Author Topic: Save me from selling my E5 Bullet!  (Read 5017 times)

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Roy L.

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on: October 20, 2019, 07:26:25 pm
Hi all
Well, I've had my E5 (a G5 without all the chrome) from new for 7 years now and have put 25,500km on it.
I live in Finland where we only get to ride for 5 - 6 months, and I've just put her to sleep for the coming winter.
Well, much as I love my bike, it just isn't fast enough to keep up with traffic safely on the few times you have to take a faster road - with say a 100km/h speed limit.
And there are actually plenty of those in this country and often the only way to get from A to B.
Nothing is worse than being constantly tailgated and overtaken, as we all know.
Finland's actually a walk in the park compared to other countries. I was crazy enough to ride to Poland a couple of years ago. Holy Mother.. I've never seen such terrible driving anywhere in Europe, and I've been all over the place. But, I digress..
Can anyone tell me how to make my bike go faster? I changed the front sprocket for an 18 (or 19..??) tooth a few years ago, but there's not a world of difference.
I'd say maximum comfortable cruising speed is 70kmh. At 80 its starts to shake. Can I really make this bike cruise at 100kmh?
Could anyone please share their experiences?
Most gratefully yours
Matt
 


gashousegorilla

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Reply #1 on: October 20, 2019, 08:33:40 pm
   For better Top end on these bikes and to make them more highway capable ....  where you start hitting that Brick Wall at 70-75 mph indicated on the stock Speedo in their stock form  ?    For Starters ...I would say a Larger head pipe and freer flowing muffler on the Exhaust.     The Stock  head pipe may LOOK large on the outside , but it is really just a pipe , inside a pipe .  The Inner pipe is ridiculously small at around 1 1/16"  ID.   It's fine for around town and good initial bottom end power.   But it REALLY  chokes the motor off at Higher RPM's like on the Highway.   A Simple and Inexpensive 5 " UNI pod filter stuck right onto the Throttle body... instead of the stock air box.. free's up the intake nicely and will help as well.   Better Cams are a MUST have I personally think.  no matter where you get them ...  Anything is better then Stock !   The stock Cams are just so ridiculously conservative  for any kind of " Normal Riding"  where you might encounter a Highway now and then ?!  :o   The factory should put better Cams in these bikes for their export markets  , like the old  Brit bike manufacturers use to do.    You'll also need to tune  your fueling for any Change  in how that air is moving in and the exhaust  moving out of that motor though... to get the best results .   
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ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: October 20, 2019, 08:52:37 pm
I generally agree with what GHG said above.
I would try starting out by freeing up the intake and exhaust flow, and optimize mixture with the Power Commander. See how that goes, and determine if you need more.
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Ove

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Reply #3 on: October 20, 2019, 10:38:31 pm
70km (c. 45mph) as your max comfortable cruising speed seems a bit on the low side though, especially with the 19t sprocket, dont you think? Mine isn't run in yet, but is very happy at 55mph to 60mph (just shy of 100kmh) on the stock sprocket (18t?). It feels quite a sweet spot. Haven't played much above that yet. Are your engine mounts, chassis bolts etc. all tight? My expectation is, even as standard, they should cruise happily at 100kmh.


Roy L.

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Reply #4 on: October 20, 2019, 10:55:36 pm
Great replies, thanks a lot!
I'll have to read more about the cams. Unknown territory for me, but I'll be reading up on that and maybe give it a go.
Yes, the freer-flowing intake / exhaust and EFI module. I was thinking the same.
Any good links for those?
Not in a hurry.. Bike's now holed up for 6 months..


Roy L.

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Reply #5 on: October 20, 2019, 11:03:40 pm
Hi Ove
Afaik (!!) everything is well-screwed down.
The engine is really nicely run in and purrs down the road. I've serviced it faithfully with fresh oil and filters every 10k. I always fill up with 98.
There's no way it has enough power to cruise at 100k. That's pretty much flat out, chin on the tank!
The difference between 70 and 80kmh is huge.
Maybe I should check the wheel alignment, but it's certainly a power issue.


Richard230

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Reply #6 on: October 20, 2019, 11:40:47 pm
I could see a 350 Bullet topping out at around 80 Kph, but a 500 should go faster.  ??? I have no problem holding an indicated 70 mph (an actual 110 Kph) on the freeway while riding my stock 2011 Bullet 500.
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GlennF

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Reply #7 on: October 21, 2019, 12:03:42 am
I can sit on 120 kmh all day on my B5. Top speed is an indicated 140kmh but it is probably actually more like 130 kmh accounting for an overly optimistic speedo. Still even 130kmh is vastly faster than 80kmh.

My B5 is a generic 500cc UCE engine and the only mod is a less restrictive exhaust.

If the OP bike is a 500 something is badly wrong.

What is the shaking referred to in the original post ? Is the engine out of balance ?  Or possibly the rev limiter is cutting in way too early.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 12:13:25 am by GlennF »


Bilgemaster

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Reply #8 on: October 21, 2019, 02:58:33 am
Like Richard230, at first I thought you might have been talking about a 350. If you're struggling to cruise comfortably at 100 km/h (62 mph), even on a stock 500 UCE, then something's just not right...and yours even has an extra tooth on that drive sprocket, huh? Even my old "iron belly" will toot along happily at that speed hour after hour when needed, though I tend to prefer poking along more gently in the low to mid 50s (80 to 90 km/h).

You could try a freer-flowing exhaust and some of the other suggestions found here for improved performance, but I have a hunch that something more fundamental is robbing your bike of the power it should already have.
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Ove

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Reply #9 on: October 21, 2019, 06:56:22 am
Brakes binding? Tyre pressures?


Rattlebattle

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Reply #10 on: October 21, 2019, 07:46:14 am
Is there a partial blockage in the tank vent? This would cause fuel starvation at wide throttle openings. Not sure gearing up to 19 tooth sprocket results in higher cruising speed without air intake and exhaust mods. BTW do you really mean servicing every 10k (6,000 miles)? If so it needs doing more frequently.
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #11 on: October 21, 2019, 08:25:58 am
My 2013 B5 (carbureted with an aftermarket pipe) feels overstressed at much over 55-60 mph. While I'm sure it could go faster, and could be made a little faster yet, I'm a bit wary of running that antique design long stroke made in India too fast. A modern 500 single would keep up with traffic easily, but they are all short stroke, made out of better materials, and have much better build quality. When I need to go fast, I have a Kawasaki Vulcan 750 and a H-D Sportster 1200, both of which will easily top 100 mph with room to spare. I ride the Enfield for recreation only, because it is so much fun to ride. I also only have a 6 month riding season, but because of extreme heat, not cold. I have a safe place to keep it during that time, and start it up and warm it up at lest twice a week. Sometimes in the summer I will get up before sunup and take it for a short ride. There is no way it would keep up on our urban freeways, but we have a lot of slower secondary roads it can be ridden safely on. We also have a lot of speeders. When I see someone coming up behind me, I move to the right to let them by. Especially since putting the carburetor and pipe on it, I have developed an emotional relationship with it and don't want to give it up. For me, the Enfield is what it is, and I'm happy thumping along at 55 mph. Even my 234cc Honda Rebel will outrun it, I've had it at a GPS 80 mph for short periods before. Despite the small engine, it is a short stroke twin using late '70s Japanese technology, so it is built like an anvil. You can ride it at full throttle for a very long time without harming it. If the Enfield is your only transportation, and won't do the job, you may have to replace it with something else. Maybe one of the new twins?
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9fingers

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Reply #12 on: October 21, 2019, 12:23:47 pm
70km (c. 45mph) as your max comfortable cruising speed seems a bit on the low side though, especially with the 19t sprocket, dont you think? Mine isn't run in yet, but is very happy at 55mph to 60mph (just shy of 100kmh) on the stock sprocket (18t?). It feels quite a sweet spot. Haven't played much above that yet. Are your engine mounts, chassis bolts etc. all tight? My expectation is, even as standard, they should cruise happily at 100kmh.

I agree with Ove. Is the shaking you mention from engine vibration or is the bike starting to wiggle and the handlebars dance around? What tires and pressure are you running and how much do you weigh? My C5, with 19 tooth, cruises comfortably at 75mph indicated, probably closer to 70 actual.
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Roy L.

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Reply #13 on: October 21, 2019, 02:58:42 pm
Well.. That's all really interesting!! Thanks to everyone for all these replies.

I'll try and be more specific..
Had the bike from new (2012) and ran it in really carefully. Man, it was awful at first and could hardly pull 80kmh for the first 5000km.
I noticed a significant improvement in performance at around 12,000km when it started to run really nicely.
I've never had any trouble with it apart from a stuck starter relay solenoid earlier this year, which I quickly replaced.
It accelerates well in town traffic - I think! I've nothing to compare it to..
The engine pops along smoothly and it handles very nicely all day without a care in the world at 70kmh, but take it up to 80 and it's struggling. The engine noise increases significantly and it's starting to shake.
I have pushed it up to 100kmh (whatever that is on an Enfield clock) on a handful of occasions but that was flat out on the tank.
It starts first time, every time, No excessive smoke of any colour comes out of the exhaust.
I weigh about 100kg / 15st.

A blockage in the tank vent? I'll certainly get it seen to. Sadly I won't see it again until April, so I can't check immediately. The bike's now in a barn 50km away. I did have the tank resprayed first year I had it after it got a little bit scratched (and I had too much money..) by a magnetic tank bag.
 
My brakes are fine and I check my tyre pressures - which are fatter replacements pumped to 1.7 / 1.9 bar.

suitcasejefferson's reply was somehow reassuring that it's not just me, but you other guys are getting performance I never dreamed possible.

Glenn, could you tell me the details of your exhaust, please? Pipe and muffler? Are you also using a Power Commander or some such?

I was looking at replacement exhausts last night. Hitchcock's have a replacement free-flow "bend" model, but I need the straight one due to my front crash bar being so close. Hitchcock's mention nothing about free-flow mufflers. Does the factory muffler inhibit performance so badly? Do any of you kind chaps know of any good Indian suppliers and specific pipes and mufflers I could use? None of the suppliers I looked at mentioned anything about performance mufflers. I'm not worried about original model looks.

I reckon I should get a compression test, too.

Thanks again all

Matt
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 03:12:28 pm by Roy L. »


axman88

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Reply #14 on: October 21, 2019, 04:13:30 pm
I agree with the previous comments that something is amiss with your bike and it's not achieving it's designed performance.  I'd look more to tuning / repair than to modification.

My 2012 C5 is entirely stock.  I bought it two years ago with just under 1700 miles on the odometer and it's at around 5400 miles now.  My bike is entirely stock, with 18 tooth front sprocket, stock air cleaner and stock exhaust.  The silencer is the shorter stock one, and is in need of replacement with substantial chrome pitting.  I haven't noticed any substantive change in performance, over time, except the exhaust seems louder.  There is a baffle in place at the back end.  Do these silencers have fiber or other material inside that may have been burnt / blown out over time? 

My C5 can cruise happily at 100kph and maxes out at around 120kph, with me in a "very slightly tucked" position.  One of these days I'll remember to extend the rear pegs before getting on the expressway and do a real full tuck max speed run.  I am 6'1" and close to 100kg (220).  My bike has 18" front wheel, so I'd expect "less" indicated speed inflation than the later bikes with the 19" front wheels

My 2012 C5 was a US export market bike, and therefore has fuel injection and an O2 sensor.  If your bike is the same configuration, consider that a dirty fuel injector could have major impact on top end power.

I read somewhere that going to a higher sprocket count had a negative effect on top speed for somebody's Royal Enfield, but it was a matter of a few mph, and not a consideration for what you are experiencing.  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I did the ratio calculation, and the theorytical top speed based on hitting the rev limiter was something like 85 mph.  This means that the bike's top speed is power limited, not rev limited.  For this reason, and because the vast majority of my riding is city streets, I wouldn't choose to go to a higher front sprocket tooth count.

Engine management electronics are great when they work, but nothing but a nuisance when they don't work right.  Besides the partially clogged injector I mentioned above, any of the following items not working correctly could put your machine into a rich, limp home mode, that would have a major impact on top speed:
     -  Throttle postions sensor
     -  manifold pressure sensor
     -  engine speed sensor
If your bike has behaved like this its entire life, it's perhaps also possible that the cams were installed incorrectly and valve timing is a bit off.

What kind of gas mileage were you getting last riding season?


Roy L.

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Reply #15 on: October 21, 2019, 06:06:20 pm
Thanks axman.
Yes, it would seem something has not been right with it since new.
I took the fuel injector off last year and gave it a good clean. It looked just fine.
My mileage (kilometerage?) is great. I can do 100km with around 3ltrs - or in US money: 75 mpg.
My buddy the farmer who's keeping my bike in his barn can do a compression test, so I guess that's the next logical step.
There's a good guide to that in my manual.

I wish I'd asked this question in April - about 6 years ago!


gashousegorilla

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Reply #16 on: October 21, 2019, 10:54:10 pm
   Simple stuff first.  Dumb question time here .... ;D.     BUT , how sure are you about your speeds  Roy ?   Did you compare your speedo reading to a GPS ?   Perhaps with an app on your Phone  ?    I think most people would be shocked at the difference.     Enfield speedo's  are not known for being the most precise instruments .... particularly on the earlier UCE's.     Some are good , some are slow and some stick high and some swing wildly at times  and Some break internally and etc. . Greasing the speedo cable also can make a world of difference... 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 11:00:19 pm by gashousegorilla »
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Roy L.

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Reply #17 on: October 22, 2019, 03:48:48 pm
Hi
My clock tends to be way too optimistic at low speeds. There are many electronic speed display signs round here near schools that show you your speed as you pass - they're nearly always in 30 or 40kmh limit zones to encourage drivers to keep their speeds down. When I pass them I'll have just short of 10kmh on the clock more than the display.

The accuracy of the speedometer improves at higher speeds. I've been on rallies where they pay strict attention to road speeds and when in an 80kmh zone (it can do it !!) that's exactly what I had on the clock.

My buddy at the farm will be doing a compression check for me hopefully this week, so I think that's a good place to start.
I'll get back with those results asap.


heloego

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Reply #18 on: October 22, 2019, 04:20:34 pm
My 2012 UCE is running with the stock header, free-flowing exhaust, and EJK system (no O2 sensor) left at stock settings.

Keep in mind that anything interfering with the air flow will adversely affect your performance at higher power settings. Verify you have normal flow by checking your filter/intake for full functionality, exhaust port and header inlet,even the silencer for blockage of some kind.
I had a similar problem losing power and couldn't get it to go past 80kmh unless I was going downhill full throttle. After MUCH troubleshooting that even had the guys here stumped, it turned out the problem was blockage at the exhaust port/header where I had applied too much exhaust paste during maintenance. The stuff expanded with the heat and closed off the flow about 80%! Once cleaned and re-assembled she's a happy RE.  ;D

I now use high temp silicone sealant. Period.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 04:27:21 pm by heloego »
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Roy L.

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Reply #19 on: October 22, 2019, 08:15:48 pm
Great reply heloego, thanks!
You just disconnect the 02 sensor?


GlennF

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Reply #20 on: October 22, 2019, 11:44:52 pm
Great reply heloego, thanks!
You just disconnect the 02 sensor?

He has an EJK which replaces the stock EFI controller with a programmable one.


axman88

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Reply #21 on: October 23, 2019, 01:20:59 am
We assume from your comments, RoyL, that your machine has fuel injection and a O2 sensor?  The ones for Europe and USA were set up like that, whereas bikes for the Indian market, and perhaps Indonesia had EFI, but with a "look-up" table type of ECU computer and no 02 sensor.  The ECU can be reprogrammed anyone with the Royal Enfield software, (dealers), and there are aftermarket controllers available.  Also, it isn't uncommon for people to replace the entire EFI system with a carburetor.  The 350s for India only still have, and manage to meet BS IV emmissions standards with, carburetors.

It's never hurts to say exactly what equipment you have on your bike, when asking for advice.

Since your bike quite possibly came from the factory with the issue you described, it may be particularly difficult to diagnose.  It's unfortunate that your local dealer is no longer in business.

Taking it step by step, and verifying each component will ultimately find the problem.  I don't know any way to test the ECU computer, but every sensor can be checked, and REs are quite simple mechanically, as motorcycles go.

You may want to consider investing in a carburetor, simply as a diagnostic tool, even if you prefer EFI.  One nice thing about these Indian bikes, all the parts are quite cheap, via Ebay or Amazon, from suppliers in India.


gizzo

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Reply #22 on: October 23, 2019, 05:10:52 am
I can sit on 120 kmh all day on my B5. Top speed is an indicated 140kmh but it is probably actually more like 130 kmh accounting for an overly optimistic speedo. Still even 130kmh is vastly faster than 80kmh.



Same here on my '14 Continental GT.  38,000km and always been ridden "sporty" like. 120 all day and tops out at around 145, verified by GPS. I can't help thinking something's not right if the OP's bike can't pull 100.  Maybe cam timing is way out or something. Or, might just be an unlucky bike.
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Ove

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Reply #23 on: October 23, 2019, 07:18:21 am
As I understood it, you have two problems?
1. Vibration at/above 80kmh
2. Lack of top speed performance

For 1. factors such as the balance of rotating components and the tightness of mountings may be at play
For 2. A compression test seems a good 1st step. De-Coke may be due, but doesn't explain why it's always been this way. Air, exhaust or fuel flow may be worth checking, timing too? Something that can persist for long mileages without failures. A dyno run will tell you if engine output is the cause. Other causes, giving the effect of reduced power might be worth looking at, such as binding brakes, tyre pressures, bearings, but these would most likely have corrected themselves or failed by 20,000+ kms. 

Maybe check they didnt put a 350 in by mistake!  ::)


Roy L.

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Reply #24 on: October 23, 2019, 10:14:34 am
You're all extremely kind with these suggestions and help. Thanks!

Yeah, it's a European spec model with an 02 sensor and fuel injector.
I'm not going to bother sticking a carburettor on it. It's too much messing about.
I have a feeling that Heloego might have nailed it with the blockage diagnosis as his former problem sounds just like mine.
But for now I'm just going to wait on the compression test result.

I've just uploaded a video for your viewing pleasure!
https://youtu.be/du5wH0Kmwok

BR
Matt


gashousegorilla

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Reply #25 on: October 23, 2019, 11:07:58 pm
    If you haven't already Roy, take a look at your air filter and your whole intake track as well, and see how dirty it is.    Here is why....  the air boxes on those bike's have TWO hose connection pubs on them.  One is at the front right side of the box... this is where the crank case vent hose connects to.    And there is another hose connection pub at the bottom of the air box.    It is difficult to see unless you are looking for it or if you take the whole air box out.   THAT one I have found open , with nothing attached to it.  And a Filthy Throttle body and intake to go along with it !  That lower Pub connection is pointing down towards the chain...    I really don't know why it is there ?   Maybe just as another option to attach the crank vent hose two .    I see no other purpose for it.    But anyway... if either one of those hose pub connections ARE open ,  that air being pulled into the air box will be un-filtered .  It will by-pass the filter and go right into the intake.
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GlennF

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Reply #26 on: October 23, 2019, 11:33:55 pm
I think the significant point is the bike has a 40% lower top speed than it should for a 500 and it vibrates at 80 kmh when (given the sprocket mod) it should actually be just cruising along at a bit over half maximum revs.

You either have a 350 or something is seriously amiss.


gashousegorilla

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Reply #27 on: October 23, 2019, 11:40:31 pm
   And unfiltered air could wreak havoc on the intake valve and seat as well as the ring seal over time .   I think a simple compression test as a first step is a good idea...
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axman88

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Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 05:01:21 am
Thanks for posting the video Matt.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys in here could diagnose most engine problems from a short video with audio like that.

Does anyone else think that the valve clatter audible in Matt's video was a bit more than should be expected, or is that about normal?


Roy L.

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Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 11:24:37 am
More great advice, thanks gents.

As the bike's not here, sadly I can't check any of these things right now.
I'm confident though that with all your help, I'll get this sorted out.
As I mentioned, my buddy's going to check the compression and then we can take it further.
I hate to rush him as he works 14 hrs a day every day, but I'll drop him a gentle reminder at the weekend.

Cheers from a sunny South Finland


Rattlebattle

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Reply #30 on: October 24, 2019, 05:11:21 pm
I wouldn't say the engine sounds particularly noisy. I feel that if the intake side is not clogged then it's likely to be fuel starvation at wide throttle openings. Could the fuel pump be partially blocked? Not sure what the flow rate should be on these bikes or whether or not it can be tested in situ. A look at the spark plug might be useful - does it look excessively lean after a fast run? Whilst the ignition timing is non-adjustable, I suppose it's just possible than the rotor was fitted on the crankshaft a little out of alignment - mine has a little play despite having a Woodruff key - ie it's a bit of a sloppy fit. If the timing were a little retarded throughout there range it would restrict performance. This is a real long shot though, but I do wonder why it's never been right. Another possibility is that if you followed the ludicrously low running-in speed suggested in the manual the engine has not run in properly. Have you tried an Italian tune-up - ie given it a good thrashing?
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Roy L.

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Reply #31 on: October 24, 2019, 08:22:00 pm
Hi Rattlebattle
I ran it in meticulously. Didn't even try to go above 80 for the 1st 10,000kms.
Then it started running like a dream. Great response and power. Just, no decent higher speed performance.
This may be interesting - There's actually a discernable a difference when I fill up with Shell's V-Power petrol.
Could that be due to the cleaning agents in the fuel, I wonder. Hmm. I'm really thinking blockage now..

I love the idea of an Italian Thrashing!
I'm only familiar with the Torquay Thrashing..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0onXhyLlE


gashousegorilla

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Reply #32 on: October 24, 2019, 11:39:48 pm
Thanks for posting the video Matt.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys in here could diagnose most engine problems from a short video with audio like that.

Does anyone else think that the valve clatter audible in Matt's video was a bit more than should be expected, or is that about normal?

   A little clattery when he first rev'd it after starting it ?    But better the second time he rev'ed it.  Pressure may have not built up fully in the lifters the first time ... but OK by the second time he rev'ed it.   Other then that ,  to me it actually started up and ran pretty well.  And over all sounded normal .   IF ... a lifter was collapsing at higher rev's , that would shorten the duration on his cams.  On the Intake side he may still have good bottom end , but no top end.   And if it was the exhaust side ... a shorter duration might restrict.  BUT... I would think he would hear a gawd awful racket  if his lifters were collapsing at higher RPM's.     If his lifters or a lifter pumped at higher Rpm's ... from loosing control of the valve train due to a weak valve spring or a auto-decomp hanging  up,  than l sudden loss of compression could do it to.

   If his cam timing was off ?     If the Intake were advanced a tooth....  he would have much better power down low and good mid range , and give up a little in the top end.    More then one tooth on the intake , would likely have the  valve tapping the the piston around TDC.    If his intake were retarded one tooth he would have better mid range and top end.    Two teeth back , and he'd have good mid range any everything else would be not so great... it would be harder to start the bike that way with less compression.    If his exhaust  opening late and closing late... that may kill his top end as well on a stock cam..


Hi Rattlebattle
I ran it in meticulously. Didn't even try to go above 80 for the 1st 10,000kms.
Then it started running like a dream. Great response and power. Just, no decent higher speed performance.
This may be interesting - There's actually a discernable a difference when I fill up with Shell's V-Power petrol.
Could that be due to the cleaning agents in the fuel, I wonder. Hmm. I'm really thinking blockage now..

I love the idea of an Italian Thrashing!
I'm only familiar with the Torquay Thrashing..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0onXhyLlE

   Certainly do the compression test first.... It can tell a world about the condition of the engine.  Rings , valves , cam timing and etc.  And maybe set you in the right direction..  IF... there is a internal problem with the motor.   

 To check your fuel pump and fuel delivery , really the  only was to know for sure is to cut in a tee fitting between the fuel pump and the injector  and check the pressure with a fuel pressure gauge.   It should be 42-43 psi.  And it should maintain that as you rev the motor . And stay there when you shut the motor off.    Also the pressure should also not be too high... that might indicate a problem  with the regulator in the fuel pump.     If the pressure is  too high  or spiking high, you maybe running too rich and bogging out ... your head pipe shows very little bluing around that first bend in the pipe .   So I don't think you are running lean BTW.     Another problem that I have found with fuel delivery , is the insulator between the intake manifold and the cylinder head.   There is a clearance notch in it for the tip of the injector ...  I have seen those put in the wrong way around , so the spray of the injector is obstructed.  And  I have also seen them blasted apart by the injector , with a piece of the insulator blocking the injector. 

   The higher octane fuel 93 fuel , should really only help if your motor is pinging.    As if your compression was TOO high due to your combustion chamber being REALLY carboned up ... and it would take a LOT  of Carbon build up to raise your compression ratio above say .. 10:1  or so.  I doubt it.  If the detergents in the good fuel are cleaning things up ... then when you ran the regular fuel ... it should behave about the same, because you cleaned things out with the good stuff.


 Another possible exhaust restriction could be the inner pipe inside the head pipe .  I have seen them break inside at the 02 sensor opening.   It is week there , where they drill the whole between the outer pipe and the inner pipe , and it breaks off at that spot.  The inner pipe will shift a little inside and possibly obstruct the exhaust flow.    Take a screw driver and tap  the handle of the screw driver along the head pipe and listen for any rattles..   

 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 02:29:12 am by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Roy L.

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Reply #33 on: October 25, 2019, 08:31:25 pm
Another top-class reply GHG, thanks.
There are no unpleasant sounds from the bike at all - anymore. When it was new it sounded like a rattling box full of nuts and bolts. Oh my, those first oil changes.. But after 2 careful years it started running great. It doesn't like cold mornings however and can be a little stuttery for the first mile or so at low revs.
I just don't have a bad feeling about the engine, to be honest. It runs absolutely great. After all the advice given above, I'm really thinking FLOW of some kind. Fuel, air, exhaust.
One of our board members has offered to sell me his PC-V very reasonably and I'm going to do it. I also like the idea of a whole new free-flow exhaust, silencer and air-filter.
GHG, right back at the beginning of this epic thread you mentioned fitting a "5 " UNI pod filter stuck right onto the Throttle body." Having seen my bike, are you sure there's enough room to get one of those fitted in that way? Do you have any photos of that? Can you point me to an exact model, please? What do you think about the K+N?

BR as always


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Reply #34 on: October 26, 2019, 12:23:14 am
I had poor luck with my "made specifically for the Royal Enfield Bullet" K&N filter when I used it in my 2011 G5 Deluxe.

The air box on the G5 is slightly different from the B5 and C5 so maybe that was the reason but in any case, the K&N air filter restricted the airflow and reduced both the top speed and the fuel economy.
I went back to the OEM paper filter and set the K&N on a shelf in my workshop, where it will stay.
Jim
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #35 on: October 26, 2019, 01:39:21 am
Another top-class reply GHG, thanks.
There are no unpleasant sounds from the bike at all - anymore. When it was new it sounded like a rattling box full of nuts and bolts. Oh my, those first oil changes.. But after 2 careful years it started running great. It doesn't like cold mornings however and can be a little stuttery for the first mile or so at low revs.
I just don't have a bad feeling about the engine, to be honest. It runs absolutely great. After all the advice given above, I'm really thinking FLOW of some kind. Fuel, air, exhaust.
One of our board members has offered to sell me his PC-V very reasonably and I'm going to do it. I also like the idea of a whole new free-flow exhaust, silencer and air-filter.
GHG, right back at the beginning of this epic thread you mentioned fitting a "5 " UNI pod filter stuck right onto the Throttle body." Having seen my bike, are you sure there's enough room to get one of those fitted in that way? Do you have any photos of that? Can you point me to an exact model, please? What do you think about the K+N?

BR as always

   Well ... I'm thinking if your in Finland , that it is likely cold there a lot of the times ?...  Especially in the mornings ?   Even in the summer maybe  ?    ;D   I could be wrong though , because I have no Idea and have never been there.  " Finland" to ME  now , just sounds cold .  ;D   So If I am somewhat right about that ?  I think you could use a thinner oil ... like a 10w-40  or a 10w-50 if you have it over there.   That should help you with those cold start ups , and  get oil into your lifter's and top end quicker  on those cold mornings.   These bikes take a LONG time to worn up !  They have excellent oiling and cooling features , and they do not run hot generally.

  I think a lot of this .." It takes 1500 or 2000 miles for the motor to free up and run smooth stuff".... has to do a lot with the Cam gear lash set at the factory on these bikes.   I think they set the gears too tight.   It takes forever for them to wear in .. They are HARD steel gear teeth.  A lot of power is also lost when they are set too tight.... turn you motor over by hand when they are adjusted a little loose versus too tight, you'll see what I mean .  And I think ... I KNOW !... that they make a racket when they are set too tight.

   The Uni filter that I and other have had good luck with is a UP-5182 part number .  Yes it will fit , because you will remove the stock air box that would be in the way.  Your crankcase vent, you can just route back along the frame over the area of the chain and loop it down pointing at the chain, or out and back off the rear fender.  No worries I think,  about anything getting sucked back into the crank  case vent.  Pull the crankcase vent  hose off of the side cover while that bike is running , and tell me if you think anything is going to to get sucked INTO  that motor ?  It's a steady blast of air coming out of there.   You can also tee in a sediment trap along that length of vent hose ... a six inch section off of the main vent line with a cap on the end ,  to trap , collect  and then  drain that watery mayonnaise like oil  instead of it getting getting on your chain if you want.    Up to you .  BUT... you do not want to restrict that vent line with ANYTHING in my opinion , because pressure could build up at higher  RPM's  and you start leaking out out of your gaskets and seals.   I have had NO luck with any kind of  PC-V valve on these bikes.   And when you are done with all that ... just put the stock right side cover back on and it will all look the same from the outside .  ;D    BTW... That Uni filter will lay right on  that flat section , behind the oval tool box on the right side of the bike  on a C-5.... almost like it was meant for it.   On either bike a six inch rubber tube added between the throttle body and that  Uni filter  will be better in the mid  range.    Tough to fit in on a C-5 because of space... but perfect on a G-5/ Electra  with that stock air box gone.


  Good deal on the PC-V ...  I personally think it is the best and most versatile tuner out there for these bikes.   But remember... because people wont always tell you  or they are vague about it...  you must have that bike tuned or you tune it for the changes.   And no two bikes are the same , even when they have the same modifications.   So you should tune or have tuned, your bike , with your modifications and where you are located.   Little  things like  the type of fuel you use locally, your altitude , the TPS reading on your bike vs others and etc.   The condition of YOUR motor vs others and etc.

  I think K&N filters are good filters ... but pricey.   I think the biggest benefit from them is that they are reusable .   Inside the stock air box ?   I don't see them doing much of anything at all in this case with the Enfield.   As you can see By Arizoni comments above ... I have not heard good things about them .  That could be because they are more restrictive .. with all that oil on them ... then stock ?     OR... it could be because they are less restrictive then stock , and the air fuel ratio is getting leaned out a bit and you actually loose power ?   I'm not sure myself  as I never had a need for that type of " in the box filter. "   It would be easy to tell on the dyno what's going on , or with a wide band sensor in the head pipe.   But I think a Similar sized K&N to the Uni might be OK.  I like the Uni's because they  DO flow a good amount of air and filter well , and a I believe the foam smooths out the air flow past the MAP sensor.   I like them...   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 01:53:32 am by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Roy L.

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Reply #36 on: October 26, 2019, 10:42:41 am
Thanks for the comment Arizoni. Interesting. I think I'll go with GSG's recommendation for a Uni filter, then.

Hey GSG. Thanks again for all of that!
Quote
... tell me if you think anything is going to to get sucked INTO  that motor
I sure will, buddy. In April! That's the soonest I'll be seeing her again.
All your help here has pretty much persuaded me to give the bike one more season at least and get those flow mods on it.
The Uni filter sounds good, so I'll get one of those on order.
FYI: Finland and weather, think Minnesota. Long cold winter, 6-month riding window - 4 of those usually absolutely beautiful weather. Welcome anytime GSG (and bring your overalls ;-)

Has anyone any experience of AEW exhaust systems from India? I like the look of this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293041762118?ul_noapp=true#shpCntId
Supplier just replied to me that it's an original AEW. They seem to get positive reviews on YouTube.
Cost approx. 130GBP / 150EUR / 165USD incl shipping


Enfield Pro

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Reply #37 on: October 26, 2019, 12:04:51 pm
Has anyone any experience of AEW exhaust systems from India? I like the look of this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293041762118?ul_noapp=true#shpCntId
Supplier just replied to me that it's an original AEW. They seem to get positive reviews on YouTube.
Cost approx. 130GBP / 150EUR / 165USD incl shipping

I don't have specific experience with this silencer, but here are my complaints about Indian market silencers in general.

Some styles are super heavy.

The finish is below standard compared to chrome you would find in the U.S. or U.K.

Fitment is never "bolt on" out of the box. You will probably need a universal bracket in addition to whatever hardware they supply.

I'm not saying don't buy it, just manage your expectations.

The listing does not specify if this silencer fits 350 or 500cc I would clarify that for sure.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 12:10:19 pm by Enfield Pro »
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #38 on: October 26, 2019, 11:18:37 pm
Thanks for the comment Arizoni. Interesting. I think I'll go with GSG's recommendation for a Uni filter, then.

Hey GSG. Thanks again for all of that!I sure will, buddy. In April! That's the soonest I'll be seeing her again.
All your help here has pretty much persuaded me to give the bike one more season at least and get those flow mods on it.
The Uni filter sounds good, so I'll get one of those on order.
FYI: Finland and weather, think Minnesota. Long cold winter, 6-month riding window - 4 of those usually absolutely beautiful weather. Welcome anytime GSG (and bring your overalls ;-)

Has anyone any experience of AEW exhaust systems from India? I like the look of this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293041762118?ul_noapp=true#shpCntId
Supplier just replied to me that it's an original AEW. They seem to get positive reviews on YouTube.
Cost approx. 130GBP / 150EUR / 165USD incl shipping


  Ahhhh.....  Like Minnesota .   So your basically snowed in about now, right ?   :o ;D ;)    And no ... I was just being a bit sarcastic with the with the crank vent.    You should feel a steady and  strong flow of air blowing out of that thing when it is running.     If that vent is blocked , you would know it .    Oil would be blowing out of all your seals and gaskets ! ;)


  As for as a muffler for good top end ?   I would say a tapered, wide open megaphone about 12-18 inches long ... if you  and your neighbors can tolerate the sound  ?...   Hahaha !    ;)    Or to tone it down a bit ,  a tapered muffler like a reverse cone , a Dunstall , or a Goldstar type.   Kinda like the one you posted there , without that eagle beak on the end .  The less packing or baffling you can tolerate the better.   The tapered shape will allow  the hot exhaust pulse to expand inside that muffler , and help scavenge the pipe at higher RPM's.     Things CAN get loud when you crack that throttle open at higher RPM's , but it's effective.    Emgo makes a bunch of reasonably priced universal mufflers that should fit the bill.     

The head pipe should be at least a 1 5/8 " pipe for good top end ... actually port matched to the exhaust port and then move up to that 1 5/8"   .   Bigger is even better... but I would say between a 1 5/8 - 1 7/8 head pipe .   Keep it smaller if your not getting Cams.   My daily beater bike has a custom made stepped 1 5/8 " pipe ... it's actually a stock head pipe , that has been cut open and that puny ,crazy straw sized inner pipe removed and I welded back together.  My hot rod bike has  a stepped  1 7/8 pipe .   But you should be able to find something out there .  If not ?    Take you shock pipe to a muffler shop and say ... " here , make this, in this size."    If you are going to tune the bike yourself ... with something like that auto tuner add on to the PC-V ?     Then you will need an 18 mm threaded bung welded onto that head pipe , for the wide band sensor... in place of the stock 12 mm narrow band sensor.   But if you are taking it to a Dyno instead ? ... then you don't need to do it.

 Once you get the head pipe on ... don't put the muffler on just yet.   Take a grease pencil , and mark the head pipe with lines , spaced about one inch apart  for about 8-12 inches on either side  of the foot peg.  Then take the bike out for a short blast and bring it up to around 4500-5000 rpms... being careful to not get the pipe too hot and melt  ALL your marks.   At the spot where you find one mark melted and the one next to it not melted ... cut your head pipe off right there, and stick your muffler on at that point. You'll get even better top end that way..  ;)

 

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 11:43:23 pm by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Roy L.

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Reply #39 on: October 27, 2019, 09:26:52 am
Quote
manage your expectations
Hi EP! Indeed. Thanks for all of that sound advice - it's duly noted.
AEW pipes seem to have a decent reputation in India. This guy in Tasmania seems to be enjoying his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rlgEErk--E

Hey GHG. Once again, all top stuff. I'm really up for this now.
Loved that last paragraph. Never heard that before. Certainly going to do it just to be able to nonchalantly drop it into a conversation.  ;D
Oh, you can take the internal pipe out of the existing header? Nice. My farmer-buddy is a welder, so he can do that. I hate just throwing stuff away.
Btw, Minus degrees and Fargo-esque up in Lapland already. Down here in Helsinki it's an overcast +3c this morning. Hope to get some snow starting December to brighten the place up!


heloego

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Reply #40 on: October 27, 2019, 01:36:48 pm
"Loved that last paragraph. Never heard that before. Certainly going to do it just to be able to nonchalantly drop it into a conversation."

As did/had I!  :) Well worth knowing, and when we reach that point on my current project this will be a definite step!
Thanks GHG!  ;D
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tooseevee

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Reply #41 on: October 27, 2019, 03:27:08 pm

Oh, you can take the internal pipe out of the existing header? Nice. My farmer-buddy is a welder, so he can do that. I hate just throwing stuff away.


           You can cut that hot tube loose very easily with a cutting wheel on a Dremel tool if you don't want to cut the header pipe shorter. You just have to cut the tack welds loose.

            Did that on my AVL long time ago; took about 10 minutoes  :)




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gashousegorilla

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Reply #42 on: October 27, 2019, 04:47:26 pm
Hi EP! Indeed. Thanks for all of that sound advice - it's duly noted.
AEW pipes seem to have a decent reputation in India. This guy in Tasmania seems to be enjoying his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rlgEErk--E

Hey GHG. Once again, all top stuff. I'm really up for this now.
Loved that last paragraph. Never heard that before. Certainly going to do it just to be able to nonchalantly drop it into a conversation.  ;D
Oh, you can take the internal pipe out of the existing header? Nice. My farmer-buddy is a welder, so he can do that. I hate just throwing stuff away.
Btw, Minus degrees and Fargo-esque up in Lapland already. Down here in Helsinki it's an overcast +3c this morning. Hope to get some snow starting December to brighten the place up!

"Loved that last paragraph. Never heard that before. Certainly going to do it just to be able to nonchalantly drop it into a conversation."

As did/had I!  :) Well worth knowing, and when we reach that point on my current project this will be a definite step!
Thanks GHG!  ;D


    Hillbilly Exhaust tunin' .... taught to me by the master  ;)   Simple and quite effective.   One should not have to spend a mint to go fast,  particularly on an Enfield !    Simple trick's and the accumulation of all the little horses here and there add up.  ;)

  There is another FUN way of doing it in your garage..... Muhahaha !    Take a larger diameter  "slipper pipe" , that you can slide back and forth over the outlet end of the head pipe .    Rev the motor up.... UP !!!.... as you slide that slipper pipe back and forth until you find the  "SPOT" .   You will know when you are there , because your ears will be ringing, you will be seeing star's , your teeth will be rattling in your head, parts will be falling off the shelf,  and your wife will come running into the garage screaming at you !   Hahaha !     But who cares ? 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


gizzo

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Reply #43 on: October 27, 2019, 07:53:33 pm

   There is another FUN way of doing it in your garage..... Muhahaha !    Take a larger diameter  "slipper pipe" , that you can slide back and forth over the outlet end of the head pipe .    Rev the motor up.... UP !!!.... as you slide that slipper pipe back and forth until you find the  "SPOT" .   You will know when you are there , because your ears will be ringing, you will be seeing star's , your teeth will be rattling in your head, parts will be falling off the shelf,  and your wife will come running into the garage screaming at you !   Hahaha !     But who cares ?

That sounds a lot like the time I started a Bailey pulse jet on the back porch. Especially the wife part.
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wildbill

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Reply #44 on: October 27, 2019, 11:26:43 pm
my thoughts would be this-if you replace the plug with a ngkbpr6es and then put on a free flow exhaust as per the video link below - these are the only two mods I usually do to most of the 15 uce bikes ive owned over the past 7 years and at the moment that's down to ZERO...LOL  but saying that its enough to get them well over 100 kph cruise.
if those two mods don't make a difference then i'd say you have a problem some-there as just that change in plug helps and that change of exhaust from stock to sports helps hugely and picks up a fair bit of get up and go. check out the clip
https://youtu.be/G56P5AA0jEY


Roy L.

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Reply #45 on: October 28, 2019, 05:10:18 pm
Thanks Bill!
That megaphone might try the patience of my excellent neighbours somewhat.
I think it might also interest every police patrol within half a mile!
Thanks for the spark plug recommendation. That I certainly will check out ;-)


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Reply #46 on: November 01, 2019, 03:25:23 pm
Are you sure it wouldn't be easier just to fit a carb? I got fed up of my C5 stuttering in the cold weather and, given the choice of paying quite a lot for a PCV or a fair bit less for a Hitchcock's carb conversion, I chose the latter. Out of interest I changed back last year, then remembered why I put a carb on in the first place and re-fitted it. I have three exhausts, including the original, and can easily change them with a bit of carb adjustment. I've kept all the EFI stuff in case the law changes here eg they start requiring emissions testing as part of the annual MOT but really I've never had a single issue since I converted it. Given the increasing amount of ethanol in the fuel here I do turn off the fuel supply as I near home and then let the float bowl run dry so that the carb doesn't get bunged up if the bike is unused for a while. I'm not saying that the EFI is bad per se and the majority of owners happily run around with standard exhausts and inlet with no issues from the EFI but my C5 never ran particularly well with it. Nor am I a Luddite - generally I prefer EFI. I've remapped my Triumph to suit the free flowing exhaust and intake, using free software that I also use to service it. It now runs really well and fuels superbly from ticker to WOT. The EFI on my later Honda is way more sophisticated and trouble free. For me though, a simple single cylinder bike runs perfectly well on a carb. Just saying...
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #47 on: November 01, 2019, 11:48:22 pm
  With a bit of checking around on the Internet. One might find that prices have come down quite a bit for PC-V's and an  Autotuner AT-200  for the UCE's.   The price difference  NOW , between a full Carb conversion  vs sticking with  EFI and a fuel controller are pretty darn close .  The difference in installation of the two options are probably on par with each  other ...  Some plugs to plug in and wires to attach , and a threaded bung welded on your head pipe with a PC-V and an auto tuner.  Vs cables and hoses and clamps on a carb and etc.   The PC-V and auto -tuner wins hands down IMHO , because it is infinitely more tune-able , more accurate , and easier to tune then a Carb could ever be.  Easy to set up with a lap-top or PC with very basic computer skills.  And once set up.. it will adjust automatically to what ever intake ,or exhaust mod you put on that bike .   There will be no guess work involved and wondering about your plug color at what throttle opening and etc.   It will just adjust your fueling to the air fuel ratio that you want, after a couple/few rides of the bike.    And SO much more should one want to use the other features on the PC-V with more advanced mods.    Tuning with Fuel injection , you are tuning to the actual and exact air fuel ratio in every throttle position and RPM range.    It is sooo easy now , it is like cheating.... 


  An example below of target air fuel ratio's that I have found work well on these bike's.  This is with our 10 % Ethanol fuel that we have here in the States.  93 octane Shell super.   YOUR local fuel may vary.  Try getting this accurate with a Carb .  ;)   

 And BTW, if one DOES adjust their fueling in this manor , like you see in the example.   Be mindful that the stock  EFI system cuts fuel as it's rev limit at around 5500 RPM's.  So if one WERE to tune in fuel ABOVE that 5500 RPM stock rev limit ?... One might go  BEYOND that stock rev limit.   So be careful ;) .    A stock bike with just an intake mod and and exhaust mod should not need to go above the stock limiter anyway  , as your power will likely be falling off before then.      Just because you CAN rev it higher then the stock rev limiter, does not mean you are making anymore power.   It's just a waste and over taxing you motor for no gain.   Cam's , head work, more freer flowing exhaust and intake and etc.  may justify a higher rev limit though...   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 12:16:39 am by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.