Author Topic: Cruising at 120 km/h  (Read 2053 times)

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dcolak

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on: December 16, 2020, 12:36:17 pm
Did anyone have a chance to try the meteor 350?

Is it true it cannot cruise at 120 km/h?

It has a big 350 cc motor, even 125 cc's can cruise at 100 km/h, why would 350 cc have problems cruising at 120 km/h?

Highway speed limit is in most countries 120 km/h. It is not safe to cruise on a highway if you cannot do at least 120 km/h.
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derottone

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Reply #1 on: December 16, 2020, 01:02:29 pm
Most 125cc bikes are high revers. Consequently they deliver a power output that's rather close to the meteor 350. Cruising speed, top speed are proportional to the power the bike delivers to the ground. Assuming they have the exact same air resistance the power required to increase speed increases exponentially in the atmosphere. (below supersonic atleast). In another words a bike that has double the horse power will go only about approx 25% faster.
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dcolak

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Reply #2 on: December 16, 2020, 01:05:55 pm
Most 125cc bikes are high revers. Consequently they deliver a power output that's rather close to the meteor 350. Cruising speed, top speed are proportional to the power the bike delivers to the ground. Assuming they have the exact same air resistance the power required to increase speed increases exponentially in the atmosphere. (below supersonic atleast). In another words a bike that has double the horse power will go only about approx 25% faster.

Is it true meteor 350 cannot cruise at 120 km/h  ???
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derottone

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Reply #3 on: December 16, 2020, 01:10:05 pm
Is it true meteor 350 cannot cruise at 120 km/h  ???

Most likely not. 120 km/h will probably be WOT, may not be as much fun to go full throttle all the time.
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dcolak

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Reply #4 on: December 16, 2020, 01:14:31 pm
Most likely not. 120 km/h will probably be WOT, may not be as much fun to go full throttle all the time.

So, how do you cruise on highways? You'll get killed.  ???
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dcolak

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Reply #5 on: December 16, 2020, 01:17:40 pm
So, how do you cruise on highways? You'll get killed.  ???

Just found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRIQpiFRb9A

It cannot reach 120 km/h, whoah, a 350 cc.

It looks like changing sprockets is in order, it has a long 5th gear that does nothing to reach 120 km/h.

What a strange decision, to make a cruiser you cannot use to cruise on highways, which is the definition of cruising.
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derottone

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Reply #6 on: December 16, 2020, 01:53:52 pm
So, how do you cruise on highways? You'll get killed.  ???

If the frame doesn't break and the wheels don't come off unlikely.  ;D

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AzCal Retred

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Reply #7 on: December 16, 2020, 04:35:37 pm
@ #5: "What a strange decision, to make a cruiser you cannot use to cruise on highways, which is the definition of cruising."
120 KPH = 72 MPH ; The Meteor makes about 20 HP. ; The Meteor gets about 86 MPG (37Km/L). {1Km/L = 2.35 MPG}
As Derottone already pointed out, speed is merely a function of HP & drag. ( 1 PS = 0.98632 HP )
Motorbeam lists top speed as 115 KPH or 69 MPH. That'll be on flat, good pavement, windless conditions.
Unless you are turning max HP RPM (6100) at 115 KPH, you'd actually need to gear down to increase speed.
Enlarge the final drive sprocket until you find the point where max HP RPM balances drag at top attainable speed.
And THAT will probably be unpleasant & buzzy on a single, so you'll end up putting the stock sprocket back on.
Historic rule-of-thumb says it takes about 30 HP to run 100 MPH (160 KPH) on an unfaired motorcycle.
From real world experience, a 30 HP motorcycle is reasonably comfortable at 70, windless & flat ground, with even some throttle left over.
The vaguely gynecological riding position of a cruiser is less aerodynamic than that of a "standard" motorcycle, so a cruiser takes slightly more power at a given speed compared to a standard.
Again as Derottone says, nothing bad will happen to the motorcycle at 72 MPH, it just runs out of "poop" at about 70.
Speed costs money - how fast can you afford to go? If you actually "need" to run 72/120+ for hours on end and have to have a new bike, save up another $2k USD and get the 650 Interceptor.
Otherwise, either learn to be happy with a 60-65 cruising speed or acquire a 500cc or larger used twin cylinder machine.
For myself, the wind buffeting at 75 isn't too much fun. Riding's a lot more pleasant at 55. Keep to the secondary roads & enjoy life more. Let that 86 MPG keep your money in your pocket.

https://www.motorbeam.com/2020-royal-enfield-meteor-350-review-test-ride/
Royal Enfield Meteor 350 Specifications
* Engine: 349cc, Single-Cylinder, FI
* Power: 20.2 BHP @ 6100 RPM
* Torque: 27 Nm @ 4000 RPM
* Transmission: 5-speed
* Top Speed: 115 km/hr (VBOX)
* Fuel Consumption: 37 km/l
* Fuel Type: Petrol
* Suspension: 41 mm Telescopic forks (Front), 6 Step Adjustable Twin Shock Absorbers (Rear)
* Tyres: 100/90/19 (Front), 140/70/17 (Rear)
* Brakes: 300 mm Disc (Front), 270 mm Disc (Rear)

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 04:41:56 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Nitrowing

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Reply #8 on: December 16, 2020, 04:45:30 pm
20bhp from a 21st century 350cc motor is pathetic. Insulting.
Despite RE having access to every innovation, machinery and experience they still feel this is acceptable?
Now, if they stated 10k mile service intervals and 30k mile top end rebuilds, I could accept such a poor power output.

The more I read, the more I see HD type brand worship.
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


derottone

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Reply #9 on: December 16, 2020, 04:54:16 pm
20bhp from a 21st century 350cc motor is pathetic. Insulting.
Despite RE having access to every innovation, machinery and experience they still feel this is acceptable?
Now, if they stated 10k mile service intervals and 30k mile top end rebuilds, I could accept such a poor power output.

The more I read, the more I see HD type brand worship.

It's economy worship. 20hp for a low rever 350cc is ok, you want more power you got to rev higher and you get somewhat worse mileage. Primary target is the emerging markets as they say.

If the 350 sell well maybe they can make the KX happen, in a bit more legit way of course. The prototype looks interesting.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 05:08:54 pm by derottone »
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Nitrowing

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Reply #10 on: December 16, 2020, 05:24:54 pm
It's economy worship. 20hp for a low rever 350cc is ok, you want more power you got to rev higher and you get somewhat worse mileage. Primary target is the emerging markets as they say.

If the 350 sell well maybe they can make the KX happen, in a bit more legit way of course. The prototype looks interesting.
Yeah, I do get it apart from building a brand new bike that isn't an equal to what the Japanese were producing 30+ years ago  :-[
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


derottone

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Reply #11 on: December 16, 2020, 05:36:37 pm
Yeah, I do get it apart from building a brand new bike that isn't an equal to what the Japanese were producing 30+ years ago  :-[

The H'ness doesn't do much better than that and it's a Honda. And it has all the creepy features like a slipping piston. It's designed to meet certain market criteria.

Not my cuppa either but it will likely do well.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 05:43:59 pm by derottone »
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Nitrowing

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Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 06:25:25 pm
The H'ness doesn't do much better than that and it's a Honda. And it has all the creepy features like a slipping piston. It's designed to meet certain market criteria.

Not my cuppa either but it will likely do well.
I'll guarantee the Honda will do double the mileage without needing attention though  ;D ;D
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


derottone

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Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 06:50:53 pm
I'll guarantee the Honda will do double the mileage without needing attention though  ;D ;D

That could be true.  ;D ....however the sales are going to be over by the time, no one rides one bike only. There will be new models.
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Keef Sparrow

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Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 07:59:56 pm
20bhp from a 21st century 350cc motor is pathetic. Insulting.
Despite RE having access to every innovation, machinery and experience they still feel this is acceptable?
The Meteor is designed mainly for the Indian domestic market where it's performance on their roads poor is acceptable. Also, the Indian riders demand a machine which retains 'the thump' - meaning a long stroke motor and good fuel economy. Royal Enfield could easily produce a high revving higher powered 350 single if they wanted to, but it wouldn't sell on the home market as Indian buyers complain if their bike doesn't have the traditional old fashioned 'thump'. Royal Enfield will always make bikes mainly for the home market as that is where the vast majority of their sales are.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 08:39:18 pm
There's always the Jawa Perak for comparison. 6 speeds. 30 HP at some undisclosed RPM, I'm guessing maybe 8500-ish? It HAS to spin more than the Meteor to develop 50% more power (on paper, at least). Price is about 15% more than the Meteor. Mileage seems to be in the 28-32 Km/L range, probably more often 65 MPG mostly as kids of all ages will be exploring the powerband more thru that 6-speed box. Car 'n Bike think it'll run 125/75 pretty reliably, (DriveSpark is thinking 150-160 KPH (90-95 MPH) which squares with maybe 28-30 HP. It will definitely be more "frantic" than the Meteor. That 6-speed may possibly mean it's a bit "cammy". Keef Sparrow & Derottone have made a good point about market suitability. The Perak would certainly be suited for the US market where we don't mind rowing the shifter a bit. The Kamikaze Ninja 250/300 is proof of that. Derottone's other point about MPG seems borne out also, a possible 65 MPG for the more muscly Perak against a probable 85 MPG for the more laid back Meteor.

https://www.carandbike.com/reviews/jawa-perak-first-impressions-2192708#:~:text=The%20Perak%20is%20a%20factory%2Dcustom%20motorcycle%2C%20and%20India's%20most,capacity%20engine%2C%20with%20more%20performance.

https://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2019/jawa-perak-top-speed-mileage-seating-height-exhaust-bookings-deliveries-more-029879.html
Jawa Motorcycles are yet to share any official performance figures of the Perak motorcycle. However, considering the power output and weight, we expect it to come with a top speed of around 150km/h to 160km/h. Mileage & Fuel Tank Capacity The Jawa Perak comes with the same fuel tank as the Jawa and Jawa 42 motorcycle. This includes the same 14-litre tank capacity as the others. However, with slightly higher displacement and power output from the engine, we expect the Perak to return a lower mileage figure than the other two models. The fuel efficiency figures of the Jawa Perak will be in the range of 28 - 32km/l.
Read more at: https://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2019/jawa-perak-top-speed-mileage-seating-height-exhaust-bookings-deliveries-more/articlecontent-pf106935-029879.html
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 09:38:59 pm by AzCal Retred »
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axman88

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Reply #16 on: December 17, 2020, 03:06:54 am

Highway speed limit is in most countries 120 km/h.

Yet, However, apparently not so in India.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_India

Yeah, I do get it apart from building a brand new bike that isn't an equal to what the Japanese were producing 30+ years ago  :-[

Since Japan's national speed limit is basically 62 mph,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_Japan#:~:text=Statutory%20speed%20limit%20in%20Japan,and%20T%C5%8Dhoku%20Expressway%20(E4)    I can only assume that they have been building all those high powered, high speed products for export.  Is this a clever form of cold war?  If so, it's certainly effective, kill the bravest and youngest, and make them pay well for the privilege.

But, I'm just being silly....

It is equally silly to think that a manufacturer serving the Indian motorcycle market needs to concern themselves much with what the rest of the world thinks it wants.

In 2019, about 470,000 motorcycles were sold in the USA.
              about 108,000 in the UK.

Both of these english speaking countries total sales combined, comprise LESS than 3% of the 21,180,000 motorcycles that were sold in India in the same year.

I calculate Royal Enfield's piece of the India pie as around 4%.  Export sales of RE's represent around 5% of their total sales.

To put it in perspective, approx.
         1 Harley Davidson motorcycle sold worldwide for every 3 Royal Enfields sold.
         1 Harley Davidson sold worldwide for every 100 motorcycles sold in India.


Bilgemaster

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Reply #17 on: December 17, 2020, 08:04:37 am
Royal Enfield's situation in its home market is similar to Harley's in its as far as expectations go. They can't really churn out bikes SO different than their tried and true models without risking that market. The Bullet 350 has been the mainstay of Enfield's sales since their creation in the mid-'50s...even iconically so. When they could no longer squeak the old original Iron Cylinder models through ever-sharpening emissions and other requirements, they came out with the UCE model, designed with similar, if perhaps slightly improved, riding characteristics to the old model, hoping their traditionalist market would accept them. By the same token, now that years later the UCE is no longer a viable platform to carry them through yet stricter standards, their new Meteor line is designed to be similar enough to the UCE Bullets to continue to cater to that mainstay market. And that home market doesn't really care to or frankly have many opportunities most days of cruising much at 120 kph (75 mph) anyhow.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.

(Legal enough to pass muster if they don't look too closely in Woodbridge, Virginia, where the buses don't run at night, holidays or weekends and I'm a contender for 'Village Idiot')


derottone

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Reply #18 on: December 17, 2020, 08:38:53 am
I would probably disagree that the meteor 350cc engine is anyhow better suited to match emission standards.The ironbarrel design is the original RE design, what they have done inbetween the meteor and iron barrel was kind of cosmetic improvments. Most likely just purchased from 3rd parties like AVL. All this resulted in a kind of inconsistent engine mishmash with lot of lesser exciting features for the general customer. With the meteor engine they took a clean sheet of paper and developed an engine that is likely not to trash their existing customers by keeping the nostalgia features like the long stroke, the thump, economy conciousness.....csimulataniously adding on attributes that any new customer unfamiliar with REs is likely to expect. Low vibrations by adding a counterbalancer, this alone makes life easier for all components attached to the Chassis by reducing the risk of them comming loose or break, remember the Speedo bracket on the GT535 tex., or the tail light? So I doubt this design work was much to do with emmissions, more like a contradiction oriented innovation to satisfy the existing RE base and simultaniously win new customers. Increase the quality with simultaniously keeping the cost within spec. A new coherent engine design.
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derottone

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Reply #19 on: December 17, 2020, 09:07:45 am
The bad news is though that with the low. vibrating engine they can employ now a lot of idiot bracket designers with low technical understanding which will ultimately lead to the demise of the company.  ;D
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #20 on: December 17, 2020, 09:08:15 am
Derottone - I'm onboard with your emissions theory. I'm not seeing how one air-cooled 2-valve motor magically becomes significantly "cleaner" that another would be. Squish, combustion chamber shape, C.R., all can be handled with a cylinder head & piston. Stroke is still essentially 90mm. The biggie for emissions is probably the EFI, but that is again just another bolt-on. Counter balancer is a really nice sales feature, seems like it should have to increase reliability & engine longevity as well by virtue of cancelling out at least some vibration. For my money the hydraulic valves should have stayed, but chain driven OHC was probably cheaper.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #21 on: December 17, 2020, 09:13:55 am
@ # 19: Maybe use some of those pressed-plant-material plastics or go really old school and use bamboo laminates for instrument mounts , fenders, etc.
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derottone

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Reply #22 on: December 17, 2020, 10:43:50 am
@ # 19: Maybe use some of those pressed-plant-material plastics or go really old school and use bamboo laminates for instrument mounts , fenders, etc.

 ;D

...definitely, the aesthetics may benefit, who knows.  ;)

not only that, even in racing there might be a benefit to a counterbalance if you have a vibrating single. Fixing this issues the guy had in the video attached sure is possible without a counterbalance too, it would turn the bike into a tank however. So you can say that adding the counterbalancer saves weight in this case.  :)

https://youtu.be/28GlbQQomrE

This guy must have been fortunate enough never to habe worked in a retarded parasitic truck company though.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 11:45:17 am by derottone »
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Richard230

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Reply #23 on: December 17, 2020, 02:06:50 pm
Derottone - I'm onboard with your emissions theory. I'm not seeing how one air-cooled 2-valve motor magically becomes significantly "cleaner" that another would be. Squish, combustion chamber shape, C.R., all can be handled with a cylinder head & piston. Stroke is still essentially 90mm. The biggie for emissions is probably the EFI, but that is again just another bolt-on. Counter balancer is a really nice sales feature, seems like it should have to increase reliability & engine longevity as well by virtue of cancelling out at least some vibration. For my money the hydraulic valves should have stayed, but chain driven OHC was probably cheaper.

Yesterday, I read that BMW managed to push their air/oil cooled 1200cc boxer engine, as used in their popular R9T models, to meet Euro 5 emissions standards by redesigning the engine's combustion chamber to increase intake swirl.
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zimmemr

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Reply #24 on: December 17, 2020, 02:11:08 pm
;D

...definitely, the aesthetics may benefit, who knows.  ;)

not only that, even in racing there might be a benefit to a counterbalance if you have a vibrating single. Fixing this issues the guy had in the video attached sure is possible without a counterbalance too, it would turn the bike into a tank however. So you can say that adding the counterbalancer saves weight in this case.  :)

https://youtu.be/28GlbQQomrE

This guy must have been fortunate enough never to habe worked in a retarded parasitic truck company though.

When counter balanced singles first became popular for off-road bikes a lot of dirt trackers were convinced they offered better traction. Whether they provided any real advantage or not I can't say. I rode both types and never noticed much difference. And the win/lose ratio was about the same.

 For the majority of my working life I was a truck/heavy equipment mechanic, but I was fortunate that only one of the places I worked was parasitic. Though given the owners current financial worth it doesn't appear that he was retarded.  ;). Can I assume that you're also a truck mechanic?


derottone

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Reply #25 on: December 17, 2020, 02:18:59 pm
When counter balanced singles first became popular for off-road bikes a lot of dirt trackers were convinced they offered better traction. Whether they provided any real advantage or not I can't say. I rode both types and never noticed much difference. And the win/lose ratio was about the same.

 For the majority of my working life I was a truck/heavy equipment mechanic, but I was fortunate that only one of the places I worked was parasitic. Though given the owners current financial worth it doesn't appear that he was retarded.  ;). Can I assume that you're also a truck mechanic?

The owner was the parasitic loss than. No I'm not a truck mechanic, I do what I want.  ;)
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zimmemr

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Reply #26 on: December 17, 2020, 03:10:21 pm
The owner was the parasitic loss than. No I'm not a truck mechanic, I do what I want.  ;)

The owner was a F**king loon, but you make a fair point, I did what I wanted as well, which was to work on trucks, which for me was a challenging and very rewarding career. For 32 years I worked for a public electric utility where I was a shop foreman. If our trucks didn't roll, especially during storms people were without power. It may sound silly to you but I always felt like we had a social responsibility to keep the trucks on the road and by extension the power on, and so did most of my co-workers. A lot of us bitched about the "bosses" though I don't think we ever called them parasitic, as some of the more common 8 letter words were more descriptive but our attitude was that our union really controlled the way things worked on the ground and that the bosses were just there to do the paperwork. ;)


derottone

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Reply #27 on: December 17, 2020, 03:23:19 pm
Now you receive the payment for acting socially responsibly I guess. If the owner doesn't pay, those who benefitted from your work never will. At times a union can be worth something, however more often they act like another self serving organisation. ;)
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zimmemr

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Reply #28 on: December 17, 2020, 04:29:00 pm
Now you receive the payment for acting socially responsibly I guess. If the owner doesn't pay, those who benefitted from your work never will. At times a union can be worth something, however more often they act like another self serving organisation. ;)

A union is only as good as it's members who have to be responsible enough to elect honest, reasonable and intelligent leaders. If not you end up with something like what the UAW is currently undergoing or what caused the downfall of the Teamsters. It's extremely hard to do, which is why a lot of them (Unions) get it wrong.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 04:31:01 pm by zimmemr »


derottone

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Reply #29 on: December 17, 2020, 05:35:53 pm
A union is only as good as it's members who have to be responsible enough to elect honest, reasonable and intelligent leaders. If not you end up with something like what the UAW is currently undergoing or what caused the downfall of the Teamsters. It's extremely hard to do, which is why a lot of them (Unions) get it wrong.

..my favourite is the swedish Unionen, f@#in Imbecilles. One of the greatest things ever they introduced was "mansplaining", someone has to do the explaining I suppose, consequently the company didn't come up with anything ever since.  :D
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 05:38:39 pm by derottone »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #30 on: December 17, 2020, 07:11:25 pm
Zimmemr - my Electrical Utility Union experience parallels yours. A good Union takes work & member support. Lots of workers somehow believe the company gives up those benefits out of the goodness of their hearts. Ben Franklin's "Hang together or hang separately" doctrine really applies. On the Railroad I got to experience a "Company Union" and was not impressed. It was "the best Union the Company ever had...".
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zimmemr

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Reply #31 on: December 17, 2020, 10:18:24 pm
Zimmemr - my Electrical Utility Union experience parallels yours. A good Union takes work & member support. Lots of workers somehow believe the company gives up those benefits out of the goodness of their hearts. Ben Franklin's "Hang together or hang separately" doctrine really applies. On the Railroad I got to experience a "Company Union" and was not impressed. It was "the best Union the Company ever had...".

I hear you brother. We went through some very tough times when we elected a real low life to run our local. Pretty soon he had a new caddy and we  lost benefits, overtime and saw our jobs farmed out to scab contractors. Fortunately for us, he pulled one of those  "If you walk out on me I'll kill myself" stunts with his wife. She kept walking and to the surprise of all of us he turned out to be true to word. Our next president and his board got thing turned around and even though I retired on the last day of the current contract. The one he and his crew negotiated turned out to be a good one. I was in IBEW local 420, it was an "inside" local at Connecticut Light and Power Our traveling local is 42, were you IBEW?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 10:21:45 pm by zimmemr »


Richard230

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Reply #32 on: December 17, 2020, 10:22:37 pm
The municipal worker's union that I was forced to join (what they called a "closed shop"), had meetings that were a joke. Everyone sat around in the DPW lunchroom and drank "Irish" coffee and complained and joked about their "stupidvisors". When it came time to elect officers, the only people who were nominated were the members who didn't show up to the meeting. Everyone always tried to show up for the election meeting so that they could decline the job if they were nominated.   ::)  The union really didn't do much other than spending a year on city time during the day negotiating a new contract.  ???
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #33 on: December 17, 2020, 11:42:58 pm
UWUA & IBEW both over time: San Onofre, Mohave GS, Bishop and Big Creek Hydro, and some time in Transmission. The young guys don't really believe how underhanded the company can be, they often just see the letterhead on the paycheck and assume they are valued. There's always a tough learning curve. The membership makes the Union, when they don't care & pay attention, things fall apart.
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zimmemr

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Reply #34 on: December 18, 2020, 12:51:51 am
UWUA & IBEW both over time: San Onofre, Mohave GS, Bishop and Big Creek Hydro, and some time in Transmission. The young guys don't really believe how underhanded the company can be, they often just see the letterhead on the paycheck and assume they are valued. There's always a tough learning curve. The membership makes the Union, when they don't care & pay attention, things fall apart.

We're on the same page my friend. Exactly the same page.


ace.cafe

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Reply #35 on: January 03, 2021, 04:16:43 am
Pomeroy Dictum for engine longevity.
2500 fpm avg piston speed limits during normal use.
90mm stroke at 2500 fpm = 4250 rpm cruising rpm.
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gizzo

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Reply #36 on: February 11, 2021, 09:05:09 am
Is it true meteor 350 cannot cruise at 120 km/h  ???

It'll do it at redline in first.

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gizzo

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Reply #37 on: February 11, 2021, 09:07:37 am
There's always the Jawa Perak for comparison. 6 speeds. 30 HP at some undisclosed RPM, I'm guessing maybe 8500-ish? It HAS to spin more than the Meteor to develop 50% more power (on paper, at least). Price is about 15% more than the Meteor. Mileage seems to be in the 28-32 Km/L range, probably more often 65 MPG mostly as kids of all ages will be exploring the powerband more thru that 6-speed box. Car 'n Bike think it'll run 125/75 pretty reliably, (DriveSpark is thinking 150-160 KPH (90-95 MPH) which squares with maybe 28-30 HP. It will definitely be more "frantic" than the Meteor. That 6-speed may possibly mean it's a bit "cammy". Keef Sparrow & Derottone have made a good point about market suitability. The Perak would certainly be suited for the US market where we don't mind rowing the shifter a bit. The Kamikaze Ninja 250/300 is proof of that. Derottone's other point about MPG seems borne out also, a possible 65 MPG for the more muscly Perak against a probable 85 MPG for the more laid back Meteor.

https://www.carandbike.com/reviews/jawa-perak-first-impressions-2192708#:~:text=The%20Perak%20is%20a%20factory%2Dcustom%20motorcycle%2C%20and%20India's%20most,capacity%20engine%2C%20with%20more%20performance.

https://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2019/jawa-perak-top-speed-mileage-seating-height-exhaust-bookings-deliveries-more-029879.html
Jawa Motorcycles are yet to share any official performance figures of the Perak motorcycle. However, considering the power output and weight, we expect it to come with a top speed of around 150km/h to 160km/h. Mileage & Fuel Tank Capacity The Jawa Perak comes with the same fuel tank as the Jawa and Jawa 42 motorcycle. This includes the same 14-litre tank capacity as the others. However, with slightly higher displacement and power output from the engine, we expect the Perak to return a lower mileage figure than the other two models. The fuel efficiency figures of the Jawa Perak will be in the range of 28 - 32km/l.
Read more at: https://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/2019/jawa-perak-top-speed-mileage-seating-height-exhaust-bookings-deliveries-more/articlecontent-pf106935-029879.html


Those comparisons are worthless. Indian media just makes shit up based on whatever they think will make them sound like they know what they're talking about. Probably got something to do with monetization.
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derottone

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Reply #38 on: February 12, 2021, 01:04:23 pm
Pomeroy Dictum for engine longevity.
2500 fpm avg piston speed limits during normal use.
90mm stroke at 2500 fpm = 4250 rpm cruising rpm.

Is there more to the Pomeroy Dictum? Never heard of it, 2500 fpm seems like a relatively slow piston speed.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #39 on: February 12, 2021, 04:41:15 pm
Is there more to the Pomeroy Dictum? Never heard of it, 2500 fpm seems like a relatively slow piston speed.
It was a guide for normal vehicles, not racing, and it was many years ago. However, it is still quite applicable for road vehicles even today, and many vehicles still conform, even though they don't define it as Pomeroy.


Famous British engineer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Pomeroy

Article.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/amp10953/nascar-would-have-pomeroy-spinning/

« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 04:54:11 pm by ace.cafe »
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derottone

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Reply #40 on: February 12, 2021, 06:24:44 pm
Interesting, always good to have a rule of thumb.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #41 on: February 12, 2021, 06:34:38 pm
An article by the noted Kevin Cameron referring to engineer Laurence Pomeroy. Easily found information with a simple search.
 Also kudos to Ace by bringing up Pomeroy in this forum 12 years ago in this forum.
Let's discuss Piston Speeds on: March 14, 2009, 05:08:43 pm
" A long time ago, there was this automotive engineer by the name of Laurence Pomeroy.
He came up with a standard called the "Pomeroy Dictum". The Pomeroy Dictum states that for good longevity, the piston speeds in an internal combustion engine should remain under 2500 feet per minute.
Okay that's a relatively older standard, but it's still relevant, and it was an accepted premise when the Bullet engine was originally developed in the 1940s/50s. "


Kevin Cameron
Shouldrace bikesbe purpose-builtor heavilybasedon productionbikes?
Motorcycle Sport & Leisure3 Jun 2020Kevin Cameron
Should race bikes be purpose-built? Kevin Cameron looks at the longstanding argument.

When the Isle of Man TT road races resumed in 1920after the Great War,the general assumption was that this was still a test of endurance among well-prepared production bikes - literally a Tourist Trophy event. If primitive belt-rim or caliper brakes functioned poorly, too bad! It would be un-sporting to fit nonproduction brakes that actually worked.

Yetit was also clear that success on the Island sold a lot of motorcycles, such that sourpuss makers like Triumph and BSA,normally devoted to selling lowpriced utility bikes, were tempted to give it a try.

In engines, the sharp point of technology was overhead valves. But Laurence Pomeroy's dictum applied in 1920: "The first instance of novel principle is invariably defeated by the developed example of established practice:' A side-valve Sunbeam won the Senior TT in 1920, despite Douglas's head start with OHV (they'd built one in 1913) and AJS'scertainty that OHV was the future. Alec Bennett's 1922 Senior win on a Sunbeam would be the last in class by a side-valve.

The following year Douglas got it right and the revolution appeared unstoppable as their bikes were 1-2-3-4 on the first lap. One by one they stopped, leaving local man Tom Sheard to win on the highrevving OHV Douglas flat twin.

It was tempting to take the moral high ground by running useless stock brakes and flexy pre-war chassis in the TT, but it was becoming clear that misguided morality did not win races. 'Pa' Norton famously threatened to fire any rider who raced with other than the jerky, short-travel Druid girder fork.

But riders see clearly what better ideas can do. Graham Walker fitted a longer-travel Webb fork with friction damping - and went faster. One by one, the other riders followed his example.

When Walter Moore was hired to make a winner of Norton's OHV 500, he saw it was crippled by nearly useless stock brakes. As British Hub, the usual supplier, could do nothing before the TT, Moore adapted brakes from Ford cars.

When crankpins wallowed loose in soft cast-iron stock engine flywheels, what was a moralist to do? No new bikes would be sold by crowing that their parts, proven inferior in performance, best fit the spirit of the rules. This made the choice a simple one: either race to win or don't race at all. Cast iron flywheels were replaced by heat-treated carbon steel equivalents.

AJS and Velocette saw the value of overhead cam (OHC, but it took them time to make it work. Douglas and Sunbeam both made OHC experiments, but without success. To make bikes finish races, a lot of testing was necessary, and there was a need for development engineers with racing experience. Hire one of the top men and, like it or not, your results improved. Racing was no longer just sporty flat-cap riding on standard bikes. When you fixed what broke in this process, your motorcycle naturally evolved into a purpose-built racing machine.

The shortcomings of drip-feed total-loss oiling drove design toward full pumped recirculating oil systems. A total-loss rider, looking back and seeing no smoke, knew it was time to 'give 'er a shot' of oil with the hand pump. Engines rejected such cretinous schemes by tightening and seizing at speed.

First one maker and then another had spurts of TT success. Douglas had no future in racing because there was no way to cool their rear cylinder, sheltered as it was behind the crankcase and magneto. Sunbeam and Rudge had short-term success too, but it was becoming clear that winning required designing to win - not 'careful assembly' of warmed-over production machines with useless brakes and frames that snapped.

Norton eventually accepted this wholeheartedly and the resulting long list of wins drew criticism that they had 'ruined racing'. In 1931, once they'd got their OHC 500 and 350 performing properly, Nortons were first, second and fourth in the Junior, and 1-2-3 in the Senior, ahead of two Rudges.

Did Norton ruin racing? Experience of the present day in MotoGP and World Superbike tells us clearly that they did not. What they did was build the best bike possible under the rules in force. If anyone

'ruined' racing, it was the rules-makers in failing to set limits like those set out in detail for WorldSBK.

Yetbecause this was all happening for the first time in the sport we can't frown too darkly at the rulesmakers either. The 'spirit of the rules' was made clear in 1911 when pedalling gear was banned and multi-speed gearboxes were deliberately encouraged. The role of racing was to bring forth technologies that would raise the capability of the motorcycle for all users.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 06:43:26 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Reply #42 on: February 12, 2021, 10:10:02 pm
Thank you for the impressively efficient researching efforts AzCal.  :)
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Richard230

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Reply #43 on: February 12, 2021, 10:16:29 pm
So what sort of fpm do the 73mm-stroke pistons of my BMW R1200R achieve at its 9,000 rpm redline? I would expect BMW to design the engine's maximum engine speed to be rather conservative for running at top speed on the Autobahn. I bet it is more than 2500 fpm.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #44 on: February 12, 2021, 10:38:23 pm
So what sort of fpm do the 73mm-stroke pistons of my BMW R1200R achieve at its 9,000 rpm redline? I would expect BMW to design the engine's maximum engine speed to be rather conservative for running at top speed on the Autobahn. I bet it is more than 2500 fpm.
The Pomeroy Dictum isn't intended to be the redline. It is everyday riding rpm guideline for longevity.
A 500 Bullet hits Pomeroy guidelines at 4250 rpm, but it redlines higher.

To answer your question for 73mm stroke and 2500fpm piston speed, it would be 5250 rpm.
At your 9000 rpm redline the piston speed would be 4311 fpm.

A Bullet at 4311 fpm would be at 7300 rpm.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 10:45:55 pm by ace.cafe »
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Richard230

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Reply #45 on: February 12, 2021, 11:42:53 pm
The Pomeroy Dictum isn't intended to be the redline. It is everyday riding rpm guideline for longevity.
A 500 Bullet hits Pomeroy guidelines at 4250 rpm, but it redlines higher.

To answer your question for 73mm stroke and 2500fpm piston speed, it would be 5250 rpm.
At your 9000 rpm redline the piston speed would be 4311 fpm.

A Bullet at 4311 fpm would be at 7300 rpm.

Thanks. I rarely take my BMW past 5000 rpm as that is about as fast as I want to go.
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Reply #46 on: February 23, 2021, 07:14:34 pm
Well what can you say an urban motorcycle for commuters.


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Reply #47 on: March 26, 2021, 06:35:59 pm
Well you hardly ever take a BMW to the red line unless you were on a race track.


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Reply #48 on: March 26, 2021, 08:30:16 pm
Well you hardly ever take a BMW to the red line unless you were on a race track.
...because you'd be doing 100mph!
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


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Reply #49 on: April 15, 2021, 07:30:33 am
I did a 1200KM ride over the last weekend and it is hard to stay cruising at 120 kmph, only once I could go at 120 kmph but it stays steady at 100 kmph.  However mileage takes a big hit if you do continuous 100 kmph, if you really are into mileage


AzCal Retred

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Reply #50 on: April 15, 2021, 05:54:01 pm
That's our first real-world feedback - Thanks!
How is your bike set up? Gearing stock? Any saddlebags? Windscreen? How was the comfort level after a few hours in the saddle? At 100 KPH, what was the normal MPG? These look like nice machines, how are they to live with?
A brace of 1999 Bullets: 1 Red Deluxe, 1 Green Standard. Also, 1 wee orphan 1956 Fire Arrow project.