Author Topic: Cam Swap  (Read 3600 times)

1 Member and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Karma: 0
on: January 17, 2020, 05:55:47 pm
Any tips on swapping out the cams?
  The Haynes manual says to use a rotor strap (strap wrench) on rotor to remove its nut.
  Looks like I remove the rotor, then the plate.
Opposite the stator is the 'breather chamber'. Should I open that up?
Cheers,
Bill
ACE Motors - sales & administration


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 01:00:45 am
    What does it say ?!    ::)     The breather chamber is inside the right cover... towards the rear.   You don't have to mess with it to do the Cams. 

   I use a 6" 3 legged  gear puller to remove those rotors.      Loosen up the shaft nut that holds the rotor on.... but do not take it off all the way yet ! When the rotor pop's  loose, the nut will stop it from flying off.    I use an impact gun, or just a breaker bar and socket for that nut . If you use a socket... put the motor in first gear and lean on the rear brake peddle as you loosen the nut.     Position your gear puller snugly behind the rotor ... with the hooked legs of the gear puller .  And the tapered center  of the gear puller into the crank shaft.    Get it all hand tight.     Then just tighten the gear puller a little at a time ... then stop and tap the shaft of the gear puller with a hammer between tightening down on the puller.       Tighten ... tap.... tighten... tap .... tighten ... tap ...  and  It will POP right off the shaft.   Done it this way a million times .    Sometimes those rotor's are on there real tight ... and sometimes they about just fall off.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Karma: 0
Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 02:10:02 pm
I have ordered a strap wrench and a 3 jaw puller.
  In gear and holding the brake isn’t working for me.
ACE Motors - sales & administration


Boxerman

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: 0
Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 03:11:11 pm
I bought the proper puller when I did mine.

Frank


Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Karma: 0
Reply #4 on: January 20, 2020, 10:03:52 pm
Since the head is off, I don't have a lot of compression.
  Got the rotor off. I used a strap wrench and 1/2" drive air wrench. The nut came right off. The puller worked a treat! This is my first time doing this, I appreciate the words of experience.
Now, finally the cams!
  The timing is different.... the exhaust cam notches line up on the crank gear. The dots of the Intake and Exhaust dots are one tooth off. See photo.
  The Intake cam can move back and forth, but it does not readily want to come out. What am I missing here?
See the other photo.
Bill
ACE Motors - sales & administration


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #5 on: January 20, 2020, 10:21:45 pm
  Your intake cam is one tooth advanced ... they should all line up.   Either they screwed up at the factory... OR...  the person who had that bike before you, was playing around with a little performance mod...  Not a bad idea   BTW. 

  Your intake cam is not coming out easily , because it is likely bound up against the exhaust cam gear  or the oil pump gear... gear lash.    So I would shift the motor into 5th gear, and rotate the motor over to a spot where the gear loosens up ... OR.... get a couple of wrenches and loosen the eccentric cam spindle nut, and adjust the gear lash so it loosens up and you can pull the gear out.    Rotating the motor over and finding "the loose spot " on the gears   should do it for you though.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Karma: 0
Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 10:24:41 pm
  Your intake cam is one tooth advanced ... they should all line up.   Either they screwed up at the factory... OR...  the person who had that bike before you, was playing around with a little performance mod...  Not a bad idea   BTW. 

  Your intake cam is not coming out easily , because it is likely bound up against the exhaust cam gear  or the oil pump gear... gear lash.    So I would shift the motor into 5th gear, and rotate the motor over to a spot where the gear loosens up ... OR.... get a couple of wrenches and loosen the eccentric cam spindle nut, and adjust the gear lash so it loosens up and you can pull the gear out.    Rotating the motor over and finding "the loose spot " on the gears   should do it for you though.

Thanks, GHG. I'll try turning it around.
Bill
ACE Motors - sales & administration


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #7 on: January 20, 2020, 10:52:01 pm
   When you put the new ones in,  I would NOT set the lash THAT tight, IMHO.     It should come out much easier then that , especially with the head and valve train removed.    Those gears should not bind up at all .  It rods power and creates wear.    If the intake cam is bound against the oil punt gear ?   Eventually it will rip  the plastic teeth out of the oil pump gear... not good !   I adjust exhaust to crank , then intake to exhaust.. with slight little perceptible play and movement, Cams should slide in and out on those spindles and between the gear teeth easily.... ALL the way around the cam gears as you rotate the motor with the valve train installed .    Better a little on the loose side then too fecking tight !   IMHO...   

  The bushings inside those cam gears... over time and miles... will take on the shape of those eccentric spindles.   So the gear teeth will mesh tighter and looser  from one side of the gear to the other.   This is why the recommend readjusting the gear lash in the book after a certain amount of miles.    If you measure the ID of those stock cams gear's, you will likely find that the ID is a little out of round.   This also shows up a bit on the gear teeth themselves. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:10:15 pm by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Adrian II

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,780
  • Karma: 0
  • Sharing my ignorance with anyone who needs it
Reply #8 on: January 21, 2020, 10:31:45 am
Quote
The bushings inside those cam gears... over time and miles... will take on the shape of those eccentric spindles.   So the gear teeth will mesh tighter and looser  from one side of the gear to the other.   This is why the recommend readjusting the gear lash in the book after a certain amount of miles.    If you measure the ID of those stock cams gear's, you will likely find that the ID is a little out of round.   This also shows up a bit on the gear teeth themselves.

That's weird. The eccentric adjustable cam spindles first appeared on the AVL models, the ones I have encountered have the outsides of the outer bearing sleeves ground perfectly round for the cam bush to run on, as you would expect with a normal cam spindle. The adjustment comes from having the bore of the outer sleeve off-center to provide the eccentric movement on the inner spindle when setting the cam gear lash. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if there's the option to do this on the UCE/EFI engines, but with the AVL motors I prefer to retro-fit the solid spindles off a cast iron Bullet, no worries then about incorrect adjustment, any eccentric running of the cam gear can be shown to be a defect with the cam gear or the cam bush.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 02:22:40 pm
   Probably not a bad idea to put in those Iron barrels Spindle ;)s ...

 On the UCE spindles I have seen, there is up to .011"  out of round on the outer sleeves on those spindles.... egg shaped.   Put a dial gauge on it and rotate it , from one side to the other.   This will also effect your valve timing to some degree, depending on how the gear lash is set.  When you adjust  the cams, they are rotating around each other a bit.  This effects  when the valves open and close, and it will effect the lobe separation angle .    One can drive themselves a little crazy  when degree-ing in cams.... you get a different result , with different adjustments.     You may have an LSA of 111, then maybe 109,  then maybe 114 and etc.   
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Adrian II

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,780
  • Karma: 0
  • Sharing my ignorance with anyone who needs it
Reply #10 on: January 21, 2020, 07:48:30 pm
Quote
On the UCE spindles I have seen, there is up to .011"  out of round on the outer sleeves on those spindles.... egg shaped

That's just lousy quality! How is that a bearing surface?  :o

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 12:14:55 am
   Yup , and design.   Really .... just WHY make them adjustable !?  ::)    The surface was fine.. the spindles sleeves  had a couple thousand miles on them .   What is the ID  of those AVL  Cams .... 16 mil ?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Karma: 0
Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 12:20:09 am
My ID is 16mm.
ACE Motors - sales & administration


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 12:44:40 am
My ID is 16mm.


 Yeah... the 535's and the 500's UCE's share the same cams.   Same part numbers.    I Believe ... even the 350's as well !   ::)
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Adrian II

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,780
  • Karma: 0
  • Sharing my ignorance with anyone who needs it
Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 09:52:41 am
Both the AVL and cast iron Bullet cams run on 5/8" O/D spindles, which is around 15.88mm, and a round 15.88mm if you're really lucky! Retro-fitting Bullet cams to an AVL is an option, but probably not for a UCE/EFI, as the gear tooth shape seems to have been changed, and as the UCE crank pinion is machined as part of the timing side shaft you can't do a wholesale cam and pinion swap.

The adjustable cam spindle thing was, I believe, an attempt by the factory to cut down on timing gear rattle, but it is of course something else to work loose and go out of adjustment. My AVL hybrid engine happily uses the old solid spindles - theses engines will never be totally silent mechanically.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...