Author Topic: Stumped on the ignition circuit  (Read 851 times)

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dgurovich

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on: November 29, 2020, 07:24:45 pm
Hmmm.

I have the bike all back together, put gas in it and the starter is working perfectly, except no spark.  I did the checks per the manual and the resistance is correct, there is power to the "+" side of the coil, and that's where I"m stumped.

I have too many old bikes that just have points and I can diagnose quite rapidly.  This one is different. 

I installed a new switch on the handlebar, so I'm wondering if I got a wire crossed there.  I see power going through the ammeter, and all three yellow wires to the alternator are powered up.  So what the heck am I missing? 

Is it possible to put the pickup in backwards in the primary cover?  It seems like it only goes in one way, but.....
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


Adrian II

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Reply #1 on: November 29, 2020, 08:13:01 pm
I posted the link to the workshop manual, I would point out that this does include factory wiring diagrams.  ;)

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dgurovich

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Reply #2 on: November 29, 2020, 09:31:48 pm
I went through the manual and did the resistance checks, but it doesn't show how the sensor fits in the housing. There's power to everything, so I'm thinking that might be the culprit. 
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


Adrian II

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Reply #3 on: November 30, 2020, 10:50:57 am
The TCI trigger unit bolts to the outer primary chain case along with the alternator stator.

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dgurovich

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Reply #4 on: November 30, 2020, 02:12:46 pm
Thanks!  That's the picture I need.
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


dgurovich

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Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 04:52:05 pm
OK.  I'm still stumped.  I want to isolate the ignition circuit, but since it's electronic, I have yet to see a wiring diagram for it.  The only drawings I have seen are for the contact breaker, or they show all the wiring BUT the iginition circuit!

This is such a nice bike, and this is the last piece of the puzzle to get it on the road.  Please help!
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


dgurovich

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Reply #6 on: December 05, 2020, 09:30:57 pm
OK.  Spent the day running down wires and checking everything. It has spark!  Loose fittings.
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


Adrian II

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Reply #7 on: December 05, 2020, 10:32:25 pm
I'm glad you got it running, but once again, here is the link to download the workshop manual.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/core/media/media.nl?id=238414&c=1062795&h=8e3c66022e672056498b&_xt=.pdf

Quote
I want to isolate the ignition circuit, but since it's electronic, I have yet to see a wiring diagram for it.  The only drawings I have seen are for the contact breaker, or they show all the wiring BUT the ignition circuit!

ALL THE WIRING DIAGRAMS ARE IN SECTION 07-3 AND 07-4 ON PAGES 149 AND 150. THE IGNITION CIRCUIT BY ITSELF IS 07-3 ON PAGE 149.

Now can you find it?

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dgurovich

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Reply #8 on: December 06, 2020, 03:35:52 am
Thanks.  I kept looking in section 11, the one titled "Electricals".  I then looked at the Sniden book which had a different set of diagrams.  Appreciate the detail!
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


Citrus

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Reply #9 on: December 19, 2020, 08:58:41 pm
It may be the ignition module itself that has failed ?
If it points to that - yell out as I have a couple spare


Adrian II

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Reply #10 on: December 20, 2020, 03:53:20 pm
Our friend now HAS a spark, he says, see the post above. That said, it's a kind offer.

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dgurovich

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Reply #11 on: April 15, 2021, 06:12:46 pm
It's is running and starting wonderfully. Then it quits after 5 minutes.  It cools off and then does it again.  I'd like to buy a complete soup to nuts ignition and fix this once and for all. 

I'm clueless what to order (2006 Electra).
1966 Matchless G80
1959 Velocette MSS/Thruxton
2019 RE Interceptor
1961 Matchless G12 CSR
2006 RE Bullet Electra
2011 Vespa 300GTV
2006 Vespa 200L


axman88

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Reply #12 on: April 15, 2021, 07:59:47 pm
It's is running and starting wonderfully. Then it quits after 5 minutes.  It cools off and then does it again.  I'd like to buy a complete soup to nuts ignition and fix this once and for all. 

I'm clueless what to order (2006 Electra).
My guess would be that one of the two coils (pickup or spark) in the system is heat sensitive, although 5 minutes seems less time than I'd expect it to take to heat up and cause problems.

I'm no expert, but I'm interested in the ignition system for your 2006, because I believe that the same parts would be what I would use if I wanted to remove the ECU from my 2012 C5 UCE machine.  So take this list as a starting point, to hopefully be confirmed by a more experienced forum member.  These are the components of a complete ignition system.

1)   502037   Rotor contains the reluctor node,  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/10037?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2358   I doubt that this would need to be replaced on your machine, I don't think it's likely to be heat sensitive.  I would need one for my conversion though

2)   144037   Reluctor pickup, aka "Pulsar coil"  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/2120?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2358
   -  This part is also available as part of the Stator assembly #502036,  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/10036?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2358

   -   Rotor plus Stator Assembly are also available as part #147056A  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/33651?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2358   This is how I would try to purchase them for my conversion project, since I basically need everything anyway.

3)   147100  TCI unit    https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/19958?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2362

4)   581028   Spark Delay Unit  I think this gadget protects the kick starter mechanism from backfiring?
 Not sure if you would need to replace this, or I would need to include this?
 https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/10593?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2362

5)    502027   Ignition Coil  If you haven't tried replacing this item already, it would be high on my list of suspects for your problem.    https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/29130?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2362

6)   Spark plug cap  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Spark-Plug-Cap/16358    I'd personally, probably go for a non-resistor type.

I think that's everything, other than electrical wiring, ignition switch, etc, which technically could be considered part of the system, but is, in my opinion, unlikely to be related to your problem.

If hopefully a more experienced member can weigh in and confirm this list, or suggest other, better components and/or note omissions, I'd be happy to help look for alternative sources for those items that may not be available from Hitchcocks..


Adrian II

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Reply #13 on: April 15, 2021, 08:56:41 pm
Going soup to nuts is best done piece by piece, and I'd start with a different coil. A magneto with a failing coil can spark well enough to start an engine when cold but then refuse to start once warmed up, so a stand-alone ignition OEM coil can do the same if it's heading for the bin.

Just a thought, tooseevee on his 500 AVL uses a Pertronix Flamethrower coil, which by all accounts could be something of an upgrade as well as a fix. I think he uses the one with the three ohm resistance, it might be an idea to check exactly which one he uses.

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viczena

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Reply #14 on: April 15, 2021, 10:36:41 pm
Could be ignition coil, Spark plug, Spark plug cap.

Or just a short somewhere in the cables. Around the ignition.

Are you shure your bike quits because of lack of spark? Maybe something with the fuel system?
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