Author Topic: Finding TDC  (Read 9505 times)

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Bullet Whisperer

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Reply #30 on: October 23, 2016, 09:32:19 am
tooseevee,
 I have mentioned this resistor plug / cap business in numerous threads, both here and elsewhere, over the last few years. I even had a Honda CB500F brought in, in immaculate restored condition, but only running on two cylinders and the odd pop and bang from the other two. The owner brought along a brand new electronic ignition kit for me to fit and asked me to strip the carbs.
 I checked the [brand new] ignition points and whipped the'BR' type plugs out, to check them and found they were on the black side. I spotted it had resistor type plug caps, so I fitted non resistor type plugs. The bike started instantly on all four, with a steady, even tick over and never missed a beat right up to the red line.
 I have since fixed numerous BSA, Triumph and R.E. twins with misfiring issues by junking the 'R' plugs and putting plain ones in - this is at the top of my check list on difficult starting, misfiring engines and so easy to fix.
 As an aside, some people see a big, blue 'R' on the side of a spark plug and mistakenly think 'racing', but it is 'resistor' and they are not welcome in my workshop and our racing Enfields don't use them either.
 B.W.


tooseevee

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Reply #31 on: October 23, 2016, 01:25:12 pm
tooseevee,
 I have mentioned this resistor plug / cap business in numerous threads, both here and elsewhere, over the last few years. I even had a Honda CB500F brought in, in immaculate restored condition, but only running on two cylinders and the odd pop and bang from the other two. The owner brought along a brand new electronic ignition kit for me to fit and asked me to strip the carbs.
 I checked the [brand new] ignition points and whipped the'BR' type plugs out, to check them and found they were on the black side. I spotted it had resistor type plug caps, so I fitted non resistor type plugs. The bike started instantly on all four, with a steady, even tick over and never missed a beat right up to the red line.
 I have since fixed numerous BSA, Triumph and R.E. twins with misfiring issues by junking the 'R' plugs and putting plain ones in - this is at the top of my check list on difficult starting, misfiring engines and so easy to fix.
 As an aside, some people see a big, blue 'R' on the side of a spark plug and mistakenly think 'racing', but it is 'resistor' and they are not welcome in my workshop and our racing Enfields don't use them either.
 B.W.

           I'd just rather not comment much further on this. I'm just going to get a non-resistor cap (and a new coil) and be done with it. If I didn't already have quite a few BR9s (and 8s) on hand, I would just get some B9ES plugs. This is better, I guess, because now I don't trust the cap or the wire or even the coil. 

           I just don't want to hear some day down the road "Well, you picked the wrong plug. You should have known better". I didn't pick it out of the air. The BR9ES has ALWAYS been the recommended plug for this bike both in the original paper catalog and then online so that's the one I've been using. Never thought about it 'til now and now I don't even trust the factory coil.   

            This machine has been an incredible learning experience. And I'm not done yet  :) :) :o ??? 8) ::) :-X And I swear I will win unless I end up in a nursing home first  :) Luckily it's still my left leg that's the worse of the two.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 01:40:35 pm by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #32 on: November 03, 2016, 05:44:33 pm
       Well, I'm back again whether you people who are sick and tired of this old man and his '08 Acehead AVL like it or not  :) :) ;) Like a bad penny or another government "program".

        I've had the Pertronix coil and new HT wire here for a week or so now and have been thinking out the wires and the location and what kind of clamp to buy or whether to hide it (like the OEM one) under the tank.

         (A) I don't wanna hide it. I want to see it; (B) I don't like the forward mount on the downtube idea using the horn socket. Looks stupid + the wires from the TCI become even longer. 

          I want it behind the engine somewhere where I can see it which also gives me very short wires from the TCI.

          The TCI tells the coil what to do through a Brown wire (from the KILL switch though a fuse) and a Red/White wire (straight from the TCI).

           Under "normal" circumstances where the kill switch grounds the points the Brown would be Negative (Kill switch grounds the points to the frame, killing the spark, killing the engine).

           But that's not the case here since the Brown wire is fused (and it being a Royal Enfield), the Brown must be 12V Pos. and the "kill switch" simply "unplugs" the coil's 12V Pos..   

            What say the experts here? I treat wires like water pipes so wadoowinoe?  ??? :) Which wire goes to which coil terminal?

             And what possible future problem would I introduce by tapping the new coil wire into the Brown wire beFORE the fuse? (I would have to unwrap a lot and the wires are like spider web). I guess I'd better do it because after all it IS a 12V POS wire.

             What things would make that Brown wire fuse blow? Would any short anywhere in the ignition system blow that fuse through the Kill switch?

              Yes, I do know the wires. I've had every one of them unwrapped, kissed and hugged and then rewrapped with cloth harness tape.

             
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #33 on: November 07, 2016, 01:14:43 am
     I'm surprised that a lot of our electronics and electrical gurus didn't comment on my last. Oh, well. I just fell back on my vast knowledge of electricity as water and the wires as pipes (that make sparks).

      So wadda youse 'tink?  ???   

 
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Superchuck

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Reply #34 on: November 07, 2016, 02:32:26 pm
Tooseevee,

In my exploration for my current breakdown I realized that the brown wire which runs 'from' the TCI to the ignition coil doesn't actually do that.  My understanding is that the brown wire runs from the killswitch, and splits at a Y to power both the TCI and the coil.  At least that's what it does on my already-suspect wiring diagram.  I haven't unwrapped all the wiring (yet).

I believe the TCI's leg of the brown wire is fused, but the leg of the Y that connects to the coil is not fused.  Could this be because the TCI is also connected to the pulser coil, and that might be the surge risk??  I have no practical knowledge on this subject, but figured I'd try and offer what little help I could.  Hopefully I haven't further muddied the waters.... it sounds like you have a more intimate understanding of your wiring harness than I, so feel free to disregard.   :o

Chuck


tooseevee

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Reply #35 on: November 07, 2016, 04:17:39 pm
Tooseevee,
In my exploration for my current breakdown I realized that the brown wire which runs 'from' the TCI to the ignition coil doesn't actually do that.  My understanding is that the brown wire runs from the killswitch, and splits at a Y to power both the TCI and the coil.  At least that's what it does on my already-suspect wiring diagram.  I haven't unwrapped all the wiring (yet).

I believe the TCI's leg of the brown wire is fused, but the leg of the Y that connects to the coil is not fused.  Could this be because the TCI is also connected to the pulser coil, and that might be the surge risk??  I have no practical knowledge on this subject, but figured I'd try and offer what little help I could.  Hopefully I haven't further muddied the waters.... it sounds like you have a more intimate understanding of your wiring harness than I, so feel free to disregard.   :o

Chuck

                Yes. The TCI gets its 12V+ from the Ignition Switch through the Kill Switch through its own fuse. The Coil gets its 12V+ direct from the other leg of the "Y" with no fuse (that matters here).

                  The Red/White wire is a direct connection between the Coil and the TCI.

                  My gut tells me that the Brown goes to Positive on the Pertronix Coil and the Red/White goes to the Negative and that's the way I've wired it. My new jumpers come right off from very close to the TCI and I've made them Red and Black as the wires to a Coil should be. The fuse functions the same as before. We'll see later if any smoke comes out.

                   For all I know this thing is wired to blow if you change the coil. Like some of the cars now that will punish you harshly if you Dare change the battery and missed the seminar.

                   There is no Pos or Neg marking on the OEM coil. It's just a shapeless black lump. I've heard some say that the connections to a coil don't matter; that either way is Okay, that's why they're not even marked any more. Quien sabe?

             Oh, no. You haven't muddied at all ;) It helps to verify each others incorrectness once in awhile  ;) ;) An old cowboy mentor once told me "Son, it's about as clear as mud, but it covers the ground". The mud is very thick here in 2016.

             
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:30:17 pm by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #36 on: November 09, 2016, 09:56:34 pm
                                The Red/White wire is a direct connection between the Coil and the TCI.

                  My gut tells me that the Brown goes to Positive on the Pertronix Coil and the Red/White goes to the Negative and that's the way I've wired it. My new jumpers come right off from very close to the TCI and I've made them Red and Black as the wires to a Coil should be. The fuse functions the same as before. We'll see later if any smoke comes out.

           Nice big fat blue spark from the Pertronix coil. Of course, that's from an exposed plug, no compression and an engine cranking at about 3,000 with the plug out. No, I didn't start it. I will not hear that noise again this season! Everything carb and intakewise is coming apart and I will find the problem this time or I will give this bike away to someone who can. I've had it with hearing sprag noises both kick and electric just to get this bitch started the first time of the day and then have it run (and start) like a Swiss watch after its first start. See you in the Spring.
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


finbullet

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Reply #37 on: November 10, 2016, 04:59:24 am
           Nice big fat blue spark from the Pertronix coil. Of course, that's from an exposed plug, no compression and an engine cranking at about 3,000 with the plug out. No, I didn't start it. I will not hear that noise again this season! Everything carb and intakewise is coming apart and I will find the problem this time or I will give this bike away to someone who can. I've had it with hearing sprag noises both kick and electric just to get this bitch started the first time of the day and then have it run (and start) like a Swiss watch after its first start. See you in the Spring.

Why don't you just start it? I think you have just fixed the problem with the better spark :)

But, IF it still does backfire when cold, you should check the ignition timing. ( according to hitchcock they have found as much as 7 deg too much advance in a totally standard ignition in an avl engine because of the manufactoring toleranses. If this is the case in your bike, you should use those offset keys to retard the ignition a few degrees)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 08:14:56 am by finbullet »


Superchuck

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Reply #38 on: November 10, 2016, 11:49:32 am
Agreed!   We're waiting pensively for the verdict. 

Best case scenario, you enter the winter with a personal win versus this cold start issue.   Worst case scenario you have a few months to ponder on another solution.

Again I'm a novice,  but is it realistic to consider a hotter spark plug?  I know the b8 and b9 plugs are what's recommended, but what is the harm in a hotter plug? (besides a higher chance of pinging when hot)?  My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out.  It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?


tooseevee

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Reply #39 on: November 10, 2016, 01:25:14 pm
Why don't you just start it? I think you have just fixed the problem with the better spark :)

But, IF it still does backfire when cold, you should check the ignition timing. ( according to hitchcock they have found as much as 7 deg too much advance in a totally standard ignition in an avl engine because of the manufactoring toleranses. If this is the case in your bike, you should use those offset keys to retard the ignition a few degrees)

           No, I'm not starting it again. The whole intake side is coming off and apart. I will boil the carb in carburetor cleaner if I have to. It's going to be as clean as a piece being rechromed and sealed like the space station against micro intake leaks.

            It's been so long and so much water under the bridge and tweaking this and turning that that I must set a new absolute baseline again and start from there. I'll then wait til the air warms up or if I feel like it and feel I'm ready, I'll run my heater in the garage for a morning near the engine and then start it. I've got to have a new baseline like I did when I got this bike sight unseen from the lawyers of an out-of-business dealer in 2010, never sold, dry, sitting in a back room for two years, no miles, no gas, no battery, flat tires, all the bulbs burnt out, CMW Title and a bill of sale.   

           I'm not leaning toward a timing problem very much, but you may be right. It runs so well on the road and starts if you breathe on it after that first start and warmup of the day. 
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Superchuck

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Reply #40 on: November 10, 2016, 01:55:55 pm
Well fingers crossed, sounds like you have a good approach! 

Cheers,
Chuck


tooseevee

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Reply #41 on: November 10, 2016, 05:18:58 pm
Agreed!   We're waiting pensively for the verdict. 

Best case scenario, you enter the winter with a personal win versus this cold start issue.   Worst case scenario you have a few months to ponder on another solution.

Again I'm a novice,  but is it realistic to consider a hotter spark plug?  I know the b8 and b9 plugs are what's recommended, but what is the harm in a hotter plug? (besides a higher chance of pinging when hot)?  My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out.  It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?

             I've already done the 8 and the 9 switcheroo many months ago at Ace's suggestion. Didn't seem to make a lot of difference from what I could detect from how it started or idled or ran down the road with the seat of my pants on the seat. So I don't know. No change in reading the two plugs; they looked the same more or less.

           No, I've never tried a 7, just 8 and 9.

               I personally never want to hear that sprag noise. It hurts my bRAYn. I NEVER get it when I kill the engine because I have ALways used the comp release. The engine should start and run and not die with that horrible clank during the FIRST sparked revolution and that's what I'm going to find this time or the bike is going away. I think there is still some tiny thing wrong in the intake somewhere (before the valve). I do not think it's a spark or valve timing problem. 

            The only problem is I should have waited until AFter to install the Pertronix.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 05:57:30 pm by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #42 on: November 10, 2016, 06:25:43 pm
Agreed!   We're waiting pensively for the verdict. 

 My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out.  It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?

          Oh, it's definitely not pinging  :) >:(

           Yes, it might be timing, but I'm not ready to screw with the timing on what, to me, is a fixed electronic ignition system. The damn thing should deliver at least 2 or 3 sparks on compression before the second or third arrives too soon and drives the frigging engine Backwards! I just don't know. If it's delivering the first 3 or 4 compression sparks that much TOO early, that's an impending nightmare to me. I think once I start fucking with what should be a functioning fixed system that I am totally in the dark about modifying, I am doomed. I almost wish it had points.

         I still think there is something wicked in the delivery and/or mixture of fuel for the first few important seconds at that very touchy initial rollon position of the throttle.  I can also see your questioning of timing. It also fits in this story because it IS a too early spark that is what makes the poor beast scream in dying, backward slamming agony.   

           And it never does it warm. The timing doesn't change with warm (to speak of).  Also remember this is a 9.8 comp engine with "huge"  ;) valves and a totally different shaped comb chamber. So who knows? ??? :)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 06:34:47 pm by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Superchuck

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Reply #43 on: November 10, 2016, 06:42:33 pm
Yes, you've got yourself a proper conundrum!

I only kickstart, but any starting issues I have are generally fuel related.  The 'water' separates from the gasoline, and sinks to the bottom of the tank.  Sometimes my bike starts no problem, but if it has been sitting for a few weeks I generally have to open the petcock and drain fuel out through the carb until it 'smells like gas'... then it fires up first kick.

Those rare 'incomplete starts' do give me that winding, grinding sprag sound when it fails to fire up.  In my case I figure it is related to incomplete combustion (due to fuel separation). 

It sounds like the root of your problem may lie elsewhere, but it can't hurt to drain the little bit of water out of your gas as a precautionary measure.

Best of luck!


tooseevee

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Reply #44 on: November 10, 2016, 07:39:07 pm
Yes, you've got yourself a proper conundrum!

I only kickstart, but any starting issues I have are generally fuel related.  The 'water' separates from the gasoline, and sinks to the bottom of the tank.  Sometimes my bike starts no problem, but if it has been sitting for a few weeks I generally have to open the petcock and drain fuel out through the carb until it 'smells like gas'... then it fires up first kick.

Those rare 'incomplete starts' do give me that winding, grinding sprag sound when it fails to fire up.  In my case I figure it is related to incomplete combustion (due to fuel separation). 

It sounds like the root of your problem may lie elsewhere, but it can't hurt to drain the little bit of water out of your gas as a precautionary measure.

Best of luck!

             Yes, and a quandary, too.

              I love that ++ "til it smells like gas".

               Yes, that's why I think mine is more a fuel problem than an actual timing (like your 'fuel separation') problem.

                I dood it already. I drained the tank and carb totally quite a few weeks ago (it's in the thread somewhere). I put 3 gallons of E10 in it. No MMO. All I added was the bare minimum amount of Ethanol Fighter Treatment Stuff. No change. No improvement. No difference.

                 Back to Blowin' (leaves) In The Wind..... ??? :) ::)

                 

'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades