[AzCal Retred]

Any way to remote mount the fuel pump and use a 5 micron inline filter ahead of the pump? Could you do it with a "cover pan"/ cap  that mimicked the tank bolt layout?

[richard211]

If you can start the bike with an alternator, you will have more than enough power to operate the ECU. If you have enough power for an electronic ignition, you have enough power to run an ECU. ECUs will run down to 9V. When you pretend to start a wreck in India by roll start, so be it.

It is much simpler to operate an ECU than a carburator. In India most of the carb conversions are done due to crappy tanks that rust inside just by looking into it. A carb conversion is the indian way to "solve" the problem.

 The ECU may work at 9 Volts, but what about the fuel pump, the injector, ignition coil and the heater for the oxygen sensor?  On the Euro 4 model for example where the headlight stay on the whole time when the ignition is in the ON position with a low battery how are you going to kick start the engine if the battery is at 9 volts?

 When I do the carburettor conversion I change the main wiring harness too and the RH handle bar switch too, so the headlight can be switched off. It's really simple to roll start/ bump start a carburettor UCE motorcycle.

 On this forum there are a lot of posts where people have shared a lot of issues where fuel pump outlet nozzles break off, imagine if you were in the middle of nowhere and that happens, one cannot even ride the motorcycle. Installing a new fuel pump is not going to fix the issue, its going to happen again. What happens when a fuel injector gets stuck in the open position and hydrolock's the engine? What about when the fuel pump wears out and dies? Or the pressurised rubber fuel hose that fail due to excessive heat cycles since it's so close to the cylinder head, that it ends up being a fire hazard. You haven't had to deal with these issues. The permanent fix is the carburettor conversion which is literally plug and play. The brand new UCE 500 carburettor costs $65.

 There are aftermarket fuel tanks available here that dont have the coating and dont rust as much as the factory ones, that too for under $70 (painted) .
 
 

 
 
 
 

 

[gizzo]

I have 2 models of the RE thunderbird one being and EFI (BS3 emissions) and Carburetor (AVL BS3 emissions). The UCD / CV carburetor that RE used on the UCE models is a really good upgrade over the VM mikuni carburetor. Its a one kick and the engine just starts. The simplicity is what I like the most don't have to worry about a low battery, fuel pump or injectors getting clogged up or relays that don't work among a long list of issues.

 

The CV carb sounds like the smart option to me, too. CV's aren't very sexy but they're simple, easy to work on and they work well.

[axman88]

There is a simple way of doing the carburettor conversion and making it look OEM. There was an Indian model UCE 500 (BS3 / Euro 3) that was sold with a carburettor, you could use the parts from that model to do the conversion and the main wiring harness from a Thunderbird 350 (BS3) to make the instrument cluster work. It's pretty much a plug and play conversion and when using the 500cc TCI unit and the carburettor model alternator rotor, you can delete the entire EFI system.

This way seems much more sensible, and I calculate a decent net profit, if one was to sell off their EFI parts as spares on Ebay.  I've been interested in accumulating the correct parts to make this conversion, but having a difficult time identifying and sourcing the specific components I'd need to convert my 2012 NA export C5.

Doesn't the stator also need to be changed so as to provide the pickup for ignition timing?  Would you know the stator part number for this conversion?   Would you know the part number for the rotor?   The TCI?  The harness I can manage.

Could you post or message the wiring diagram from the India market machine?

Is there any way to adapt these parts from a 350 engine?  Those seem much easier to find and the pictures look the same to my eye.  Which dimensions are different?

[Adrian II]

AFAIK the Indian 350 UCE with carbs used a 29mm carburetor, same size the factory previously fitted to the 500 AVL/Electra-X/A500 Machismo!

A.

[richard211]

This way seems much more sensible, and I calculate a decent net profit, if one was to sell off their EFI parts as spares on Ebay.  I've been interested in accumulating the correct parts to make this conversion, but having a difficult time identifying and sourcing the specific components I'd need to convert my 2012 NA export C5.

Doesn't the stator also need to be changed so as to provide the pickup for ignition timing?  Would you know the stator part number for this conversion?   Would you know the part number for the rotor?   The TCI?  The harness I can manage.

Could you post or message the wiring diagram from the India market machine?

Is there any way to adapt these parts from a 350 engine?  Those seem much easier to find and the pictures look the same to my eye.  Which dimensions are different?

 Here are the RE parts list I use for the 500 EFI to Carburetor conversions

570889/B -VB51 UCD33 carb
570888/A -VB51 TCI Unit multi curve (some EFI model already may have this installed)
582601/A -VB51 TPS add on lead (harness to connect the carburetor TPS to TCI unit)
570896/A -VB51 Accelerator cable (Throttle Cable)
570886/B -VB51 Carburetor manifold 570886/B (connects carburetor to cylinder head)
592237/A -Rotor assembly (This replaces the EFI rotor and is from the Carburetor Classic 350 UCE model has only 1 trigger tooth to help the TCI identify TDC, looks somewhat similar to the rotor from the earlier AVL engines. You should be able to reuse existing EFI stator. The combined rotor and stator assembly part number is 570866/A).
888311 -Wiring harness kit (from the Classic 350 carburetor model)
RAC00156/A  -Ignition coil main (may not be required if the ignition coil connectors of the EFI model are the same)
147096/A -Auxillary ignition coil  (may not be required if the ignition coil connectors of the EFI model are the same)
594002/A -Cover fuel tap (Pentagon shaped plate that replaces fuel pump assembly for a fuel tap to be fitted)
584668/A -VB51 fuel tap assembly  (UCE 500cc fuel tap)
573140/A -NR61 air filter pipe outlet (Rubber connector to connect carburetor to air filter box)
592173/C -Ammeter  (Ammeter from Classic 350)
560195/C -RH switch (Right Hand Handle bar switch carb model, allows the headlight to be switched on and off)

 There are a few different ways of doing the wiring, you could also use parts from the 500cc AVL Electra X like the wiring harness, TCI, ignition coil and ammeter. The Electra X TCI can only fire only 1 spark plug. There is also a dual spark output ignition coil available too (591837/A used on some EFI models).

 People have tried the 350 TCI unit and that causes the ignition timing to be advanced, its better to stick to a 500cc TCI unit. Again there are many different ways of doing this conversion.

[Taurim]

As for the closed loop tuning with a narrow band oxygen sensor, that's only going to happen when the air fuel ratio is around 14.7:1

A narrow band lambda sensor is more or less an a switch which says too rich or too lean to the ECU around 1:14.7
But it's not precisely on/off :



O2 Optimiser provided with Dynojet PC V Euro 4 kit uses the shape of the curve to say on/off to the ECU around 1:13.6 so the ECU injects a bit more gas when in closed loop where the PC V can't adjust the injection time. That's the reason why with a Euro 4 535, you can't remove the stock lambda sensor.



I tried on my 535 (no stock sensor, only wide band sensor an autotune + PC V) but the it was not working correctly at all below 80% throttle.
I had to ask HM for help about that and they explained to me the specifics of the E4 ECU, why I have to keep the stock lambda sensor and why HM's E4 PCV map look weird in the closed loop area.



Quoting Dan from HM :

"With the Euro 4 bike, the Autotune unit will only be able to control the 80% column, 100% column and high rpm range (it's much more limited in its effective range compared to other bikes). Below these throttle openings and rpm, the fuelling will be controlled by the 02 optimiser. You should tailor the map to suit this if you are using the Autotune unit so that it does not try and control this area."

[Adrian II]

147096/A -Auxiliary ignition coil  (may not be required if the ignition coil connectors of the EFI model are the same)

 

Would this be because some of the home market UCE Bullets were fitted with twin-plug cylinder heads?

A.

[richard211]

Would this be because some of the home market UCE Bullets were fitted with twin-plug cylinder heads?

A.

Yes that is correct, there are 2 types of the RE 'Twinspark', one had 2 separate ignition coils (TCI unit has 2 separate outputs to control individual ignition coils) and then the other had a single coil with 2 spark outputs.

 If you wanted to have a twin spark plug on the 350 IB or AVL, the blue TCI from the UCE 350 could be used, it also has a TPS input (only has 2 ignition maps a normal and advance map) which could be left unplugged on the carburetor engines, UCE 500 has a brown / maroon TCI with a 3 wire TPS sensor mounted on the carburetor. The UCE main ignition coil is identical to the AVL models, because of how similar the UCE and AVL engines are, one could take the AVL wiring harness and use that to convert the UCE to carburetor. Even the parts like the handlebar switches, stator with the pick up coil, regulator rectifier, lights can all be used from the Electra X.

[Adrian II]

That's if you could find an Electra-X wiring harness in good condition after all this time! 

A.

[axman88]

Here are the RE parts list I use for the 500 EFI to Carburetor conversions

570889/B -VB51 UCD33 carb
570888/A -VB51 TCI Unit multi curve (some EFI model already may have this installed)
582601/A -VB51 TPS add on lead (harness to connect the carburetor TPS to TCI unit)
570896/A -VB51 Accelerator cable (Throttle Cable)
570886/B -VB51 Carburetor manifold 570886/B (connects carburetor to cylinder head)
592237/A -Rotor assembly (This replaces the EFI rotor and is from the Carburetor Classic 350 UCE model has only 1 trigger tooth to help the TCI identify TDC, looks somewhat similar to the rotor from the earlier AVL engines. You should be able to reuse existing EFI stator. The combined rotor and stator assembly part number is 570866/A).
888311 -Wiring harness kit (from the Classic 350 carburetor model)
RAC00156/A  -Ignition coil main (may not be required if the ignition coil connectors of the EFI model are the same)
147096/A -Auxillary ignition coil  (may not be required if the ignition coil connectors of the EFI model are the same)
594002/A -Cover fuel tap (Pentagon shaped plate that replaces fuel pump assembly for a fuel tap to be fitted)
584668/A -VB51 fuel tap assembly  (UCE 500cc fuel tap)
573140/A -NR61 air filter pipe outlet (Rubber connector to connect carburetor to air filter box)
592173/C -Ammeter  (Ammeter from Classic 350)
560195/C -RH switch (Right Hand Handle bar switch carb model, allows the headlight to be switched on and off)

 There are a few different ways of doing the wiring, you could also use parts from the 500cc AVL Electra X like the wiring harness, TCI, ignition coil and ammeter. The Electra X TCI can only fire only 1 spark plug. There is also a dual spark output ignition coil available too (591837/A used on some EFI models).

 People have tried the 350 TCI unit and that causes the ignition timing to be advanced, its better to stick to a 500cc TCI unit. Again there are many different ways of doing this conversion.

Thanks very much for taking the time to generate this list.  This will be hugely helpful for those who want to make a 100% conversion from EFI to carburetor and not leave a dangling ECU.

[richard211]

That's if you could find an Electra-X wiring harness in good condition after all this time! 

A.

 That's true  . The reason I keep mentioning the Electra X, is because how basic the harness is and it can also be simplified, there is also option using the base model UCE bullet AC/DC stator wiring both phases into a single phase and use any generic Regulator / Rectifier to run all the DC electricals and charge the battery. Get an AC CDI unit, connect the 2 power input wires of the CDI at the connector where the Regulator Rectifier plugs into the ''Single Phase'' output of the alternator and that would allow the engine to start with out a battery, out of the remaining 3 wires, 2 of them would wire into the pickup coil of the alternator stator and the last wire is the ground feed to kill the ignition.

[richard211]

A narrow band lambda sensor is more or less an a switch which says too rich or too lean to the ECU around 1:14.7
But it's not precisely on/off :



O2 Optimiser provided with Dynojet PC V Euro 4 kit uses the shape of the curve to say on/off to the ECU around 1:13.6 so the ECU injects a bit more gas when in closed loop where the PC V can't adjust the injection time. That's the reason why with a Euro 4 535, you can't remove the stock lambda sensor.



I tried on my 535 (no stock sensor, only wide band sensor an autotune + PC V) but the it was not working correctly at all below 80% throttle.
I had to ask HM for help about that and they explained to me the specifics of the E4 ECU, why I have to keep the stock lambda sensor and why HM's E4 PCV map look weird in the closed loop area.



Quoting Dan from HM :

"With the Euro 4 bike, the Autotune unit will only be able to control the 80% column, 100% column and high rpm range (it's much more limited in its effective range compared to other bikes). Below these throttle openings and rpm, the fuelling will be controlled by the 02 optimiser. You should tailor the map to suit this if you are using the Autotune unit so that it does not try and control this area."

 That's a very narrow window of adjustments that only happens when the throttle is around the 80% and 100%. Doesn't allow one to be able to maximize the full potential of the Auto tune capability. A standalone Microsquirt ECU would look like a more attractive option, provided if it could read the crank trigger pattern.

[Taurim]

Sooner or later I will go for a programmable ECU 

Probably later as I had a "little problem" with a speed gun pointed at my car by the "Gendarmerie" this Week-end 
I think I will have several months available to reassemble the engine of my 535 before being authorized to ride it 

[Adrian II]

Ooops!    I hope your brush with the law was at least in something impressively sporty.

Does a driving ban also hike your insurance premiums (payments) up big-time?  It does here.

A.