Author Topic: Meters and Scopes for Moto work  (Read 1026 times)

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zimmemr

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Reply #15 on: January 31, 2021, 07:46:14 pm
My machine is a 2012, the OBD reading device you linked to does look useful for 2018 and later though.  Thanks for posting that link.  I could see this device being faster for reading codes than counting MIL blinks.  I'd be happier if there was a device available that would translate whatever protocol is used for Buss communication to standard OBDII protocol, so I could hook up my existing OBDII reader, rather than collect yet another reader that can only be used on a single machine.

Right, sorry, I meant a CAPACITIVE pickup for clipping to the spark plug high tension wire, not inductive.  It does seem to work adequately.

I've encountered situations where a starter motor turns, but due to increased resistance in the circuit, draws battery voltage down to a point where there's not enough energy to provide a good spark.   The starter motor turns, but the engine won't start.  As you suggest, diagnosing this fault wouldn't require a clamp probe and it's not very useful for most motorcycle work, although possibly would be helpful when working with PWM or brushless DC motors?   I bought mine because I also occasionally repair industrial equipment for my employer and it can also be attached to a VOM to read higher DC current than I had the ability to read with my UT 210-D clamp meter.

Back probing works fine, and lots of mechanics do this in automotive work.  A back probe with a little electrical tape to secure it seems to work well, and is secure enough for my purposes.  The Hantek is only a 2.4MSa/sec scope, and only capable of 250Khz (optimistic) and downward.  The leads provided with the Hantek are quite crude, just a couple of alligator clip leads terminated with a BNC connector:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-BNC-Male-Q9-to-Dual-Alligator-Clip-Oscilloscope-Test-Probe-Cable-New-US-Ship/173325524904
If you are thinking good practice for MHz signals is required for auto work, this doesn't seem to be the case.   Adding capacitance to the lead and dropping 10 milliseconds of signal here and there, really doesn't change the situation, in my opinion.  We aren't talking about signals in the MHz range or CAN logic signals.  The automotive type O-scope is admittedly more useful for "shape of the waveform" or timing diagnosis, vs accurate level measurements.  One would still want a decently accurate voltmeter.

I've never heard of an auto mechanic insisting that a breakout box be used.  Perhaps these are used by engineers developing the ECUs?  Auto mechanics demonstrating diagnostic techniques on automobiles in videos and so forth, all seem to use back probing. 

What does "insulation piercing" say, other than it pierces the insulation to contact the wire?

If you don't accept back probing, or insulation piercing, how do you use a your voltmeter?

You said you have never tried using an O-Scope on a motorcycle, yet you dismiss its usefulness.  It's a tool that thousands of mechanics do find useful, and companies like Hantek and Pico offer a full line of products for.

My only comment here is that I can tell you from experience that breakout boxes are handy things to have when tracing circuits on things like the bucket trucks used for electrical utility work, especially when they use air operated electric over hydraulic systems for some of the bucket functions. Common practice is to connect the bucket to the OEM truck harness via a dedicated plug, the bucket normally has an engine speed control, an engine stop/start switch and a "dump" system to kill the hydraulics and those all work through the ECU, and are connected with about 40 feet of wire. The other issue is that many OEMs use wires that are numbered but not colored. For example Navistar uses a lot of all black wires or all purple. So tracing the circuit turns into a real pain in the ass if you try to do it visually.

The other instance when a breakout box box comes in handy for truck work is in isolating electrical failures, especially in the injection circuit where you have your injectors and certain sensors located under the valve cover. Without a breakout box you have to pull the valve cover, which can take an hour or two or sometimes more to access the connectors. Usually once it throws any kind of injection or low oil pressure code, HEUI systems use oil pressure to fire the injectors, you know you're going in there anyway, but the breakout box gives some idea of what you're looking for. That being said our shop didn't have one, we use to borrow it from the dealer.  :)


axman88

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Reply #16 on: January 31, 2021, 09:49:28 pm
If you have a 6-connector Sumitomo plug nearby your EFI, the OBD Reader should work. It is the same EFI. With the same communication protocol. The Enfield EFi is a quite simple design.
When I asked the seller of the OBD reader you linked to, "Can this scanner tool be made to work with a 2012 Classic 500 with a Keihin ECU?", he responded,  "Sorry, only compatible with euro 4 compatible bikes 2017 onwards."

So, although my 2012 is equipped with a 6 pin connector, 3 pins of which are wired, It appears that RE changed something about the communications protocol when they started making the BS4 /Euro4 machines.  I don't believe that the Euro4 500 UCEs were ever exported to the USA.  Because we were rolling back environmental controls at the time, they were not required to meet our standards.  My understanding is that the US only received the equivalent of Euro3 export bikes, with no manifold air temp sensor and other differences in the electronics / wiring.

What is different about the comm. protocol, I don't know, and I haven't tried hooking up a scanner via a 6 to 16 adaptor.  There was considerable interest in this back in 2010 to 2014, and the general consensus was that OBD2 scanners and readers, etc did NOT work.  Those who tried, failed, so I didn't personally pursue this.  Interest has understandably died down since then, folks have accepted the blinky light diagnostics, and the 500 has been basically dropped from the RE line.

One thing that makes the issue confusing when discussed here in the international forum, is that India domestic, Euro and US bikes are all slightly different, with different ECU numbers, although all are variations of the same Keihin box.  Most of the experimentation seems to be happening in India, and documented in U-Tube videos, which is great, except they are in Hindi language and the subtitles seem to not work.

Here's what little I have found out about OBDII communications with UCE 500 machines.
My 2012 C5 (Euro3) has a three wire "DOL" connector, with black (ground), red/white (+12V), and gray (data).  According to the Haynes schematic for pre Euro4, this gray wire connects to pin 10 of the ECU.  Singh5 calls pin 10 the "KLine" pin.  https://youtu.be/ZpPQzrMPK1U?t=101   I haven't found any reports of Euro3 ECUs working with OBD2 scanners.

The schematic for Euro4 C5 machines again shows 3 wires going to the "DOL" connector, but the wire colors are different, we see Black (ground), Orange (+12V), and Purple/ Blue (data).  The Haynes schematic for Euro4 machines shows the P/BL data wire as being routed to pin 30 of the ECU rather than pin 10.  Although I haven't seen a documented report, there is some evidence to suggest that Euro4 UCE machines can work with some OBD2 readers.

I'm aware that there exists 2 standard protocols that could conceivably be implemented with a single data pin.  SAE J1850 VPW, which is used by Ford, and ISO 9141-2: used on Asian, Chrysler, and European cars.  ISO 9141-2 would require some non-standard method to wake up the ECU.   https://obdstation.com/obd2-protocols/

It seems that RE changed the system again, when the BS6 were released.  Now it appears that there are 4 wires, Black (ground), Brown (+12V), Purple (CAN high), Yellow/Red (CAN low).  These BS6 bikes definitely seem to
support some OBD2 readers.   https://youtu.be/4Bf_n7YFwgo?t=75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_BrYxrbWng

This $20 Bluetooth scanner seems popular.  https://www.amazon.com/KOBRA-Wireless-OBD-Scanner-Connects/dp/B01C3HAHCS/ref=asc_df_B01C3HAHCS

You do seem well versed in this technology, certainly more than myself.  I only have my 2012, US export machine to play with.  I'm sure that others, besides myself here in the forum would be interested in having the ability to use an OBD2 reader on their older UCE machine, if you can help us figure this puzzle out.


viczena

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Reply #17 on: January 31, 2021, 10:55:18 pm
Nope, they did not change anything. Until now every Enfield has the same K-Line protocol.

There is a speciality in Euro 4 Models, as they also have the ABS System in the K-Line. Therefore in these Bikes the K-Line does not end in PIN10 of the ECu, but in PIN30. Looks like a different version of the ECU.

What I know for shure that the protocols and connectors for B5, C5, 535 GT & HIMALAYAN are equal.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 11:59:01 pm by viczena »


viczena

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Reply #18 on: February 01, 2021, 01:20:14 am
Correction: Every single cylinder Enfield has the same K-Line connection.


axman88

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Reply #19 on: February 01, 2021, 02:01:41 am
Every single cylinder Enfield has the same K-Line connection.
Thanks for providing insight into this.

The BS6 bikes in the videos I linked to, which look to be UCE, they are saying in those videos that those are CAN Buss and showing four wires.  I would have thought that a two wire CAN buss would inherently be a different protocol than a single wire K-Line?  But, you say it's all the same protocol?  What comm protocol is Royal Enfield using on the one wire, K-Line machines?

This topic has been discussed here on the forum a few times.  Some guys claimed to have tried this or that reader, but nobody said they were able to get it to work.
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=17961.0
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=11421.0
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=20229.0

I'm kind of leery of purchasing a reader that the seller has already told me will not work.  Why do you think he's saying it won't work, if you say that you have successfully used that device?

I guess I don't mind jumpering from the 6 pin connector to a 16 pin OBD2 connector and trying a code reader that I already have.  Can you advise me on which pin numbers on the OBD2 connector I should connect my GND, 12V+ and K-line DATA to?


viczena

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Reply #20 on: February 01, 2021, 08:58:20 am
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 09:39:55 am by viczena »


zimmemr

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Reply #21 on: February 01, 2021, 02:06:28 pm
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.

Did you purchase your OEM scan tool through a dealer or find one through some other source? If it was through a dealer in the US or otherwise. Sorry if this is redundant, but when I go to your links I can't always get the translator to work.


viczena

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Reply #22 on: February 01, 2021, 02:24:42 pm
I ordered it from my dealer. You can also get it from Hitchcocks.


zimmemr

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Reply #23 on: February 01, 2021, 03:30:41 pm
I ordered it from my dealer. You can also get it from Hitchcocks.
[/quote

Thanks, we've got a new RE dealer in town, in an unintended homage to the past the local Indian shop has taken them on. I'm going to wait until he's got himself settled in, and see if he bought one as part of his new dealer tool kit before I spend the dough on a tool that hopefully I'll rarely if ever use. Was your dealer in the US?


axman88

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Reply #24 on: February 02, 2021, 06:20:07 am
I own the original scan tool for RE dealers. And tried other (cheaper) alternatives.

https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger%C3%A4t-fehlercodes

From what i conclude by reading the 650 wiring map, these bikes seem to have a CAN 4-wire connection. They also have 2 new DTC Codes: CAN_BUSOFF and CAN_GENERIC.
Thanks for posting the link to your posts discussing the K-Line connector and OBD2 diagnostics.   The pinout of the K-line connector is very helpful.   I see that you said
"The connector itself is a 6-pin Sumitomo HT 090.

The Trials only occupied the K-Line connection. And no CAN bus. K-Line is a serial protocol with 10400 baud and can be read out via a serial interface.

So it shouldn't be difficult to find a device or software that reads the vehicle's EFI. But surprisingly, this is not the case. "


1100 Euros is too expensive for me to purchase the ICM NACS II terminal, but thanks for posting that information.  It is very interesting.  Not many US dealers seem to have purchased this device.

You said here in our forum above, that you did try some cheaper alternative readers.
Did you have success with any of those?  Did you work with any Euro3 machines, from 2016 or earlier?

I wonder if the Proscan Automotive device will work with my USA export 2012, even though the auction text says 2018 - current?

Thanks again for posting this information.  With german language information, I can use a translator.  With the Hindi videos, I can only understand one word in 50.  I encourage you to start a K-line / OBD reader thread on this forum with this information.  I think many people will find it interesting.


viczena

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Reply #25 on: February 02, 2021, 08:18:00 am
In the article i posted you will find the yellow obd reader. it costs around $40. Works definitely on bikes >18. Could not try it on older bikes.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #26 on: February 22, 2021, 11:42:31 pm
An electric pulse meter can be a very handy tool for testing modern electrics.


axman88

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Reply #27 on: February 23, 2021, 02:17:44 am
An electric pulse meter can be a very handy tool for testing modern electrics.
What is that?  Haven't heard of a pulse meter.


derottone

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Reply #28 on: February 23, 2021, 07:33:20 am
The day I should need anything more than a voltmeter and maybe an can interface to read out the stored fault codes I am reverting to point´s ignition.

In Japan apparently you may need a scope to fix your toilett once you got an electric shock from it.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/toto-on-japan/index.html
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 07:35:58 am by derottone »
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zimmemr

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Reply #29 on: February 23, 2021, 02:56:35 pm
The day I should need anything more than a voltmeter and maybe an can interface to read out the stored fault codes I am reverting to point´s ignition.

In Japan apparently you may need a scope to fix your toilett once you got an electric shock from it.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/toto-on-japan/index.html
[/quote

We're on the same page here. We're not working on the space shuttle,  a good multimeter will let you troubleshoot to the component level and  beyond. While a relatively inexpensive scan tool will generally point you in the right direction. In my experience most electrical  problems stem from the same things that have always caused problems:  loose connectors, broken wires and the occasional failed sensor or fried component.