Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:20:01 pm

Title: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:20:01 pm
While tightening the bolt of the tank on the fuel pump side my wrench slipped and I snapped the "Cheap plastic " L shaped nozzle"  that goes from under the fuel pump to the rubber hose.  >:(
After some fruitful discussions with my engineering team "Gashousegorilla". I tried several things including soldering the broken piece, plastic welding it, J&B weld, spit and concrete, you name it... Realized from members like "Ducati scottie" that I was dealing with a pressured piece (about 41 psi) of GAS flowing through this Nozzle, and nothing would hold for a long period.
Solution:
 :). Since my pump was screwed, i decided to cut of the tamper proof heads using a dremel, l then took off the Tamper proof stud screws, took off the top plate, pulled out the broken plastic piece of S... and see what I was dealing with.
I quickly realized that there was no way I could fix this issue safely, correctly and professionally by utilizing the broken piece of plastic nozzle.
Attached are a few pictures.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:35:32 pm
My next step was to get a new pump, I called our host at CMW and Tim as usual was very helpful, I had to purchase the fuel pump from a dealer, (cost was $300.00) I got the part number from Tim, and though I live close to San Francisco, I always deal with the best and that's AL from BMW Fresno (150 miles from me) Al had the pump in stock and was smart enough to ask me if I also needed the "O ring" which mine was now about 1 1/2 inches bigger in size due to the immersion in fuel. Since I now knew-the fuel pump was available and an overnight shipment away, I decided to try a few other solutions I might have on hand. So I asked AL to mail me the O ring, which he did and he didn't even charge me for it.
Here are a few pics.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:40:01 pm
I decided to look for the "keihin" fuel pump on eBay, I didn't find the exact one but after a few searches I got a hit on something similar, the pump almost looked identical and more Important the Nozzle looked the same, so I purchased the pump from eBay.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:42:22 pm
I think the following pictures will speak for themselves :)
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:46:15 pm
Getting closer to completion.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 12, 2013, 04:49:31 pm
Did you have a model number for that ebay pump?  Or know what machine it belongs to?

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 04:55:56 pm
Project completed.  :)   ;)   :D
YAAY......
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 12, 2013, 04:59:42 pm
Congrats!

2012 Kawasaki KX450?  I think this may be our pump.

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 05:01:35 pm
Scottie it was a  11 Kawasaki Ninja EX 650 C Keihin Pump Sending Unit A25.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 12, 2013, 05:47:34 pm
  GOOD JOB Bulletman !!  ;)
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 12, 2013, 07:44:29 pm
I wonder if this could replace the broken elbow?

http://www.cv-performance.com/cvp-fuel-max-inlet-elbow/

I'm now on some mad hunt to cobble together some brass and copper to replace that plastic piece of crap.

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 12, 2013, 08:14:20 pm
  Yeah.... I would think something like that Scott. Or... a brass threaded Ell ?   But i don't know how much "Meat" is in that outlet hole to tap.  You know, then adapt a barbed hose fitting on the other end of the ell.  should do the trick.... if the pump body can be tapped.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 12, 2013, 08:48:49 pm
Oh no!  I'm not about to tap that white metal.  I was thinking more along the lines of a drop in replacement for the plastic.  Get something close and you'd just need to solder an ear on to it to bolt it up the same way.  Tapered threads into white metal???  I'm not that crazy!

Interestingly, the KX450 fuel pump looks indentical.  It costs about $30-40 more but it's good to know in case you need a replacement and RE is back ordered.  Also, no replacement palstic elbow available for that one that I can find either.

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 12, 2013, 09:44:00 pm
Oh no!  I'm not about to tap that white metal.  I was thinking more along the lines of a drop in replacement for the plastic.  Get something close and you'd just need to solder an ear on to it to bolt it up the same way.  Tapered threads into white metal???  I'm not that crazy!

Interestingly, the KX450 fuel pump looks indentical.  It costs about $30-40 more but it's good to know in case you need a replacement and RE is back ordered.  Also, no replacement palstic elbow available for that one that I can find either.

Scott

  Not sure about the  kx450,  the flow rate  or what fuel pressure That bike uses. Probably would work ?....  The Ninja 650 runs at 48 psi  and I saw where it was about 225 bucks .  I believe that was for an 09 Ninja.   I would just verify the pressure if you stick one of those in........
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 12, 2013, 10:08:39 pm
Yeah, the base looks the same but I can't tell if it's the same pump and what pressure it runs.  I was more concerned about seeing if the outlet tube was listed as a separate part for that, which it's not as far as I can tell.

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 12, 2013, 10:39:52 pm
Yeah, the base looks the same but I can't tell if it's the same pump and what pressure it runs.  I was more concerned about seeing if the outlet tube was listed as a separate part for that, which it's not as far as I can tell.

Scott
Scott, I checked thoroughly for the plastic elbow everywhere, no where is that part sold separately. That's why I believe "Keihen" put those "Tamper proof screw heads in there" although Now if I new better, they actually came off really easy with a Vice Grip, don't need to cut the head off with a Dremel.  :D
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Arizoni on June 13, 2013, 12:08:21 am
On another post about this same subject I came up with a simple method of reworking the existing broken outlet.
Not being the kind to let ideas sit,  I have come up with the "Ultimate Low Cost Repair".

This uses a 2 1/8 inch (54mm) length of 5/16 inch (7.937mm) brass tubing which is available at most hardware stores in the US.

It envolves drilling a 5/16 inch (7.94mm) hole thru the existing damaged plastic outlet and inserting the tube.  The tube is epoxied in place so I recommend degreasing it and roughing up the area of the tube that will be inside the block.
Do not rough up the exposed area of the tube as it is the sealing surface for the O-ring.

I also recommend applying the epoxy thru the hole where the old broken fuel outlet is (was) to insure a good bond between the block and the new tube.

The size of the tube and the existing hole in the main fuel pump body will create a dynamic joint per AS568-11 which is good for pressures over 500 psi.

It is important to buy a #2-011 O-ring that is made out of Flurocarbon as this is one of the few packing materials that is comparable with 10-20 % gasohol.

Even this material will swill when exposed to gasohol so it is advisable to obtain a new O-ring rather than attempting to use the old one.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 13, 2013, 12:33:41 am
I like that solution because the fuel stays behind the o-ring and doesn't touch the epoxy.  Finding an adhesive to bond plastic to copper or brass is easy, finding one that is also impervious to gasoline and alcohol is near impossible. 

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Arizoni on June 13, 2013, 12:58:19 am
Right you are.

I figure if a person has a hack saw to cut off the old broken outlet and the small .300 diameter end where the O-ring is along with a flat file to smooth off the hack sawed areas all he needs is the tube, the epoxy and the O-ring and a bit of time.

Total parts cost shouldn't be over $6.00.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 13, 2013, 01:04:05 am
Yup, just drill a straight hole and the rest is cake!  I was watching you evolve the solution in the other thread, way too much thinking for a weekday ;)

Scott
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Bulletman on June 13, 2013, 02:17:48 am
Right you are.

I figure if a person has a hack saw to cut off the old broken outlet and the small .300 diameter end where the O-ring is along with a flat file to smooth off the hack sawed areas all he needs is the tube, the epoxy and the O-ring and a bit of time.

Total parts cost shouldn't be over $6.00.
Now Arizoni,
That does sound like a great solution, its been a busy week and as scotty said, lots of thinking..lol. I'm sure this can be worked out very simply...just need the concept to sink in.  :)
Cheers.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Arizoni on June 13, 2013, 03:14:11 am
The most important part of doing this repair is to make sure the 5/16 inch drill remains centered with the hole thru the .420 diameter boss.

Using the existing hole to align the drill is the only way for someone without a lathe to do it.  Because the drill will be cutting plastic it is real easy to force the drill off center so extra care must be taken while the drill is starting in the hole.
Let the hole guide the drill bit.  Do not try to force it or to drill too fast.

If I were doing this I would do it in stages, first using a 3/16 inch bit.  This smaller drill will be much more likely to follow the existing hole in the block than the larger 5/16 drill would.

After drilling with the 3/16 inch drill I would then use the hole it made to guide a 1/4 inch drill and drill thru with that size.

After the 1/4 inch drill was thru the block I would use the 5/16 inch drill to finish the hole.

You will need to clamp the block in a vise or a pair of vise grip pliers because there will be no way possible for a human hand to hold the block while the drilling is being done.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Tri750 on June 13, 2013, 03:38:52 am
So, how common is the broken fuel nipple?
We've only been a dealer since the UCE was approved for Cali, but I've yet to see anyone with a broken fuel nipple until Bulletman accidentally snapped his.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 13, 2013, 03:45:24 am
   Pretty darn clever Arizoni !  So a relief hole will be drilled through the metal retaining plate for the brass tubing.... and the O ring will be compressed by that metal retaining plate...... pretty clever  :)
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 13, 2013, 03:56:57 am
So, how common is the broken fuel nipple?
We've only been a dealer since the UCE was approved for Cali, but I've yet to see anyone with a broken fuel nipple until Bulletman accidentally snapped his.


 At least a few here on the forum it looks like.... I think some break it when attempting to change the fuel line as well.   Also noticed on the Kawasaki forums, a few of those guys were having issues with it.... Similar pump.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Arizoni on June 13, 2013, 04:51:43 am
Yes, the metal retaining plate will have to have some clearance cut in it to clear the new brass tube that is projecting out the bottom but the retaining plate has nothing to do with the O-ring.

The existing fuel outlet has a .420 diameter projection that fits into a hole in the bottom of the pump.
On top of this .420 diameter area is another .300 diameter that sticks out .165.
This .300 diameter area currently fits into a O-ring that slides up inside the pump and provides the sealing.

By removing this .300 diameter boss (on top of the .420 diameter boss) and replacing it with a brass tube we now have a fuel proof path that bypasses the old angular outlet and delivers the fuel out the bottom of the pump.

Like before, the metal plate is just supporting the plastic outlet but now, it will have the brass tube sticking out the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: heloego on June 13, 2013, 05:00:42 am
Elegant solution, arizoni, and the drawing is "lagniappe" (a little extra)!
Saved that one for future reference!

helo
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 13, 2013, 05:11:38 am
 Got ya....  I believe that retaining plate also pushes down on the plastic pub, and Flattens out that O ring on a Flat area machined  down in the hole. So you have a larger hole on top, and a smaller one down inside... and at that point where the two meat inside , is where the O ring sits. Then compressed by the force of the plate.   I'll have to dig my old one out and have a look, but I still think your idea would work......
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Arizoni on June 14, 2013, 05:36:24 am
EDIT

Well, after enlarging the photo of the existing pump outlet I may have jumped the gun.

It does appear the original packing is resting on a shoulder down inside the pump outlet and there is a bit of metal blocking off a clear passage for my tube right under it.

As they say, "back to the drawing board"

This overlooked development doesn't rule out the idea of using a piece of brass tubing to provide a new outlet though.
It would leave the epoxied joint in contact with the fuel though. :(
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Ice on June 14, 2013, 07:06:06 am
EDIT

This overlooked development doesn't rule out the idea of using a piece of brass tubing to provide a new outlet though.
It would leave the epoxied joint in contact with the fuel though. :(

 The JB weld in the accelerator pump in my shovel heads carb is still holding strong after 18 years. The float bowl on my Iron Barrel military is coated inside and out with the stuff too.

 I scuffed the parts with fine sand paper to expose fresh metal, cleaned up with acetone and let the JBW cure before  use.

 I think you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: gashousegorilla on June 14, 2013, 02:27:10 pm
EDIT

Well, after enlarging the photo of the existing pump outlet I may have jumped the gun.

It does appear the original packing is resting on a shoulder down inside the pump outlet and there is a bit of metal blocking off a clear passage for my tube right under it.

As they say, "back to the drawing board"

This overlooked development doesn't rule out the idea of using a piece of brass tubing to provide a new outlet though.
It would leave the epoxied joint in contact with the fuel though. :(


  If I'm understanding your idea correctly ?  I think it would still work...IF you were to open up the inner hole, down inside the larger pump outlet hole.  To give clearance for the brass tubing to go beyond that flat area were the O ring sits. Then the O ring would be compressed by the plastic above as the plate is installed, making a seal around the brass tubing.... I think? You may need a smaller o ring Though ?
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: heloego on June 14, 2013, 03:44:53 pm
Not much "back to the DB" about it Arizoni.
ghg's suggestion is one option. The other would be to mill a step into the tip of your tube above the packing to fit.
ghg's would be the simplest, and the simplest is often the best..
Hook it up, flush out any debris, install the tube, seal the faying surfaces with bead of JB weld or a fuel-resistant sealer, and you're good to go.
 
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Silverback on September 27, 2021, 08:04:07 pm
this seems to be a common issue.  Anyone found a source for valve replacement part?
its ridiculous to pay such a large sum of money for a cheap plastic part.

does Kawaski list this part for purchase?  if so anyone have the part number?  my dealerships around here are pretty much worthless.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: hpwaco on September 27, 2021, 09:51:16 pm
There's a part listed on ebay called "Genuine Royal Enfield GT Continental 535 Quck Fix Adapter" pn 0/11A ($29) that kind of looks like it might be the fuel line disconnect.  Anybody know for sure???
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Haggis on September 28, 2021, 09:18:24 am
GT has quick release connectors like the one you mention.
The pump output spigot may be different than the normal pipe with a clamp.
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Silverback on October 21, 2021, 08:19:45 pm
I havent.been able to source this inlet plastic part.  Anyone come to with a solution that works and have pics with instructions?
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Haggis on October 21, 2021, 11:06:54 pm
heres a pdf of a repair on the euro4
Title: Re: Fuel Pump - How I fixed the broken off Nozzle
Post by: Silverback on October 22, 2021, 05:57:21 am
heres a pdf of a repair on the euro4

that looks like a good option.  unfortunately my pump is just like the one pictured in posts 1 thru 4.

I wish i hadn't tossed the first one i broke so i could try your option.