Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
General Discussion => Royal Enfield News => Topic started by: 1forgotit on September 10, 2022, 12:57:01 am
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I would like to think, very likely
Bikers are already adapting Himilyan parts to the 'J' engine to up the capacity. RE must see this as a possibe reliability question and a call for a larger 500, now with the release of
BSA 650 single
Adapting the 'J' engine to 500 cc would seem no major problem nor expense
You can probably add 6 mm stroke with the std flywheels, con rod length ? piston diameter, rework on the cyl head is minor, and extra finnig on the barrel and possibly cyl head, easy and engine management unit is a doddle
HERES HOPING
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Hitchcock's already have a Meteor Big Bore kit in the works, likely a piston & barrel. Maybe early 2023. Meteor stroke is already nearly 90mm.
RE has always just expanded the lineup with a bore job, so it's highly possible a 500 Meteor (the "Singularity"?) is already a done deal. Every media report mentions how the Meteor "feels like a much bigger bike". The 650 is apparently slated to go to 850cc's. That's already been done on the aftermarket to good effect.
The question I have is if the new liquid cooled 450 will supplant the existing air cooled 411 Himalayan motor. Maybe they feel that "Modern is modern" and there's no downside for them in sales to curtail the air cooled motor for an LC version, especially one with way more beans. We'll see; I'm of the opinion that a 370 pound, 40 HP, 6 speed machine in road-worthy "Scram" & dual purpose "Himalayan" variants for a very reasonable price ($5,000 ??) would find a ready market.
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The story circulating at the time the UCE500s were killed off was that the factory could no longer get the old two-valve 500 engine through increasingly tough emissions regulations. You would hope they could now have worked out a way to get a 500 single back in some form on the new platform, at least for the export markets.
A.
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H's came up with a pushrod 4-valve head that allows for a better combustion chamber shape. The 2-valve OHC Himalayan and Meteor both pass. My money's on the OHC motors cheaper production costs were the actual driver.
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I find it odd the RE Indian website shows new UCE 350 Bullets for sale along side the new J motor 350s.
https://www.royalenfield.com/in/en/motorcycles/bullet-models/
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Tradition dies hard, look at HD. India's market is all about the "thump" and fuel efficiency. The 350 UCE is a known quantity and is a "comfortable" choice for the older audience. Younger folks may like the OHC's lower weight and slightly better performance. Their market is very different than ours.
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Don’t forget the lower maintenance costs with the hydraulic values and the optional kick start on the UCE.
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I find it odd the RE Indian website shows new UCE 350 Bullets for sale along side the new J motor 350s.
https://www.royalenfield.com/in/en/motorcycles/bullet-models/
Until the upcoming OHC "J" engined Bullet is released, (and likely for a few months afterwards, until stocks are depleted), I suspect you will continue to see new UCE Bullets for sale.
But, the buzz says the OHC version is not far off:
https://www.carandbike.com/news/upcoming-new-royal-enfield-bullet-350-spotted-on-test-3202353
https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/two-wheelers/newgen-royal-enfield-bullet-350-spotted-fully-undisguised-41657684489353.html
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It would be interesting to see whether RE makes any changes to the engine. The current UCE 350 bullet had been very popular because it had been the cheapest model in the RE lineup and this bullet was not intended for highway use. It had the heavy crankshaft (10.5Kg compared to the 8Kg on the other UCE 350 engines) and also used a 15 T front sprocket. Although the engine seemed stressed at speeds above 70 Kph, the heavier crankshaft did make the engine run much more smoother compared the 8kg crankshaft used on the other 350 UCE models.
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I saw this a few weeks ago. Worth watching. Very interesting.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZCSqXEuypU&t=1186s
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A light piston & bit bigger barrel and you're there, the J-bike stroke is almost 90mm anyway. The Chinese/Benelli "Bullet" is actually just 480cc and pumps out about 30 HP, more than the UCE ever did, so bumping the J-motor shouldn't be rocket surgery for RE. Adding cubes to make a "different model" is what RE has done forever. A counterbalanced 500 Bullet would be a thing of beauty. All the Meteor 350 folks agree that the J-bikes ride like a larger machine.
The lovely 650 twin dressed with Olde Skool Bullet-esq tinware deserves it's own moniker. Shooting Star? Comet? Bolide? ;D ::)
The "rub" becomes the narrow difference in price that'll exist between a new ersatz 30 HP 500cc Bullet and a 45 HP 6 speed Mountebank Bullet (the 2023 Bolide! :o) for maybe only $800 - $1200 more.
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I saw this a few weeks ago. Worth watching. Very interesting.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZCSqXEuypU&t=1186s
Stuart predicts a 500 J bike later this year. I hope he's right on this.
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I would like to think, very likely
Bikers are already adapting Himilyan parts to the 'J' engine to up the capacity. RE must see this as a possibe reliability question and a call for a larger 500, now with the release of
BSA 650 single
Adapting the 'J' engine to 500 cc would seem no major problem nor expense
You can probably add 6 mm stroke with the std flywheels, con rod length ? piston diameter, rework on the cyl head is minor, and extra finnig on the barrel and possibly cyl head, easy and engine management unit is a doddle
HERES HOPING
I doubt it, probably couldn't meet euro5 without liquid cooling. Maybe there will be a version of the new 450 single but it isn't really the right kind of engine for the bike but BSA felt it was ok so you never know.
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Bikes in India are many peoples daily transport, and the only vehicle they can afford to own. That is rare in the west where bikes are more often than not a hobby and lifestyle thing.
That will clearly affect buying decisions and encourage sales of the known reliable old faithful design that can be repaired by the local village mechanic using 2nd hand parts that are abundant everywhere.
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That will clearly affect buying decisions and encourage sales of the known reliable old faithful design that can be repaired by the local village mechanic using 2nd hand parts that are abundant everywhere.
This was a considerable factor for the demise of the 500, in my opinion. It sold VERY poorly in India in its UCE configuration, whereas, when available previously in IC varieties, it sold much better. Never at parity with the 350s, but at least within an order of magnitude.
RE had made the decision to ONLY offer the 500s with EFI, open loop systems for domestic bikes and with an 02 sensor for exports, whereas the 350s had carburetors. This not only burdened the 500 models with considerable more cost, those Kiehin ECUs and the hired expertise to implement them, fuel pumps, Bosch injectors, and fancy newfangled sensors, but it also made them considerably unpopular with the home-spun mechanics that had serviced these machines for generations. There was considerable pushback, the evidence of this still exists in old internet posts.
An unpopular, expensive alternative, with resultant awful sales figures, were the nails in the coffin, much more so than any inability to make the machines compliant with BS-V emissions regulations, in my opinion. The were too fancy for the domestic market, but didn't have enough performance for a high priced western export market. Even the 650s, which incidentally, also sell VERY poorly in India, are considered marginal performers in the West.
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There are 60 years worth of used pre-unit iron Bullets and spares in India. Anyone that wants a 500 or 350 Iron Barrel should have no problem getting one. A traditional carbureted, pushrod actuated OHV, points equipped basic hardware, locally repairable machine is readily available to those that want them.
The Royal Enfield LC450 engine will have the same or better power to weight as the 650 with less bulk. As a modern clean-sheet design it should be fairly maintenance free as well. At an assumed 35-40 HP the new counter-balanced, 4-valve, 6-speed should easily out perform the previous big bore king, the 500 UCE.
The LC450 is slated to power at least 5 iterations. Anyone Indian that wants to own a modern, low maintenance, moderately high performance machine can soon get a domestic example. There's nothing magic about 500cc's, modern tech makes it easy to replicate or exceed yesteryear's performance numbers with a lot less metal.
I posit that if the reliability goes up and the maintenance goes down, i.e. R.E. achieves Japanese levels of appliance-like reliability in the LC450, Indian market acceptance will be fine. R.E.'s been beating on the LC450 for awhile now, there shouldn't be too many "Gotcha's" hidden in it. A lighter, stronger, faster, sportier, better handling and more reliable bike is generally an easy sell.
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Having been to india a few times, younger riders want the style, reliability and thump of the 350 on roads that don't travel fast (and for good reason :)). Young riders don't appreciate the unreliability of the old iron barrel. Not sure they will be willing to pay a premium for a high revving water cooled thumper. Overseas markets are very different. The bread-and-butter market for RE is india.
I personally would like another big 500cc thumper :)
kind regards
Warwick
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Anyone wanting a high-performance, high-revving, modern, 400-cc class motorcycle in India can always buy a KTM 390 Duke. Those bikes have been marketed in India for some time and seem to be well received. I am not sure that the LC450 is going to compete well with that bike.
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As/When/If India has some spare recreational motorcycle cash, performance becomes an issue. Anyone that wants a (traditional) Iron Barrel or UCE can easily find one. Riding a 1970's Desert Sled against a modern 400cc-ish trail bike (XL, DR-Z, XT, KLR, etc.) will peel the scales off your eyes. A 1973 750 Triumph Twin ridden against a 600 Ninja will be a real learning experience.
If you want speed, you need the hardware. If you want off road performance, you need the hardware. The LC450, if it's reasonably light/not a porker, can be detuned to get pretty torquey. A short-stroke 4-valve counterbalanced 450 can spin if need be and be tuned for more peak beans. A 6-speed has enough spread to keep the engine "on the cam" pulling hard everywhere. A 40 HP 370-ish pound road burner would be really fun. A 35 HP 370-ish pound dual purpose bike would definitely be OK, but 340 pounds sounds even better.
Indians know what everyone else is riding. If they can, they'll pick what works best vs. just sticking with what came before. They already have a country full of long stroke heavy flywheel hardware, why would they buy a new one?
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Generally, Indians really don't want or need anymore performance. A 350 classic or bullet is patriotic style! Anything bigger is a waste of fuel. Traffic doesn't move fast enough for anything more powerful. The 350 just makes sense noting most bike are around 100-150cc
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Generally, Indians really don't want or need anymore performance. A 350 classic or bullet is patriotic style! Anything bigger is a waste of fuel. Traffic doesn't move fast enough for anything more powerful. The 350 just makes sense noting most bike are around 100-150cc
And, the average Indian is quite a bit smaller than the average American, 1.66m and 59.6kg vs 1.77m and 86.7kg. https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php
That's just 5'5" and 131 lbs, and women are smaller yet.
I haven't weighed as little as 131 lbs since I was in the 6th grade. Back then, I though a 5 hp mini bike had pretty awesome performance.