Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: flyingseadog on March 31, 2014, 07:38:35 pm
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FYI: This is a copy of an email I sent to Royal Enfield USA and India regarding a problem I encountered while on a recent road trip. If you suspect your bike is having any fuel delivery or power issues I suggest you check the fuel pump OR at least have the pressure checked and if it is not putting out at least 42psi (294kpa, 2.9bar) you could have a problem.
TO: Royal Enfield
RE: 2009 Royal Enfield Bullet G5 Classic
VIN: ME3FSV2749C500825
I purchased the above referenced bike brand new in 2010 and it has given me much pleasure and ZERO problems, until March 14, 2014 while driving through the back roads of Alabama on a 2-3 day road trip to Winston-Salem, NC. Thumper and I were cruising at 60-65 mph enjoying the scenery and countryside, the engine was purring like a kitten when all of a sudden it lost power as if out of fuel, which it wasn't. Fortunately I still had enough power to make it to a hotel but the engine was coughing and popping all the way and the MIL never illuminated. This seemed pretty odd to me for a bike with only 3080 perfect miles on it but I figured it was something minor and I would check it out in the morning.
The next day I did what little I could to determine the cause of the problem but found nothing obvious such as fuel leaks, bad fuel or water in the tank (I took a fuel sample in a glass bottle). The spark plug, wiring, connections, etc. all looked OK and when I turned the ignition switch on I could hear the fuel pump and see the MIL operating as normal for a few seconds then both shutting off, so I started the engine. It started immediately and idled perfectly for about 60 seconds then began coughing and running rough again as it did before. Being in a rather small country town at this time and without the necessary tools or equipment to troubleshoot any further I decided rather than drive the bike further and possibly causing more damage I would rent a truck and haul the bike the rest of the way to Winston-Salem and work on it there.
When I got to my destination and began troubleshooting the bike, it became pretty clear that it was a fuel delivery problem and NOT an electrical or mechanical issue so I started with the first component in the fuel sequence and drained the fuel from the tank and pulled out the fuel pump. To my great surprise the fuel pump filter was completely red with fine particles of paint debris and there were numerous red paint chips trapped in the bottom of the pump casing (see attached picture). I also decided to remove the low fuel float switch to check it as well and thankfully there was no debris on that side of the tank. I thoroughly cleaned out the fuel tank with solvent, dried it with compressed air through the fill opening and more debris came out the bottom where the fuel pump resides. I then cleaned the pump/filter assembly and was able to remove all the debris from inside the filter itself and reinstalled the pump and the low fuel float switch back into the tank and put in a gallon of fresh fuel. And just to be sure there was no contamination from the tank to the injector I removed the injector as well and did a pressure test of the injector using the fuel pump to check the spray pattern, which appeared normal. After reassembling all the components and installing new fuel hose I started the engine and thankfully it thumped and thumped like I was accustomed to hearing without even a hint of a cough, pop or sneeze and it once again smoothly purrs along at 65-70 mph with power to spare.
I acknowledge the fact that I am not an expert at manufacturing motorcycles but I am a pretty darn good mechanic and I know that gasoline and paint don't play well together and when they are put in close proximity with each other the paint will eventually dissolve. It also happens, coincidentally, that the exterior paint on my gas tank is the same color as the paint debris inside the tank and since I bought this motorcycle brand new it also leads me to believe that this happened during the manufacturing process and not from a third party.
Now, I don't expect and am not asking to be reimbursed for the $445 dollars in rental cost for the truck plus the $100 in extra fuel it costs me to get to my destination (although it would certainly be welcome) but I do expect somebody to investigate this situation as I am pretty sure I don't have the only Royal Enfield with paint chips in my gas tank that will eventually dissolve, clog the fuel filter and cause a loss of power due to insufficient fuel pump pressure, as was my case, or possibly even worse IF the pump were to overheat. God forbid!!! I also researched this problem as best I could and found nothing pertaining to it but now that you know this problem exists, please inform the appropriate department so they can research further to see if anybody else has had a similar issue or there is a problem in the assembly line. I am pretty confident the Royal Enfield community would be very much interested in this story as well.
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From quite some time now RE has stopped painting the tanks from inside like it used to be earlier. Check this link:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorbikes/135505-royal-enfield-thunderbird-500-my-motorcycle-diaries-12.html#179 (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorbikes/135505-royal-enfield-thunderbird-500-my-motorcycle-diaries-12.html#179)
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Thanks for the post, and good luck with some sort of response.
Roverman.
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flyingseadog - I know of a number of people who have had problems with paint flecks chipping off around the fill opening; I saw it myself on a few showroom bikes when I was shopping in 2012. But what I've seen, I shouldn't think would be enough to completely restrict fuel flow.
Are you sure that it was your finish coat color jamming up the filter? I ask because while my current tank doesn't show any signs of paint chipping, two things are readily noticeable:
- While the inside of the tank isn't painted black like the outside, there is some overspray inside which must have gotten in while the tank was being painted - if it disolves, I would expect my filter to clog with black instead of red.
- The inside of my tank, that I can see, is coated with something that looks like a dull brownish-red primer - might that be what was clogging, or at least helping to clog, your pump's filter material?
Curious to see what happens with this.
...and it once again smoothly purrs along at 65-70 mph with power to spare.
Really? Are you sure you're riding a Royal Enfield? If so, I gotta try someone else's, because mine sure can't do that.
And no, the filter isn't clogged! ;)
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Interesting. I noticed paint was peeling badly around the filler the first time I put gas in the bike. It has continued to peel until all of the paint right around the filler is gone. Stuck in the filter I presume. I find this a bit odd, as I have never experienced it with any Japanese bike. Even stranger is the inside of the tank is black, or at least very dark. The color is dark green, so it could appear black inside the tank. Every other bike I've owned had bare metal inside the tank.
Another concern I have, because I have no choice but to use ethanol gas, is what kind of damage is that likely to do to the inside of the tank, and the FI system? Ethanol definitely damages paint a lot faster than gasoline, it also melts plastic and rubber. I'm worried that it will melt that little plastic fitting on the $400 fuel pump. I have had quite a few plastic and rubber parts damaged by ethanol on carbed bikes. Is this just a time bomb waiting to go off? Brand new Japanese bikes are built to be more resistant to moonshine gas, but I doubt that applies to the RE.
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Oh boy.
How times have changed!
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I've been burning the 10% moonshine gas for about 3 years now and the fuel pump and fuel injector are still working fine.
I can't see down into my fuel tank because I got the California model that has the small fuel nozzle restriction in the filler neck.
The ethofuel did attack the fuel level warning float though.
It stopped working a few months after I bought the motorcycle and I never bothered to get it fixed.
One day when I needed to take the fuel tank off to reseal my rocker arm covers I took the float out and was amazed to see it had turned into a gelatinous translucent blob.
I removed the blob to keep it from causing problems, stuck the sending unit back into the fuel tank and haven't worried about it sense.
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I once painted a CARBED bike... he...he..he.. ::) In Lacquer.. stupid I know. After getting it all back together, polishing and admiring my nice work and such. Took it for a ride to the gas station to top up the tank... Pulled the nozzle out of the tank. And a fewww drips fell out onto the not yet fully cured paint .... Boy !! :-X ::) Just like Lacquer thinner..... Did you ever get the urge to bash the gas pump nozzle into the tank ?
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I've done the same thing. Actually lacquer never actually cures. Even after several years, solvents will dissolve it, including gasoline, lacquer thinner, acetone, carb cleaner, and several other things. The Eastwood company makes a clear coat to go over lacquer that is supposed to be gas resistant.
I recently had to replace both coasting enrichener diaphragms on my Vulcan 750. They were $60 apiece. They had turned into rubber mush. I also had the stock plastic gas tanks on 2 Honda dirt bikes develop several large cracks after leaving ethanol gas in them for a few weeks.
Maybe I should remove the float now, to prevent melted plastic from plugging up the filter? I don't really need the light, but I read in the owners manual that you should not run the bike very far with the light on because it can damage the fuel pump? A carb is sounding really good right now.
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........ I don't really need the light, but I read in the owners manual that you should not run the bike very far with the light on because it can damage the fuel pump? A carb is sounding really good right now.
Any time you run ANY vehicle out of fuel with an electronic pump, it is almost guaranteed to fail in the near future. Electronic fuel pumps are designed to always be submerged and never dry, the fuel actually lubricates and cools the pump as the fuel is passing through. When you run the tank empty the pump overheats and seizes/fails.
As far as painting gas tanks, I never paint past where the lip is that the cap screws onto. Otherwise the fuel slowly seeps in through the seam of the paint and just keeps working its way down further and further until all fuel is removed from under the paint, usually requiring repainting to completely eliminate it. If you tape off just below where the cap screws on, the gas will stop at the gasket on the cap and not make its way into the seam of the paint.
Scottie J
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As far as painting gas tanks, I never paint past where the lip is that the cap screws onto. Otherwise the fuel slowly seeps in through the seam of the paint and just keeps working its way down further and further until all fuel is removed from under the paint, usually requiring repainting to completely eliminate it. If you tape off just below where the cap screws on, the gas will stop at the gasket on the cap and not make its way into the seam of the paint.
Scottie J
Yup, +1. I've seen that too, with urethane paint. NONE of it can be under the cap. The fuel or vapor will get between the metal and underside of the paint and just lift it down the fill neck, to the tank it's self. Then start creeping and lifting the paint as it goes along..... Not good.
I've done the same thing. Actually lacquer never actually cures. Even after several years, solvents will dissolve it, including gasoline, lacquer thinner, acetone, carb cleaner, and several other things. The Eastwood company makes a clear coat to go over lacquer that is supposed to be gas resistant.
I recently had to replace both coasting enrichener diaphragms on my Vulcan 750. They were $60 apiece. They had turned into rubber mush. I also had the stock plastic gas tanks on 2 Honda dirt bikes develop several large cracks after leaving ethanol gas in them for a few weeks.
Maybe I should remove the float now, to prevent melted plastic from plugging up the filter? I don't really need the light, but I read in the owners manual that you should not run the bike very far with the light on because it can damage the fuel pump? A carb is sounding really good right now.
The Light can damage the fuel pump !? :o ... That is one I don't remember reading ?
I kid, but I am like you Suitcase.... But the opposite. I have had it.... HAD IT ! With..with Harley CV carbs. That for some mysterious reason after only a couple days sitting, you turn on the petcock to start it, get distracted for a moment, turn around ...AND THREE GALLONS of gas are on the driveway from a stupid rubber tipped fuel valve in the float bowl that has expanded .... or shrunk ?! From the paint thinner it the bowl !
Orrrrr.... the O rings on the cross over tubes on Honda CB's . THEY are a lot of fun... Separating all four every year , not to mention the corroded pot metal float bowls and of course the same rubber tipped fuel valve's.. Run the gas out you might say ? Yes.... but oddly. ALL those rubber O rings, tips, Float bowl gaskets ! Have shrunk down SOOOOOO much, that when you turn the gas back on, it takes them DAYS to fully reseal , IF you are lucky. Rubber float bowl gaskets in particular drive me nuts when you want to do a " simple" jet change. I love waiting a day for them to shrink back down so you can put them back in... AFTER taking them out and they expand like a magicians can of snakes ! Yes, one carb would be easier, but no...
Good luck with the project, it will be interesting and cool to follow. :) ;)
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suitcase
I just write the current odometer reading on the handlebar when I fill the fuel tank using a
Sharpi semi-permanent pen.
Adding 150 to it gives me the next time the motorcycle gets refilled.
With the 70+ mpg (US gal) the RE gets that's about a 2.1 gallons.
The tank holds around 3.8 US gallons so there is still plenty of fuel to cool and lubricate the fuel pump.
If I were you, I wouldn't mess with the fuel level float.
RE has changed the material of that thing several times since 2011 when my bike was made and I haven't heard of anyone complaining lately so maybe they figured out what the new design needs to cope with the moonshinefuel.
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Several companies make additives to combat the effects of ethanol. We use B.G. products in our shop. The blurb from BG claims that it contains corrosion inhibitors, and will create a more stable solution with gasoline and allow any water to pass through the system before it separates and settles to the bottom of the tank. Well , that's the blurb anyway. It comes as a 2 bottle kit, even if it doesn't help, it won't hurt.
Roverman.
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I had my float replaced once under warranty, it just stopped floating. If it fails again for any reason I'm just getting a Sharpie.
Scott
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I haven't been keeping track of it real close, but mine does not appear to be getting 70+ mpg. More like 60 or less. Now that it is broken in, I'm going to fill it up, carry a gallon of gas in my backpack, and ride it till the light comes on and see how many miles it takes.
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I think I've only gotten above 70 mpg on a tank once. But I also ride at or near sea-level almost exclusively. I understand it makes a difference.
Suitcase, has your low fuel light ever come on? Reason I'm asking is, some have had issues with it working - mine worked for the first 3000 miles or so, but then became intermittent and untrustworthy. Before you risk running it dry, maybe you can test the light - perhaps if the tank isn't too full, you can siphon some fuel out and see what happens? When my light was working, it would first come on when braking or facing downhill, which makes sense considering the float's location.
I don't know, just wondering...
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Yes, it has come on a couple of times. Because I was breaking it in, I did not go very far, so there were gas stations nearby, and I filled it up. I'll start keeping better track of the mileage. I have been focused more on getting it properly broken in than anything else. I have heard that the float is prone to ethanol damage, but I'm pretty sure mine is still too new for that.
Is the fuel pump made by Keihin? I saw a post from a while back where someone used a part from a Keihin pump to repair a broken RE pump. Keihin pumps are used on many Japanese bikes, and I have never heard of problems caused by running out of gas before. I have an EFI Yamaha scooter, and it does not have a warning about running it out of gas. Also, all EFI cars use similar pumps, and as a former fleet mechanic, we would get a call every once in a while from someone who had run out of gas. These pumps would fail occasionally, but it was not common, and I never noticed any connection between pump failure and running out of gas. I worked for the same place for 36 years, and never heard this even mentioned, or saw it in any manual. In fact, most car pumps will shut down if the system loses pressure.
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Re. the "run your tank dry and risk your fuel pump" thing - Click and Clack have been telling me that for years, and they wouldn't BS me... would they? :-X
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In my 3 years of selling auto parts, I asked every customer buying a new fuel pump if they had recently run it out of gas. I didn't keep a tally, but I would say 2-3 out of every 5 fuel pumps I sold the customer had run the car out of gas in the last month or so, most times within a week or even a day.
Scottie J
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Is the fuel pump made by Keihin? I saw a post from a while back where someone used a part from a Keihin pump to repair a broken RE pump. Keihin pumps are used on many Japanese bikes, and I have never heard of problems caused by running out of gas before. I have an EFI Yamaha scooter, and it does not have a warning about running it out of gas. Also, all EFI cars use similar pumps, and as a former fleet mechanic, we would get a call every once in a while from someone who had run out of gas. These pumps would fail occasionally, but it was not common, and I never noticed any connection between pump failure and running out of gas. I worked for the same place for 36 years, and never heard this even mentioned, or saw it in any manual. In fact, most car pumps will shut down if the system loses pressure.
Yes it is a Keihin pump. And I have found, with no combustion in the chamber, the pump and the injector shut down.....
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I ran mine down once at about 1500 miles. Of course once it was obvious from the sputtering that I was out if gas I killed it and coasted to the side. No problems since.
Scott
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I ran mine down once at about 1500 miles. Of course once it was obvious from the sputtering that I was out if gas I killed it and coasted to the side. No problems since.
Scott
If you catch it when it starts to sputter and shut it down you will usually be ok as the pump isn't sucking complete air yet. But most people see they ran out of gas and try to drive the car as far they can. That's when the pump usually fails.
Scottie J
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Yeah, I knew what was happening. I was out on a long trip, got to a gas station only to find it was abandoned, and had to make the choice to head back to the last one I saw or forge ahead. I forged ahead and then had to wait an hour for AAA to show up.
But I knew I was likely to run out of gas, so as soon as it sputtered I just pulled over. There was no way I was going to make it up that hill I was trying to climb ;) I'm guessing too that once they run out of fuel to pump, i.e. resistance, the pump just spins wildly fast, accelerating its own demise.
Scott
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Yeah, I knew what was happening. I was out on a long trip, got to a gas station only to find it was abandoned, and had to make the choice to head back to the last one I saw or forge ahead. I forged ahead and then had to wait an hour for AAA to show up.
But I knew I was likely to run out of gas, so as soon as it sputtered I just pulled over. There was no way I was going to make it up that hill I was trying to climb ;) I'm guessing too that once they run out of fuel to pump, i.e. resistance, the pump just spins wildly fast, accelerating its own demise.
Scott
Since the new bikes are already loaded with electronics, it would be a simple matter to electronically limit the speed of the pump, and to shut it down as soon as it lost pressure. Only reason I can see to not do this would be to sell more pumps. Anything that expensive should have some kind of protection, especially since it would be so easy. Of course that plastic fitting should have either been replaceable or made out of metal too.
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It does shut down.. no pressure no pump.
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It does shut down.. no pressure no pump.
Not exactly the best safety device but it is effective 8)
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Not exactly the best safety device but it is effective 8)
LOL !! Yeah right ! But no...... THATS not what I mean. The pump does not continue to run after the bike stalls. The pressure drops from running out of gas.... or just not enough to cycle the injector. The bike stalls.... no rotation at the crank, the speed sensor See's no movement at the rotor. The ECU demands a manual restart to get it going again.... Not a bad safety in case of a ruptured fuel line or a tank on impact . No pressure.... no pump. And that pressure runs out QUICK! It works the same with the stock pump or an aftermarket in line deal... That plastic pub on the pump DOES suck however! ::)
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Ah! Better than the system I thought you were describing. ;)
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Ah! Better than the system I thought you were describing. ;)
Yes, sorry I wasn't more clear... When it stalls, the MIL light will pop on, and you will likely have a injector and fuel pump code. BUT, They're SHOULD be a voice that says " Hey!.... You surrrrre you want to keep hitting that start button?!.... It's YOOUURR pump".. ::) ;)
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LOL !! Yeah right ! But no...... THATS not what I mean. The pump does not continue to run after the bike stalls. The pressure drops from running out of gas.... or just not enough to cycle the injector. The bike stalls.... no rotation at the crank, the speed sensor See's no movement at the rotor. The ECU demands a manual restart to get it going again.... Not a bad safety in case of a ruptured fuel line or a tank on impact . No pressure.... no pump. And that pressure runs out QUICK! It works the same with the stock pump or an aftermarket in line deal... That plastic pub on the pump DOES suck however! ::)
That's how cars and trucks are set up too. The difference is about 6-16' of fuel line plus return and vapor lines before the engine stalls on a car or truck, where as a bike you only have about 1' if that. So on a Enfield, or really any EFI bike, you are not nearly as likely to damage the pump because you will only run it dry for a few seconds before the computer shuts it off. Where as if you run a car or truck until it stalls the pump can dry for a few minutes before the engine actually cuts out and the computer gets thew signal to turn it off. Of course the time the pump runs dry varies from car to car. BUT as Ducati Scotty mentioned earlier, you will notice the power drop off and sputtering, if you are wise enough to shut the vehicle down before the engine actually stalls most times you will prevent any damage from happening to the pump.
Scottie J