Author Topic: RE Meteor 350 vs. "the competition"  (Read 2075 times)

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derottone

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Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 06:55:22 pm
That's history, today it's more like 27 countries separated by one currency.
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axman88

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Reply #16 on: November 23, 2020, 12:24:21 am
IMHO I think they deliberately made it look more like the 650 power plant.
Maybe, or perhaps, if the engine came from the same mechanical design team, they just started with some of the same 3D models and tweaked the features around as needed, which would natually result in strong design similarity, unless somebody intentionally interfered with it.

I don't design engines, but I do this all the time in Solidworks, because it saves a lot of time.   You can basically get any drawings of the part 3/4 of the way finished, or more, depending on how many features are shared.  Any assigned attributes, like material and finish will carry over.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #17 on: November 23, 2020, 04:34:35 am
Well, it would have been cheaper & more cost effective to put a smaller slug in the existing Himalayan motor that design a whole new motor that "coincidentally" mimics the cases of the popular 650 motor. Style sells - make more of what is selling has always been a popular strategy.
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derottone

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Reply #18 on: November 23, 2020, 12:55:11 pm
IMO in a naked bike the engine is a part of the styling if not the eye catcher number one. The 411cc engine looks relatively good in a Himalayan and the new 350cc just fine in a retro styled bike too. Swap them and it will be like a Schweizer Schnitzel with Pasta combination. Now hopefully I won't get accused of being racist, talking things.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 01:09:56 pm by derottone »
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Richard230

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Reply #19 on: November 23, 2020, 02:08:27 pm
I found it interesting that one of the Indian YouTube reviewers was complaining that the new Meteor 350 engine only has two valves. They felt having a four valve design would have offered better combustion chamber efficiency and potentially a higher rev limit and thereby more power, which they felt was somewhat lacking in the new design. Doesn't the Himalayan engine have a 4 valve head? If that is the case it makes AzCalRetred's comments even more relevant.
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axman88

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Reply #20 on: November 23, 2020, 05:42:57 pm
Doesn't the Himalayan engine have a 4 valve head? If that is the case it makes AzCalRetred's comments even more relevant.
I'm pretty sure Himalayan has only two valves.  Here's a picture:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/motorbikes/1528145d1468336415-royal-enfield-himalayan-comprehensive-review-desi-adventure-tourer-rocker-shaft-replacement-12072016_6.jpg

The 650s have 4 per cylinder.  Here's a picture:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/superbikes-imports/1825098d1543997518-royal-enfield-interceptor-continental-650-edit-launched-rs-2-50-2-65-lakhs-alternator-clutch.jpeg

The CAD images of the 350 "J" show again, 2 valves per cylinder:
https://youtu.be/87sJdeNLsa0?t=487


AzCal Retred

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Reply #21 on: November 23, 2020, 07:23:58 pm
Ace and Bullet Whisperer certainly don't seem to have much issue with making real world power with a two-valve motor. If the design happens to be a high revving short stroke multi, then more & smaller valves give the opportunity to increase total valve perimeter and reduce valve weight, all playing into a high RPM "wide" oversquare cylinder design. Light valves wear less at normal road speeds, mostly an advantage for the factory by avoiding valve issues to the feckless owner crowd. In the wayback the "new" 10,000 RPM 5-valve Yamaha motor valve adjustment interval was a stupefying 20,000 miles. That's 4-8 years for the "average" rider, and essentially a "lifetime" as the normal bike changes hands every 3-5 years.  The Meteor isn't that motor. Even if opened up to 500cc it's still nearly "square". High RPM isn't really a forte for undersquare motors, they are all about torque & fuel efficiency. Two valves on a Meteor or Himalayan have zero real world effect aside from making valve adjustment time go by faster. 2<4, eh?

As far as the Indian reviewer's "not enough valves" comment, Kawasaki & Yamaha apparently sell a full product line. (https://kawasaki-india.com/) https://www.yamaha-motor-india.com/) No shortage of highly developed 4-valve & 5-valve machines there. Royal Enfield has a nice market segment, the last thing you want to do is start a horsepower war with the Big 4.
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derottone

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Reply #22 on: November 23, 2020, 07:38:30 pm
What's a horsepower war? Most hp/cc? A rc model engine beats them all...

C.Capacity : 3,49 cc
Power: 2.90HP R.P.M. 40.100 Rpm
Bore : 16,26 mm
Stroke : 16,80 mm
Ports : 9
Crankshaft :  14,0 mm Turbo Tuned
carburettor :  9mm metal + reducer
Bougie : Turbo
Main Bearing : Ceramic
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #23 on: November 23, 2020, 08:11:46 pm
From the ancient Hailwood Honda 250/6, 125/5 & 50cc twin to the current crop of 170 MPH out-of-the-crate Suzuki Hayabusa, Kawasaki ZX12(14?) & ??, Japan has built a long string of "affordable" giant killers. Folks still buy BMW's, Triumphs, Moto Guzzi's, Ducati's, Royal Enfields, but not for their absolute asphalt shredding prowess. I've posted pics of motorcycles equipped with aircraft radials here, but those are curiosities, not track (or street, really) worthy. India mostly buys motorcycles for practical reasons - fuel economy, longevity, ease of maintenance. Enfield has a formula that fits that model well. If it changes, then they will have to start out-Japanese-ing the Japanese. The H'ness is a shot across Enfields bow from Honda.
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derottone

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Reply #24 on: November 23, 2020, 08:33:25 pm
High RPM isn't really a forte for undersquare motors, they are all about torque & fuel efficiency. Two valves on a Meteor or Himalayan have zero real world effect aside from making valve adjustment time go by faster. 2<4, eh?

So you saying they went with ohc instead of the reliable pushrods with self adjusting lifters mainly to improve the business performance of their certified dealers?   ;)
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Richard230

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Reply #25 on: November 23, 2020, 09:14:10 pm
My 2002 Yamaha FZ1 has a 5 valve head. The valve check interval is 27K miles. I checked mine at 24K and they were all within spec.  Good thing too as I would never want to try to adjust the fifth little tiny valve. What a project that would be. It was so tiny I could barely see it.   ::)

The fellow who complained that the Meteor only had two valves thought the engine would make more power with four valves and he also thought that Royal Enfield was just trying to save money by building an engine with just two valves.  Sounds like a real RE expert to me.  ;)
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ace.cafe

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Reply #26 on: November 24, 2020, 01:38:09 pm
Many consumers are influenced by buzzwords. They read something in a magazine which is a feature on a superbike, and then think it should be on anything/everything.

Regarding combustion chamber depth for efficiency, that is largely determined by valve angle, not valve count.

Rev limit is largely determined by piston stroke length in this case, not valve count.

He is accurate that 2-valve layout is less costly than 4-valve.
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Warwick

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Reply #27 on: November 24, 2020, 08:08:58 pm
The engine layout is likely built to satisfy the Indian market which likes the 'thump'. Although it may not have the power for international markets, i doubt whether international markets were at the front of the design brief, I give RE credit for designing and building a bike that stays true to the requirements of their primary customers i.e. domestics Indians. In addition, the bullet is historically a 350.
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dcolak

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Reply #28 on: December 13, 2020, 06:06:55 pm
In an anticipatory thread for the RE Meteor, I marveled on how close its specs seems to be to the new Honda H'ness 350.

         RE Meteor J 350                       Honda H'ness CB350
               349 cc, single-cylinder           348.36 cc, single-cylinder,
               20.2 PS                                21.0 PS
               72 mm x 85.8                       70.3 x 90
               air / oil cooled                       air cooled
               counterbalance shaft             counterbalance shaft
               5 speed trans                         5 speed trans

Here the two are in some friendly competition, comparing roll-on acceleration in every gear.  These two look very well matched to me, with the Honda having the advantage in 1-3, while its taller gearing in 4th and 5th seem to place it at somewhat of a disadvantage in the high gears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FBzOyt9wjw

I don't see much advantage to the existence of another ratio in these bikes.  They both seem to run out of steam above around 100kph and top out about 120 - 125 kph, and taking quite some time to get there.  With the torque band, starting low and continuing rather flatly right up until the limiter kicks in that I recall seeing, the presence of another, intermediate ratio wouldn't seem to serve much purpose.  I wonder if it might not be possible to reach the power-limited top speed in 4th gear, without hitting the rev. limiter?  I look forward to publication of the ratios, and illustrations and videos of the engine innards.

US riders would likely find this performance lacking, as the bulk of our expressway traffic in some areas will be traveling 120kph or faster.  It does however, appear to be quite adequate for Indian highways.  I cringe every time I see a U-tube video like this, with riders lingering stationary on the side of a highway, in what for americans would be the fast lane, or performing a "speed test" on a road with pedestrians and animals.  On the other hand, I can't argue with what appears to be a lot of personal freedom.  Do the police in India even have patrol cars?

My friend would like to buy the meteor 350 but, now I read it runs out of steam at 120 km/h. I had a Kymco Venox 250 that run at 140 km/h without problems. How come metor with 350cc is worse than Kymco Venox with 250cc?
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Nitrowing

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Reply #29 on: December 13, 2020, 06:53:11 pm
Define 'competition'...
'Under 400cc bikes with old styling'?
'350cc bikes that cost $4k'?
'Old styled bikes under $4k'?

As a direct competitor, the Honda wins hands down. Reliability, every day of the week.
Historically, the 2 or 4 valve argument is easily solved by looking at the track...
2 valve GS engines were always favoured over the 4 valve GSX on the drag strip where torque is king. Of course, as technology marched on, the 'out of the box' performance of the 1200 Bandit, then the 'busa pushed the old 2 valves to the back of the shed.

Back on the highway, a little 350cc would probably be best with 4 valves and a 6 speed box (unless you're a sunny Sunday backroad blapper). Look at something like the Suzuki 350 Goose (a bike I adore and the first standard roadbike to enable a rider to get their elbow down!).
The Goose is an old bike, not a pretend old like the H'ness or Meteor - so the new pair should be able to trounce a Goose in every situation; acceleration, top speed, handling, braking, mpg, service intervals, everything.

If the 'competition' is smashed by a 30 year old Suzuki, I'm not remotely interested in getting my wallet out.
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry