Author Topic: Finding TDC  (Read 9504 times)

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tooseevee

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Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 08:19:03 pm
                   Second thing: You've got me all confuzalated now with this resistor thing. The HT wire, coil and plug cap are stock to this '08 AVL and I've never used anything but BPR9ES (except 8s for while) in it since new and no other plug has ever been recommended here that I know of (I've been on here since '09 or '10 I think). Now I'm second guessing something ELSE again...



               I hope you all realized I meant BR9ES. I don't know where that P came from. The dark depths of my miiiinnd ...
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 08:23:41 pm
If its the original AVL metal encased plastic plug cap it'll have an inbuilt resistor.

                          OK then. So now let's talk about what Finnbullet said. Should I, or should I not, be using a resistor plug with a resistor cap? ??? ???
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


portisheadric

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Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 11:46:12 pm
Have to agree completely. You only need 5kOhms of suppression in total, either 5 from a suppressed plug cap or 5 from a suppressed plug. Not both.
Your preference, although it certainly appears easier in my experience to find suppressed plugs on the shelf than non suppressed ones.
 You definitely don't want to be using a suppressed HT lead either. If you have one of those fitted junk it immediately.
Currently riding either a quicker than stock '19 Speed Twin or fairly standard 500 Rebel


tooseevee

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Reply #18 on: October 21, 2016, 12:15:26 am
Have to agree completely. You only need 5kOhms of suppression in total, either 5 from a suppressed plug cap or 5 from a suppressed plug. Not both.
Your preference, although it certainly appears easier in my experience to find suppressed plugs on the shelf than non suppressed ones.
 You definitely don't want to be using a suppressed HT lead either. If you have one of those fitted junk it immediately.

           I haven't changed the coil, the HT wire or the plug cap. And I have always been using BR9ES plugs since Day One. Recommended here. No other plug has ever been recommended here by anyone for an AVL. This goes back to Dec. 2009 when I got this brand new '08 AVL and replaced the Bosch that was in it by the recommendation of many here on the forum. It's also the plug sold by Kevin at CMW for this bike. That's where I got my first ones in Nov. 2010.

             Do you see why I'm curious now? This is a rip in the fabric of the universe  ??? ::) ;) Migod, what have I done? :o :o

               
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:34:22 am by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


portisheadric

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Reply #19 on: October 21, 2016, 10:50:15 am
It's okay I've ripped it the other way by using the same NGK plug for almost 15,000 miles in my B5.

I intend to check it later today when I do an oil change. I may refit it I may not. It's been totally problem free, never been cleaned and only been out of the bike once at 5,500 miles for this photo opportunity.  I may fit a long lasting Iridium plug just to see how long it will last,but I don't think I'd actually benefit from one.
 

The fatter the spark the less chance a plug has of fouling in less than optimum running/starting conditions. Some bikes will benefit, some bikes won't, older style electrics and engine designs more so than newer ones.

Removing an unnecessary resistor that might fail at some point and fitting a quality plug cap is a very cheap upgrade to a better ignition circuit. I've been stuck at the side of the road on a soaking wet night with a metal encased plug cap more times than I wish to remember before realising that having a metal encased plug cap is not always a good thing. I've been throwing them away for some time now.   

EDIT:-  put a file to the centre electrode, gapped it and decided to put it back in the bike. I'll change it when it's done 20,000.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 06:32:15 pm by portisheadric »
Currently riding either a quicker than stock '19 Speed Twin or fairly standard 500 Rebel


tooseevee

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Reply #20 on: October 21, 2016, 02:52:41 pm
It's okay I've ripped it the other way by using the same NGK plug for almost 15,000 miles in my B5.

I intend to check it later today when I do an oil change. I may refit it I may not. It's been totally problem free, never been cleaned and only been out of the bike once at 5,500 miles for this photo opportunity.  I may fit a long lasting Iridium plug just to see how long it will last,but I don't think I'd actually benefit from one.

The fatter the spark the less chance a plug has of fouling in less than optimum running/starting conditions. Some bikes will benefit, some bikes won't, older style electrics and engine designs more so than newer ones.

Removing an unnecessary resistor that might fail at some point and fitting a quality plug cap is a very cheap upgrade to a better ignition circuit. I've been stuck at the side of the road on a soaking wet night with a metal encased plug cap more times than I wish to remember before realising that having a metal encased plug cap is not always a good thing. I've been throwing them away for some time now.

            That's a good looking plug; one of the +s of a properly tuned EFI.

             I've never really liked that cap either, but not enough to change it. Maybe I'll find a good looking old style black rubber NR plug cap and a Pertronix round coil (what I see in my head when I think "coil"). I could leave the stock coil in place and mount the round coil on the downtube with a screamin' yellow zonkers yellow HT wire. Ohlord  - stop me..:-[ :-[ ::)

          Is there anything about the Electronic Ignition in an AVL that sez "Don't fuck with the stock Resistor plug cap or I will not run"?

          My old question still hangs in the air: Why has a resistor plug (BR9ES) been recommended for ever for an engine with a resistor cap if there's something wrong about doing that?

           And does it really matter? From what I'm hearing here now and what I'm reading other places, yes, it matters. How much? Who knows? I'm reading one or the other, not both. For me, simplicity matters. I'm not hearing from the heavy hitters here yet. 

             
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Adrian II

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Reply #21 on: October 21, 2016, 06:30:22 pm
Until the heavy hitters show up, my two pence worth. My Electra-X had an NGK resistor cap fitted quite early on in place of the metal thing, which was too reminiscent of the one I had on a Honda single years ago, and which had to go as it didn't like rain. This was with a non-resistor plug, with an ordinary B9ES or B8ES most of the time. Going to a non-resistor plug cap with your resistor plug will be ok, maybe treat your bike to some nice new copper core HT lead?

A.
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finbullet

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Reply #22 on: October 21, 2016, 06:50:37 pm
I don't know why they have recommended a resistor plug with resistor cap, could be a precaution if someone had changed the plug cap to resistorless version.(I think the electronic ignition needs that 5 kohms to prevent the radio interference from the ht lead to mess up the electronics.)

The resistor plug may work just fine with the resistor cap and original coil in an engine with standard compression, but when you lift the compression the ignition system needs more voltage and energy to produce a good spark. So it might be that when you have those resistors (5 kohm + 5 kohm + x ohms from ht lead) the standard coil can't give a high enough voltage to produce a good spark.

My friend had a moped ones that had a bad coil on it. It had a spark when we tested it, but it was a weak one, it was PITA to get the engine running. We tried to kick start it and we tried to push start it, and finally we did get it running. but when the bike warmed up, it started at the first kick. So a lesson learned, it might work just fine with a weaker spark when it is all warmed up.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 06:59:01 pm by finbullet »


tooseevee

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Reply #23 on: October 21, 2016, 08:32:55 pm
Going to a non-resistor plug cap with your resistor plug will be ok, maybe treat your bike to some nice new copper core HT lead?

A.

            Yes :)  Yes  :) Yes  :) And a proper round coil I can see.

             And I'm going to beat this other problem, too. "Ve haf vays, you know, to deal vis ziss".
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


tooseevee

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Reply #24 on: October 21, 2016, 08:48:20 pm
I don't know why they have recommended a resistor plug with resistor cap, could be a precaution if someone had changed the plug cap to resistorless version.(I think the electronic ignition needs that 5 kohms to prevent the radio interference from the ht lead to mess up the electronics.)

The resistor plug may work just fine with the resistor cap and original coil in an engine with standard compression, but when you lift the compression the ignition system needs more voltage and energy to produce a good spark. So it might be that when you have those resistors (5 kohm + 5 kohm + x ohms from ht lead) the standard coil can't give a high enough voltage to produce a good spark.

My friend had a moped ones that had a bad coil on it. It had a spark when we tested it, but it was a weak one, it was PITA to get the engine running. We tried to kick start it and we tried to push start it, and finally we did get it running. but when the bike warmed up, it started at the first kick. So a lesson learned, it might work just fine with a weaker spark when it is all warmed up.

              You're selling me more and more on a Pertronix coil and a new HT wire and cap. That way I can use all these BR9s I have. I never did like a coil I couldn't see.

               And I WILL solve this other problem, also. I'll boil this damn TM32* in hydroflouric acid if I have to. As long as I can Walk, I will NOT have a motorcycle I can't kick start!!   :) :) :) ;D

               * I know it's a good carb. There's something I haven't fixed yet or got right yet, that's all.
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Michael Marsceill

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Reply #25 on: October 21, 2016, 09:28:31 pm
Not sure if this is relevant in your case, but I was having Hot start issues with my AVL Bullet. Stock except for Goldstar exhaust and stock carb upjet. Did all the usual carb cleaning and and electrical tests. Finally did a resistance check on the stock coil. Because I didn't want to remove the tank, I checked at the plug end of the coil wire. It read 5K more than the spec for the coil. To me that indicates a resistor plug wire. I changed to a B9es plug and the hot start issue went away. It was as available as the BR9.


Adrian II

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Reply #26 on: October 22, 2016, 02:49:43 am
Just checked nfield gear, you can either have red NGK resistor plug caps or the flashing variety, resistor or otherwise not specified!

No lack of the short black NGK non-resistor caps on that well-known auction web site however... (just the thing if you also want to use an Iridium plug at some stage).

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


tooseevee

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Reply #27 on: October 22, 2016, 12:42:12 pm
Just checked nfield gear, you can either have red NGK resistor plug caps or the flashing variety, resistor or otherwise not specified!

A.

            That's not the point here, Adrian. I can "have" any kind of cap I want. I realize that. What I DO have is the stock cap that came on the engine from the factory.

             The point is that from day one it looks like the stock cap on AVLs is a resistor type and from day one BR9ES is the recommended plug. That seems to be incorrect now?? That's my only point.

              I personally never gave it a second thought before it came up here just by accident in the general discussion about my tricky starting issues. I've just kept using the plug recommended here and everywhere else, including NFieldGear, since the bike was new.

              I'm going to just get a non-resistor cap and HT wire and Prtrnx coil and keep on using the BR9ES plugs I already have and be done with thinking about it any more. 
'08 Black AVL Classic.ACEhead 9.8:1/manifold/canister. TM32/Open short bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades


Adrian II

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Reply #28 on: October 22, 2016, 06:14:55 pm
My point was simply that our as hosts don't seem to list a non-resistor plug cap, you will have to buy one from another source... Sounds like you're on it, though.

A.

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DanB

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Reply #29 on: October 22, 2016, 07:01:13 pm
Quote
The point is that from day one it looks like the stock cap on AVLs is a resistor type and from day one BR9ES is the recommended plug. That seems to be incorrect now?? That's my only point.

Ya know, I never even thought about questioning the use of the BR plug. Glad u found this 2CV. Since I'm still in pieces, think I'll be looking for a new cap and ht lead.
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra