Author Topic: oil supply  (Read 796 times)

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uhu

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on: January 27, 2021, 08:51:53 pm
Hi all,

Inspired by Laubfrosh I finally assembled my 1953 or something Bullet 350 I had lying around for the best part of 40 years (I used to ride a 500 twin, I stil have in boxes...). Rebored, new timing shaft, new bearings/rollers etc (living in Belgium: many thanks to Hitchcocks for the super and fast service!)... Last week she started (my target was before my 65, just in time...) and albeit I had some trouble to fire her up, she runs very sweet. I checked the oil supply to the cranckshaft (filled the filter with oil before assembly), thats ok, but I have no supply to the rockers, not even at the starting point of the external pipe. I only let her turn for, say 3 minutes, and mainly on tick-over. But before starting her again I would like to check whether it is normal that the supply to the rocker gear takes so long. I understand that the sump has to be filled with oil before the return pump can start to feed the rockers, but how long can that take? (I also checked the pressure release in the return line, and that works fine).

Can some-one help?

Grtz, Ludo

added a little picture


AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: January 27, 2021, 09:52:30 pm
Uhu -  My Bullets seem to take maybe 10-15  seconds to pump up scavenged oil in normal use.
 
Did you leave a cup or so in the crankcase for the scavenge pump to grab onto before you put on the top end? The crankcase vent is one access point to inject some oil into the crankcase post-assembly. Have you popped off the crankcase drain plug to verify rod bearing oil is actually making it in there? That will verify the crank is getting oil.

After three minutes of run time, there should definitely be oil in the crankcase. If NO oil in the crankcase, try squirting oil into the crank stub with the crankcase drain plug out to verify that that vital passage is indeed working. A bit of cork or swarf can be a showstopper. If this passage is plugged, I'd try a "Mity-Vac" or some such fluid sucker to try to pull it back out. Who knows, it might work...

If there is oil in the crankcase but but still no scavenge flow, it's probably time to pop off the timing cover.

Verify the suction side passage to the scavenge pump from the crankcase casting is clear. Manually squirt oil thru the suction passage back to the case sump with the drain plug out and check for flow.

If the scavenge suction side intake passage is clear, manually turn the spindle to verify pumping action. Oil supplied to the scavenge suction port will be pumped out the discharge port.

If the scavenge pump functions manually, check the cover gasket to verify it isn't blocking suction or discharge flow to the engine case casting.

If that all works, manually squirt oil up thru the case scavenge discharge side oil passages to see if it gets to the external line connection.

If that's good, make certain the "Y" external oil line is clear on both sides.

Reassemble, add a cup of oil to the crankcase, use an external fuel tank, pop off the tappet covers like the Indians do and verify flow out of the rockers when the engine is running with the fuel tank off.

Be methodical and don't assume anything. This is simple stuff, but a blocked oil passage or scuffed up pump innards can make everything "grind" to a halt.  :o 

Let us all know how this turns out. Pictures are always welcome and helpful.

Good Hunting - ACR -
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


uhu

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Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 09:26:52 am
ACR, thx a lot for your instructions. Engine was completely apart, and all oil passages cleaned twice (at least). But I didn't add oil to the crankcase. I'll start checking the oilpassage through the crankshaft though (I just checked the oilfeed on the cork plug, turning over the engine with the starter, which showed some flow, so I'll check also the feedside more thoroughly) and then follow your clear instructions. First work for this weekend!

Thx again,

Uhu


uhu

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Reply #3 on: January 30, 2021, 03:26:09 pm
Problem solved! Apparently a lack of patience... I started by checking the cranckcase by removing the drain plug: found approx 15 cc of oil. Squirted some oil through the shaft, also ok. Then started the engine and checked the oilsupply to the shaft again (loosening the bolt on the T.S.cover), also ok. As I had the tappetcover open, I already saw oil from the rockers was dripping down. Finally I checked oil supply to the rockers by loosening the banjobolts.
Thanks again ACR.

https://youtu.be/XVWLHTKzEIA


Karl Fenn

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Reply #4 on: February 27, 2021, 09:15:06 pm
I know from my old triumphs they never pumped much to the rockers, take the covers off and look inside for oil, it there is oil present you can establish it's working might just be taking time to pump up, not a great deal of oil is fed to the rockers on a dry sump engine.


uhu

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Reply #5 on: March 04, 2021, 02:26:24 pm
bullet 350 (boulette is her name) nearing completion.

uhu


grumbern

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Reply #6 on: March 04, 2021, 03:15:32 pm
Très chic, la Boulette ;D


uhu

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Reply #7 on: March 05, 2021, 12:50:08 pm
Merci, c'est ton projet Laubfrosh que m'a inspiré…
Ludo


Adrian II

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Reply #8 on: March 05, 2021, 04:51:31 pm
Ludo, do you know this forum? They have several Belgian members as well as French.

http://www.royalenfieldlesite.fr/forum/

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


AzCal Retred

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Reply #9 on: March 05, 2021, 10:54:17 pm
Uhu/Ludo - glad La Boulette is properly circulating oil again! I admire that alloy front rim - a 3.00 x 21? She looks purposeful! - ACR -
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


grumbern

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Reply #10 on: March 07, 2021, 08:54:34 am
Thanks Uhu,
that's as much French as I can understand, thanks to having learned Latin for some time... ;D
Two motorcycles, similar, but different. 8)
Andreas


uhu

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Reply #11 on: March 08, 2021, 12:41:52 pm
Ludo, do you know this forum? They have several Belgian members as well as French.

http://www.royalenfieldlesite.fr/forum/

A.

Hi Adrian, didn't know that site. Thx for the link.

By the way, there is a 350 bullet engine 1955 (with gearbox but minus alternator, clutch and chain and minus ignition and carburetor) for sale on a belgian site for 400 € (350 £). Engine turns over, but the vendor doesn't know the inside condition... Is that a reasonable asking price?

Uhu


uhu

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Reply #12 on: March 08, 2021, 12:45:28 pm
Uhu/Ludo - glad La Boulette is properly circulating oil again! I admire that alloy front rim - a 3.00 x 21? She looks purposeful! - ACR -

AzCal, thx again for your advice. Front tyre is indeed 3.00 x 21; rim and drum are from a seventies Honda trailbike... I'm looking for an aluminium rim, 40 spokes, 19" for the rear wheel.

Uhui

 


Adrian II

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Reply #13 on: March 08, 2021, 02:07:55 pm
Hi Adrian, didn't know that site. Thx for the link.

By the way, there is a 350 bullet engine 1955 (with gearbox but minus alternator, clutch and chain and minus ignition and carburetor) for sale on a belgian site for 400 € (350 £). Engine turns over, but the vendor doesn't know the inside condition... Is that a reasonable asking price?

Uhu

No alternator for the 1955 Bullet engine, that was the last year the factory fitted the MO1 Lucas mag-dyno.

Replacement chaincases, clutch, etc. are available. I don't know what the Belgian market for old British Bike parts is like, but it sounds cheaper than Hitchcocks once you have paid VAT and carriage. You'd have to make sure it wasn't a Clipper engine with the oil tank at the front of the crankcase.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


uhu

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Reply #14 on: March 08, 2021, 02:20:19 pm
No alternator for the 1955 Bullet engine, that was the last year the factory fitted the MO1 Lucas mag-dyno.

Replacement chaincases, clutch, etc. are available. I don't know what the Belgian market for old British Bike parts is like, but it sounds cheaper than Hitchcocks once you have paid VAT and carriage. You'd have to make sure it wasn't a Clipper engine with the oil tank at the front of the crankcase.

Its this engine. Puzzles me: apparently fitted with a MO1, but primary transmission from an alternatormodel... So should be wrong primary cases?


grumbern

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Reply #15 on: March 08, 2021, 03:02:34 pm
Yes, that's the wrong one, but doesn't mean it wasn't desirable. This one was fitted a short period in the late 50s to 350 udn 500 BUllets and also the Pashley (Indian) Three Wheeler. If it was me, I'd take it.
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 03:56:13 pm
By the way, as you asked about the handlebars on my bike, they might just be similar to these:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Royal-Enfield-Yamaha-RD-350-Norton-Triumph-Handlebar-7-8-Chrome-Plated/133553202840?hash=item1f18642698:g:mrMAAOSwXcRfj~s6


They look awful at first glance, especially with the Bullet's nacelle, but in this case they look just right.
Regards,
Andreas


Adrian II

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Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 08:05:12 pm
Most likely explanation is that the original outer chaincase was damaged and a later one fitted as a replacement. As I mentioned the older type is still available, and you should have no problem selling the alternator version if it bothers you.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


AzCal Retred

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Reply #18 on: March 08, 2021, 09:15:38 pm
@ #12: Alloy 40 hole rim - full width hub  (1/2 width also available)
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Alloy-Rims/20964
PART No. RIM319 ; ALLOY RIM, WM3 X 19'', 40 HOLE (RE full width hub) ; £125.00
This is a pre-drilled, non-flanged, European made, alloy rim and is suitable for a number of Royal Enfield models with FULL WIDTH hubs (NOT including disc brake hubs).

A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


uhu

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Reply #19 on: March 09, 2021, 06:57:16 pm
Most likely explanation is that the original outer chaincase was damaged and a later one fitted as a replacement. As I mentioned the older type is still available, and you should have no problem selling the alternator version if it bothers you.

A.
seems like the inner case is not original, with the stator fixing bolts? Anyway, I bought the motor, for 350€. I suppose, an alternator cannot be fitted to this older crankshaft?

Ludo


Adrian II

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Reply #20 on: March 09, 2021, 08:43:28 pm
You MIGHT be able to do a drive-side main shaft swap for a pre-metric bearing alternator crank. Item 17 on the parts book diagram. Part number 49005. Even after the alternator models first appeared for 1956, RE still made plain-end crankshafts for competition models, which suggests the bore in the flywheels stayed the same.

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/1239

You'd still want a platform magneto (with manual advance and retard), e.g. Lucas N1, BTH MC1 or MD1. Over the Netherlands border from you is Theodoor Leenes in Ijmuiden who might have something. http://theodole.nl/index2.html

A.

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uhu

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Reply #21 on: March 17, 2021, 01:59:10 pm
As said I bougt the abovementionned 350 engine and gearbox. Head, cylinder and pistopn are in good condition (std bore), as well as the gearbox etc. But the timingside shaft is worn. This is my third bullet 350 engine (none of them were runners), and they all had the same: TSshaft pitted over approx 180 ° of the circumference  (thx Hitchcocks for the availability of a replacement..., albeit almost 140£ taxes included). But is that a common problem with these engines? The reason why the Indian models converted to a rollerbearing?

Uhu



Adrian II

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Reply #22 on: March 17, 2021, 03:23:06 pm
The Redditch models do have a roller bearing on the timing side, the rollers run directly on the shaft  AS WELL AS a bronze bush in the timing side crankcase, parts book page herewith:

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/1474

If these engines had been sitting with contaminated oil or in damp conditions for years the corrosion is not surprising.

I guess that the reason why the Indian factory changed over to the NU205 bearing for the timing side was that it was probably cheaper to buy off-the-shelf metric bearings in bulk than carry on with a bespoke imperial bearing. The drive side main bearings were changed to their nearest metric equivalents at the same time, late 1970s?

A.
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uhu

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Reply #23 on: March 18, 2021, 11:22:31 am
Hi Adrian,

Thx for your reply. My english is not so good, when I said "pitted" it's no rust-pitting I mean, but clearly mechanical wear, like fretted through the hardened surface. I have the impression that the reason is a bad alignment (not square?) of the crankpin, as the wear apears only on one half of the circumference (the attached picture is the worst example, on the two other cranckshafts wear is just beginning). However, the outer races doesn't seem to be damaged...

Ludo


AzCal Retred

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Reply #24 on: March 18, 2021, 03:21:38 pm
Looks like fretting by the definition. I would imagine it's from out of tolerance parts or crankshaft misalignment/eccentricity. Check concentricity of all the new bits, including the crank con rod pin alignment. If the crankpin isn't properly aligning the drive & timing side shafts, or if their holes are not aligned on center relative to the crankpin, eccentric loading would occur, explaining the fretting. Time for some careful micrometer and dial gauge work.

https://www.linearmotiontips.com/whats-the-difference-between-brinelling-spalling-fretting/
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.


uhu

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Reply #25 on: March 19, 2021, 08:51:47 am
Time for some careful micrometer and dial gauge work.

Thx for the explanation (and for the new word I learned :-)). Seems indeed fretting... The cranckshaft has been reassembled with a new TSshaft from Hitchcocks and trued on a lathe to 0,02 mm. Hope that will do... Anyway, she runs fine.
I'm glad it's not a system fault in these engines... I just had bad luck, apparently.

Ludo


Adrian II

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Reply #26 on: March 19, 2021, 02:17:44 pm
I think Hitchcocks have a needle roller bearing conversion for the Redditch timing side cranks, possibly by special order rather than a catalog item.

The wear/spalling for part of the circumference on the main shaft is similar to what a saw on my first BSA C15 big-end pin.

A.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 02:20:08 pm by Adrian II »
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


uhu

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Reply #27 on: March 24, 2021, 02:47:09 pm
I think Hitchcocks have a needle roller bearing conversion for the Redditch timing side cranks, possibly by special order rather than a catalog item.

Hi Adrian, they do indeed have a conversion, but only for the 500 (from 53 on) and the 350 from 56 on... They have two rows of rollers, the early 350 a single row... Unfortunately...


Adrian II

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Reply #28 on: March 24, 2021, 02:56:52 pm
Could you get a local engineering company to grind the shaft down and fit a hardened steel sleeve the same outside diameter as the original?

A.
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Karl Fenn

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Reply #29 on: March 25, 2021, 01:47:53 pm
Don't know it might be feasible l have never come across this before, one thing for sure most good engineering shops have gone here 30 years there were plenty in town now not one, an interesting question.


Adrian II

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Reply #30 on: March 25, 2021, 02:16:44 pm
They may still have some in Belgium where uhu is. In the UK you'd probably be talking to Alpha Bearings.

A.
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uhu

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Reply #31 on: March 31, 2021, 11:33:06 pm
Could you get a local engineering company to grind the shaft down and fit a hardened steel sleeve the same outside diameter as the original?

A.
Adrian, for sure that would be an option, and supposedly cheaper than replacing the TS shaft by a new one (107£ excl VAT for the replacement part)? Anyway, in both cases the cranckshaft must be dismantled and reassembled, I suppose? Only problem, I think, is the maximum thickness of a sleeve  (inner dia cannot be less than 22,2 mm which is the inner dia of the bronze bush, outer dia 25,4 mm...). Could it be an option to grind the shaft to 7/8, and to use a ball bearing (outer dia 1"7/8 = outer dia of the hardened ring, inner dia 7/8)? I don't find a suitable roller bearing...

Ludo