Otherwise you are asking me to believe that H's has stumbled on a miraculous way to get full power out of an engine at 8 degrees total advance at 6000+ RPM. If you are unwilling to prove what you think you know, maybe TrianglePete can step in here.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/amal-carburettor-conversion-kit-efi-models/22197

xxx
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


TrianglePete

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Reply #18 on: March 10, 2021, 08:13:50 pm
I don't want to get down on Hitchcocks , they run the forum for us to kibits...

You can not make near full power with only 8 degrees of timing.  I did not read the claims.

As a grand dad I rather make performance with the controls in tact.  If you have a stock bike and use oxygenated

fuel please try The Fin intake manifold  just switch and get better drive ability and a slight gain in power.

What ever we do you can't overcome lack of cam duration.   You can upgrade without taking the tank or valve cover

off.  You don't even have to change the oil !!!


viczena

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Reply #19 on: March 10, 2021, 08:19:12 pm
What cams would you suggest for the 500?

And what is a FIN intake?
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TrianglePete

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Reply #20 on: March 10, 2021, 08:37:06 pm
It is an intake with a vortex generator installed  it works best with Reg. E-10 or E-15

The cams I sell on e-bay under US spec.


TrianglePete

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Reply #21 on: March 10, 2021, 08:39:22 pm
The Fin intake


viczena

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Reply #22 on: March 10, 2021, 10:04:56 pm
Have you got links and more infos on these items?
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TrianglePete

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Reply #23 on: March 11, 2021, 12:20:30 am
Viczena

      I just learned how to post a photo...   a link ???

   Search e-bay   Royal Enfield U.S. Spec    that should bring up all the stuff I make for the American Road

I tried to correct the short comings of this classic single so we could enjoy them in the USA.

The Fin I stopped advertising because everybody turned up their nose when I mentioned it helps emissions.

I give them to people who prefer stock..  or I sell them every once in a while.    Don't buy from e-bay...


gizzo

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Reply #24 on: March 11, 2021, 02:48:50 am
Viczena

      I just learned how to post a photo...   a link ???

   Search e-bay   Royal Enfield U.S. Spec    that should bring up all the stuff I make for the American Road

I tried to correct the short comings of this classic single so we could enjoy them in the USA.

The Fin I stopped advertising because everybody turned up their nose when I mentioned it helps emissions.

I give them to people who prefer stock..  or I sell them every once in a while.    Don't buy from e-bay...
Open a new browser tab, navigate to the page you want to link to. Right click on the web address and select "Copy" from the drop down box. Go back to your forum reply and paste the copied web address in the box where you're writing your text. Cursor in the text box, right click and choose "Paste" in the drop down box.

ie https://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-Camshafts-500-535-UCE-engines-U-S-SPEC-215-In-230-ex-0-50/153438981294?hash=item23b9ad0cae:g:6YgAAOSwS7ZcVdQ4
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 02:57:15 am by gizzo »
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #25 on: March 11, 2021, 08:51:05 am
"Has anyone done a Mikuni carb conversion such as offered by Hitchcock’s on a Euro IV C5" No, but I did an Amal carb conversion kit on a 2013 B5, and couldn't be happier with it. The bike runs 100 times better, and that is not an exaggeration. It FEELS like it has a lot more power, but that may be because the carb fattened up the mixture a lot. No more sputtering and hesitation. No more wheezing along at 55 mph. It now pulls hard, sounds much better, and has instant throttle response.

I am very familiar with Mikuni carburetors, but only on Japanese bikes. I don't know how one would work on a RE. Are you talking about a CV carb? Also the Euro IV bikes may have a completely different EFI system than the first gen EFI bike.

If Hitchcock's says you will not lose power, I would tend to believe them. I've dealt with Hitchcock's many times over the years, and always been satisfied with their service. The cost of shipping from the UK to the U.S. is another matter, but that's not their fault. I would actually be willing to give up some power just to get rid of the EFI, but I seriously doubt that is the case.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #26 on: March 11, 2021, 09:52:12 am
Thanks gizzo , I will try that later.

Viczena try my personal e-mail for more pushrod info.

I have found that steel pushrods multiply the engine vibration.

Frequency ...


AzCal Retred

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Reply #27 on: March 11, 2021, 06:44:30 pm
This thread In this UCE forum seems to have some good pragmatic info -     
IT'S ALIVE!!! Carb install a success!
Suitcasejefferson appears to be satisfied with the outcome of "carbing" his EFI UCE, so regardless of the particulars it does work.
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


viczena

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Reply #28 on: March 11, 2021, 07:25:53 pm
Nobody said, that a carb conversion does not work. But you have to pay a price for it. Point ignition also works. Magnetos work. Glow plugs work, you just have to heat them with a torch.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #29 on: March 11, 2021, 09:52:44 pm
Apparently no price if you are just looking to replicate or even mildly improve stock performance.
Extracting maximum BHP per liter is a whole different game. Enjoying a rideable stock(ish) bike is another.
Have you read the TPS and put a timing light on some fixed values to see what the output advance curve looks like yet?
If not, why are we beating this dead horse? Claims without empirical data to back them up are not productive, just entertainment for the claimant.
Try another angle - how can you have a fixed ignition advance and duplicate on a dyno the HP/torque curves of an engine with an advance curve? How much fixed advance would it be possible to use with an electric start system? Do these numbers seem compatible or even possible?

In the old days two strokes ran with fixed advance, but the tuned exhaust pipe had a large effect on power output. Transfer port and exhaust port heights determined the real compression ratio. The big bore machines could deliver quite a kick back if you weren't awake. 2-cycle Outboard motors used huge variable ignition advance and deflector pistons to make their power. But 2-cycle engines are a whole different animal.

If H's can have NO ADVANCE CURVE and replicate on a dyno UCE factory HP/Torque numbers as they claim, WHY is there any advance at all on the pre-unit Bullet? Did H's just discover some new law of engine combustion physics unknown to Harry Ricardo in 1915? Why do they advertise that their conversion replicates or slightly improves performance? Why do the owners of these converted machines performance claims closely parallel H's? What's the logical assumption here?
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #30 on: March 12, 2021, 07:56:37 am
You actually don't pay a price for it. It actually pays you. And not just by making things the way they should be (a motorcycle should have a carburetor not a computer)  I paid about $350 USD for the conversion kit including the carb. And it works so much better than the EFI it's almost unbelievable. But perhaps just as important is that you are now riding a machine, not a computer. There is a great deal of satisfaction in that. I could never enjoy riding a motorcycle controlled by a computer. Not even if it did work well.

But lets look at the financial side of it. Compare the price of that carburetor kit to the price of a $500 electronic tuner. Compare it to the price of an EFI fuel pump (FUEL PUMP MODULE
Product code: 571052 (2013 B5 Bullet)
Normal Qty Required: 1
£429.08 exc. VAT
£514.90 inc. VAT)

Or an ECU. Or a throttle body. On average, an EFI bike has about $2K worth of parts in the fuel system, compared to maybe $500 for a carbureted bike. And a carburetor will literally last forever. The float needle valve and seat are about the only wear parts in one. Maybe the slide. And if something should go wrong, like it might get plugged up, you can usually fix it beside the road. There have been several times during the past few decades I have gotten bad gas, and the bike quit running out on the road. All I had to do was clean out the petcock and/or carburetor. It would have almost certainly ruined the fuel pump on an EFI bike.

Somebody mentioned points. I would love to be able to have points. You can troubleshoot and usually fix a points problem beside the road. Not much you can do when a CDI or pickup coil fails but call a tow truck. Points do not require constant attention. I've been driving an old car with points for more than 5 years without ever touching the points.

The only bad thing I can think of when it comes to old school motorcycle design is tube type tires. They are dangerous when they blow out at highway speeds (tubeless tires almost never blow out) and they are almost impossible to repair beside the road. They are completely impossible to repair beside the road if you don't have a center stand, which at least RE bikes still have. Yet on newer bikes almost everything has been replaced with something "modern" that makes it a lot harder and more expensive to repair EXCEPT the tires. I just can't help but laugh when I see a bike with EFI, ABS, CDI ignition, electronic traction control, computer controlled rider modes, and on and on, and TUBE TYPE TIRES. They removed all the good stuff and replaced it with junk, except for the ONE thing that really did need to be upgraded to something more modern. And tubeless tires aren't even electronic.

As I said, I believe the UCE engine is better than the pre unit engine/transmission. But IMO the electronics were a step in the wrong direction. All the 500 singles were somewhat poorly made compared to the new twins. But they have character and provide a wonderful riding experience that the new twins cannot begin to match. That long stroke single has a sound and feel that no modern bike has. It may not be powerful or fast, but to me that is not what riding a motorcycle is all about.
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viczena

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Reply #31 on: March 12, 2021, 09:07:09 am
I still remember the time, when there were only carbs. And most of the bikes had points. They were quite unreliable and most of the bikes ran like shit.

On every trip you could see at least one bike on the side of the road with a defect. Either ignition or fuel.

I even remember that you had to change the main jet when driving into the mountains, and back again when you descend. And dont forget. Else your pistons would melt.

No thanks. I want to ride a bike, not spend time with repairs. As cheap as they seem to be.

I know that time softens memory of the past. Good ole times...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 10:04:05 am by viczena »
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Adrian II

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Reply #32 on: March 12, 2021, 11:44:30 am
It IS possible to pay crazy money on carbs, I notice H's haven't offered a carb conversion for EFI Bullets based on the Keihin FCR range, have they? Even the Chinese copies of these come in at around £150/$210. That's just to pluck one example out of the ether. But while the K-word is still in our minds, a suitably jetted clone of the Keihin PWK could save big bucks over the Mikuni (or Amal!) and still perform well. They were offered by CMW as an upgrade for older model Bullets a few years ago, but since then prices have tumbled.

If suitcasejefferson's Bullet now performs better than it should(!), that sounds like a win.

A.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #33 on: March 12, 2021, 12:31:04 pm
As a 72 year old motorcycle rider and mechanic, I love these bikes I also Love my Grandchildren.

Everyone wants to make the UCE 500 and 535 more usable on modern roads. We seem to blame the FI

and computer  when in fact the 500 and 535s are built with 350 cams.  No matter what we do you can

NOT overcome a lack of cam duration....   Look up the part #  please.


Richard230

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Reply #34 on: March 12, 2021, 02:08:34 pm
I think you can thank (or condemn) government regulators for all of that modern electronic stuff on your Royal Enfield. I bet that if they didn't force RE and many other manufacturers to modernize their lumps with EFI, ABS, catalytic converters, air-injection, exhaust sniffers, etc., etc. RE would never have stuck that stuff on their bikes and your Bullet would still have a carburetor, ignition points and drum brakes.   :o Would that be better or worse than the current versions?  But at least you are still getting tube-type bias-ply Avon Slipmaster II tires on some models - along with a push-rod long-stroke single. So there is that.  ;)
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TrianglePete

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Reply #35 on: March 12, 2021, 03:20:42 pm
There is no excuse for poor engineering. 

      If you always do what you always did

      You will always get what you always GOT.

   I am for leaving the environment better than I found it        I guess I payed attention in scouts.

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ace.cafe

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Reply #36 on: March 12, 2021, 11:57:14 pm
A couple of comments on things previously mentioned above.

First, the pre-unit Bullets with points ignition really don't have much of an advance curve because the crude mechanical advance bobweights swing out to full advance all at once at around 1500 - 1750 rpm, so you are essentially at full advance all the time you are in motion at any sort of road speed. The problem with that is that full advance shouldn't really be reached until torque peak at around 3500 rpm. At full advance below 3500 rpm, if there is significant load from hard acceleration or hill, the system has no way to retard the spark, so heat and detonation(pinging) ensue with often calamitous result.

Regarding the Bullet cams, all Bullets had the same cams in the 350 and 500 since the inception in the early 1950s. They did vary by engine evolution in that pre-unit Bullets all had the same cams, AVLs all had the same cams, and UCE all had the same cams. This should not be construed that the 500 breathes the same as the 350 because all the top end(ports, valves, inlet and exhaust manifold) sizes were commensurately larger on the 500 so that breathing was suitable for the difference in cylinder volume. The cams are operating the valves the same, but a whole lot more air is coming in/out of the 500 during that time that the cams have the valves are open due to breathing tract sizes.
Not to say that improvement wasn't possible, but some people may misunderstand.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 12:00:17 am by ace.cafe »
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TrianglePete

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Reply #37 on: March 13, 2021, 12:21:23 am
A small duration cam for a 350 is not enough for a 500 or 535. 

No mater it is like strangling the bigger engine.   It is good enough for India .

We in America need a 500/535 to breath free enough to keep up to traffic .

They should have designed a proper cam for export.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #38 on: March 13, 2021, 04:44:27 am
Ace - Should I get stronger springs, taylor the advance to delay full advance to 3000 - 3500? I've never bothered to put a light on mine, just set up the static at 0.8mm & make sure the flyweights operated smoothly. There are a lot of hot rod springs available. If it improves drivability & "survivability" it seems worthwhile.
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


ace.cafe

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Reply #39 on: March 13, 2021, 11:56:00 am
Ace - Should I get stronger springs, taylor the advance to delay full advance to 3000 - 3500? I've never bothered to put a light on mine, just set up the static at 0.8mm & make sure the flyweights operated smoothly. There are a lot of hot rod springs available. If it improves drivability & "survivability" it seems worthwhile.
There have been some springs tried, such as Hitchcocks stronger springs. They delayed it a couple bundred rpm later. If there are other kits available, I haven't seen any actual results shown anywhere.
I once read about a guy who played around with modifying(lightening) the bobweights and using 2 different springs, but I can't remember exactly what he did. It never achieved the goal, but it got more toward a curve shaped advance than just the stock springs.

It should be possible to mod the distributor for a manual cable type spark advance/retard system like the very old bikes had. Maybe even a small Lucas vacuum advance unit could be cobbled on there, like from an MGB or something?. I never tried it.

The easiest thing to do is just get the revs up over 3500 rpm if you are giving it increased load from a hill or hard acceleration. Then, it won't need to retard the spark because its above torque peak rpm.
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Adrian II

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Reply #40 on: March 13, 2021, 12:30:46 pm
AzCal, try a magneto! Lucas K1F or BTH KC1 (with manual advance in view of the above) are probably the easiest to retro-fit to an Indian Bullet's crankcases if you're not fitting a Lucas SR1

Not a straight bolt-on fit with either of these two, as there are some minor modifications required, but a fairly lazy afternoon's work would see you up and running.

A.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #41 on: March 13, 2021, 04:54:51 pm
Summit Racing has a package of 3 pairs of springs from soft to firm for $13, I think that'll be good enough for a 6.5/1 & 5500 RPM motor. I can take the beast outside and do this when I change primary oil. A minute or so of unloaded running isn't going to zorch the clutch or primary chain. It'll be a good experiment, any improvement will be a good improvement, yes?

The spark advance cable idea is interesting to me, you'd be able to ping time on the fly. But we'll try the low hanging fruit first.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850120?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4rGCBhAQEiwAelVti18odmziqM_KEfxFt0MVNYlgJUowTdjlLqvGmxxJgK1i6l9DoWtorhoCeCUQAvD_BwE
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


jez

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Reply #42 on: March 16, 2021, 09:19:19 pm
Actually a smaller displacement engine would if anything have a more extreme cam. It's as Ace says. The cam  is set up for indian conditions, so low revs so as not to stress poorly matched parts on slow roads.  My carbed  535 returned over 90 mpg without me even trying. It revs to 6 and pulls well with no flatspots or advance problems. And growing up with and presenly owning manual advance bikes I know the signs. It has aftermarket cams and valve gear and a lot of the electrics have been junked.
However there is very little room so anything big bodied simply doesn't fit easily hence Hitchcocks using 32mm Amal and Mikuni slide carbs.
That's smaller than the injector bodies and it has been reported that the carb on it's own doesn't give a higher top speed, may lose a bit at top revs on the 535. Some of the early XT/TT500 engines used a 32 but they latterly settled on a 34, and that engine was known as a poor breather. My KLX 250 came with a 32 though that bike is admittedly over carbed. There's an awful lot of people on this forum arguing on stuff they don't really understand. I don't understand electrics at all so  I waited till a carbed 535 came up.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 09:32:05 pm by jez »


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Reply #43 on: March 16, 2021, 11:03:46 pm
If I remember correctly my Cast Iron from 2005 had a 28mm Mikarb as standard. With free flowing exhaust and intake plus some rejetting that bike easily out performed the 2019 UCE I own now in all areas except outright top speed which was around 10kph slower on the older bike. When it came to climbing hills and holding higher gears the cast Iron won hands down. So newer doesn’t necessarily mean better!


suitcasejefferson

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Reply #44 on: March 17, 2021, 08:19:46 am
I don't think the 500 single should be ridden much above 55 mph, no matter what cam is in it. One reason for that is it's overall poor build quality and materials. It is also an ancient design. It works wonderfully when ridden at the speeds it was originally designed to be ridden at. A long stroke engine will always have a lower redline than a short stroke engine. It will have more low end torque, but less total hp. But like I said, power is not why I ride motorcycles. I ride them for the experience. The feel and sound. At 55 mph you can almost count the firing pulses of that long stroke single. It doesn't sound like a sewing machine like "modern" short stroke engine. The only other new motorcycle I like the feel and sound of besides the RE 500 single is a Harley Davidson, and I own a 1200 Sportster. It is not powerful or fast, but again it provides that wonderful feel and sound. And unlike the RE, it will easily keep up with highway speeds without self destructing. But it is more fun being ridden slower.

As for carburetors and points, there is nothing wrong with the concept. Vintage bikes had poorly designed and poorly made carburetors and ignition systems. With modern designs, materials, and manufacturing methods it is now completely possible to build a carbureted bike with a points ignition that would run almost forever without problems. The Amal carburetor on my RE, and the Keihin and Mikuni carburetors on my other bikes work perfectly. From 1200 feet where I live to over 8000 feet. And there is no reason they cannot continue to do that for the life of the engine. My 1964 Ford has been running fine for more than 5 years without the points being touched. I probably should replace them soon. True, new points and condensers are probably a great deal more reliable than those made in 1964. A modern points system could be made to last 20 years and 200,000 miles without attention. And yet still be easy to maintain and work on, and cheap to repair if something did go wrong. Don't let problems with poorly designed and built ancient carburetors and ignition systems make you believe that the concept is bad and that new electronic technology is needed. It isn't. What's needed is better designed and built carburetors and ignition systems that work the same way the old ones did.

Drum brakes. Yes a disc is somewhat more efficient than a drum. And on some bikes it's even a good idea, at least in the front. Nothing but large touring bikes need a rear disc. I have never ridden a bike with rear drum brakes that I could not easily lock the rear wheel on. About 90% of the braking is done by the front brake anyway. The rear brake is just for fine tuning braking control. As for a front drum, I have had a number of bikes with those, and could lock the front wheel on all of them. Something that is almost impossible to do on the RE with a disc front brake. Drum brakes look way better than disc brakes. Disc brakes are downright ugly. And on a motorcycle they are right out there for all the world to see. No they don't belong on high powered sport bikes (but then I don't believe bikes like that really belong on the road anyway, they were designed for racing) or big heavy bikes. But on a RE 500, a well made front drum (like on Japanese bikes) would not only out perform the disc that is on the UCE models, but look 10 times better as well. A lightweight 55 mph motorcycle does not need racing brakes. If you can lock the wheel, you have enough brakes. You just need to learn to stop without locking the wheels, rather than having a computer take over and do that for you. Being in total control of a machine is a huge part of the enjoyment of riding. Learning proper braking, throttle control, shifting, etc. is not unlike learning how to play a musical instrument. I don't think that playing a guitar (which I used to do before I got hit with arthritis) or a piano that corrected your mistakes would be much fun, since it would require very little skill.
"I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker"
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viczena

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Reply #45 on: March 17, 2021, 08:29:58 am
Carburator, Points, Drum Brake. Good old days, when everything was better.
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TrianglePete

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Reply #46 on: March 17, 2021, 03:22:09 pm
If I remember correctly my Cast Iron from 2005 had a 28mm Mikarb as standard. With free flowing exhaust and intake plus some rejetting that bike easily out performed the 2019 UCE I own now in all areas except outright top speed which was around 10kph slower on the older bike. When it came to climbing hills and holding higher gears the cast Iron won hands down. So newer doesn’t necessarily mean better!

Don't give up on the FI so quickly     Maybe I can help..


AzCal Retred

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Reply #47 on: March 17, 2021, 04:11:43 pm
Viczena - get rid of those dinosaur pushrods & step into the actual future of where motorcycles went. I don't know why anyone would want to ride anything less than cutting edge tech. Trash that old tech beater & get a real ride.
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/first-impression-muz-skorpion-tour-18866.html
https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rider/1986-yamaha-srx600-little-miss-misunderstood/
https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/03/17/1989-honda-gb500-riding-impression-by-peter-egan/
https://ridermagazine.com/2019/12/26/2019-husqvarna-svartpilen-701-road-test-review/
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


Keef Sparrow

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Reply #48 on: March 17, 2021, 07:57:39 pm
Carburator, Points, Drum Brake. Good old days, when everything was better.
I can happily do without all those things - I don't think they are 'better' and there is a good reason they aren't on modern bikes.
Past: CB125-T2, T500, GT500, Speed Triple, 955i Daytona. Now: Royal Enfield Bullet Trials 500


gizzo

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Reply #49 on: March 17, 2021, 09:30:52 pm
Carburator, Points, Drum Brake. Good old days, when everything was better.
Hand gear change, flame tubes, atmospheric valves, rim block brakes, surface carburettors . Bring em on  ::)

Viczena - get rid of those dinosaur pushrods & step into the actual future of where motorcycles went. I don't know why anyone would want to ride anything less than cutting edge tech. Trash that old tech beater & get a real ride.
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/first-impression-muz-skorpion-tour-18866.html
https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rider/1986-yamaha-srx600-little-miss-misunderstood/
https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/03/17/1989-honda-gb500-riding-impression-by-peter-egan/
https://ridermagazine.com/2019/12/26/2019-husqvarna-svartpilen-701-road-test-review/

I would love to have a Skorpion. And a Gilera Saturno. And a Vitpilen.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 09:33:41 pm by gizzo »
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viczena

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Reply #50 on: March 17, 2021, 09:41:24 pm
Flame tubes are my favourites. Together with surface carburettors. Absolute easy to repair.

Or a Lanz Bulldog engine in a motorcycle frame. It cannot be one cylindric enough . Bulletproof and absolutely easy to maintain and repair.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 09:45:40 pm by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #51 on: March 17, 2021, 09:44:57 pm
Gizzo @ #49: " Surface Carburettor " was a new one to me! Backfires must have been awesome...  :o
Thanks - ACR -

http://earlymotor.com/leon/misc/html/surface.htm
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


gizzo

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Reply #52 on: March 17, 2021, 09:58:44 pm


Or a Lanz Bulldog engine in a motorcycle frame. It cannot be one cylindric enough . Bulletproof and absolutely easy to maintain and repair.

I'm with you on the one cylinder thing. It's the correct number of cylinders.
I used to work on a bulldog occasionally, back in the day. And TE tractors, southern Cross, Ronaldson  tippet and lister. Some collector engines, others still working for a living driving lighting plants, water pumps or shearing sheds.

I love the look of mighty drum brakes but I'd rather a disc on something I'm riding on the street. Drums can work well for sure. A disc works better though. Wet or dry it's still there. Change pads in 2 minutes and go again. 4ls brakes take time to get right. And forget machining linings to fit the drum. Good job for someone else.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:03:28 pm by gizzo »
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Richard230

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Reply #53 on: March 17, 2021, 10:39:11 pm
Gizzo @ #49: " Surface Carburettor " was a new one to me! Backfires must have been awesome...  :o
Thanks - ACR -

http://earlymotor.com/leon/misc/html/surface.htm

Don't forget that the early bikes had "LPA", Light Pedal Assist, which sometimes gave their riders heart attacks as they tried to pedal their 400 pound motorcycles uphill when the engine just couldn't cut it.  :o
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM Duke 390, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


Antipodean Andrew

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Reply #54 on: March 18, 2021, 05:59:48 am
I got my first fuel injected bike three years ago, a Yamaha MT-07. One of the things I liked most about fuel injection was the ease of starting and being able to move off quickly after. Even in mid winter where temperatures get down just below freezing point in Nelson, the bike was perfectly happy.

From what I've read the Royal Enfield EFI system on my bike is less sophisticated, so I will be interested to see how it handles the winters here (it's late summer in NZ). Perhaps some of the members can give me an idea of how the Enfield handles cold temperatures. I have noticed my bike likes a couple of minutes warm up before moving off.


johno

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Reply #55 on: March 18, 2021, 08:02:29 am
I used my 2012 B5 through winter a couple of times, not horrendously cold but -5 deg C and the Enfield was fine, just need to hold the bi-starter on for a bit longer until the engine warms enough to idle, a bit like using a choke on a carb bike except you can't ride with the bi-starter on.
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gizzo

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Reply #56 on: March 18, 2021, 09:13:26 am
Mine fires right up in the winter. It's not super cold though. 1-2 deg would be the coldest I'd ride in.

With the powercommander on it doesnt seem to need the bi starter.
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Nitrowing

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Reply #57 on: March 18, 2021, 10:14:09 am
I would love to have a Skorpion. And a Gilera Saturno. And a Vitpilen.
Now you're talking!
https://www.autoevolution.com/moto/gilera-saturno-500-1988.html
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Richard230

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Reply #58 on: March 18, 2021, 01:19:51 pm
At anything below 50 degrees F my 2011 Bullet needs the bi-starter to get going in the morning. And you need to hang on to the starter lever for a couple of minutes until the engine warms up enough to keep running without it. I agree, the Bullet's FI system does not have the world's most sophisticated injection mapping.  ::)
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Antipodean Andrew

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Reply #59 on: March 18, 2021, 05:10:30 pm
Good to know the Royal Enfield will handle some cold days.


Keef Sparrow

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Reply #60 on: March 18, 2021, 08:07:55 pm
My Euro 4 Bullet Trials EFI starts up fine at around 0°C even without the Bi-starter, although when it's that cold the B-starter will maybe start it up a second quicker, but it's never really needed. It idles fine from cold even in freezing temperatures, although I always let it run for a couple of minutes while I'm getting the last of my gear on before riding off. The engine always seems to pull and run exactly the same cold as when hot, so even if the EFI system is simple it's very effective as far as I'm concerned. Carbs are OK if you actually like fiddling around and have to tweak things to get them right, but I've rather be riding my bike instead of messing around with it. If you actually enjoy having to 'tickle' carbs and mess around with the choke good luck to you, but I'd rather ride with minimum distractions. My Bullet is the third fuel injected bike I've owned and the fuel systems on all of them always worked perfectly and never required any maintenance at all - same with the fuel injected cars I've owned. My bike isn't just a weekend toy for polishing, fettling, and occasional use - I commute on it as well, so I have to know it will always work and not require regular fiddling about with - so the EFI is all good as far as I'm concerned.  :)
Past: CB125-T2, T500, GT500, Speed Triple, 955i Daytona. Now: Royal Enfield Bullet Trials 500


Ove

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Reply #61 on: March 19, 2021, 08:20:56 am
I also have a Norton Commando (single Amal 34 mkII). I spent the last 10 days cleaning the carb through, float levels, guitar string through pilot jet, whole caboodle. What a faff. Esp. as the fault was the spark plugs.

BUT, the bike's throttle feels welded to your brain in a way EFI never manages. Wouldn't dream of swapping it to EFI (if it were possible).


viczena

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Reply #62 on: March 19, 2021, 08:24:26 am
if it were possible, you would certainly experience how quick and direct the throttle would response with an EFI.
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JohnnieK

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Reply #63 on: March 19, 2021, 02:57:07 pm
My C5 is my first bike with EFI. I've had all sorts of bikes with carbs over the years (2 stroke and 4 stroke) and I honestly can't see the difference between EFI and carb. I currently have the C5, a 2012Honda XR650L (45k kms on the clock) and my daughter has a Chinese scooter - also with a carb. All 3 bikes need the choke if it is cold (<15 C) and all 3 starts on 1st swing. They all ride equally well. The only difference is the cost of repairs. A carb will set me back maybe US $50 for the XR and even less for the scooter. The fuel pump alone on the C5 will cost more than a top end rebuild on the XR. If anything ever goes wrong with the EFI on the C5 I will convert to carb.
So I'll stick to carb'd bikes for as long as I can.


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Reply #64 on: March 19, 2021, 05:05:21 pm
The thing is, carburetors and points that are properly designed and made, out of the proper material, will never need fiddling with. And they keep things simple and mechanical. Remember the old TV show The Six Million Dollar Man? He could do all kinds of things better and faster than a normal human, due to his bionic legs, arm, and eye. If it were possible, would you want your legs, arms, and eyes removed and replaced with artificial ones like that? I seriously doubt it. EFI is several times more complicated and expensive than carbs, yet on most vehicles it does not work as well. What is probably a cheap chinese copy of a 1950s British carburetor works WAY better on my Enfield than the crappy EFI. EFI is far from being trouble free. I spent decades working on it (cars not bikes) as a government fleet services mechanic.
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viczena

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Reply #65 on: March 19, 2021, 05:48:45 pm
So the endless repairs of carbs and points were only due to bad material? Or bad design (that might really be it)? Over severeal decades?

EFi is in comparison absolutely trouble free. Not just in motorcycles , but in billions of cars. They normally last longer than the rest of the vehicle.

Whatif an EFI gets broken? Same as Whatif the crankshaft breaks? Both costly. And both very rare.

But whatif my tank rusts and clogs the injectors? Same as whaitf i put sugar in my tank and the piston stucks?

An EFi works much better than any Carb on the market. It is not dependend on the pressure differential of a venturi to deliver a das/air mixture.

And it is much easier to tune.

A new fuel pump costs 40 Euros. From the manufacturer.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/06-Fuel-Pump-Royal-Enfield-Bullet-Classic-500cc-EFI-NEW-CLASSIC-500cc-571052/392503105912?hash=item5b63021978:g:tbQAAOSwITReJe6f
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 05:54:28 pm by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #66 on: March 19, 2021, 06:19:03 pm
From a technical perspective most electronics are throw away items, there isn't long term support because the technology is constantly evolving. A 20 year old electrical set up largely is of historical interest. Another stake in the heart against long term support is marketing forces. Profits are maximized by encouraging planned obsolescence.

As Suitcasejefferson points out, barring corrosion damage most carburetors have a very long service life, independent of surrounding technical evolution. Obtaining 30 year old electronics is mostly relegated to NOS and used items.

EFI equipment is largely purpose built, retrofitting isn't really the intent. What would it actually take in cost & effort to add EFI to a 1970 Bonneville, Bullet or Commando? You'd need to know crank angle, so sensors would need to be added there at least. The processor, pump & injectors, temperature sensing would needs be purchased & adapted. What sort of price tag are you looking at?

The CB650 fuel injection project discussed on "sohc4" mentions adapting throttle bodies from a similar machine. As most of the kits seem to be control electronics only, I assume that adapting an existing throttle body is the norm?

https://www.bikebandit.com/aftermarket-parts/motorcycle-fuel-and-air/fuel-injection/pa6
https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/91356-carb-to-efi-conversion/
http://megasquirt.info/products/diy-kits/
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=177053.0  (  1980 CB650 fuel injection project  )
xx
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #67 on: March 19, 2021, 06:25:27 pm
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a33237683/sugar-in-gas-tank/

Can Sugar Destroy a Car's Engine?
It's a longstanding legend stretching nearly 70 years. Let's do some mythbusting. Sugar doesn’t dissolve in gasoline. If you add it to gasoline, it stays in granular form.
“We have not seen an engine damaged or destroyed by sugar in a gas tank, nor heard of any truly plausible or established cases of this happening,” says Mohammad Fatouraie, manager of engineering at Bosch, one of the auto industry’s main suppliers of fuel system components.
The Thing About Filters...
A sugar crystal is about 200 microns, a measure of size for small particles. Filters in a car’s fuel system capture particles much smaller than that, so suspended sugar granules in the gasoline would be caught by any one of several filters before they ever made it into the engine. There’s a fabric, sock-like filter surrounding the fuel pump pickup in the gas tank, an in-line fuel filter at the tank pump inlet, a filter on the high-pressure fuel pump in the engine bay, and filters at the inlet of each fuel injector.
Even in a carbureted engine, which doesn’t have fuel injectors or their individual filters, there’s a low chance that sugar would ever make it that far into the engine after all the other filters in the system.
Sugar is roughly twice as dense as gasoline, says Fatouraie, so some granules wouldn’t even make it all the way to the filters. Particles denser than fuel settle in pockets and corners of low-velocity flow, and there are many low-velocity pockets between the gas tank and the engine. If someone dumped sugar in your gas tank and you removed the tank to clean it out, you’d see a lot of the sugar granules collected on the bottom. It could clog the in-tank filters and prevent fuel from flowing properly, and while it’s possible that prolonged running of a car with clogged filters could burn out the fuel pump, Chris Louis, director of engineering at Bosch, says it’s unlikely to reach that point.
If you knew someone dumped a lot of sugar in your gas tank, you’d just have to drop the tank to clean it out and replace the sock filter. You may as well test the fuel pump, to be safe, and if its flow rate doesn’t match the factory specifications, you’d replace it.
Your engine would be fine.
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viczena

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Reply #68 on: March 19, 2021, 06:34:48 pm
Are you in war with the standard font? Or have you lost  your googles?

And after you found them back you realize that we have Ethanol and water in our gas. And sugar dissolves great in water and alcohol. Watch your morning tea.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 06:41:30 pm by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #69 on: March 19, 2021, 07:45:17 pm
My goggles are fine. My morning tea tends to not contain much alcohol.
If you have that much free water in your fuel you are going to have other more pressing issues.
No idea about an EFI retrofit price tag?

--------------------------------
https://www.quora.com/Is-sugar-soluble-in-alcohol

Ray Menon, studied at Rutgers University
Answered 3 years ago · Author has 3.2K answers and 4.6M answer views
simple answer is NO. I am assuming that when you say sugar you mean sucrose and when you say alcohol you mean ethyl alcohol.

Sugar and alcohol are generic terms that describe classes of compounds. For example, glucose and fructose are also sugars; methanol and isopropyl alcohol are also alcohols.

Most substances have a measurable level of solubility in any given solvent, at some temperature. Therefore, sucrose also has a measurable solubility in ethyl alcohol. However, solubility of sucrose in ethanol at room temperature is so small that it can be ignored for practical purposes.

Sugar can be dissolved into alcoholic drinks because these drinks contain significant amount of water. Sugar is quite soluble in water.
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viczena

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Reply #70 on: March 19, 2021, 08:35:41 pm
Ethanol binds water. In amounts that lead to rusty tanks.
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Reply #71 on: March 19, 2021, 08:43:37 pm
Fuel tanks were rusting long before ethanol gas. Ambient humidity drawn in by temperature driven expansion and contraction of air over the fuel as well as simple water intrusion & entrainment.
The question being avoided is how would you go about retrofitting EFI onto an older carbed machine and roughly how much time & materials would be involved?
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viczena

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Reply #72 on: March 19, 2021, 09:00:11 pm
So we have water in the tank even without alcohol? My goodness, what a nice message for the sugar.
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viczena

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Reply #73 on: March 19, 2021, 09:03:12 pm
There is practically no way to retrofit an EFi to a motorcycle engine. The most difficult part is the crankshaft sensor and the butterfly manifold.

Sometimes when your bike uses a widespread automobile engine, it is possible.
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Richard230

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Reply #74 on: March 19, 2021, 09:23:35 pm
The EFI of my 2011 Bullet is kind of funky at times as it has a habit of stalling as it is idling at a traffic light when not fully warm and also has a tendency to miss when rolling the throttle back on after riding down a hill with the throttle closed.

However, all of the modern Euro 3 and Euro 4 EFI systems seem to work very well. My only complaint with them is an abrupt throttle response when first opening up the throttle (such as on my 2009 BMW F650GS and my 2020 Duke 390). The older BMW models were noted for surging under a steady throttle (such as did my 2000 R1100R and 2002 R1150R), but that was corrected with the later post-2004 models and now they seem to work pretty well - as least my 2007 R1200R did and my 2016 R1200RS does.   :)
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #75 on: March 19, 2021, 09:32:26 pm
Scott84 on the sohc4 seems to have petered out around April 2019. Another guy there, "ratranger" says he EFI'd an XS650 Yamaha, so it seems like it's doable with perseverance. Probably a lot easier if there's something very similar but EFI'd already to work from.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/efi-what-throttle-bodies.16893/
On the XS650 site there is a link to: (   http://www.ecotrons.com   )
There is a letter there talking about a 650 conversion, as well as a picture of the fairly complete looking to me kit. It has a throttle body. Price in 2017 was about $700. The XS650 is a parallel twin, so a single TB should work fine, like an older Tiger or Thunderbolt. Take a look, see what you think, may be some possibilities.

https://www.ecotrons.com/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/



« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 09:36:22 pm by AzCal Retred »
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viczena

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Reply #76 on: March 20, 2021, 02:36:04 am
Interesting stuff. At least for 1 cyl engines they produce their own manifold. For 2,3,4 cyl engines you have to buy a used Manifold from another EFI bike and make it fit.

The other culprit ist CKP. If your Bike already has a CDI, it is quite simple. If not, you might get away with the noisy coilsignal, but most likely you have to create your own crankshaft position sensor system, for example with several magnets and a hall sensor.

If you did that, welding a threaded flange onto the exhaust (for the lambda) and maybe install a new pipe in the tank for the return line of the gas pump is a breeze.

I dont know what this kit will cost, but I think you would be better off to sell the bike as it is and buy a newer EFi bike. In addition to that in most countries with governmental inspection this conversion will not be street legal.

As for the software you should know what you are doing. You should have a dyno at hand to create a valid VE map. The delivered software you can download has a trojan horse with it (Trojan.Gen.MBT).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 02:58:50 am by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #77 on: March 20, 2021, 04:03:51 am
Glad you got to visit the site. 

Did you download the Ecotron site software to view it? Which one had the trojan?

A 360 parallel twin under 800cc using a 2 int 1 intake manifold should be able to run Ecotron's throttle body.

The crank position sensor seems the main "engineering" feat to accomplish. The XS650 had points in the head on a cam stub, so that's accessible for ignition duty.

No argument that it's way easier to just buy a factory EFI set up. You'd mentioned earlier that you were interested in EFI-ing your Boss Hoss, I was curious as to how doable it was. Seems so if you want to make the effort.

Glad you enjoyed that site, always something new to learn. - ACR -

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Reply #78 on: March 20, 2021, 03:14:34 pm
A new fuel pump costs 40 Euros. From the manufacturer.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/06-Fuel-Pump-Royal-Enfield-Bullet-Classic-500cc-EFI-NEW-CLASSIC-500cc-571052/392503105912?hash=item5b63021978:g:tbQAAOSwITReJe6f
According to Hitchcocks the fuel pump for my C5 costs 429 uk pounds. That is more or less in line with the R7k that the local dealer quoted me. A top end rebuild a XR650L costs around R5k. The pump in the link does not even resemble the pump in my C5.


viczena

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Reply #79 on: March 20, 2021, 03:19:29 pm
Rebuilding the 8l Chevy Big Block engine to EFI is quite simple. There are several  manufacturers who provide kits. And these kits are selflearning and selfoptimizing. They have a big market for these devices.

My problem is to find an EFI manifold, that will fit under the tank.
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viczena

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Reply #80 on: March 20, 2021, 03:25:33 pm
According to Hitchcocks the fuel pump for my C5 costs 429 uk pounds. That is more or less in line with the R7k that the local dealer quoted me. A top end rebuild a XR650L costs around R5k. The pump in the link does not even resemble the pump in my C5.

I also dont understand why RE sells that cheap and simple item for more than the whole engine is worth. You get a fuel pump for other bikes starting at 11 $. High end racing devices for Big Block Chevy engines cost no more than 400$. Street price for a standard fuel pump of decent quality is 70$.

Maybe an indian clerk at the factory pushed the point in the pricing one place to the right. While sleepishly digesting his lunch.

If my fuel pump fails, I would buy the polish thing or better buy a decent fuel pump with pressure regulator and install that. For less than 50$.

Fuel injection pressure is 294kpa (2.9bar). So not very much.If you use a fuel pump with a variable pressure regulator, you could go to 3.2bar, for an easy tuning. Without changing the EFI. I have once done that with a 2000 Harley Roadking. Works perfectly.

https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B019BTTU60/ref=rtpb_3?pd_rd_w=70GeQ&pf_rd_p=be844577-fee7-4bbc-8dda-083e56cc6f0d&pf_rd_r=QWJW52MAQDFSMJKCC9C0&pd_rd_r=bcef9712-9f15-4949-8e72-31324e1f74b8&pd_rd_wg=4J4MM&pd_rd_i=B019BTTU60&psc=1
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 04:28:05 pm by viczena »
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Reply #81 on: March 20, 2021, 04:33:54 pm
I work with what is there.

If it came with EFI, then I tune it with a Power Commander.

If it came with a carb, I put a Mikuni on it.

In real life, with high performance tunings on Iron Barrel 535 with 34mm Mikuni carb vs 535GT 535 UCE with 34mm EFI, they both came out the same on the dyno and on the road performance.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 04:37:59 pm by ace.cafe »
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Ove

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Reply #82 on: March 21, 2021, 10:56:05 pm
.....An EFi works much better than any Carb on the market. It is not dependend on the pressure differential of a venturi to deliver a das/air mixture......

That's just not my experience. EFI has an on / off jerkiness, especially at lower speeds and cannot match the directly connected feeling you get from a carb, especially the fine throttle adjustments, when you are rolling on coming out of a bend.

It's like guitar amps. A digital amp may be more efficient and accurate, but it doesn't have the sound quality of a valve amp.


viczena

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Reply #83 on: March 21, 2021, 11:59:17 pm
What you describe as "directly connected", is just the late and sluggish response of your carb to your throttle commands.

An EFI responds much more directly to your throttle. In bigger engines this can be a problem for beginners, so the more sophisticated EFIs allow you to program a sluggish throttle response.

Or more in pictures:
If you move the throttle the EFI says: You want it, you get it. The Carb hesitates and says: Lets see how the jet will respond to the change of the vacuum in the manifold.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 12:04:08 am by viczena »
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Ove

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Reply #84 on: March 22, 2021, 09:20:39 am
Yep, and I love it.

And, the satisfaction of messing with pilot jet sizing, pilot air screws and throttle screws to get it idling just right. It's mechanical,  repairable, gives you warning if it's wearing out.  Not disposable, requiring more time in front of a screen to manage.

I don't know if this explains the 'feeling's. To me, it's sine wave vs. square wave. More enjoyable ride, more fun to maintain, nicer to look at.

If:
1. I knew how to strip out all the ECU and associated connections and sensors (1 of which already failed on my Bullet); and
2. I didn't risk some future issues with the authorities (changes to MOT inspections),
I'd get rid of my efi.


viczena

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Reply #85 on: March 22, 2021, 10:04:47 am
Yep, and I love it.

And, the satisfaction of messing with EFI AFR values and timing, to get it just right with good low end torque. It is easy, doesnt make a mess with gas, quick and clean. I dont have to mechanically change anything. It gives you a pecise warning, if a component fails. Optherwise it just works perfectly. In all weather conditions.

I have a switch installed, so I can compare the old and the new values while driving.

More enjoyable ride, more fun to maintain, nicer to look at.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 10:08:04 am by viczena »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #86 on: March 22, 2021, 12:39:58 pm
https://thekneeslider.com/highest-tech-possible-or-home-workshop-repairable/

Quote:
Engines have improved, computer control has given us precise fuel metering and ignition timing over the entire rpm range, not to mention variable valve timing, antilock brakes and throttle by wire, the bikes you can buy today are on an entirely different plane than the vintage machines of yesteryear, there’s no comparison on almost any level, but, as I asked above, can you fix it? No assortment of tools will repair electronics that have failed. If the chip fails, the bike dies. No parts available mean you have a serious problem.

Look at the vintage bikes constantly restored and resold over many decades, a well equipped machine shop will return them to like new or better than new condition with an engine more reliable than ever. Original parts are long gone but you can rebuild them indefinitely. Now look at the newest bikes. Electronics are surprisingly reliable and take a lot before failing but when they do, it’s a trip to the parts counter or a search for a parts bike. Failing that, the bike sits.
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viczena

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Reply #87 on: March 22, 2021, 12:55:06 pm
Yeah, you need a a well equipped machine shop and a talented mechanic. Both rare and expensive. No parts available mean you have a serious problem.

"Original parts are long gone but you can rebuild them indefinitely." If you have a lathe and a milling machine and measuring tools.  And the skills to operate them. Or you buy these parts for big bucks from a retrofitter.

Failing that, the bike sits.

The tool you need for electronics is a laptop and a multimeter. Not a hammer and a screwdriver. Sensors are easy to get, fuel pumps are cheap and easy to retrofit. EFis are built by the millions, and even then you could retrofit a free EFI.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 01:06:19 pm by viczena »
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Reply #88 on: March 22, 2021, 01:15:32 pm
Years back we had the factory electronic control module installation from the 1970's running one of our two Compressed Air Buildings fail. A new factory system was quoted at $200K. Turns out with some common $500 industrial PLC's, some digital I/O and a small bucket of interposing relays we got the Air House back on line for $20K. Normally it's just proper I/O and a suitable program to replicate device function. As long as you can get suitable injector nozzles, the rest you could source aftermarket. Industrial PLC's are amazing, many run on DC 12V/24V/48V for heavy equipment or marine application. Once you build the basic program, you're there - it's just tuning after that. You are "free" of the factory parts constraints. Of course, you'd need a reason to do the work, either personal or financial.
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viczena

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Reply #89 on: March 22, 2021, 02:19:18 pm
Retrofitting another EFI is always possible. There are 2 annoying things: Redo the plug and redo the VE table.

Hopefully there will also be retrofitting ECUs for smaller bikes with selflearning. That would save a lot of time.

I am still waiting for a manufacturer to sell a preconfigured free EFI for the RE. But it seems that the demand is too low, as the factory EFi lasts forever.
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Reply #90 on: March 24, 2021, 05:27:00 am
If you can enjoy riding a computer on wheels, have at it. I prefer to ride MACHINES.
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viczena

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Reply #91 on: March 24, 2021, 08:47:02 am
Computers are also just machines. Not something magical.
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Reply #92 on: March 24, 2021, 11:33:31 am
Computers are also just machines. Not something magical.

The human body is also just a machine. A bio chemical machine and nothing magical. It needs fuel and runs on electricity.
But I much prefer my wife next to me at night and not my laptop.

Some like the analog feeling of a carburetor and some the mathematical correct values from a ECU.

To each its own

Some embrace the simplicity of being able to manually work on parts that they can see and feel with their hands and manipulate them.
Others love the endless possibilities the digital world gives them to precisely form everything to their view of perfection.

Nothing is better by default. It all comes down to personal preference....as is all in life.

And this topic is called "Has anyone done a C5 carb conversion" and not "What is better...Carb or ECU"
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 11:46:55 am by muezler »


ace.cafe

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Reply #93 on: March 24, 2021, 12:30:48 pm
Here's the thing.
All a carb or EFI can do is deliver the proper fuel mixture. That's as far as they can go in helping performance.

Both are at the mercy of who tunes it. There are bad carb tuners and bad EFI tuners, and also good ones.

While EFI systems can compensate for atmospheric conditions, so can CV carbs.

If you want improved engine performance, that comes from engine modification, which would then dictate what size carb or throttle body to use.

Both systems work. Neither is perfect.
Use what makes you happy.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 12:36:43 pm by ace.cafe »
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Richard230

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Reply #94 on: March 24, 2021, 01:07:13 pm
Personally I have nothing against computers. It is the programming of them by humans that can drive me nuts.  ::)
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jvb

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Reply #95 on: March 24, 2021, 10:40:18 pm
Personally I have nothing against computers. It is the programming of them by humans that can drive me nuts.  ::)

 ;D  As a retired programmer (46 yrs of it) I heartily concur!


Antipodean Andrew

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Reply #96 on: March 29, 2021, 07:03:45 am
Just watched 'Riding solo to the top of the world' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owyZlsa0xfE. At extreme altitudes he had to hop off and push his Enfield. Would an RE EFI model have kept going? I live at sea level so I'm just interested to get an idea from those in lands with some serious altitude.

I understand repairing a carburetor version would be more doable in these remote locations.


ace.cafe

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Reply #97 on: March 29, 2021, 01:24:30 pm
Just watched 'Riding solo to the top of the world' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owyZlsa0xfE. At extreme altitudes he had to hop off and push his Enfield. Would an RE EFI model have kept going? I live at sea level so I'm just interested to get an idea from those in lands with some serious altitude.

I understand repairing a carburetor version would be more doable in these remote locations.
They claimed in the past that the EFI was mapped to 18000 feet. I have heard reports from India that it wasn't, and crapped out at much lower altitudes. I never tried it myself.

The carbed Iron Barrel models have a screw that can be removed from the intake manifold to make it run much leaner for extreme altitiudes. Pretty sure that the Iron Barrel still rules the Himalayan adventures.
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Reply #98 on: April 03, 2021, 10:22:46 am
The EFi has no Problem matching the low air pressure. What would be a greater problem is the lack of hp in these heights. As you just have a low compression.
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Reply #99 on: April 03, 2021, 10:49:44 am
Thanks ace and viczena for your feedback. I don't think I'll have to worry in NZ with our highest road being under 4000 feet, but it was interesting to hear the technical side of things. I'm sure EFI is very basic to those with a bit of technical know-how.