Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => 411 & 450 Himalayan & Scram => Topic started by: linearB on July 11, 2019, 08:06:48 pm
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I have a 2019 Himalayan with about 400 and some odd miles on it. At 300 I replaced the filter and oil. I will admit I've been lazy and haven't yanked the tank and adjusted the valves yet.
Right from the get go, this bike seemed a little funny about stalling, but I mostly only noticed it when it was first on and I was trying to accelerate into first, and it was not frequent enough for me to think about too much.
Shortly after the 300 mile change, I got hung up in some mud in my woods, and ultimately had to set the bike at an angle in mud. It did not go over hard, in fact, the engine was still running and I had to shut it off. I had made an attempt to "when in doubt, throttle it out" but it was clear that was not going to be effective so I did not push the engine really hard.
Some friends came over quickly, we lifted the bike out, it fired up fine. I blasted all the mud off with a hose, using tools to knock out any that had caked anywhere, and then cleaned and re-lubed the chain. Everything was fine, and I believe I rode about 60 miles without noticing anything amiss.
Yesterday, I rode 30 miles and twice noticed that I stalled out coming into intersections.
Today, I rode 20 miles, and noticed that I stall out completely any time I completely let off the throttle. It doesn't matter if the clutch is down or not, or if the bike is in gear or neutral -- no throttle, instant stall. If this was a carbed bike, it would be behaving exactly like it needs to have the idle screw turned slightly.
I've been on the phone with Enfield, but my "local" dealer is ~200 miles away. I sent them these pictures and they are hopeful they might be able to talk me through this, their belief is that I've got a vacuum leak somewhere.
here are pictures that I sent them:
https://imgur.com/a/TYPBVvv
Any advice would be greatly appreciated; I can take pictures of whatever easily. I don't have much experience doing this kind of work, so ELI5 applies. If anyone can get me running smoothly again before the dealer straightens me out, I'll send you a pint of home made maple syrup from up here in the mountains :-P
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I'll just start by saying I don't own a Himalayan. I suspect the EVAP canister got filled with fuel when you tipped the bike. This can lead to stalling due to a vacuum building up in the tank. Next time it stalls try opening the fuel cap to release the vacuum. Does it idle fine with the cap off? if so then you've found the issue. Personally though, I'd think about taking the bike in for it's first service and letting the garage sort it out.
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I'll just start by saying I don't own a Himalayan. I suspect the EVAP canister got filled with fuel when you tipped the bike. This can lead to stalling due to a vacuum building up in the tank. Next time it stalls try opening the fuel cap to release the vacuum. Does it idle fine with the cap off? if so then you've found the issue. Personally though, I'd think about taking the bike in for it's first service and letting the garage sort it out.
Failing that their is a idle adjustment screw on top of the throttle body, large brass colour screw, a slight turn anti clockwise will increase the tick over speed.
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Thanks for the information! Some looking at the service manual, and videos, got me out there tracing tubes and stuff, and the bike seems to be running normally again after doing the following:
* disconnecting and reconnecting the electrical plugs in the vicinity of the throttle body
* opening and closing the gas tank
* tracing the gas tank vent line and re-running it to make sure it was free of any kinks
I would like the garage to see the bike soon, but they are a few hour haul for me, and since I'll be going through there in a month anyway I'm going to try to get up to 1200 miles to get to the second service point and get that done.
I'm most suspicious of the third thing; when the bike went down in the mud, I did a real thorough job cleaning it all out with a hose before I re-lubed the chain, and I wasn't aware that the tank vent to atmosphere was dangling there; I "found" it right in the mix of everything I'd blasted clean, so it seems possible I had it pinched or wrapped in the frame.
In any case, after doing all that, I had it running at idle in N, 1 & 2 no problem up on its stand, and then I went and rode a half mile doing all the things that were provoking hard stalls 100% of the time yesterday, and was unable to get it to die. I will go for a longer ride tonight or tomorrow.
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Well, I am still diagnosing this. Since I rerouted the evap hose, problem is not as bad, but still happens. When it does, if I crack the tank and futz with the hose, then it will be fine again for a while.
I guess I need to take the tank off to make sure there's no hidden crimp there (unlikely, I can suck gas-smelling air through it), and then also take the EVAP system on the lower panel under the engine apart and clean it out per some videos I've seen?
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If taking the filler cap off and then putting it back on fixes the problem like you say it does then there is a problem with your filler cap.
It's vent isn't working like it should.
If your filler cap is one of the non-vented kinds like the one on my California version of the G5 and it uses a charcoal canister on it to control the emissions, the canister is plugged up with something.
The only way air can get into the fuel tank to replace the fuel as the engine burns it is thru the cap vent or thru the charcoal canister.
If no air gets into the tank to replace the burned fuel it forms a vacuum in the tank. That vacuum will keep the fuel pump (or gravity drain on a bike with a carburetor) from supplying fuel to the engine.
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One of the first things that I did with my 2011 B5 was to remove the entire charcoal canister system and vent the tank to the atmosphere with a small K&N filter on the end of the vent tube to keep the bugs out of the tank. :)
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After talking to the dealer I've disconnected the charcoal filter at the box and am going to try riding like that for a while.
They also decided to dump 8" of mud at the end of my road and I dumped myself this morning at about 5mph, temporarily pinning my leg and minorly bending one of my bars (not badly). Oy. I don't want to jack around with trying to bend alumninum back so I just ordered a new handlebar assembly for $130. I need to not do that again.
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After talking to the dealer I've disconnected the charcoal filter at the box and am going to try riding like that for a while.
They also decided to dump 8" of mud at the end of my road and I dumped myself this morning at about 5mph, temporarily pinning my leg and minorly bending one of my bars (not badly). Oy. I don't want to jack around with trying to bend alumninum back so I just ordered a new handlebar assembly for $130. I need to not do that again.
Why in the name of all that's mechanical are these Himalayan handlebars $130?
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Why in the name of all that's mechanical are these Himalayan handlebars $130?
Because they can? ::)
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After talking to the dealer I've disconnected the charcoal filter at the box and am going to try riding like that for a while.
They also decided to dump 8" of mud at the end of my road and I dumped myself this morning at about 5mph, temporarily pinning my leg and minorly bending one of my bars (not badly). Oy. I don't want to jack around with trying to bend alumninum back so I just ordered a new handlebar assembly for $130. I need to not do that again.
The charcoal filter is called athe EVAP Canister.
On ebay you can buy all manner of parts direct from India. Handlebars for the Himalayan cost about $40 including shipping. The whole assembly is $80 if you can't use your existing bits. Maybe you should get a spare? Or perhaps hand guards?
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We used to sell alternative handlebars. We either got them made in India to our shape or bought them on the open market here in the US. At that time the only consideration was that they were 7/8". You also ran into the issue of the hole in the RH side which the plastic stud (better word maybe?) fit into. Easy to solve. But is you want OEM I guess it's either $130 here or $40 in India.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that much of what is available in the open market is NOT OEM regardless of how it is advertised or what kind of packaging it come in. Now that RE is selling so many bikes the market for counterfeit parts has exploded. To an Indian customer the difference of one or two rupees makes a difference.
Depending on the part it may not make much difference. Other parts it does. Filters are a good example of something where it does matter.
https://www.google.com/search?q=handlebars+for+motorcycle&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS720US720&oq=handlebars+for+motorcycle&aqs=chrome..69i57.9184j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=handlebars+for+motorcycle&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS720US720&oq=handlebars+for+motorcycle&aqs=chrome..69i57.9184j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
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I am pretty sure that you can plug the hole from the canister to the throttle body and then leave the one from the tank vent open. A filter might be a good idea. As I remember when we got them "smog" certified that was the only difference. The ECU was the same
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All good to know.
With the right hose disconnected from the charcoal canister, I'm stalling less (significantly) -- but I'm still stalling, now always when decelerating with the clutch depressed. It's not the idle screw; I turned the idle up slightly and then slightly more and it makes no difference.
If it's going to stall, it generally happens as soon as I've pulled the clutch all the way in, even in gear and at speed -- I see my red battery light on, I know the engine died and I need to jam start again. This is.... disconcerting, especially as it's happened going around corners in 2nd.
I need to get another ~400 miles on before my 1200 mile service; because the dealer is a ways away, I am trying to do that in the next couple weeks and then get all this looked at at once. Any advice in the meantime would be appreciated; I'm riding this daily, but there's no way I want to put my wife on the back again until I have this straight.
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This is.... disconcerting, especially as it's happened going around corners in 2nd.
It's more than disconcerting.
One of only two times in my life I dropped a harley that's exactly what happened.
I was half into a left turn from a stop sign and the F**king carb coughed. Down we went.
It was a cool morning and it wasn't well warmed up yet.
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after I had a stall that would not immediately come back to life, I stopped riding. The bike is at the dealer now and they are working w/Enfield warranty.
So far they don't see any reason to think my little slip in the mud is related to any of what's going on. They can hear a "tick" in the engine and the compression is low, but as of the last time I talked to them, it was unclear if there was a valve issue or something leading to low compression leading to a "tick", or, more worryingly, something wrong in the block. It doesn't sound like it's going to be an instant process because they have to work with Enfield Corporate as they proceed; on the other hand I'm tied up with work stuff for 2 weeks anyway, so I made it pretty clear they can keep me pretty happy if they have a safe and working bike for me at that point.
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It's always good to get a update on how things are coming along, I have heard of one instance of a exhaust valver sticking on these engines. Hope all goes well.
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if they tell me the warranty repair involves cracking the block open and messing around I am going to push hard for a new block, I don't want a basically refurb'd block on a bike w/800 miles on it.
We'll see.
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well, they're replacing my f'ing cylinder head. low pressure at intake, they say
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Seems to me like they are doing the right thing, you will probably find bike rides much better once complete.
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Okay, some updates -- this was a little disturbing, but hats off to the dealer for how they are handling it.
I got the bike back, new cylinder head assembly, $0. I rode 30 miles up into the mountains at 25-50mph with no issues. The next day, I went to a doctor's appointment. I topped off my gas, and then headed home a different way that involves a faster road.
After ~5 miles at 50-60 in 5th, the bike straight died. Battery light, total power loss, and suddenly I am just coasting in traffic. I'd been riding like I wasn't sure the bike was sound, which probably kept this from being very scary or potentially worse.
The bike would NOT fire back up. After a few minute wait, it did, but would not idle at ALL, died instantly when not throttled -- so I gimped it as close to town as I could before it just totally died, then stashed it in the driveway of a friendly but extremely suspicious woman, and actually hitchhiked back to town, my first time trying to thumb it in ~20 years.
I had a bunch of back and forth with the dealer. Basically, at this point, they are going to have to do MORE invasive stuff to the bike, and I don't want a bike that's been this chopped up at 800 miles. Also, after that last fail, I just can't imagine ever really feeling "safe" on this unit, I feel like there's some deeper problems with it.
The dealer was very understanding of my point of view. If I was trying to get full cash back, it might be a slight battle, but it sounded like they were willing to cash me out at pretty close to that. But, really what I want, is a bike that works, and not to be towing it back and forth all the time. After talking to corporate, the dealership offered to give me a brand new (different) 2019 Himalayan for $0, and also to drive and meet me half way so that it's less of a chore for me.
I think that's a very reasonable offer, so that's what I am doing. For the moment I believe the dealer when he says he's sold a bunch of these, and aside from people dropping them at speed, mine is the first one that's had any weird bullshit around it. So, if I really just got unlucky, then bike #2 should be solid and off I go.
Fingers crossed....
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Good luck with no. 2! 8)
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I am all set to swap this for #2 next Monday. I'm getting white this time (my request); also, the one I had did NOT have ABS -- the one they're giving me does. I'm not sure if I actually want that on mostly dirt, but, it is what it is and I don't ride very fast or crazy.
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(https://i.imgur.com/FOHG0nV.png)
Here we are with #2. Some immediate thoughts:
* Hima #1, right out of the gate, had a tendency to stall in N right after ignition, warming up. I probably should have thought harder about that; this bike so far exhibits no such behavior
* the actual power level in #2 is different and better, which I think is a bigger flag something was out of spec on that other bike. Specifically, there is a small dirt hill that I just climbed in 4th with absolutely no problem; the other bike would refuse to do that and I was often shifting down into 2nd on that hill, not even 3rd.
* I might actually like the ABS. The non ABS model, if you hit the back brake it was essentially insta-lock and on dirt would just start to slide out immediately. The CRCRCRCRCR action of the ABS will take some getting used to, and I am not pushing anything about this bike "to the limit" until I'm +1500 miles on it, but I feel marginally less sketchy about stopping fast on hardpacked dirt roads. Actual offroad may be a different story, but that's also a story that'll likely involve a different bike.
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I don't think it was a "pressure build up". It was a vacuum that was caused by a valve in the fuel tank vent system that wasn't letting in air as the fuel was being used. It might also have been something as simple as a plastic wrapper or something plugging the air inlet for the purge tank/carbon filter.
The fact that Royal Enfield is replacing your motorcycle for such a simple problem is good for you but it sends an alarm to me. If they can't figure out a simple problem like this, what's going to happen when a real problem comes up?
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Clearly the evap system can't handle the pressure build up and the fuel pump fails.
It's not pressure build up. It's sucking against an unrelieved vacuum that's the problem. Simple physics. Simple solution: reestablish a vent to the atmosphere.
Or get rid of the whole thing.
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I don't think it was a "pressure build up". It was a vacuum that was caused by a valve in the fuel tank vent system that wasn't letting in air as the fuel was being used. It might also have been something as simple as a plastic wrapper or something plugging the air inlet for the purge tank/carbon filter.
The fact that Royal Enfield is replacing your motorcycle for such a simple problem is good for you but it sends an alarm to me. If they can't figure out a simple problem like this, what's going to happen when a real problem comes up?
Woops :-[ Shoulda read this first.
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I complained and RE is sending me a new bike - 400 miles and these problems? No thanks.
This sounds like it could be the makings of a great deal for someone on a very-low-mileage Himi... ;D
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Thanks for the replies gents. Jim - I thought about this a lot last nite after the thing died again on my way home from work. I realized why I had no problems for the first 250 miles. I used my Rebel to go to work and rode the Enfield on the weekend. In other words I rode the Himmi in low to no traffic. Once I began riding to work the problems started. It died on four occasions to date and I can pinpoint the precipitant if not the underlying cause. Here is the scenario: I get stuck in NYC traffic for about 5-10 minutes. Then I get clear of the traffic and accelerate - when I hit third gear the bike bucks (power drop outs). At that point I have about 60-90 seconds before it stalls out completely. It will start in neutral but the instant I put it in gear and release the clutch it stalls. 15-20 minutes later it starts and runs okay. Rerouting the evap return tube didn't fix it although it was indeed kinked and the RE recommended tactic of popping the gas cap open didn't work yesterday either. Anyone have an idea of what the problem might be? TIA.
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Sounds like a fuel pressure issue to me. Did your dealer check the fuel pressure ? Possibly a bad pump ... bad check valve in the pump or a leaky injector...
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Well , good for you that you got a new bike out of the deal . ;) But ... my gawd ? ::) What does that say about the dealer mechanics ?! Sounds like they were clueless ! How about a little trouble shooting here ?! Maybe even going to the trouble of hooking up a gauge maybe ? Geeeezz.... It may have just been crap from rotten gas that was laying in that fuel system for god knows how long it sat at the dealership or in storage somewhere...
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I think TAG said he had 400 miles on his bike so I don't think it was from crap in the tank but, you never know without looking.
Now that he said this was a stop and go in heavy traffic situation, the idea of a pressure building up in the fuel tank is a possibility. I know my 2011 G5 has the California sealed tank system on it and if the tank gets hot because of the heat coming off of the engine at long waits at the stoplight, pressure does build up in its fuel tank.
Every time this happens, suddenly I'll hear a sound that sounds just like the bike is letting a big fart.
It doesn't seem to bother the engines running but I guess it's possible that if the pressure valve wasn't releasing the pressure it could over-pressure the fuel injector. I'd think that would just make it run rich but who knows? Maybe there is some sort of shut off built into the injector?
As far as the fart sound goes, I can easily identify with that noise. Kinda like two old farts having fun on a motorcycle, voicing their thoughts on the world around them. ;D 8)
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Jim, I said to the shop owner that it seemed like she was running rich but he countered with "the O2 sensor would pick that up." I dunno. At 61 I just wanna ride! If I can resolve this, I'm good to go. I really love everything else about this bike. Thanks for weighing in Bro.
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When Itchy Boots was riding though the Middle East she didn't seem to have any problem finding someone who could work on her bike and keep it running.
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The shop owners are really good guys and they are just looking out for me. I appreciate that but I have misgivings about having a bike that no local guys can wrench on. It is a bit anxiety provoking. Still I hope all goes well. I'll see you in the streets. Ride safe Brother and thanks again.
If a gauge was hooked up between your fuel pump and your injector... your dealer could tell you if it were in fact getting the correct fuel pressure as he cranks it over and runs it. And also, he could see if the fuel pressure held pressure when the motor was shut off. If he lost pressure right away ... that pressure is either going back into the tank from a faulty check valve in the pump, or through the injector.... which should shut down completely and not leak when it's off. If it doesn't ? Fuel drips or runs into your chamber. Or if your injector is dripping away no matter what your throttle position is ? ... and he thinks that it was running rich. Ummmmm.... Excess fuel in the chamber CAN do that . Crap in the fuel system ... like balls or bit's of varnish from old fuel , can tend to jam up the works and things don't always re-seat so well . A Narrow band 02 sensor would be overwhelmed if excess fuel was pouring into the chamber. And seeing how and where you ride ... in the city there across the river..... your EFI system may not even be getting into Closed loop , where the 02 sensor makes corrections. Because you are constantly on and off the throttle in traffic most of the time. Closed loop systems with a narrow band sensor , usually operate in a fixed and steady throttle position. So with the way you ride, it may not be correcting anything ... much less air and fuel.
And just because new fuel has been added does not mean it is going to clean up that varnish.... if that is what it is. It maybe washing it all into the fuel pump screen and beyond.
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Just shooting in the dark without trouble shooting brother. And I'd just scrap that stupid Evac system.... unless they look for it at inspection in NY ? No such problems over here on the other side of the Arthur kill . I LOVE the Blues !.. WBGO at 2pm everyday. AND beer ! Maybe a little Jamesons even ? ;D Let me know how you make out ! If you get that new bike by Sunday... let me know. Some of us are heading west . Some mountainous, wilderness adventure that 9 fingers has planned deep into the wilds of PA somewhere ? Who cares !? It should be fun.. .
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Hello, new here. Just got a 2020 Himalayan, and I am at 400 miles. Had my first service already but its having the same issue with stalling you had. Did you ever get yours resolved, if so what was it?
Many thanks