Author Topic: Build thread for my 865  (Read 8742 times)

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Gremlinsteve

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on: September 03, 2020, 11:46:06 pm
Some pics of the cyl head as delivered

Starting to work on it tonight


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #1 on: September 03, 2020, 11:46:55 pm
Pics


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #2 on: September 03, 2020, 11:47:36 pm
Pic


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #3 on: September 03, 2020, 11:49:41 pm
Pic3


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #4 on: September 03, 2020, 11:50:18 pm
This has got some really deep bowls. Very nice. They are tight so I can definitely open them up to take advantage of the valve size



Gremlinsteve

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Reply #5 on: September 04, 2020, 12:19:47 am
Pics


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #6 on: September 04, 2020, 04:19:32 pm
Flow bench setup


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #7 on: September 04, 2020, 04:20:10 pm
Pics


NVDucati

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Reply #8 on: September 04, 2020, 04:46:37 pm
Flow bench setup
Nice ! I assume those springs are just for the bench.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 04:57:41 pm
Pic


ace.cafe

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Reply #10 on: September 04, 2020, 06:52:56 pm
This will be good!

Since the photos limit my observation, I have a couple questions.

1) I seems they sunk the valves into the seats deeper than I typically see. What do you think?

2) Can't see much of the port floor. Is the short turn as sharp as it looks?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 06:58:30 pm by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #11 on: September 04, 2020, 07:54:56 pm
Yes. There is room for improvement everywhere

The floors have a sharp turn to them


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #12 on: September 08, 2020, 08:24:09 pm
Got the intake bowls ported and polished.  The thing to remember is these flow numbers are via a port that is barley the size of a quarter

1 inch by 1.25

As you can see the flow has pick up decently


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #13 on: September 08, 2020, 08:25:26 pm
Bowls


ace.cafe

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Reply #14 on: September 08, 2020, 09:23:09 pm
Looks like plenty of flow at the lifts near max valve lift.
Your work looks nice and clean.

Are you interested in questions or comments?
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #15 on: September 08, 2020, 09:27:16 pm
I’ll take question and comments yes


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #16 on: September 08, 2020, 09:29:34 pm
Regarding the valve. I’m not happy with the exhaust valve I’m sure they had a reason to run a nail head valve.  Maybe to gain area under the valve for low lift numbers

I’m wondering what a tulip valve will do in the exhaust side


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #17 on: September 08, 2020, 09:50:47 pm
Well some of my backcut angles did literally nothing. Port is whistling like crazy. Mac tool guy said holy crap what was that....! Lolol.


Lots of velocity


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #18 on: September 08, 2020, 09:52:43 pm
A 1 inch sharp edge orifice flows 88-90 cfm. Our intake ports flow a hair under 190. The intake opening is 1.125x 1.060. You do the math.  I’m gonna try a couple more things to see what else I can get. 


ace.cafe

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Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 10:09:48 pm
I’ll take question and comments yes

Okay.
From the flow chart we are seeing essentially a shift in flow away from low lift and toward better high lift flow.
I am using .354" figure as max valve lift with S&S cams.

It is doing real well at .250" and higher.
There is a significant drop of 10 cfm at .100" lift.
Not too concerned about the smaller drop at .050" because not much flow is happening yet.
Your average flow over the working lift curve is only 2cfm over stock. If you could pull up that dip at .100", you could increase the average flow to 4cfm over stock.

Do you have any cause isolated for the drop at .100" lift?
At what lift does the valve clear the short side chamber wall by .200"? Maybe there might be some shrouding by the chamber wall at low lift, but clears out as the valve moves further clear of the chamber wall?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 10:14:26 pm by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #20 on: September 08, 2020, 11:43:15 pm
No cause isolated yet other than experimenting with valve angles


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #21 on: September 08, 2020, 11:45:32 pm
Stock bore versus a roughed in marking where the 865 kit will place the bore


ace.cafe

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Reply #22 on: September 09, 2020, 12:01:37 am
Looks like there is room on the chamber wall for unshrouding on the short side if the chamber wall is too near the edge of the valve.

We always used .200" as a minimum figure for that.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #23 on: September 09, 2020, 12:40:39 am
Yea
I’ll unshroud that area.  Trust me I’ve just begun


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #24 on: September 09, 2020, 01:55:53 am
Plus room for mor valve job. The lap line is still not the best


derottone

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Reply #25 on: September 09, 2020, 08:15:22 am
Stock bore versus a roughed in marking where the 865 kit will place the bore

The 865 bore appears to be very close to the water jacket channel.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #26 on: September 09, 2020, 05:58:59 pm
I have a video of the head on the bench
It has a beautiful sound.  Sorry I can’t post it


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #27 on: September 09, 2020, 08:53:36 pm
Yes. The 865 bore is just at max

The bore size increases by right at 1/2 inch or 13mm

Here is the exhaust side.   Going to keep plugging away at this thing


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #28 on: September 09, 2020, 09:02:05 pm
Candy


ace.cafe

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Reply #29 on: September 09, 2020, 10:31:21 pm
Nice looking short turn!
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #30 on: September 09, 2020, 10:37:52 pm
Pics


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #31 on: September 11, 2020, 09:29:41 pm
Exhaust work


ace.cafe

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Reply #32 on: September 11, 2020, 11:15:26 pm
Exhaust work
They look like they should flow real well.
Do you have a target for intake vs exhaust flow percentage in mind?
The Bullet singles seem to like exhaust flow bench figures about 80-85% of intake flow in their crossflow hemi config.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #33 on: September 11, 2020, 11:36:52 pm
Exhaust flow


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #34 on: September 11, 2020, 11:45:28 pm
Some pics of an exhaust valve


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #35 on: September 11, 2020, 11:46:16 pm
Pics


ace.cafe

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Reply #36 on: September 11, 2020, 11:51:13 pm
Exhaust flow

Real good ! Picked up flow everywhere. Exhaust averages about 90% of intake.

Port looks nice.
I didn't know that they used a D port in this head.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #37 on: September 12, 2020, 12:11:05 am
Yes they d ported the head
The exhaust moves air

Flow work is still using the stock port exit diameter too. It wasn’t enlarged


ace.cafe

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Reply #38 on: September 12, 2020, 01:17:12 am
Yes they d ported the head
The exhaust moves air

Flow work is still using the stock port exit diameter too. It wasn’t enlarged
That's very good. Should bode well for high torque.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #39 on: September 12, 2020, 02:30:14 am
I can’t post video
But I have video of the whistle she’s making on the flow bench

Shows that the velocity is great


ace.cafe

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Reply #40 on: September 12, 2020, 05:25:54 am
I have been doing some rough calculations in my head.
I think you are just about right for flow at your 865cc displacement. Wouldn't hurt to get a few cfm more, but it should just about do.

Where I think this build will bottleneck is at the cam. I think that S&S cam is too short duration to get 7000 rpm out of 865cc. I would add 15 degrees to both ends of the intake duration to get a full rev range on this build. In other words, I think open@ 15°BTDC and close at least @45°ABDC(maybe even 50) at the .050" lift points will be needed to get the rev range up where the 7000 rpm redline is intended.

I think the S&S cam is a torquey type cam, not a real revvy cam, judging by the duration.

Our 500 flows more and has longer duration, and we peak at 6000 rpm, and hold to 6500 with 254° duration @.050".

Since not much other cam selection is available, I guess we'll see how it does with that cam.

You might also try raising the port roof a bit to get some more cross-sectional area because that small port is probably going to run into a high velocity issue early in the rev range with that ~30%displacement increase, and the cam has insufficient duration to add the flow back at the closing end.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 05:44:10 am by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #41 on: September 12, 2020, 05:37:48 am
I’d concur
I also don’t like the mild 353 lift

I think this head might touch 200 intake but it’s useless because I can’t swing the valve open that far using this cam

I’ve made roughly 25/30 hits on the bench

What I find interesting is unshrouding the chamber did not help at all on the intake flow


ace.cafe

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Reply #42 on: September 12, 2020, 05:47:19 am
I’d concur
I also don’t like the mild 353 lift

I think this head might touch 200 intake but it’s useless because I can’t swing the valve open that far using this cam

I’ve made roughly 25/30 hits on the bench

What I find interesting is unshrouding the chamber did not help at all on the intake flow
Then the short turn is tight, and flow is unsupported by the chamber wall. It is mostly going to flow out the long side for tumble anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.

I would do a velocity test. I have a feeling cross-sectional area will need to go up a bit for 865cc.  I would do it on the roof for a slightly raised port.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #43 on: September 12, 2020, 06:15:47 am
Short turn is tight at .770


ace.cafe

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Reply #44 on: September 12, 2020, 07:05:18 am
I’d concur
I also don’t like the mild 353 lift

I think this head might touch 200 intake but it’s useless because I can’t swing the valve open that far using this cam

I’ve made roughly 25/30 hits on the bench

What I find interesting is unshrouding the chamber did not help at all on the intake flow
I notice flow flattens at .350" lift mostly anyways. I see this with most Enfields. The port flattens the flow at higher lifts. All the Bullets are also like that.

After your porting, the flow goes a little more up at .400" which is a benefit, but the cam can't use it.

Our experience shows these ports can benefit from raised roof. And with a port entry size 1.125" x 1.060" with a 432.5cc cylinder volume 33% larger than stock, the port is going to have to flow a lot more air thru that relatively small size which means velocity will be high. As rpms increase, it is probably going to start choking well before you get to redline and that will affect cylinder filling.. Normally, this can be somewhat made up by later intake valve closing, but we don't have that with this cam.
So, I recommend checking velocity, keep it under 400, and it will probably need more cross-sectional area in the port and intake tract. I think it will need to be equivalent to 1.125" round area, at least. When we did the 700(stroked to 750)Super Meteor twin heads, we used 32mm(1.25") ports and carbs.
I don't like to make it too big or it loses lower rpm torque, but it does need to be enough.
Our best results came from raising the roof.
Check it for yourself and see what you think it needs.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 07:53:35 am by ace.cafe »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #45 on: September 12, 2020, 02:38:36 pm
I looked at your photo of the stock intake from your other thread. It appears that the manifold ID is quite a bit larger than the port, and it has a relief cut for the injector spray in the top.
What is that diameter, and might it be suitable for a gasket matching strategy?

Also, what size diameter are the throttle bodies?

I just feel that the port is just too small for the displacement. I really estimate that 32mm would be about right.
Maybe just try a very slight port roof raising, just a little, and see if it helps the port shriek?

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 02:48:25 pm by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #46 on: September 12, 2020, 05:52:37 pm
Ready for assembly


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #47 on: September 12, 2020, 06:18:46 pm
I feel like this weeks worth of work is really good results. Maybe a another head and a couple more aggressive grinds and I may exceed 200 cfm


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #48 on: September 12, 2020, 06:21:01 pm
I also agree on raising the roof
I’m limited to stock t bodies for now though


ace.cafe

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Reply #49 on: September 12, 2020, 06:28:11 pm
Cool!
Let's see how she goes.
 8)

I'm gonna guess 60hp at the rear wheel.
 :)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 06:40:24 pm by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #50 on: September 12, 2020, 06:50:54 pm
I’m shooting for 70


ace.cafe

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Reply #51 on: September 12, 2020, 07:27:02 pm
You'll need some rpms for that.
Let's see where it's at with what you have.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #52 on: September 12, 2020, 08:21:06 pm
Anyone interested in port work get with me
I’m game for doing more of these things


ace.cafe

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Reply #53 on: September 13, 2020, 04:49:02 pm
Anyone interested in port work get with me
I’m game for doing more of these things
You're the first into the game, and you showed all your work and documentation, which is a very good presentation.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #54 on: September 13, 2020, 06:22:30 pm
Small fish I am


derottone

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Reply #55 on: September 13, 2020, 06:45:13 pm
865cc is going to be massive engine, if you land up with let's say over 60hp at the wheel a dual disk front brake would be neat.

Good on RE that they replaced the cropped spoke hub on the rear with something similar as on the front wheel with straight ones. Nothing more annoying than snapped spokes.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #56 on: October 01, 2020, 04:15:59 am
Well.  A quick update


I’m awaiting my cyl the be bored and then have the new liners installed
Machine shop I’m using will be done this week I hop


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Reply #57 on: November 14, 2020, 05:48:06 pm
Question, it appears you've needed to do a lot of additional work to ports, valves, possibly new throttle body, etc. to get optimal performance from the 865. Was the kit not designed to be plug and play? What I mean is, is it understood by manufacturer and consumer that you cannot just bore out for the new cylinder sleeves, replace the pistons and then EFI tune for quality performance? I'm interested in exploring a big bore option, but this is well beyond my engineering knowledge and I don't have a shop I trust to blindly follow into this type of work.

So the real root inspiration for this - would the 750 kit require less additional work than the 865? What I'd ideally be after is a big bore kit, coupled with S&S cam, EFI tuner, open headers and cat S&S mufflers (at the end of the day, I do care about running my motorcycle with unrestricted emissions). That's it. Can this be accomplished effectively by just boring out for the 750 cylinder sleeves, replacing the pistons, replacing the cam and then tuning the EFI? A little adjustment beyond that aside, no other engineering to ports and valves and boring other parts of the engine to change characteristics and its performance.

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread from Steve's 865 project, but it seems to me that the best engineering eyes are on this thread and I'm hoping for a knowledgeable response. And please, to the others, I don't care what you would or wouldn't do or what other bike you could buy with the money, etc. Please save it.


ace.cafe

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Reply #58 on: November 14, 2020, 06:45:59 pm
If I can be permitted to jump in about your question, the answer is yes, you can just do the barrel/piston, or you could do barrel/piston/cam, and an EFI tune to suit.
That can be done.

However, there are certain things to be expected from certain mods, in terms of engine behavior.
With a big bore kit and tune, the basic result will be much higher compression, resulting in higher torque/hp thru much of the rpm range, but the rpms for peak tq and peak hp will be somewhat lower than before. The overall rev range will be shifted downward due to bigger displacement being served by the same breathing capacity as before.
So yes, more tq and hp at the revs you can still reach, but lower max rpms than before. More of a puller than a revver.

Add a cam, and it can make up some of those lost rpms by providing more breathing time for the cylinder to fill, even if the head still is unmodified.

Add some port modification, and the revs and power curve can climb higher yet, due to more flow into the cylinder during the time allotted by the cam.

And each stage would need its own tune.

You can take it to whatever stage you want, but you should be aware of the effects you get at each stage. These are just basic descriptions given, but are intended to provide general expectations from certain mod stages.

Hope that helps.
Obviously, I don't intend to be the only responder to the question, and I look forward to hearing what others may have to say on the topic.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 06:59:27 pm by ace.cafe »
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NVDucati

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Reply #59 on: November 14, 2020, 07:11:01 pm
Question, it appears you've needed to do a lot of additional work to ports, valves, possibly new throttle body, etc. to get optimal performance from the 865. Was the kit not designed to be plug and play? What I mean is, is it understood by manufacturer and consumer that you cannot just bore out for the new cylinder sleeves, replace the pistons and then EFI tune for quality performance? I'm interested in exploring a big bore option, but this is well beyond my engineering knowledge and I don't have a shop I trust to blindly follow into this type of work. /SNIP/

This video (Reverly Cycles) gives a overview and more specifically speaks to you question at about 7 minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7nHqVu5npE
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Reply #60 on: November 14, 2020, 08:34:14 pm
Thanks, Ace. That was super helpful. It seems from your explanation that the 750 will interact with the stock engine head better than the 865 as it doesn't change the displacement as significantly. I'm guessing it's not quite as simple as all that, but being closer in displacement would seem to align its breathing closer to the 650 than the 865 from 650 transition. I would love to see more about the end results using stock engine heads and throttle bodies, but it's just not out there at this point, at least not that I've seen.

NV, thanks for the link. I've watched that as well. They didn't provide any evidence that the motor was or will be working at a high level with smooth power bands. I understand they are professionals and from their total process transparency, I would expect nothing less. I just wanted to ask some questions here to see if there were any opinions about running that 865 with stock throttle bodies, no port work, etc. But yeah, the setup they put together is just about exactly what I have in mind. I wish they could have shown the dyno results on that build. I'm so curious.

Speaking again to their professional appearance, if I had a shop like Revelry Cycles in New York, I would definitely follow their lead. In my experience thus far, the two RE dealers and service centers in NYC are disorganized at best. That isn't exactly a vote of confidence for trusting their navigation through uncharted waters.


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Reply #61 on: November 14, 2020, 08:43:31 pm


NV, thanks for the link. I've watched that as well. They didn't provide any evidence that the motor was or will be working at a high level with smooth power bands. I understand they are professionals and from their total process transparency, I would expect nothing less. I just wanted to ask some questions here to see if there were any opinions about running that 865 with stock throttle bodies, no port work, etc. But yeah, the setup they put together is just about exactly what I have in mind. I wish they could have shown the dyno results on that build. I'm so curious.

Speaking again to their professional appearance, if I had a shop like Revelry Cycles in New York, I would definitely follow their lead. In my experience thus far, the two RE dealers and service centers in NYC are disorganized at best. That isn't exactly a vote of confidence for trusting their navigation through uncharted waters.
Yeah, NYC. As you likely know, dealerships are rarely engine builders. Maybe you can ping S&S and see if there is anyone fairly near you who has bought / installed multiple kits.
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Reply #62 on: November 14, 2020, 09:20:51 pm
Yeah, if it's just (relative statement, I know) bore the cylinder, swap the cam and tune the EFI, I have a shop I trust for that. If it's engineering port angles and custom designed head work, that'd be a no-go. And the shop I have in mind is an official S&S parts dealer that does fantastic engine work. Fabrication? That's another story. They butchered my partner's '76 CB750 on a simple frame hoop and custom fender job.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #63 on: November 16, 2020, 12:42:47 am
After about a month of waiting my machine shop called and told me there still working on getting my cyl bore liners pressed in

It is supposed to be complicated


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Reply #64 on: December 13, 2020, 04:31:02 am
I'm still exploring options. Santina at Revelry was kind enough to offer some advice. She recommended that for an around town and highway motorcycle, just fitting the high-compression pistons with s&s cam and Powertronic tuner would be most suitable. That prices out about $3k by Brooklyn shop prices. I've also asked what their engine builder can tell me about how well aspirated the stock setup it for the bore and stroke figures on the 750 kit. Still waiting on a response there. But for the 865 without head, valve and throttle body work, you're sacrificing about 15-20 hp.

I know this thread is specific to your build gremlinsteve, but I figured we could keep the conversation about engine build content here while we wait for progress updates on yours.


ace.cafe

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Reply #65 on: December 13, 2020, 06:15:48 am
I'm still exploring options. Santina at Revelry was kind enough to offer some advice. She recommended that for an around town and highway motorcycle, just fitting the high-compression pistons with s&s cam and Powertronic tuner would be most suitable. That prices out about $3k by Brooklyn shop prices. I've also asked what their engine builder can tell me about how well aspirated the stock setup it for the bore and stroke figures on the 750 kit. Still waiting on a response there. But for the 865 without head, valve and throttle body work, you're sacrificing about 15-20 hp.

I know this thread is specific to your build gremlinsteve, but I figured we could keep the conversation about engine build content here while we wait for progress updates on yours.
It all comes down to breathing.
You are going to get the power that the breathing will permit. Basically, you will run out of power when it runs out of breath. It will happen at lower rpms with bigger displacement unless it breathes better.
The cam lets it breathe more by extending the time the valve is open, and how far the valve is open. But port flow work lets more air in during the whole valve cycle, if it done right.
As you noted, a combination of both typically works out best if the cam/port match is good.

The higher compression piston is needed with the cam because of the later intake valve closing that the cam has. The later that the intake valve closes, the shorter the effective compression stroke is, after the intake valve is sealed. So, a piston with more static compression ratio makes up for that, which really helps out especially in the low and mid rpms.

Also, the bigger displacement will give higher compression to the extent that more cylinder volume of air gets compressed into the same size combustion chamber. So take that into account as well.

The 650 currently peaks hp at around 6500 rpm. If you bump displacement to 750, that needs about a 15% breathing increase to keep the hp peak at 6500. If you want to peak hp at higher rpms, then more breathing is needed.

Steve bumped the max port flow about 15%, and put the cam in.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 06:40:11 am by ace.cafe »
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Reply #66 on: December 14, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
Thanks, Ace. So I guess my curiosity here is in relationship to the 15% increase. I'm calculating that the 15% increase needed in airflow is related to the 15% increase in volumetric combustion: 650cc vs. 750cc ~ 14.4% difference. I have absolutely no idea what airflow increase is possible using the combination of cam, high flow air filter and free flow exhaust. Is it possible that the net gain in airflow is near the 15% increase necessary to allow the 750 to fully breathe? Is net airflow even the total picture or is port airflow specifically a figure that requires 15% gain in order for the 750 to properly breathe? Or I guess another way of looking at it, does all that airflow potential created by cam, air filter and exhaust get choked by the stock port size preventing a net 15% increase?

As always, your input is much appreciated. I think I'm learning quite a bit and getting a better handle on what's involved here. Thanks again for taking the time.


ace.cafe

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Reply #67 on: December 14, 2020, 08:58:03 pm
Okay, its a little bit technical, but I'll try to make it understandable.

First, yes, the 15% airflow increase is based on about 15% displacement increase. Its a ballpark figure because I just used Steve's max flow figures vs the stock max flow figures. In reality there is a flow curve over the range of valve lift that I didn't calculate in my post above. A shot from the hip, as it were. Everything I write here is estimates, which I suspect would be pretty close to reality, but not guaranteed.

Anyway, that is the basic jist of it if standard cams were still used, and the modded ports gave the extra 15% airflow. It should allow the rpm range to be around the same as when it was a 650 with stock airflow.

When you put cams into the mix, things get interactive. The cam profile dictates a lot of the behavior, and in the case of the S&S cam, it has longer duration at both ends of the intake cycle, so it gives capacity to rev higher from that, plus give more torque from higher valve lift.  The overall flow into the cylinder increases from longer open time and higher lift giving more flow(assuming the port isn't maxxed out at lower lift). So, this can give more revs and torque overall, even with the same port as before, as long as the port isn't dramatically undersized. If you increase the port flow by 15%, AND add a cam like S&S, it should be able to reach a higher peak torque and peak power figure at somewhat higher rpms than before the cam was added.

Now comes the port/cam match.
It is common to think that just making the port a lot larger will do the job, but that isn't the best way to approach it unless max rpm power is the only goal. If you want good throttle response and power delivery over the full range, then you have to pay attention to port/cam match. This basically means to make the port big enough, but not too big, to reach the desired goal.

General theory is that inlet tracts want to be as uniform as possible, without unnecessary changes in port cross-section or diameter which cause changes in airspeed up/down as the air flows in. So, you can look at your throttle body diameter, and that should be your maximum cross-sectional area, keep it all the same as possible up to a point where there is something physical preventing that, or you can make a small reduction in cross-sectional area right around the injector spray area to get the speed up in that area for atomization. Your minimum cross-sectional area(MCSA) will ultimately determine how fast the port can flow before reaching a "choking" speed where it can't flow any faster than that. That is the point where you have reached torque peak of max flow into the engine. After that point, port speed is high enough to give more inertia filling, or "ramcharging" effects after BDC while the valve is still open. The later the valve stays open, the longer the inertia filling can take place, and it keeps filling in more and more at the end of the cycle until it can't do it any more, and there you reach peak hp rpm. Then the tq is falling faster than rpm can increase, so your hp also drops off fairly quickly after that, just like you see on a dyno chart.

So if you are retaining the stock 34mm throttle body size, that is pretty much going to set your max port size and speeds, and the cam duration with its overlap and intake valve closing timing is going to set how far the engine will rev past peak tq rpm before reaching peak hp rpm. The longer the valve is open after BDC, the more revs are theoretically possible from a breathing viewpoint.

The port/cam match is a combo that gives a small enough port to keep port speeds up decently at lower rpms so that you don't lose too much grunt down low, but still is big enough to reach your high rpm goals. A big port flows slower, so that is the symptom you see in some race bikes that are dogs at low rpms. Conversely too small a port limits your overall intake flow so you can't reach your high rpm goals.

So, as I already mentioned, if you are sticking with the stock throttle body size, you are gonna basically define your max port cross-sectional area by that dimension. Minimum CSA will probably be around the injector spray area, and then it will expand a bit into the bowls behind the valves. That's the general idea.

The cam profile is already set by S&S so it is what it is. Likely that there will be plenty enough port speeds for snappy throttle at all rpms with a 34mm TB and a good porting job.

4 valve heads can often use throat area as much as 91% of the valve diameter. Do a multi-angle valve job with 15° or less change in angle at each cut.

If you do plan to keep 34mm TB size, I would take a close look at what Steve is doing because he is straightening out the port for more flow and using the cams along with it to work with the higher port speeds ABDC. I think that is a sound scientific approach for a street bike application. Of course, free flow intake and exhaust is also part of any performance package.


I hope that was okay to understand.
:)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 09:23:30 pm by ace.cafe »
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Reply #68 on: December 14, 2020, 10:40:30 pm
This is an incredibly interesting/informative thread and much much appreciated.  I stumbled on Revelry Cycles YouTube channel after their first video and have been following it avidly ever since.  A question to Jared: do you mind mentioning the name of the shop in NYC you trust to install the big bore kit? Thanks to all.


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Reply #69 on: December 15, 2020, 02:46:03 am
So happy that my thread is helping people
I plan on using my stock throttle bodies
While a limiting factor it should make for quick acceleration and such

Throttle response should be outstanding


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Reply #70 on: December 15, 2020, 02:49:18 am
Yeah Boylan, Frank at Motorgrrl is an expert engine builder. Just be wary of cosmetic fabrication. Frank has no part in that, but my experiences have not been good. For engine build performance, Frank should do you right.


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Reply #71 on: December 15, 2020, 02:56:02 am
And yes, Ace, that was again super helpful. I definitely feel like I've got a better grasp on how it all fits together and the important points of interaction within the engine. I'm not really any clearer on what this specific engine's ports are capable of once fitted with the performance cam and how that would work with the 750 kit, but I understand that's not really the information you're trying to provide. You're giving the more important fundamental concepts that govern the "how" of those things functioning together for optimal performance. That's actually more useful because I can carry that with me to future bikes and considerations.

And yes, Steve, this is exactly the type of conversation I want to be having in a forum like this. Thank you for starting the thread and sharing your build process and knowledge.


ace.cafe

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Reply #72 on: December 15, 2020, 03:34:14 am
And yes, Ace, that was again super helpful. I definitely feel like I've got a better grasp on how it all fits together and the important points of interaction within the engine. I'm not really any clearer on what this specific engine's ports are capable of once fitted with the performance cam and how that would work with the 750 kit, but I understand that's not really the information you're trying to provide. You're giving the more important fundamental concepts that govern the "how" of those things functioning together for optimal performance. That's actually more useful because I can carry that with me to future bikes and considerations.

And yes, Steve, this is exactly the type of conversation I want to be having in a forum like this. Thank you for starting the thread and sharing your build process and knowledge.
Jared,
I can't give accurate numbers on this cam with stock port information because I just haven't tested the combo.

I can give Steve's flow chart info of 166 cfm peak on the stock intake port, which is the more critical port to look at. The stock bike peaks about 42 rear wheel hp at 6500 rpm with that port.

Add the 750 kit with pistons and cam on the same stock head and as a guesstimate, I would say maybe around 50 rwhp, off the top of my head. Very rough guesstimate.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 03:44:30 am by ace.cafe »
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Reply #73 on: December 17, 2020, 03:18:37 pm
I've got a related if novice question for you guys.  At what point would you feel the need to upgrade the clutch?  In a separate vein, I'm hoping Revelry Cycles does a video at some point on their big valve cylinder head.


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Reply #74 on: December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 pm
I've got a related if novice question for you guys.  At what point would you feel the need to upgrade the clutch?  In a separate vein, I'm hoping Revelry Cycles does a video at some point on their big valve cylinder head.

Without trying to sound like a wise ass, which isn't my intention, the short answer is when it slips. I'd think the stock clutch could certainly withstand an increase in both torque and horsepower of 10 to 15% right off the bat. Back in the day I built a few big bore/stroker motors out of XL 350 Honda's for dirt track use. I ran both 412 and 420 motors, which made considerably more power than the the stockers, and always ran stock clutches and springs with no problems. If I were building an 865 motor, I think I'd be inclined to upgrade the clutch and most certainly the springs, but if you told me the stock clutch worked fine with the 750 kit, I'd have no problem believing you. I think the bigger issue would concern how the bike is used. Drag racing is a killer, but for normal street riding, especially on a bike as low geared as the Interceptor I think the stock clutch might work fine, at least until it didn't.

But that's just my semi-educated opinion, like you I'm curious to hear what anyone that's actually built a big motor has to say.


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Reply #75 on: December 17, 2020, 03:52:49 pm
Wise ass answers are okay by me as long as they're informative.


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Reply #76 on: December 17, 2020, 04:10:37 pm
My build is using there clutch
I’ll try to report how it compares to stock


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Reply #77 on: December 17, 2020, 06:10:35 pm
Personally, I'm leaning towards the cam and high compression pistons and leaving it at that.  I'm strictly a street rider and both kits together come at under $700 if I install them myself.  I've got plenty of tools and even though I live in NYC I'm fortunate enough to have a warm place where I can work on the bike.  I figure that's a good project for next winter.  My last bike was a '76 Sportster XLCH and I never replaced anything more complicated than the gas tank but if I don't lose my nerve or get talked out of it by sage voices I'm gonna go for it.  All those Allen Milllyard videos are having an effect.  I don't see myself crafting custom parts with an angle grinder though.


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Reply #78 on: December 17, 2020, 07:21:12 pm
Boylan, have you looked at the dyno results Revelry has posted going that route? They have separate dyno charts for stock; air flow, cam and piston; and air flow, cam, piston and Powertronic on their second tuner video. Without the Powertronic, torque wavers considerably.

I've been comparing a fuel tuned version against stock, staring, rev matching for power output and I don't think I can justify $3k for what amounts to 4 or 5 hp and 3 or 4 ft/lb gains in everything below 5,500 rpm. I love that torque carries higher further and that peak hp is a good +9 over stock, but a lot of that power and pull sits at rpm that equates to significantly illegal speeds.

I haven't decided anything for certain. Installing the cam and pistons yourself will save big money. I'm not sure I'm ready for that now, but like you, maybe next winter.


Blazes Boylan

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Reply #79 on: December 17, 2020, 08:38:06 pm
Thanks, JL.  I'll look at the video again.


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Reply #80 on: December 18, 2020, 01:25:12 pm
No problem. I actually took screenshots to make it easier on myself to compare. I'll attach them here.


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Reply #81 on: December 23, 2020, 03:03:28 am
In preparation for the other parts I installed my tec 2-1 tonight.  Sounds healthy

I’m running without the baffel


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Reply #82 on: December 24, 2020, 11:41:32 am
I may be wrong but (mis)? remember tec bike saying on their vid that running without the baffle is not good for the engine. If that is the case I don't know why they'd make the baffle removable. I'm baffled. iirc they also said the booster plug was no use with these pipes. After giving it serious plugging before.


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Reply #83 on: December 24, 2020, 01:25:39 pm
I’ve watched most of those videos more than once and this is news to me. It’s possible I missed something.  In which video did he say running without the baffle is bad for the bike? And what about the booster plug?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 01:28:39 pm by Blazes Boylan »


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Reply #84 on: December 24, 2020, 02:10:20 pm
I’ve watched most of those videos more than once and this is news to me. It’s possible I missed something.  In which video did he say running without the baffle is bad for the bike? And what about the booster plug?

I can't tell you which episode but I do remember him making that statement. For me it took a bit of the shine off. It might have been an ad lib based on a extrapolation of a theory.
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Reply #85 on: December 24, 2020, 06:56:23 pm
I’ve watched most of those videos more than once and this is news to me. It’s possible I missed something.  In which video did he say running without the baffle is bad for the bike? And what about the booster plug?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED4sYnCcJXY
At 18 minutes he says no need for Power Commander etc, can't find him saying about the baffle so apologise if I'm mistaken.


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Reply #86 on: December 24, 2020, 07:59:04 pm
At the end of this build it will or should be getting tuned.   So I’m not so worried about it


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Reply #87 on: December 25, 2020, 05:41:16 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED4sYnCcJXY
At 18 minutes he says no need for Power Commander etc, can't find him saying about the baffle so apologise if I'm mistaken.

Check out from 3.25 sec https://youtu.be/2Td8w9hcHu0
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ace.cafe

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Reply #88 on: December 25, 2020, 12:27:27 pm
From looking at that video, it seems to me that the "db killer" likely supports the back end of the perforated pipe inside the can. I suspect that the perforated pipe inside may crack from road bumps or vibration if the back end of it is not supported.

I have not seen the inside, but that was the impression I got from the video.

Regarding the full kit and performance, I get the impression it is for looks and sound, but not much for performance. Price is good for a full stainless kit.
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NVDucati

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Reply #89 on: December 25, 2020, 12:45:32 pm
From looking at that video, it seems to me that the "db killer" likely supports the back end of the perforated pipe inside the can. I suspect that the perforated pipe inside may crack from road bumps or vibration if the back end of it is not supported.
That makes all the sense in the world to me. Good catch!
Without a connection at the rear end, that is a very long "lever" to worry and crack the front seam of the inner tube.
I haven't seen the DB baffle but strong chance it is an off the shelf unit made by another company. And that would make good sense to keep the price low.
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Reply #90 on: December 26, 2020, 12:18:58 am
I’ll snap some pics


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Reply #91 on: December 26, 2020, 05:52:15 pm
Check out from 3.25 sec https://youtu.be/2Td8w9hcHu0

Thanks very much, I thought I'd seen/heard it somewhere that you shouldn't run without the db killer, but that video is unfamiliar, perhaps tec re-did one of their videos and edited it.


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Reply #92 on: December 26, 2020, 09:13:36 pm
George Milburn of TEC has stated here and there that the dB killer supports the internal baffle and that if not used, the baffle should be spot welded.  He also said that this may lead to earlier failure of the baffles.  I suspect that may be due to differential thermal expansion with both ends constrained.


ace.cafe

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Reply #93 on: December 27, 2020, 01:37:05 pm
I would run the can without any baffle or perforated tube. That's where the power is.
The perf tube breaks all the wave action that should be available from the reverse megaphone shape. With the perf tube in, the shape of the can is just for looks.

In my location, the louder sound is not an issue, and I prefer to use the exhaust to maximun benefit.
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Reply #94 on: December 27, 2020, 06:59:49 pm
I agree
Plus the larger tube size and decat should in theory help the 865 once these parts are ready to install


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Reply #95 on: January 08, 2021, 09:28:17 pm
One hole down. One to go


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #96 on: January 19, 2021, 12:27:14 am
Started my tear down
The covers will all get powder coated



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Reply #97 on: January 19, 2021, 01:51:51 am
Started my tear down
The covers will all get powder coated
Stepping up from theory  ... cool.
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Reply #98 on: January 19, 2021, 12:57:43 pm
Good pics, I've been following your build with great interest. The pictures show clearly the oil pump  chain drive, elsewhere I have recently seen a respected bike restorer criticise it as being a potential weak point. I really rate my Interceptor and find i enjoy it more than any bike I've ridden in years.


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Reply #99 on: January 19, 2021, 10:41:52 pm
Rockers off


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Reply #100 on: January 19, 2021, 11:28:54 pm
Oh man! You are off your rockers!!

 ;D
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Reply #101 on: January 20, 2021, 12:40:50 am
Lol


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #102 on: January 20, 2021, 01:55:46 am
The head is unbolted and off


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #103 on: January 20, 2021, 02:52:42 am
No pic yet of it but removing the head while the motor is in the chasis is damn near impossible


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #104 on: January 20, 2021, 07:20:07 pm
Oic


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Reply #105 on: January 20, 2021, 07:23:00 pm
Watching this unfold gives me nervous anticipation. So cool!
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Reply #106 on: January 20, 2021, 07:41:11 pm
Nicely done.

They have to enable a “Like” in the forum...

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Reply #107 on: January 20, 2021, 07:43:24 pm
I might have missed it... but why not remove the engine in its cradle? 

Would it had been easier to work on it ?
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Reply #108 on: January 20, 2021, 08:00:46 pm
Probably so
But being solo I’d have trouble picking it up


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Reply #109 on: January 20, 2021, 08:29:00 pm
Watching this unfold gives me nervous anticipation. So cool!

We're all nervous - this project is so long in gestation


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Reply #110 on: January 21, 2021, 01:29:19 am
Pics


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #111 on: January 21, 2021, 03:29:42 am
Pistons will come off rods tomorrow.  I’ll then go pick up the parts from the machine shop. 

Building it out from there


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Reply #112 on: January 21, 2021, 05:17:20 am
Pistons will come off rods tomorrow.  I’ll then go pick up the parts from the machine shop. 

Building it out from there
Any surprises, yet?
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Reply #113 on: January 21, 2021, 07:01:51 am
None

Very similar to a triumph


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #114 on: January 22, 2021, 02:18:09 am
Covers are all coated


NVDucati

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Reply #115 on: January 22, 2021, 02:40:31 am
Covers are all coated
Those covers look great! Did you do them yourself?
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #116 on: January 22, 2021, 02:47:32 am
No. A buddy of mine own a shop that does it


wachuko

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Reply #117 on: January 22, 2021, 02:51:51 am
Covers are all coated

Oh that came out great!  8)
Ride safe!
Wachuko
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #118 on: January 22, 2021, 03:07:06 am
The exhaust. A tec 2-1.  Will be the same color black.  Done In a ceramic hi temp coating


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #119 on: January 23, 2021, 06:08:03 pm
The exhaust post coating.  It looks titanium due to the flash
It’s flat or semi flat black


GravyDavy

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Reply #120 on: January 23, 2021, 11:20:46 pm
None

Very similar to a triumph

I wonder why?



(Not really.  Some of the same folks involved in the designs).


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #121 on: January 26, 2021, 12:01:45 am
Rekluse clutch is installed


NVDucati

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Reply #122 on: January 26, 2021, 12:50:05 am
Rekluse clutch is installed
Now you're just showing off! ;)
Very cool. I'm not sure if you have ever said if this will be a street bike. Did you consider the RadiusX?
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #123 on: January 26, 2021, 01:06:53 am
I love tinkering with it
It’s fun


thatonedad

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Reply #124 on: January 28, 2021, 11:52:34 am
Do you have a dyno run set up for after everything is broken in? I assume it's going to pull like a diesel. Wicked excited reading this thread. Good job.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #125 on: January 28, 2021, 03:45:45 pm
Yes. But it’s several hundred miles away

Local to me dyno only dynos harleys


Jack Straw

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Reply #126 on: January 30, 2021, 12:29:25 am
 :)Please allow a geezer with sadly won experience to remind you to;

1. Pour oil in the engine.

2. Check oil level at least three times.

3. Triple check the drain plug

4. Triple check the oil filter

5. Put a sign near the ignition switch with these gentle reminders writ LARGE

6. Don't ask me how I learned these things
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #127 on: February 03, 2021, 02:06:22 am
Pics coming soon
The machine shop has finished my juggs
I’ll be picking them up soon


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Reply #128 on: February 25, 2021, 11:44:02 pm
Machine shop is finished with the juggs
I’ll post pics asap


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #129 on: February 26, 2021, 12:43:43 am
Piston weight is close to being the same
Piston is 3/4 inch larger in diameter



Hoiho

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Reply #130 on: February 26, 2021, 01:04:10 am
Nice jugs  ;)

Are the pistons same material just different finishing?


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #131 on: February 26, 2021, 01:24:11 am
I’m not sure which grade of aluminum they are made of


ace.cafe

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Reply #132 on: February 26, 2021, 02:28:01 pm
The machinist would know. He had to set the clearance.

I would predict that they are 2618.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #133 on: February 26, 2021, 02:33:39 pm
I would agree
2618


Breaker Express

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Reply #134 on: February 28, 2021, 10:46:14 pm
Gremlinsteve,
Not sure if you said you were going to powder coat the clutch & magneto cover.
If you did or if anyone else has do you have to remove the top and bottom needle roller bearings in the clutch cover or can they be left in and just re grease them?
I do not want to oder the special tool unless I have to.
Thanks.
2020 Baker Express


ace.cafe

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Reply #135 on: February 28, 2021, 11:11:26 pm
Gremlinsteve,
Not sure if you said you were going to powder coat the clutch & magneto cover.
If you did or if anyone else has do you have to remove the top and bottom needle roller bearings in the clutch cover or can they be left in and just re grease them?
I do not want to oder the special tool unless I have to.
Thanks.
Powder coat baking temps are usually 350°- 450°F. Much over 350°F will probably start to turn the needle bearings to a very light straw color. While I have seen good results from bearing races that have turned light straw without any problem, you might want to specify that they bake the powder coat at 350°F to keep the effect on bearing temper to a minimum.
Or else, remove the bearings.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 11:17:08 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Breaker Express

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Reply #136 on: February 28, 2021, 11:14:16 pm
Thanks. I just looked on Hitchcocks and the special tool are not available so I would have to find an alternate way if I have to remove them. Any idea's?
2020 Baker Express


ace.cafe

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Reply #137 on: February 28, 2021, 11:25:01 pm
I have found good results removing bearings from alloy cases by heating the case in the oven to about 300°F and then quickly turning the case with the bearing facing down on the workbench and tapping on the case and the bearing/race usually just drops out due to difference in thermal expansion of the alloy case vs steel bearing/race. If it is stubborn, you could heat to 320°F and help get it out with a wooden stick.
To reinstall, put the bearing in the freezer in a ziploc bag, and re-heat case up again, remove bearing/race from ziploc bag, and drop the bearing/race into its seat in the case, and let it all cool down.
Re-grease, and Bob's your uncle!

Haven't tried it with a powder coated case, but maybe ask the powder coating guy about whether heating it up would be any problem.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 11:31:09 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #138 on: February 28, 2021, 11:29:57 pm
I agree with ace
Mine are set to go back on in a day or so
I’ll snap pics

I used a semi gloss powder coat


Breaker Express

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Reply #139 on: February 28, 2021, 11:31:01 pm
Thanks for the help. I will be doing this in about 3K miles. I have already powder coated the sprocket cover, heel guard and FI covers. I have a friend that has access to the equipment ;D ;D
2020 Baker Express


zimmemr

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Reply #140 on: February 28, 2021, 11:33:16 pm
I have found good results removing bearings from alloy cases by heating the case in the oven to about 300°F and then quickly turning the case with the bearing facing down on the workbench and tapping on the case and the bearing/race usually just drops out due to difference in thermal expansion of the alloy case vs steel bearing/race. If it is stubborn, you could heat to 320°F and help get it out with a wooden stick.
To reinstall, put the bearing in the freezer in a ziploc bag, and re-heat case up again, remove bearing/race from ziploc bag, and drop the bearing/race into its seat in the case, and let it all cool down.
Re-grease, and Bob's your uncle!

Haven't tried it with a powder coated case, but maybe ask the powder coating guy about whether heating it up would be any problem.

We use to call removing a bearing like that "fwapping." The first time an old hand showed it to me I couldn't believe it, but I've been removing blind bearings like that for 50 years now and it still works just fine.


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Reply #141 on: March 01, 2021, 06:47:06 pm
"Heat soak" is a great method.  When I was still living at home I would now and then sneak engine cases into my moms' oven.  Worked great.  She finally busted me one time when she found an entire Ducati crankcase assembly in there.  I was splitting the cases but they were just too darn stuck. It worked nicely and since I put tin drip pan underneath the consequences were not bad.

I've used that temperature differential treatment in many instances even on some guitar restoration work.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 06:49:55 pm by Jack Straw »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #142 on: March 02, 2021, 08:08:14 pm
Pics


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #143 on: March 02, 2021, 08:46:33 pm
Another


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #144 on: March 02, 2021, 08:47:13 pm
One more


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #145 on: March 02, 2021, 08:50:36 pm
Clutch installed


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Reply #146 on: March 03, 2021, 01:52:45 pm
I wish there was a "Like" button I could smash for your picture updates. Looking good, Gremlinsteve!


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Reply #147 on: March 03, 2021, 07:57:21 pm
I wish there was a "Like" button I could smash for your picture updates. Looking good, Gremlinsteve!

YES!!
Ride safe!
Wachuko
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #148 on: March 05, 2021, 12:09:58 am
Some assembly porn


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #149 on: March 07, 2021, 03:08:28 am
Slight set back today
The install was going good till I opened the packaging for the magneto cover and clutch covers

I found both of the where broken. 

So I had to order two more

Then the jugg install went south after I clipped a ring on install and broke it

So I was forced to order a new set of rings from wiseco  for the motor build

Yes. Wiseco is the manufacturer of the pistons used in the s&s 865 kit




NVDucati

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Reply #150 on: March 07, 2021, 05:15:42 am
Slight set back today
The install was going good till I opened the packaging for the magneto cover and clutch covers

I found both of the where broken. 

So I had to order two more

Then the jugg install went south after I clipped a ring on install and broke it

So I was forced to order a new set of rings from wiseco  for the motor build

Yes. Wiseco is the manufacturer of the pistons used in the s&s 865 kit
Sorry to hear that. But that's just the way it goes sometimes.
As for Wiseco pistons, I can't think of a company with more specialized experience then them. I've used them going back decades. Chin up. 
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #151 on: March 07, 2021, 10:58:04 pm
Yea
I have made a custom ring compressor that will allow me to get it finished

Otherwise it really is a pain in the rumo


Breaker Express

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Reply #152 on: March 10, 2021, 11:49:19 pm
Nice pics of the cases in black. I have ordered the gaskets for the clutch and magneto covers as well as the oil seal in the clutch cover so I should be taking it apart to powder coat at the 6K service or when the gaskets arrive. Which ever comes first.
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Reply #153 on: March 12, 2021, 08:03:33 am
Very interested in this. I've bought the S&S 865 kit, cam and clutch. Also have Powertronic and a full quality exhaust by a local company here in Tasmania (Verex). I'd be ok with the same engine characteristics, just turned up to 11. So like others wondering about the difference between just doing the bolt on stuff (well, there's the machining for the 865) vs that plus head work. By what Revelry in Sydney said about the street bike they did for the Queensland customer (stock head) it may suit me. (they charge A$3000 for a worked head!).

Great thread and can't wait to hear results.


NVDucati

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Reply #154 on: March 12, 2021, 01:20:21 pm
As an aside:  S&S President announces retirement.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #155 on: March 16, 2021, 12:52:47 am
After waiting two weeks almost the new rings have arrived
Tomorrow I’ll install the piston and get this motor running


GravyDavy

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Reply #156 on: March 16, 2021, 12:56:11 am
Head out on the highway?


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #157 on: March 16, 2021, 06:05:44 pm
Mostly together


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #158 on: March 16, 2021, 06:09:31 pm
Intake port


zimmemr

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Reply #159 on: March 16, 2021, 08:28:43 pm
Looks like it's almost ready to make some noise. Nice job.


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Reply #160 on: March 16, 2021, 08:38:22 pm
Yes it is


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #161 on: March 17, 2021, 06:36:53 pm
Rocker gear


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #162 on: March 17, 2021, 07:27:17 pm
T bodies installed.


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Reply #163 on: March 17, 2021, 09:29:36 pm
Looking good in black


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #164 on: March 17, 2021, 09:56:49 pm
For lack of better words. This install has been a royal pain in the ass


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #165 on: March 17, 2021, 10:06:49 pm
To clarify that

You need several sets of hands to do this work along with a custom made ring compressor

Without those two things your going to have issues




All that’s left with this build is to adjust/set the valve lash and install the rocker cover and then exhaust

I’ll tidy up the wiring ect once I’m done


GravyDavy

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Reply #166 on: March 18, 2021, 01:43:46 am
Next time, try Omega-shaped compressor bands and channellocks.(I don't know how to post the Greek letter here, but once you look it will be obvious.) Cheap, easy to make and easy to use. Just a strip of metal a bit wider than the ring spacing bent into most of a circle, with ears on the ends.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #167 on: March 18, 2021, 02:34:02 am
That’s what we did. Made a similar style band.  It was used twice. And it was basically destroyed getting it off
After the second use.  But it served its purpose


NVDucati

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Reply #168 on: March 18, 2021, 02:44:18 am
Next time, try Omega-shaped compressor bands and channellocks.(I don't know how to post the Greek letter here, but once you look it will be obvious.) Cheap, easy to make and easy to use. Just a strip of metal a bit wider than the ring spacing bent into most of a circle, with ears on the ends.
+1
These are from Summit Racing. The size of this particular set doesn't matter ... just illustrating GravyDavy" suggestion.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/otc-4838
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #169 on: March 18, 2021, 03:07:13 am
Those look like what we made


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Reply #170 on: March 18, 2021, 11:39:19 am
Yep, that's the idea.  They can often be made narrower depending on the spacing of the ring grooves, which can help when space is tight.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #171 on: March 18, 2021, 07:10:17 pm
Initial fire went well
No oil leaks and it’s throttle responce is awesome


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Reply #172 on: March 18, 2021, 07:16:06 pm
Initial fire went well
No oil leaks and it’s throttle responce is awesome

Way to go man, can't wait for the ride report.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #173 on: March 18, 2021, 07:24:24 pm
I have video but can’t post



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Reply #174 on: March 18, 2021, 07:44:27 pm
Nobody likes a tease, ya know!


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Reply #175 on: March 18, 2021, 07:46:22 pm
Can some one post it?   I can’t
I can text it


Hoiho

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Reply #176 on: March 18, 2021, 08:06:11 pm
Lots of ways - upload it to Youtube or if you share it via Dropbox (send me the link via PM), or I could upload it..


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #177 on: March 19, 2021, 12:41:13 am
Test ride is tomorrow
Got no clutch right now.  So I need to determine what I did wrong


GravyDavy

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Reply #178 on: March 19, 2021, 03:51:36 pm
Slipping or not releasing?  Did you soak the friction plates in oil overnight first?


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #179 on: March 19, 2021, 04:37:59 pm
Nah. I installed the cover and the shaft rotated on me enough that it didn’t engage the clutch

All fixed now


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #180 on: March 20, 2021, 01:52:09 am
Sprocket cover installed  made from a Cnc chunk of billet
Looks nice coated in black


GravyDavy

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Reply #181 on: March 20, 2021, 05:32:02 pm
That'll do it!

Impatiently awaiting ride report & video.


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Reply #182 on: March 22, 2021, 01:48:58 am
All ready to drive over and drop her off at my tuner

Wish me well


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Reply #183 on: March 22, 2021, 01:53:11 am
Good luck man, been quite the journey...


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Reply #184 on: March 23, 2021, 10:53:48 pm
Dropped the bike off at the local Ducati dealer for a dyno tune
Hope to know tomorrow if my work survived the dyno


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Reply #185 on: March 24, 2021, 12:49:54 am
Hark!  What was that loud, resounding boom from the far distance?

Just kidding.  I hope it runs just like a Royal Enfield 650, only much more so.


thatonedad

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Reply #186 on: March 24, 2021, 02:04:04 pm
eagerly awaiting report on this. I am living vicariously through you on this build.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #187 on: March 24, 2021, 08:19:56 pm
The dyno broke
It will be repaired tomorrow and the tuning will continue


NVDucati

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Reply #188 on: March 24, 2021, 08:43:13 pm
The dyno broke
It will be repaired tomorrow and the tuning will continue

Good news. It takes a lot of power to break a Dyno.
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Reply #189 on: March 24, 2021, 09:00:52 pm
This is true


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #190 on: March 31, 2021, 09:16:20 pm
Plus 12 rwhp and zero tuning performed yet


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Reply #191 on: March 31, 2021, 10:28:46 pm
Do you have an idea how much you'll be spending on tuning? Just an idle question, no judging  ;)
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Reply #192 on: March 31, 2021, 11:05:41 pm
At last, there'll be someone who can just paint an "A" in front of those side panel "INT650" stickers!
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.

(Legal enough to pass muster if they don't look too closely in Woodbridge, Virginia, where the buses don't run at night, holidays or weekends and I'm a contender for 'Village Idiot')


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Reply #193 on: April 01, 2021, 12:36:14 am
350 for the tune


GravyDavy

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Reply #194 on: April 01, 2021, 12:36:30 am
Do you have an idea how much you'll be spending on tuning? Just an idle question, no judging  ;)

I'd bet he'll tune at more than just at idle.

(bad joke)


ace.cafe

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Reply #195 on: April 01, 2021, 01:11:20 am
Very interested to hear all about the outcome!
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #196 on: April 01, 2021, 01:28:28 am
865cc on a stock tune runs but will have a major flat spot in the graph

I expect that to be cleaned up now and the future pulls will only increase the rwhp


Blazes Boylan

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Reply #197 on: April 01, 2021, 02:37:26 am
Plus 12 rwhp and zero tuning performed yet

The stock bike is about, what, 42 rwhp?  So that would put you at 54 before the tune.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #198 on: April 01, 2021, 02:55:53 am
Yep


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #199 on: April 01, 2021, 03:37:49 am
I’m really hoping to reach 60 after the tune. Just don’t know if that will happen


Blazes Boylan

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Reply #200 on: April 01, 2021, 04:12:43 am
60hp seems completely realistic for all the work you’ve done.  Next winter I’m looking to install the S&S camshaft and high compression pistons, hopefully a much simpler process.  Naturally I’ll add a PowerTronic or Power Commander.  I’d definitely pay $350 for a dyno-tune.


ace.cafe

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Reply #201 on: April 01, 2021, 04:18:55 am
The flow should be enough with your head work for more power.

IMO, the S&S cam is a bit too advanced, and there is a little bit of room to retard it 3 degrees for a 110°ATDC intake lobe center. I don't know the cam fixing sysytem, but if it uses the common Woodruff Key, you could get an offset Woodruff Key for the amount you need to retard.

That should shift the torque peak up to a slightly higher rpm, which might give it the hp bump you seek.

I know some people say that 4-valve can run shorter durations because of valve area, but I looked at those S&S cam specs which I presume are @.050" lift, and I find them to be closing too early for higher rpm power, with the flow that you measured on your ports.

Not a lot of room to shift that cam, but there is a little bit of room to go to 110 on the intake.

If you don't reach your power goal, you might try it.
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Jako

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Reply #202 on: April 01, 2021, 08:24:06 am
Guy on 'RE 650 owners  Australia ' facebook page   claimed    93 hp  at the wheel. 865cc custom cam ( not S&S)  larger throttle bodies,  extensive head work,  custom headers . 6 hrs dyno time. Tuned by the guys who recently set the speed record at lake Gairdner salt flats.

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Haggisman2

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Reply #203 on: April 01, 2021, 09:22:54 am
60hp for all that work!
Previously "Haggisman"


Blazes Boylan

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Reply #204 on: April 01, 2021, 12:10:57 pm
If Gremlinsteve wants higher numbers he could always use a different dyno.  Maybe you folks in the Southern Hemisphere get better performance because everything is upside down.


ace.cafe

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Reply #205 on: April 01, 2021, 12:29:37 pm
The flow should be enough with your head work for more power.

IMO, the S&S cam is a bit too advanced, and there is a little bit of room to retard it 3 degrees for a 110°ATDC intake lobe center. I don't know the cam fixing sysytem, but if it uses the common Woodruff Key, you could get an offset Woodruff Key for the amount you need to retard.

That should shift the torque peak up to a slightly higher rpm, which might give it the hp bump you seek.

I know some people say that 4-valve can run shorter durations because of valve area, but I looked at those S&S cam specs which I presume are @.050" lift, and I find them to be closing too early for higher rpm power, with the flow that you measured on your ports.

Not a lot of room to shift that cam, but there is a little bit of room to go to 110 on the intake.

If you don't reach your power goal, you might try it.

So, I read just now that the S&S cam has adjustability.. That should make retarding easy. Maybe even try 5 or 6 degrees retard, if you seem to be getting results with the 3.

It will cost a little bit of low rpm power, but not much. Retarding the cam always gives more high rpm power with minimal reduction of some lower rpm power.
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #206 on: April 01, 2021, 04:19:39 pm
I agree
It is in pretty much straight up right now
I’ll adjust it if needed



Gremlinsteve

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Reply #207 on: April 02, 2021, 10:22:18 pm
Over 60 rwhp now with more to go


zimmemr

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Reply #208 on: April 02, 2021, 10:45:28 pm
Over 60 rwhp now with more to go

Nice job, you should be proud of yourself. That'd make for a pretty competitive entry level dirt track motor, one that'd certainly be capable of winning  at the pro-am level.


ace.cafe

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Reply #209 on: April 02, 2021, 10:54:31 pm
Over 60 rwhp now with more to go

Looking good!
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Reply #210 on: April 02, 2021, 11:10:27 pm
Over 60 rwhp now with more to go

How does it feel to ride?  Any flat spots or steps in the power band?

Sure seems like it should have potential to have the same kind of motor feel and smooth power band, only stronger and faster.  Thanks for bringing us along!


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #211 on: April 03, 2021, 12:45:16 am
Still have some work to do
With it
But so far I’m happy with the results


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #212 on: April 03, 2021, 02:15:49 am
It’s sitting at or tight at a 60 percent improvement


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Reply #213 on: April 03, 2021, 03:21:43 pm
UK dealer Coopers recently published a dyno chart for their 865 conversion. Peak power 61 bhp, peak torque 61.5 lb-ft.
How does that compare to your measurements?

Parts added: S&S 865cc big bore kit with high lift cams, power commander, Air induction kit, HD S&S clutch kit and a hand made exhaust.
(On the same dyno a stock bike makes around 42bhp/45Nm.)


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #214 on: April 03, 2021, 03:42:45 pm
Seems to be about the same
I’ll post up better numbers and graphs soon


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Reply #215 on: April 03, 2021, 04:50:30 pm
A fifty percent increase in hp and torque strikes me as worth all the effort.  I'm hoping to get to 50hp with the cam and high compression pistons, plus a Power Commander.  (I've already got the Stinger exhaust.)


ace.cafe

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Reply #216 on: April 03, 2021, 05:29:56 pm
UK dealer Coopers recently published a dyno chart for their 865 conversion. Peak power 61 bhp, peak torque 61.5 lb-ft.
How does that compare to your measurements?

Parts added: S&S 865cc big bore kit with high lift cams, power commander, Air induction kit, HD S&S clutch kit and a hand made exhaust.
(On the same dyno a stock bike makes around 42bhp/45Nm.)
There's plenty of meat in that torque curve.
You could shift that torque curve up about 500 rpm - 1000 rpm and really never miss anything significant down low. It would bump up that higher rpm hp really nice. Might pick up 5hp on top, just from that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 05:33:30 pm by ace.cafe »
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Gremlinsteve

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Reply #217 on: April 03, 2021, 05:34:10 pm
I agree
Moving cam timing around can and probably will work
I just don’t have the luxury of the dyno time


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #218 on: April 07, 2021, 11:00:52 pm
A dyno graph


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #219 on: April 07, 2021, 11:11:17 pm
I know those pics suck right

But the graph compares to the other shops


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #220 on: April 08, 2021, 07:38:08 pm
First ride impressions are in

It’s a animal


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Reply #221 on: April 08, 2021, 07:53:48 pm
First ride impressions are in

It’s a animal
Well, that doesn't suck much at all. Congratulations!


wachuko

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Reply #222 on: April 08, 2021, 08:06:12 pm
Congratulations!!  We are going to have to update your helmet...

Ride safe!
Wachuko
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‘21 Royal Enfield Continental GT 650


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #223 on: April 08, 2021, 08:36:07 pm
Love that helmet