Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: AussieDave on December 08, 2013, 03:58:42 am
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I must report a big end bearing failure hour shy of 20,000. K . I was riding to New South Wales for a festival , and a knocking sound began eminating from the crank . It sort of catches up on itself- but a very loud knock is apparent with a screwdriver held to the ear . I located by accident a British bike guru in Philip island who has rebuilt several of these and tells me that it is a known fault partially due to crank pin alignment in the pressing process . He has a five ton press and rebuilds the crank . Bummer huh . It's gonna cost me a bit . Thought ya all should know . Cheers .
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Oh man, sorry to hear. Just out of curiosity, did you used to rev the bike high between gears often?
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He also tells me he has rebuilt a couple of gearboxes due to issues with the bearings .
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Not really . I didn't have a habit of bouncing of the limiter . I did take it out to about 130 -135 briefly just before the knock started . Doh !
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This guy tells me that the crank construction is a bit hit and miss coz they just stamp them out with out close attention to pin alignment.
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Ace told us a while back that crank alignment was key to eliminating excess vibration in the old Fireball. Here's hoping you're back on the road soon.
Scott
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There could be a variety of issues at play here, so it would be good to hear what the mechanic says happened to it.
1)There could be an oil starvation problem from some sort of blockage.
2)The big end of the con-rod, which is supposed to be hardened to serve as the outer bearing race, might have not been hardened enough, and eventually wore out.
3) The big end bearing rollers might have had hardness issues too. If not hard enough, they will also wear out.
4) The clearance from race to rollers in the big end bearing assembly may have been set too wide, causing eventual failure. These roller bearings need very tight clearances, that are very precisely set at assembly time.
5) The crankpin itself might have been soft on the surface, causing accelerated wear.
6)The engine may have been assembled with the crank too far out of true, and the resulting vibrations and misalignments may have eventually caused the bearing failures.
7)There may have been some kind of abrasive grit from somewhere that got in the oil and didn't get trapped by the filter, or maybe there was an oil break-down problem from heat or something.
If it is apart for a big end bearing job, you definitely want to put new main bearings in the engine too. Quality ones of known source that are for sure not counterfeits.
The problem with the crank assembly that your mechanic mentioned does seem to have some basis in fact. The varying degrees of "true-ness" of the crank from one Bullet to the next does seem to be evident. These bikes are not inherently bad vibrators. They can be very smooth, if the crank is trued well. So, I hypothesize that if you have a Bullet which is doing a lot of vibrating, and your engine mount bolts and head steady are tight, then you likely have a "less than optimally trued crank", and may expect some future bearing issues at a shorter time than other Bullets might see.
Regarding the big end issues, it has been occasionally seen in the AVL(which shares the same basic crank construction) that some of the con-rod big ends were not hard enough to serve as the bearing race, and they crapped out early. Sometimes the crankpin showed the lack of hardness problem, instead. Sometimes the race-to-roller clearance was not right. This is a known issue with AVL, so it's possible that it might also occasionally be seen in the UCE as a carry-over of the crank production methods.
Another thing that the UCE crank shares with the AVL crank is the method of construction and truing during production. You can only buy the whole crank/rod/bearing assembly as a complete set. They build them that way. I don't want to get into why they build them that way.
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Hope you're back in the saddle soon and without losing an arm and a leg for the repair. ;)
It would be interesting if you compared your experiences with Ace's post here above. Whether it originated in the construction or through pollution of the oil. Was there a picture of the damage?
Good luck.
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Thanks for your commiseration fellas .
Ace What you say is pretty much in accord with what I'm hearing from this Brit bike bloke . He's not my mechanic yet , but the dad of one of my workmates and at age 70 odd still does bikes as a hobby coz its been his life ! A good bloke to know! I have only just got the bike home and it will be a little while before I have the time to pull her apart . One question , apparently there is a roller bearing on the cam side but a plain bronze journal on the drive side , which seems kinda weird to me ?
May consider Hitchcock s crank like roaland
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Sounds like the bike is in good hands Dave..... Let us know.
http://images.royalspares.com/part_manual/Classic_EFI_C5/
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Yeah GHG ! I think so too. Might be able to sneak a few mods in while we're at it ! :)
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The main bearings are roller bearings, with the drive side main bearing being a NU305 roller bearing and the drive side output bearing is a 6305 ball bearing, just like the old Iron Barrel engines use on the drive side.
Apparently the timing side roller might be different than the Iron Barrel, because they don't mention the number for it. I don't see any bronze journal in there on the crank.
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AussieDave
This is one of the new (2009 +) UCE engines isn't it?
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Yes it is mate . A 2010 built g5 with just shy of 20000 k on the clock . He may have been referring to an earlier model - I haven't even Opened the workshop manual
Yet to check what I have to work through .
Thanks for the link Danny . Much appreciated .
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We got all the parts and closed the engine block yesterday. We used locally sourced bearings :
1.TAF 354520 (IKO needle roller bearing)
2. 6305 ZZC3E NS7S 304 (NSK ball bearing)
3. NU 305 EWC3 (NSK cylindrical roller bearing)
Please note that the outside diameter of the inner sleeve of the bearing on the crankshaft is smaller than the factory bearing as this bearing has one extra ball bearing. I unfortunately did not see the imported conrod - neither the existing one as the parts went straight to the engineering shop and all we had to do is assemble the lot. Please do not rely solely on the RE workshop manual - this turned out difficult and inaccurate to follow. We took many reference pictures along the way. Hopefully next weekend we can finalise the engine.
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We finally thought we had the engine together again and than discovered the gearbox somehow is stuck. We did not rebuild this part of the engine and left it as is but something probably moved? This means splitting the crankcases again...?
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We finally thought we had the engine together again and than discovered the gearbox somehow is stuck. We did not rebuild this part of the engine and left it as is but something probably moved? This means splitting the crankcases again...?
Sprag Clutch Failure? ???
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That is what I thought initially - but it is not - with the primary chain removed it is locked on the gearbox side - it does turn over but with great pressure - doesn't look normal....
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Perhaps the gears and shifter mechanism are bound up? Like when if a transmission tries to go into 2 gears at once. Put the bike on the center stand and jerk the rear wheel back and forth while another person kicks on the shifter to try and free it up. If this doesn't work you may need to tear the tranny apart.
Scottie
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Thanks - we will try this. The engine is not in the bike yet and we will have to wait another 3 weeks as the owner is leaving to the states for this period.
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it does turn over but with great pressure - doesn't look normal....
THIS SOUNDS like you are in 4th or 5th gear..... Dumb question, BUT... you did try to shift it into neutral with the shifter peg placed on the shaft?
Before you split the case again, OR put the mill back in the bike.... cause you don't want to do THAT twice, incase you do have to split the case. And you should be able to shift through the gears with the motor on the bench..... I would pull the rightside cover and have a look at the shift assembly and shaft, and make sure everything is engaging properly. Maybe the shaft isn't in the fork or it's bound up, Is the black shift shaft spacer inplace in the right side cover? ..... You could just be in an in between gears, try rocking the front chain drive sprocket back and forth with one hand or using a socket, while trying to shift with the other hand.... If you have the top end back on, remove the spark plug so the Engine will turn over in 4th or 5th gear easier without building compression.
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Thanks - will do so.
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Pulled the top end off today . Found about 2 mm of vertical play in the big end . That familiar tapping sound that scared the crap outta me! Also heaps 7-10 mm horizontal play . I'm gonna drop the motor block out tommorow . GHG you'll be happy to know I took your advice and dropped one of the head nuts down Pushrod shaft!
Here's a pic of my combustion chamber . Tell me it looks to be burning ok?
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Dave,
If you remove the side inspection cover you should be able to retrieve the nut - It happened to me aswell. Regards
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Pulled the top end off today . Found about 2 mm of vertical play in the big end . That familiar tapping sound that scared the crap outta me! Also heaps 7-10 mm horizontal play . I'm gonna drop the motor block out tommorow . GHG you'll be happy to know I took your advice and dropped one of the head nuts down Pushrod shaft!
Here's a pic of my combustion chamber . Tell me it looks to be burning ok?
I warned ya to get a magnate ! He..he...he. ;) The chamber looks to be about what I saw , as far as the carbon build up, when I took the head off the first time..... Not too much flow and swirl going on in the stock chamber. Your exhaust valve looks a bit cooked with all that ash on it.... Mine was black like the rest of the chamber, if I remember correctly. Is that carbon wet or dry Dave? How did your plug look ? Piston crown look the same as the chamber?
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It's a dry black GHG , kinda powdery . The plug is black too, and the piston has a mm odd of carbon build up on it . The thing is , the week before I busted it , it ran really rough kinda detonating and then dying then goin bang again for about 20 minutes . I thought it may have been water in the fuel coz it had been raining really hard the day before and I got caught .... Anyhow I'm thinking now those detonations may have err not helped !! The top end looks good and solid ! I reckon I'll have abetted bike than yours once I put the hitchcocks con rod and bearing in ! You'll have to find a new tune !
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It's a dry black GHG , kinda powdery . The plug is black too, and the piston has a mm odd of carbon build up on it . The thing is , the week before I busted it , it ran really rough kinda detonating and then dying then goin bang again for about 20 minutes . I thought it may have been water in the fuel coz it had been raining really hard the day before and I got caught .... Anyhow I'm thinking now those detonations may have err not helped !! The top end looks good and solid ! I reckon I'll have abetted bike than yours once I put the hitchcocks con rod and bearing in ! You'll have to find a new tune !
LOL !... Yee might Dave, yee might. If ya do a wee bit more then just the rod and bearing ;) My big end is doin' just fine the last time I looked, a few weeks back ::) :P
I was thinking the ash may have been from burning oil, due the the problem with your Big end.... but dry you say? Hmmmmmm..... detonating?...... Hummmmm..... Pinging ? You didn't happen to do a compression test before you pulled the top end, did you ?
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It almost sounds like the carbon was so thick that it started to increase the compression, which in turn started to cause the pinging. The pinging is more than likely what did in your big end.
Scottie
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What does the top of the piston look like? Mine was fairly sooty and caked, but then again, most of my riding is an 11 mile commute. If I rode longer more often it would probably look cleaner.
My exhaust valve wasn't black but was a nice medium gray. It seemed at odds with the black all around it. The rest of the head was black and dry like yours.
I'm thinking that a periodic spray of water mist into the intake while running to steam clean these things might be a good idea. Or do a 'Scooter Bob' tune up: get it warm flog it hard for a few miles now and then.
Scott
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It's a dry black GHG , kinda powdery . The plug is black too, and the piston has a mm odd of carbon build up on it . The thing is , the week before I busted it , it ran really rough kinda detonating and then dying then goin bang again for about 20 minutes .
Dave, if you did not do a compression test or a leak down test before you pulled the top end......And you always should. Before you clean it out, Flip the head over and fill the chamber with gas or trany oil and let it sit for a while, to see if you get leakage around the valves. If you do , you'll see it running down the ports. From what you describe, as far as how the bike WAS running before the big end problem... rough, crummy performance, maybe some rattling in the exhaust ? Your exhaust valve may have been burnt, and leaking. It's worth a look....
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Excellent advice fellas as always! Damn shame it always gets delivered in the middle of the night!
I'm just gonna pick up some circlip pliers then I'll post a pic of the piston top . Thanks GHG I've got the head acting as a lake now . Seems ok!
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Excellent advice fellas as always! Damn shame it always gets delivered in the middle of the night!
I'm just gonna pick up some circlip pliers then I'll post a pic of the piston top . Thanks GHG I've got the head acting as a lake now . Seems ok!
Good deal, you'll see the red of the trany fluid or gas slowly running down if it's leaking. Good sign if it didn't pour right out. And.... You did check the big end with the piston off Dave...... correct? Otherwise you might be feeling play in the small end or pin boss. Just sayin'....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Em0GiLSO70
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G5 piston at 20000 k
Yeah , the play is all in the big end sadly .
The leak test came up ok . On with the fun.
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The pic . Doh!
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Mine looked like that too, maybe not quite that bad. If you're getting pinging I suspect it's from the carbon getting too hot, not from extra compression.
Scott
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It was just the one episode , about a week before the big end went , that it was running rough after heavy rain . After that she seemed her normal self and carried me another 600 k up the highway before trouble. Could water cause that do ye think ?
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Just so ye know , dropping out the motor in the back yard single handed can be done . It even easy . I reckon I might need help to get her back in though!
( I'm pretty happy so far)
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Mine looked like that too, maybe not quite that bad. If you're getting pinging I suspect it's from the carbon getting too hot, not from extra compression.
Scott
+1 . I don't think the compression got THAT high, to cause detonation with that amount of build up. But the glowing hot spots, more likely.
Just so ye know , dropping out the motor in the back yard single handed can be done . It even easy . I reckon I might need help to get her back in though!
( I'm pretty happy so far)
MAN !! ... You don't mess around Dave ! I like it ;)
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go for it Dave...I have said many times in the past...1970s...if you can not wrench dont ride it...back then i even used sunnen hones to fit harley crank and rod bearings...awh the good old days...roller bearings in thousands and ten thousands...taught me a lot on clearences and fittness...a lot of that is gone now but i still learn new things everyday or it is a lost day...rock on Dave!!!!!!!!
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Mine looked like that too, maybe not quite that bad. If you're getting pinging I suspect it's from the carbon getting too hot, not from extra compression.
Scott
That makes sense. Either way detonation is a big ends worst nightmare.
Scottie
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That makes sense. Either way detonation is a big ends worst nightmare.
Scottie
Yeah, be interesting to see what it turns out to be. I have my doubts it's the Con-rod or bearings as the cause. They are tough.... I beat the piss out of mine, with much higher compression then stock and it's fine.... And he has a stock bike, with maybe 130 -140 psi at a static compression reading ? And the bike doesn't rev past 5400 ..... Detonation maybe, coupled with a crank that wasn't trued from the beginning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs1yCpomCKM
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Yeah, be interesting to see what it turns out to be. I have my doubts it's the Con-rod or bearings as the cause. They are tough.... I beat the piss out of mine, with much higher compression then stock and it's fine.... And he has a stock bike, with maybe 130 -140 psi at a static compression reading ? And the bike doesn't rev past 5400 ..... Detonation maybe, coupled with a crank that wasn't trued from the beginning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs1yCpomCKM
I was thinking about this last night. Like Ducati Scotty mentioned, the detonation was likely caused from the carbon build up getting hot. AussieDave mentioned she seemed her normal self and carried me another 600 k up the highway before trouble
. Between that statement and looking at the amount of carbon in the combustion chamber this is what I gather. From what Dave has mentioned, it sounds like it only started to act up after riding for quite some distance. I think what was happening is the carbon build up was so dense that after riding for more than say 30 minutes to an hour, all that carbon actually started absorbing the heat in the combustion chamber before it could leave out the exhaust. After the carbon got hot enough, the entire combustion chamber turned into a "glow plug" and started dieseling the fuel before it even had a chance to ignite properly. This is what could have been causing the detonation. And if this was the case, that violent of a detonation in that 20-30 minute window would definitely cause the big end to fail.
Does this make sense or am I over analyzing stuff again? ???
Scottie
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GHG - interesting vid. I guess I'm surprised that the answer to the crank being a couple thousandths off is to jam it in a vise or hit it with a hammer!
My spark plug is perfectly clean and tan, but I swear there were a few times this fall I heard and felt my bike pinging. For the sake of prevention, any suggestions for inspecting the innards for excess carbon buildup, and remedies in case I find some?
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Pictures sometimes give a false impression from lighting or angle, but I tend to agree with the previous guesses at the cause.
Looking at the picture of the chamber, it appears that the combustion deposits on the plug side of the squish area are about the same color as the exhaust valve. This indicates heat. The exhaust valve is very commonly that light color, because it's the hottest spot in the combustion chamber. If the deposits in the squish area are actually that color, and got that hot, then that is very likely a cause of this kind of trouble.
Looking at the picture of the piston, it seems that there is no clear indication about where the squish area was, and the deposits appeared to be evenly thick all around and almost to the edges, except for the area under the intake valve at the perimeter of the intake side, which seemed to show indications of fuel wash.
Both of these pictures seem to show indications that the "squish area" is not functioning as a squish area, but is apparently just there "for looks" or something. It's not making any squish, or it would look much different in those areas which were providing squish/quench. From those pictures, and the thicknesses of the deposits shown, it looks to me like at least 2mm of deposits on there, which would indicate that the squish zones are beyond the definition of a squish zone, and if they are like the UCE engines that we have looked at, then they have more than .080" of distance from the flat areas of the cylinder head. Interestingly, it is a known phenomenon that when the squish distance is opened up beyond .060", but less than .100", then that INCREASES the likelihood of detonation occurring, instead of decreasing it. This may be what we are seeing here. If you open up the squish beyond the .060" limits, then you should open it wider than .100"-'130" to avoid having potential detonation effects from the danger zone. Either be in the squish parameters, or be far out of them.
Giving the RE engineers the benefit of the doubt, I would have to guess that they had squish set, and the local fuel supply could not tolerate the compression amount which resulted from this, even with the squish, so they backed-off the deck height with a minor change to the barrel height machining, and thus reduced the compression without a re-design of the piston or chamber. Either they didn't know about the danger zone, or it was deemed to be necessary to set the compression height there by the bean counters, and hope for the best.Perhaps in India, this doesn't come up as a problem with low speed running that is prevalent there. However, for export models, particularly in Australia which has become the world leader in killing Bullets, this might not be so good for the riders there.
This is why we will re-set the compression height for the piston for the UCE that we make at Ace, and correctly meet all the other necessary parameters, and this is why I have repeatedly mentioned this subject in previous posts about the UCE and the piston and compression subjects.
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Hey guys , thanks for all your input, advice and encouragement, it makes A world of difference know this excellent and supportive community is here . One of the best things about owning an Enfield!
What happened to my bike and why is probably of concern to us all I reckon , so I'll try to be clearer about my experience leading up to the failure, as my explanation so far has been a bit vague.
My daily commute is about 8 k - not very far , and about 5 days before the incident I was riding to work when the motor began to misfire , firstly at wider throttle openings and then began detonating and dying . The tank was nearly empty, the fuel light had been on for some 40k , and the day before the bike had sat in and been ridden through heavy rain .
The engine began detonating and then dying then firing again then detonating then dying and I was on my way to work and under some pressure to get there so after maybe 3 minute of this behaviour I hit the kill switch and pushed it into a servo and filled her up . She then refused to start . Just the odd bang , then nothing so I checked the plug cable and fuses even though I wasn't convinced they were at fault . After cursing for a about five minutes and fielding irate phone calls from my work and considerable agitation and rocking of the bike to try and displace any water in the fuel system alternated with start attempts the bike fired again and I rode off with the engine misfiring and going bang every 10-15 seconds and not developing full power. By the time I arrived at work the engine was getting smoother and began to feel more like normal. Ten hours later she fired up fine and I rode home with only three or four misfires. The next couple of days she seemed fine, although I only covered 10-15 k just on local run- arounds . Then came the interstate trip. I topped her up early and put about 240k on her at speeds around 100-110kph and then coming down a long hill I tucked in and opened her up , up to about 140 indicated ( prob 135-I calibrated my speedo as best I could I while back)and held her there for a minute or two . Then I returned to normal cruise - there was a cop car ahead I just missed I think!-and after about ten minute as I started up the next hill I heard an odd sound , a new frequency , so I pulled into the next servo and at idle heard the tapping for the first time . Having little other option , I continued to my destination another 200 odd k up the road to the bull riding festival I was workin on, then I brought her home in the production truck. The bike and combustion cycle seemed fine for the first pert of that trip, indeed the combustion cycle seemed fine even after the the bearing went , so I felt the top end and fueling system were fine .
Clearly in retrospect I should have been more careful when she first misfired .
Do guys think that water in the fuel could have played a part in this?
Christmas is here , I've got the case sitting on my kitchen table , but I shan't open her up untill I get back next week , and I shall do my best to share whatever I find .
Happy Christmas everyone. And I hope you and your familys have a healthy and prosperous new year ! Cheers , Dave.
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I just read your post Tom, which as always is very informative! We must have been writing at the same time ! Does this pic of the barrel help? It shows a ring of carbon at the top about 3-4 mm where the supposed swish zone should be I presume .
I'm pretty ignorant of this science but it seems there is a case for changing the compression or deck height. Interested to know what you think .
All the best , Dave.
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I just read your post Tom, which as always is very informative! We must have been writing at the same time ! Does this pic of the barrel help? It shows a ring of carbon at the top about 3-4 mm where the supposed swish zone should be I presume .
I'm pretty ignorant of this science but it seems there is a case for changing the compression or deck height. Interested to know what you think .
All the best , Dave.
Dave,
That photo appears to show that your particular engine has enough distance from the head to be free of the danger zone, so I don't think that was the culprit in this case at the outset.
However, it is possible that the carbon build-up reduced a portion of that area to become within the critical distance to cause problems, or perhaps it was just hot carbon which caused pre-ignition like a glow-plug.
Or it is even possible that you had a bad hardening result in the eye of the big end in the con rod, which has previously been reported on occasion, mostly in India. These are things that need to be determined in the "post mortem" investigation.
I suppose that water could have caused a lean fuel condition on a sporadic basis, or perhaps there was dirt in the injector.
I don't really know the cause of your reported stumbling symptoms prior to bearing failure. You are going to have to investigate that, so that it doesn't happen on the new rebuild.
Just remember, if you intend to do something regarding compression height or deck height, it will change the compression, and may go beyond the flexibility of the ECU to deal with. So, caution is advised before attempting anything like that.
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Ok. Thanks for that . I'll make sure I clean the injector system before I reassemble . I'll check all the oil passages too- I noticed a lot of excess silica or whatever it is they use - hanging around in globs on the inside of some of the sealing surfaces .
Danny , I just watched the clips you posted - very informative, I don't normally do you-tube coz of my low data allowance - but I've upped that now!
The mechanic I mentioned previously tells me that he re-assembles these cranks by heating the webs to 200 degrees c and freezing the pin - then using a heavy duty machine lathe to put them back together -apparently the chuck draws them into alignment , subject to measurement. He's also suggested replacing the bearing with a plain floating sleeve, drilled and channeled for oil flow and is sending me some drawings which I will share for general perusal when I get them . He says this was a popular fix on British bikes after the war when bearings were in short supply and suggests this in conjunction with a new machined and case hardened pin . Reckons they last forever! I'm not sure if it wouldn't be wise with the con rod surface so ill most likely use the hitchcocks part I think.
Anyhow , thanks for the clips
Cheers all Dave
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I was thinking about this last night. Like Ducati Scotty mentioned, the detonation was likely caused from the carbon build up getting hot. AussieDave mentioned . Between that statement and looking at the amount of carbon in the combustion chamber this is what I gather. From what Dave has mentioned, it sounds like it only started to act up after riding for quite some distance. I think what was happening is the carbon build up was so dense that after riding for more than say 30 minutes to an hour, all that carbon actually started absorbing the heat in the combustion chamber before it could leave out the exhaust. After the carbon got hot enough, the entire combustion chamber turned into a "glow plug" and started dieseling the fuel before it even had a chance to ignite properly. This is what could have been causing the detonation. And if this was the case, that violent of a detonation in that 20-30 minute window would definitely cause the big end to fail.
Does this make sense or am I over analyzing stuff again? ???
Scottie
Nope, I don't think your over thinking it Scot. And yup, it makes good sense to me ;) Except i don't think the fuel was dieseling per say... from high compression.... but igniting as the fuel and air mix came in from ,the hot glowing carbon build up. BEFORE it was compressed. And the piston was fighting it's was up the cylinder against these early explosions..... and thrashed the big end.
ALSO , you can see that hot blue ring down in his cylinder where that piston may have been hot seizing. I think that, and the early detonation is why Dave bike was running like crap before.... Like the ignition timing was off with the the early detonation. Water ?... maybe? But how is water getting into the system? Under the lip of the gas cap... while pushing the bike hard in the rain, Maybe? Unless it was already in the tank. And the fuel system is pressurized, so it's not getting in there.
GHG - interesting vid. I guess I'm surprised that the answer to the crank being a couple thousandths off is to jam it in a vise or hit it with a hammer!
My spark plug is perfectly clean and tan, but I swear there were a few times this fall I heard and felt my bike pinging. For the sake of prevention, any suggestions for inspecting the innards for excess carbon buildup, and remedies in case I find some?
What do you think that you would use Matt ? Mad scientists in lab coats, using aerospace tools ?! ;) He is just tweaking it to bring it back in. Hopefully they are using a press with a good jig , and then checked at the factory.
Any suggestions Matt ? Yes, get your issue checked, because it may be a contributing factor. IF it does turn out to be an issue with your lifters. And If the spent fuel can't get out, because your already low lift valve ..... lifts lower. Things can tend to build up in there.
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Ok. Thanks for that . I'll make sure I clean the injector system before I reassemble . I'll check all the oil passages too- I noticed a lot of excess silica or whatever it is they use - hanging around in globs on the inside of some of the sealing surfaces .
Danny , I just watched the clips you posted - very informative, I don't normally do you-tube coz of my low data allowance - but I've upped that now!
The mechanic I mentioned previously tells me that he re-assembles these cranks by heating the webs to 200 degrees c and freezing the pin - then using a heavy duty machine lathe to put them back together -apparently the chuck draws them into alignment , subject to measurement. He's also suggested replacing the bearing with a plain floating sleeve, drilled and channeled for oil flow and is sending me some drawings which I will share for general perusal when I get them . He says this was a popular fix on British bikes after the war when bearings were in short supply and suggests this in conjunction with a new machined and case hardened pin . Reckons they last forever! I'm not sure if it wouldn't be wise with the con rod surface so ill most likely use the hitchcocks part I think.
Anyhow , thanks for the clips
Cheers all Dave
The Iron Barrel engine uses a floating bush of that type your mechanic referenced. There have traditionally have been problems with these bushes because they have a layer of soft bearing material coated on top of the hard bushing, and that soft bearing material has problems with adhesion, and often flakes off, ending the useful life of the bushing. Sometimes this happens very early in the engine's life. We have seen them fail within 4000 miles, but sometimes they last for 50k miles, in other engines. So, it is sort of unpredictable.
We have re-engineered this type of floating bush system for the Iron Barrel, and we make a monolithic bronze floating bush with new bearing clearances for the material used, and there is no coating of soft material on it. The entire bush is one piece, so there is nothing to flake off the surface. We also have an exclusive Carrillo con-rod made specifically for this bushing, with the big-end honed for exactly the clearance we need. It is called the Ace/Carrillo rod for Ace bronze floating bush. When doing this, it is essentially engineering a new bearing, with new clearances established and tested, and is not to be done lightly by unsophisticated builders. We have done the work to ensure success, and offer kits for the Iron Barrel conversions to this type bearing and rod.
We do not currently make this form of bearing and rod for the UCE, but it theoretically could be done.
However, the roller bearing big end is quite fine to use for the intended purpose, and has traditionally been used for higher performance applications and racing. This is what precipitated the use of the roller bearing big end in the AVL and then the UCE engines, instead of the floating bush type big end.
The key issues are that a hardened outer race in the big end, or else the big end must be surface hardened inside the eye, to serve as the outer race. The crankpin must also be surface hardened suitably, to act as the inner race. The race-to-roller clearance must be very tight, and this is critical to the liftetime of the bearing. Rollers have intense line-contact type of pressures which generate a lot of heat, and require good flow of oil for cooling. They do not hold pressure, and operate primarily on flow of oil. If any of these issues are not precisely met during production, then failure of the bearing can happen, either slowly or quickly, depending on the type and severity of the issue.
If all the issues are met precisely, the roller bearing big end is a very good type of system which has good performance and good longevity prospects. It all comes down to how well it is executed in production and assembly.
Regarding cost, it is cheaper to produce and implement the floating bush than the roller bearing system. The use of the roller bearing in the big ends of the AVL and UCE is generally considered to be an upgrade over the Iron Barrel floating bush. However, the floating bush has some advantages of its own, as long as it can be made reliable, without the flaking that traditionally plagued it.
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Nope, I don't think your over thinking it Scot. And yup, it makes good sense to me ;) Except i don't think the fuel was dieseling per say... from high compression.... but igniting as the fuel and air mix came in from ,the hot glowing carbon build up. BEFORE it was compressed. And the piston was fighting it's was up the cylinder against these early explosions..... and thrashed the big end.
ALSO , you can see that hot blue ring down in his cylinder where that piston may have been hot seizing. I think that, and the early detonation is why Dave bike was running like crap before.... Like the ignition timing was off with the the early detonation. Water ?... maybe? But how is water getting into the system? Under the lip of the gas cap... while pushing the bike hard in the rain, Maybe? Unless it was already in the tank. And the fuel system is pressurized, so it's not getting in there.
What do you think that you would use Matt ? Mad scientists in lab coats, using aerospace tools ?! ;) He is just tweaking it to bring it back in. Hopefully they are using a press with a good jig , and then checked at the factory.
Any suggestions Matt ? Yes, get your issue checked, because it may be a contributing factor. IF it does turn out to be an issue with your lifters. And If the spent fuel can't get out, because your already low lift valve ..... lifts lower. Things can tend to build up in there.
This possibility of "mini-seizures" is possible, and there are indications of minor scuffing on the cylinder wall and on the piston.
It all depends on how deep or severe these scuffs are.
If they are very minor, and can't be felt with a fingernail, then it is unlikely that they caused any mini-seizures. However, if they can be felt with a fingernail, then we may be seeing a contributor to the problems.
Normal running of the sort of mileage that this engine has would show some minor surface wear in these major and minor thrust face surfaces, so just the presence of wear there is not necessarily an indication of seizures. The severity of the scuffing must be assessed to draw conclusions.
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Looking at the piston in the bore, again, my engine looked just like that both times I had it open. The piston comes right up to the top if the cylinder. That ring of carbon forms between the piston and the cylinder. It only goes down as far as the top piston ring comes up. It hones right off easily. Like us said before, a periodic spray of water vapor into these engines to stream clean them may be a good idea. I'd blame it in ethanol fuel but I don't think they have that silliness in Oz.
If you want to look into your engine to check, get a bore scope. It's a device you can put in to your spark plug hole and look around. You might be able to see by just bringing it yo TDC and shining a flashlight in in a darkened garage, but I didn't have much luck with that on this engine.
Scott
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Thanks Scott, that's helpful to know . I don't realise that . I thought that carbon ring showed the top of the piston movement . Cheers .
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hey d/scottie..i was a car mechanic here in the states in the 70s when detonation and pinging was prevalent...we would hold the throttle at about 1500 and spray light h2o in the carb...the crap that would come out the pipe was wild...then they put cats on the exaust so that put an end to that ...sometimes you need to just run the pee out of your ride...she wont mind and you will feel better...just a thought 8)
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+1, just rev it a little and spray water in. Probably not recommended with the stock muffler on.
Scott
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Danny , I just watched the clips you posted - very informative, I don't normally do you-tube coz of my low data allowance - but I've upped that now!
The mechanic I mentioned previously tells me that he re-assembles these cranks by heating the webs to 200 degrees c and freezing the pin - then using a heavy duty machine lathe to put them back together -apparently the chuck draws them into alignment , subject to measurement. He's also suggested replacing the bearing with a plain floating sleeve, drilled and channeled for oil flow and is sending me some drawings which I will share for general perusal when I get them . He says this was a popular fix on British bikes after the war when bearings were in short supply and suggests this in conjunction with a new machined and case hardened pin . Reckons they last forever! I'm not sure if it wouldn't be wise with the con rod surface so ill most likely use the hitchcocks part I think.
Anyhow , thanks for the clips
Cheers all Dave
No problem Dave... I would just weigh all your options and costs. And what you feel comfortable with. I personally would not have a problem with using the stock rod and crank/rod assemly.... and checking it before I put it in! But, It certainly seems like you have a sharp mechanic there, and I would listen to him.
hey d/scottie..i was a car mechanic here in the states in the 70s when detonation and pinging was prevalent...we would hold the throttle at about 1500 and spray light h2o in the carb...the crap that would come out the pipe was wild...then they put cats on the exaust so that put an end to that ...sometimes you need to just run the pee out of your ride...she wont mind and you will feel better...just a thought 8)
This is too funny I have to say.... In a good way now ! I was on a job this afternoon, and discussing Dave's situation with an old 70's FORD mechanic. Almost word for word.... what you posted gmmechanic ;)
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For the 2 top ends I removed the carbon build up looked very similar. In both cases we did a compression test and all was fine. In both cases however the bikes used a bit of oil and looking at the design of the oil ring compared to Hitchcock's 535 piston I'm not surprised. Perhaps you should consider also changing the piston. Could the apparent detonating not have something to do with an electrical fault? With heavy rain I encountered a build up of moisture in the connector between the fuel pump and injector causing the bike to behave strange - sputtering an apparent detonating sound and sometimes just stalling...? since I made sure the electrical connections all face down to prevent water accumulating into them.
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You may be on to something there Roaland , I remember ( and failed to mention) seeing the MIL lamp glowing weakly during that episode as I tried to restart the bike . Glowing very weakly it was . Fit about thirty seconds longer than normal . Also when I was dismantling the bike I noticed some sights of oxidisation on that plug .
I will do a code check on the computer module and see if anything shows up.
Look forward to reading your report regarding your experience with the hitchcocks big end too!
Cheers Mate , and all the best for Christmas.
Best regards Dave
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over the past few years a new word for oxidation has come forward...fretting...it is what amounts to a almost miniscule layer of oxidation that will not hurt normal 12 volt circuits but on communication circuits and control circuits it can wreak havoc...to cure it you need to unplug and plug each connector a few times then apply a very slight but thorough coating of dielectric grease...wipe off excess then see how it goes...i have worked on vehickles with more than 25 modules in them and this process has cured many issues ...just trying to help guys... :)
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Gm mechanic that's good stuff right there ! Control circuits must be much more sensitive to impedance ! Great advice thanks . I'm thinking some contact cleaner and maybe some silicone grease after its back together .
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over the past few years a new word for oxidation has come forward...fretting...it is what amounts to a almost miniscule layer of oxidation that will not hurt normal 12 volt circuits but on communication circuits and control circuits it can wreak havoc...
Yep, a hundred years ago the Phone Co. recognized this same problem in their intercity circuits, so, they used a technique called "whetting current" to prevent the problem.
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tnx aussie dave...i have had to work on air bag abs systems where cuircuts are so very sensitive...under no circumstance should any control or communication circuit be spliced or soldered...only a replacement of wire from terminal to terminal be performed...an ecu only knows what it is programmed to know and if any fluctuation in resistance is there there is a chance of failure,albeit so slight that no fault will appear...electricity flows on the outside of a wire so any solder or splice will slow it down even so slightly...also check your wiring for chaffing where only a few strands are trying to carry the full load...hope this is also helpful to you...i have seen too many sensors and ecus replaced for a simple wire repair and now with ecus on bikes that vibrate,well you do the math...merry christmas to all and to all a good night...
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For what it's worth, a sleeve bearing or a floating sleeve bearing needs a LOT of oil. A roller bearing only needs enough oil to keep it damp. Pumping more than a small amount of oil thru a roller bearing only causes heat as the rollers try to squeeze the oil out of the way.
For this reason, I would expect the new UCE engines to be designed to supply just the small quantity of oil needed by the roller bearing plus enough to keep the cylinder walls, the upper wrist pin and the main bearings lubricated with an oil mist.
This sort of oil system would not be suitable for a regular sleeve bearing, let alone a floating sleeve which has twice the oil requirement because both the inner and outer surfaces are slip fits and a constant oil supply must flow thru both sides of the bearing.
Unfortunately, the big end bearing is probably a proprietary design so buying a good German/Swiss/Japanese replacement is not likely. Even so, I say, stick with the roller bearing but be sure to have the outer liner (if it exists) replaced. If a roller shattered, it is probably damaged.
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Curious Dave..... What kind of fuel are you guys using down there ? Is it oxygenated at all?.... Any kind of alcohol blend ? Are your bikes Indian domestic bikes. or are they the same as what is exported to Europe or the US?
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G'day GHG, all the best of to festive season to ya!
We have ethanol blends here , bit as an option at the pump . I don't use it . Our gas is advertised as octane ratings 89 through to 95 . Our local dealer recommends using the higher octane , I'm not sure why given the conversations I've seen on this site .
Our bikes , I believe , are the same as the European model and the us model , pretty much . Closed loop efi , maybe our tail lights are different , but that's about all.
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Your 89-95 roughly matches the US 87-92, different scales. You can use the low grade stuff, it should run just fine on that.
Scott
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G'day GHG, all the best of to festive season to ya!
We have ethanol blends here , bit as an option at the pump . I don't use it . Our gas is advertised as octane ratings 89 through to 95 . Our local dealer recommends using the higher octane , I'm not sure why given the conversations I've seen on this site .
Our bikes , I believe , are the same as the European model and the us model , pretty much . Closed loop efi , maybe our tail lights are different , but that's about all.
Thank you Dave, and all the best to you as well ;)
I was just thinking about EFI mapping, and where those maps are used , EU, US. Aus. etc. And what are the prominent fuels used there ..... with the situation you have, with the heavy carbon build up. The type of fuel used WILL effect mapping to a greater or lesser extent. I find myself wondering , if it is the same mapped UCE for the EU, Aus. & the US ? It could make a difference.....they tend to richen up the map, or increase jet size when using oxygenated fuels, like ethanol blends so the AFR's are not too lean. Sooo, just thinking, if you are running the same map in your bike as a Yank has in his, AND NOT using oxygenated fuel. You maybe running that much richer ?
I would probably listen to your dealer in regard to using premium. Premiums tend to have more detergents in them. Don't know why someone would recommend NOT using premium ? Other then cost? You don't need the added octane.... but the fuels specific gravity effects it's burn rate, not so much octane. Filling up a bike tank is relatively cheap. A couple gallons......
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For what it's worth, a sleeve bearing or a floating sleeve bearing needs a LOT of oil. A roller bearing only needs enough oil to keep it damp. Pumping more than a small amount of oil thru a roller bearing only causes heat as the rollers try to squeeze the oil out of the way.
For this reason, I would expect the new UCE engines to be designed to supply just the small quantity of oil needed by the roller bearing plus enough to keep the cylinder walls, the upper wrist pin and the main bearings lubricated with an oil mist.
This sort of oil system would not be suitable for a regular sleeve bearing, let alone a floating sleeve which has twice the oil requirement because both the inner and outer surfaces are slip fits and a constant oil supply must flow thru both sides of the bearing.
Unfortunately, the big end bearing is probably a proprietary design so buying a good German/Swiss/Japanese replacement is not likely. Even so, I say, stick with the roller bearing but be sure to have the outer liner (if it exists) replaced. If a roller shattered, it is probably damaged.
Thanks for the advice Arizoni! There is a conrod assembly on the hitchcocks site that I am thinkin will do the job . It has a bearing seat inserted in the conrod to eliminate that potential weakness and the crank pin is manufactured to spec. As far as I've been able to ascertain . This is the same item that Roeland has used , although he hasn't reported on if yet . I expect it will do as well if not better than the stock setup . Good point about the lubrication . Curious Dave..... What kind of fuel are you guys using down there ? Is it oxygenated at all?.... Any kind of alcohol blend ? Are your bikes Indian domestic bikes. or are they the same as what is exported to Europe or the US?
I'm still not sure about our fuel being oxygenated or not GHG , I'll try and look into it. I have been using the higher octane mostly , although I haven't been strict about it .
After I swapped to the efi muffler I could smell the exhaust much more , but that's probably just coz of the warm up cycle .
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That is correct it has a bearing seating. Unfortunately we will only continue with the engine rebuild after 15 January. The owner of the bike is in the USA at present.
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I'll try and beat ya to it! :)
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Are you sure? You may want to wait a bit and consider the long stroker crank. I should be out early in the new year.
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Thanks for the advice Arizoni! There is a conrod assembly on the hitchcocks site that I am thinkin will do the job . It has a bearing seat inserted in the conrod to eliminate that potential weakness and the crank pin is manufactured to spec. As far as I've been able to ascertain . This is the same item that Roeland has used , although he hasn't reported on if yet . I expect it will do as well if not better than the stock setup . Good point about the lubrication .
I haven't used that particular item, but we have used similar things for the Iron Barrel models. Hitchcock's has some very good quality crankshafts and related parts. Hopefully, this item will follow suit.
Regarding the long stroke crank, it was never a good idea in the old Bullets. We have done several of them in the old models, and the longer stroke did not help much besides the very low rpm torque, and overall it caused more limitations than it did improvements. I have never recommended a longer stroke on a Bullet, and I'm not going to start recommending it now.
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If you're not pinging, you'll actually get more power from low octane fuels. Could you tell, probably not. And if you don't need premium, it's usually just a waste of money. They do tend to put more detergents and additives in premium, I don't know why either.
Scott
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Just go to your local Performance Bike or Car Shop, buy 5 gallons of VP 110 octane race fuel and put a half gallon in every time you fill up. That'll keep it cleaned out. ;)
Scottie
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Are you sure? You may want to wait a bit and consider the long stroker crank. I should be out early in the new year.
I can't wait wait man ! I gotta get my wheels back .:)
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If you're not pinging, you'll actually get more power from low octane fuels. Could you tell, probably not. And if you don't need premium, it's usually just a waste of money. They do tend to put more detergents and additives in premium, I don't know why either.
Scott
Yes..... If there is no pre-ignition, pinging, knocking or detonation. But, you cant always hear it . And we don't have knock sensors on our bikes. And yes.... the BTU content of both regular and premium is about the same. The difference lye's in when the mix ignites, when you want it to or as soon as it's starts spraying into the chamber. And in a bike where the chamber and piston seem to be prone to carbonizing... and potentially having hot spots. A couple more octane points I think could help , with a more controlled burn and the added benefit of some more detergents. Going from say.... the low of 87 to the high of 92 Octane in this case, with our bikes. I don't think is detrimental. The UCE has a static compression of 8.5.1, which goes up dynamically. Also coupled with some carbon build up...... I think 87 octane may be on the lower end of things.
There are a lot of good reads out there, and certainly more then one opinion on the matter.....
http://www.ktm950.info/how/Orange%20Garage/gasoline/spec_gravity.html
http://racegas.com/article/26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
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GHG, you may be right, might help keep the soot down. Was your engine black when you opened it?
Scott
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GHG, you may be right, might help keep the soot down. Was your engine black when you opened it?
Scott
Yes Scott, when I first opened it up in it's stock form. It sure didn't look too great .. it looked like Hell.
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And you weren't tender with yours. That settles it, this thing gets a steam clean with every oil change from now on.
Scott
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And you weren't tender with yours. That settles it, this thing gets a steam clean with every oil change from now on.
Scott
Probably not a bad idea....Then take it out for a run , to clear out any Carbon flakes that get stuck on the valve seat and valve face ;D You may want to consider not getting the MAP sensor wet, water will get pulled up into that little orifice i believe..... You can try removing the sensor, BUT the bike will run like crap when you do. The combination of the MAP sensor removed and the water, may make it hard to keep the bike running. You may want to consider putting in a small tap, and carb vacuum tap screw as a plug when you are done.. on the intake manifold, down stream of the sensor and behind the injector. And inject the water through there with a syringe..... My tap is for Vacuum testing for the go fast stuff, and I have never tried the water technique. But anyways, like this .........
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Good idea to put a tap there. With a vacuum tap you don't even need to spray. Just attach a hose and put it in a bottle of water. The vacuum will pull water in a bit at a time. Easy-peasy.
Scott
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I like it !...... Let Bernoulli be you friend. Depending on how fast it gets pulled in , or squirted in. You might want to consider using hot water....... You may want to avoid the SHOCK effect of cold water. You know...... like adding cold water to a HOT cast iron steam boiler. Hot water feed is always better...... distilled water, might be a good idea as well.
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Good idea to put a tap there. With a vacuum tap you don't even need to spray. Just attach a hose and put it in a bottle of water. The vacuum will pull water in a bit at a time. Easy-peasy.
Scott
Scott or GHG:
Any special reason for using water and not Seafoam or Marvel Mystery Oil for cleaning piston ?
What do you think of pouring some MMO or Seafoam through the spark plug hole and let it soak for some time and then firing up engine ?
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Scott or GHG:
Any special reason for using water and not Seafoam or Marvel Mystery Oil for cleaning piston ?
What do you think of pouring some MMO or Seafoam through the spark plug hole and let it soak for some time and then firing up engine ?
Back in "the day", we used to squirt some fine mist of ATF into the carburetor of a running engine to clean out the carbon and junk from the MG, Triumph, Jaguar sports cars we worked on. Seemed to work for us back then.
When I decarbonize a head that's off the bike, I turn it upside down and pour the chamber full of ATF and let it soak overnight. Very good for getting carbon off.
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Scott or GHG:
Any special reason for using water and not Seafoam or Marvel Mystery Oil for cleaning piston ?
What do you think of pouring some MMO or Seafoam through the spark plug hole and let it soak for some time and then firing up engine ?
No special reason for me, other then it is something different to try. I think the best way is to just pull the head and clean it..... it's not that hard. I think things like seafoam, MMO, ATF, and etc. Work to some degree, and will get some of it. But it won't get it all out. Still better then nothing... And I think, you would have to let them sit in the for a month before they loosened things up enough to blow it out. I'm a little leery about spaying any heavy oily substance through the throttle body, as it will likely wind up in the map sensor..... It may be a problem or it may not.
Here is a pic of my piston and combustion chamber when I first pulled it. You can see the red of the ATF, or MMO I was using to soak the piston .... Honestly I don't remember which one it was..... And you can see the "Cleared" spots where it came off which aggressive rubbing.
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All those products work to some degree but I've never seen a cleaner cylinder head or piston than the on in my friend's Accord. The mechanic pulled all the plugs looking to see if there was a head gasket leak. They all had normal tan coloring, then the last one looked brand new. "Steam cleans." was all he said and we all cracked up. The inside was similarly pristine when it was opened up.
And water is free. Look up decarbonizing with water on YouTube.
GHG, combustion temps are like 800 to 1500 degrees, right? The temp if the water being anywhere from 40 to 140 F won't matter a lick. It's water droplets going in, and they vaporize quickly. Effectively increases the octane by absorbing heat. I think there were some old supercharged airplane engines that had water injection systems to prevent predestination.
Scott
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I think there were some old supercharged airplane engines that had water injection systems to prevent predestination.
;D
Does this have something to do with filing a flight plan?
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;D
Does this have something to do with filing a flight plan?
I'll bet that "predestination" was inserted by the auto correct software on his phone.
I have to re - read all my phone posts before I hit send, to check if it has changed my words. I have caught some crazy auto correct changes being done on my posts. Sometimes I actually have to use different terms because the auto correct won't let me use some term that I want to use, and keeps changing it to something else.
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The last time I used Auto Correct for anything was in an e-mail to my boss.
Changed his name from "Motzkin" to "Goatskin" and I haven't lived it down yet. :)
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All those products work to some degree but I've never seen a cleaner cylinder head or piston than the on in my friend's Accord. The mechanic pulled all the plugs looking to see if there was a head gasket leak. They all had normal tan coloring, then the last one looked brand new. "Steam cleans." was all he said and we all cracked up. The inside was similarly pristine when it was opened up.
And water is free. Look up decarbonizing with water on YouTube.
GHG, combustion temps are like 800 to 1500 degrees, right? The temp if the water being anywhere from 40 to 140 F won't matter a lick. It's water droplets going in, and they vaporize quickly. Effectively increases the octane by absorbing heat. I think there were some old supercharged airplane engines that had water injection systems to prevent predestination.
Scott
Hold up !? Does that mean....... That the water slowed them down enough so as not to arrive too early :o ;D ::)
Seriously though, the more I think about it the more I like it. And I would think water, especially distilled water, is not going to leave behind any by-products from combustion. Like a chemical or an oil might.... Hell, I might try this Scott. Got a couple old bike's around here to play with....
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Dude! Funniest auto correct I've had in a while. :D
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I don't agree with the reason in the opening of this video but it shoes two things: you can put more water in a running engine than you think and what comes out of the tailpipe when you do.
http://youtu.be/jWqN8pBHJhE
I would be a little more delicate adding water so as not to bend a con rod, but you get the idea.
Scott
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I don't agree with the reason in the opening of this video but it shoes two things: you can put more water in a running engine than you think and what comes out of the tailpipe when you do.
http://youtu.be/jWqN8pBHJhE
I would be a little more delicate adding water so as not to bend a con rod, but you get the idea.
Scott
Yes, steam expands to about 1700 times the volume of water it came from, so be careful with the amounts.
I only squirt in a little from a spray bottle into the carb at idle.
I don't really know what works better, water or ATF. I never really did any kind of back to back comparison.
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I don't need anything to clean up when I spill water in the garage :) And yeah, I'm going to use a pesticide sprayer I last used to remove my popcorn ceilings.
Scott
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+1 on using ATF. That's how I decarbonized all my old small blocks. Neighbors didn't to much care for it tho. ;D
Scottie
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G'day lads, I'm just in the process of cleaning and de-carbing bits of engine while I wait for my magneto puller and valve spring compressor to arrive...120 bucks ouch ... And in my ignorance I'm wondering can I/ should I re- use the piston rings ? They seem to be in good nick.
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Incidentally ,by the time I scraped all that carbon off my piston it came to be about two teaspoons worth - heaped. Like I used to put in my coffee . The piston dish was solid build up. Seems like a lot - that injection of water is lookin like the future....every 5000 k or so I'd reckon
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I would change the rings and hone the barrel.
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I don't agree with the reason in the opening of this video but it shoes two things: you can put more water in a running engine than you think and what comes out of the tailpipe when you do.
http://youtu.be/jWqN8pBHJhE ........
Looks like he is cleaning the inside of the exhaust manifold. before and after pictures with a bore-scope are needed to convince me.
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Dave - You most definitely will want to replace the piston rings and hone the cylinder regardless of their appearance. Besides they are really cheap, don't be skimping on on cheap parts. Didn't you just buy a new crank? ???
Scottie
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Get a 3 piece oil ring. One piece oil rings are for lawn mowers.
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G'day lads, I'm just in the process of cleaning and de-Incidentally ,by the time I scraped all that carbon off my piston it came to be about two teaspoons worth - heaped. Like I used to put in my coffee . The piston dish was solid build up. Seems like a lot - that injection of water is lookin like the future....every 5000 k or so I'd reckon
carbing bits of engine while I wait for my magneto puller and valve spring compressor to arrive...120 bucks ouch ... And in my ignorance I'm wondering can I/ should I re- use the piston rings ? They seem to be in good nick.
Do you think you need new rings Dave !?..... Ah.. YEAH ! ;) ;D At least. And depending on how deep the damage is on the cylinder wall and piston. You may need an overbore and a piston and ring set. I would take in to a local Automotive machine shop and have it looked at. And if you need it, they can fit the new piston for you. Don't go cheap, when you have it all apart now.... and like Scottie said ,your doing all this work.
You don't have to wait for the spring compressor... sears sells the perfect U shaped spring compressor for these bikes BTW.... if you want to get busy cleaning out and checking the head. Just get a deep socket, about the same size as the valve spring cap. Place it on top, and give the socket a sharp wrap with a mallet. The keepers will pop right out, and you can take the valve, spring, cap, washer apart. Don't forget valve seals and to check your valve guides.
You could have forgone the rotor puller. An aluminum wedge works just as well. Just place it behind the rotor, and tap it... move it around.... tap it.... move it around... tap it. And the rotor pops right off.
And i'm thinking, a lot of that crud you cleaned off of the piston crown with the carbon, was oil from your piston slapping around......
Also check the valve train while your at it. the lifters, the lifter bores, the push rods are straight, measure your valve springs and etc. Basically, go through the service manual and check all your specs.
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You can also use a standard 2 or 3 arm puller to get the rotor off. That was the easy part. The most challenging was to spilt the block. We even managed to break a small part on the casing - luckily not critical. I ordered myself now a crankcase splitting tool. If you have to go oversize on the piston than you can go as well for a 535 piston and rings. Unfortunately ACE did not finalise the high compression piston yet.
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Yes you need new rings. Stricly speaking you should get new rings any time the piston comes out. And you should always at least hone the cylinder. As mentioned, if it's damaged or out of true you'll need to get it overbored. If you do that, get the piston first and bring them in together. Then the machinist can bore and hone the cylinder to fit the piston.
First step is to get it to a machine shop and have them take a look to see if it can just be honed and check it for true. That answer determines your next step.
GHG, my valve collets did not pop right out. The ring was embedded in them so hard that I had to put real heavy pressure on my makeshift spring compressor to get it to pop off the collets. Again Dave, a machine shop will have a compressor and shouldn't charge more than a few dollars to take it apart for you to inspect. It takes about two minutes with the right tool. Try the socket first, it often works perfectly.
Scott
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Looks like he is cleaning the inside of the exhaust manifold. before and after pictures with a bore-scope are needed to convince me.
I bet there's a little carbon coming off both. Like I said, my friend's honda that was leaking coolant into one cylinder was the cleanest I've ever seen in a running engine, so I have faith this works. I'd like to get a bore scope in after I do it, or at least a tiny light. I've got an LED on wires I can sneak in there, though I can only see the piston with that, not the head, and I just put a new piston in a short while ago, so I'm sure it's still clean.
Scott
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GHG, my valve collets did not pop right out. The ring was embedded in them so hard that I had to put real heavy pressure on my makeshift spring compressor to get it to pop off the collets. Again Dave, a machine shop will have a compressor and shouldn't charge more than a few dollars to take it apart for you to inspect. It takes about two minutes with the right tool. Try the socket first, it often works perfectly.
Scott
Yeah, they can be a little "sticky" in there. It usually take'a a few decent wraps... one will pop, then the other. And they CAN get a little deformed. Not a bad idea to replace them as well. You can pull them apart, and put them back together in a snap with one of these.......
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-valve-spring-compressor/p-00947627000P
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I thought about that but ended up using a large c clamp and a piece of pipe. With as much pressure as I needed I'm sure I would have bent the lawn mower tool. If I have to do it again, I'll lock it in the tool with just a tiny bit of pressure and hit the top with a little torch so it expands and lets go of the collets.
Scott
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Thanks guys . I cancelled the tools. You just saved me 120 bucks i can spend on the hone . OS piston sounds like the way forward....I wanted to do that anyhow.
Once again , great advice! much indebted ,
Happy New Year All !
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FYI, they have .020 and .040 oversized AVL pistons in stock and super duper aftermarket forged varieties. I'm betting the aftermarkets have the better 3 piece oil rings.
Scott
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And, if no one has mentioned it, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER reuse the cir-clips that hold the wrist (gudgeon) pin in place.
If they are reused, they will most assuredly come loose after the engine is started and proceed to tear up the cylinder wall. :(
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+1. The heat of the engine destroys their temper and they tend to fail quickly and gouge the side of the cylinder if reused.
Scott
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I got an older model of borescope (flat style), but these pistol grip ones work really well, and don't empty your wallet. And, yes, I am a fan of HF. :D
http://www.harborfreight.com/high-resolution-digital-inspection-camera-with-recorder-60695.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html
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FYI, they have .020 and .040 oversized AVL pistons in stock and super duper aftermarket forged varieties. I'm betting the aftermarkets have the better 3 piece oil rings.
Scott
Yes, the forged pistons do have the three piece oil ring and are American made........
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Thanks for the tips guys . It's been 20 years since I pulled an engine down......
After I cleaned up the piston some heavy scoring was really obvious . I think the avl is the way to go .
Not wise to put the old piston back in in that condition I'm thinking .
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Scoring on piston or cylinder? Front, sides, back?
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A bit of scoring on the front and back could be regarded as normal? I had the same on the old piston when I removed it - but the barrel was 100%.
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On a piston that has been run in the engine, there will almost always be some rubbing or scuffing marks on the front and rear thrust surfaces of the skirt. These should be very superficial.
The bore might (or might not) show similar marks. If you can feel the scratches with you fingernail, then they are too deep and need to be rectified by moving to the next larger over bore size piston, and bore/hone the barrel to suit.
I always hone when changing rings. If you put the same used rings back in the same used bore (assuming they are both perfectly fine) then that is okay. They are already mated to each other. New rings need a new crosshatch hone to bed in.
The grit of the hone is important to the type of rings being installed. #320 grit is okay for cast iron rings. #280 is good for ductile iron. #240 grit is good for chrome. 45 degree pattern.
For a stocker, cast iron is okay.
For performance, a ductile iron or steel or chrome top ring would be preferred. Cast iron 2nd ring is still okay. 3 - piece oil ring is preferred in all applications.
Generally, you need to set your own gaps and oil ring expander tension, so be advised of that.
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The bike is up and running again. The crankcase had to be split again as it would not turn over properly. It turned out to be 2 misaligned thrust washers on both sides of the gearbox which resulted in 2 damaged needle bearings. Once replaced all was sorted. The bike covered 200 km so far.
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Good to hear you're back on the road :)
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Good news, Roeland!
So, in a nutshell for us ignoramuses, what's the takeaway from this?
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Good to hear! Glad you got her back on the road again! +1 :D
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Glad to hear it's been sorted, Roeland! ;D
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The takeaway is to check every little bit when putting all together - it can be done at home with some patience.
other items that needed replacement or fixing :
- rear brake pads
- petrol tank welding
- head steady bracket
- new chain
- 1 x original engine mounting bold was too short by about 4 mm
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How did we go here Dave. Back on the road?
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Good news, Roeland!
So, in a nutshell for us ignoramuses, what's the takeaway from this?
The takeaway is to check every little bit when putting all together - it can be done at home with some patience.
other items that needed replacement or fixing :
- rear brake pads
- petrol tank welding
- head steady bracket
- new chain
- 1 x original engine mounting bold was too short by about 4 mm
I guess what I meant was, was anything discovered in the tear-down and rebuild that would shed some light on prevention? Any maintenance or operating procedures that would help?
Or was it unavoidable due to a manufacturing problem , or just plain ol' bad luck?
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not sure.... but probably not avoidable..
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Hi Roeland, glad to hear you got her back on the road.
Sectorsteve , I'm a bit depressed lately, its been a very quiet couple of months for me and I'm really struggling just to pay the rent and stay afloat at the moment . So no progress on my bike I'm sorry to say.
I'm sure my situation will improve soon. All the best.
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Dave,
I'm sorry to hear that. I fully empathize - especially without the wheels - that's not great. There's however a lot of prep work that can be done in the interim until you manage to get new bearings.... good luck