[ceekay]

If you go with a much higher gear in 1st, you may as well just start off in second.


BTW...simply going to a higher gear ratio will typically NOT increase top speed in 6th gear.....unless you are hitting redline in 6th, there is not enough power to go any faster...so A higher gear slows the engine to below its max hp rpm.  Aerodynamic improvements can make the top speed faster, even to the point of needing a higher gear.  Many bikes go faster (top speed) in 5th than they go in 6th!


Cookie

True!

[Starpeve]

Am I the only owner whose narked by the chronically short 1st year? I’d like to go 1-2 teeth smaller on rear but can’t seem to find that sprocket.so I guess it’s 1 tooth bigger on front. Anyone done it? Any feedback?
And how hard is the job?

Well I can't find any alternative rear sprockets on line so I guess it's custom . I think I'll just jump to 2 teeth smaller I'm GUESSING that's going to be close to what I'm looking for.
May as well go for a better chain whilst I'm at it. I'm guessimating that'll be about 1.5 front teeth.

[Starpeve]

Cookie
Cookie, you touched on something there that was basically what I was on about- the shift point change throughout the range. Which is what I desire. I’m not ALL about the short 1’st- I think I’d like the entire range moved up a little. And as we’re talking comparative ratios, each gear up moves up just that little bit more. 1 tooth may not be enough for my aimed result, which is why I’d prefer rear sprocket swaps, smaller increments of change. 2 teeth rear may be where I’d like it. The motor is clearly up to the task, and I certainly don’t want to go high enough to bog it down in 1st. Personally I can see absolutely NO reason to go shorter. I don’t hate how it is now, I just think I can make a beautifully tractable bike better use its abilities.
For how I like to ride.
PS this is a correction to an earlier bungled reply. Thank you for clearing up the procedure- I’ve rarely posted on forums.

So, you consider 1st gear to be too low.

I consider it to be just right or slightly too high.  Go figure

I also consider 6th gear to be on the high side....but nice as an overdrive...its there if you need it...doesn't need to be any higher though..

If you change ratio by one tooth, the change will be slight....so slight so as to have a very minor effect.  Why bother?

If you change the ratio by several teeth...you will have a big change...and will have a negative effect on starting out in 1st.  Slow off the line if you will....

Most  discussion on forums concerning 1st gear ratio has to do with LOWERING the gear, to allow for quicker off the line, jack rabbit starts....makes sense, sort of..

Then when discussing higher gear ratios, most are concerned about high speed driving, like on a highway , in 6th, toget the revs down for long trips at high speed...sort of an over drive or cruise gear...this also makes sense, sort of.

But raising gear ratio, to "improve" 1st to 2nd gear shift, achieves neither of the above aims.....

you want to shift to 2nd at a higher speed, and / or a lower rpm.....but I don't see any need for this, much less any reason for this....

Changing sprocket ratios only effects starting out in 1st, and cruising in 6th.....(yet some will argue that every ratio is different for 1,2,3,4,5,6....but really it only changes the shift points...not overall change in "performance")(this is an arguement we can have at a later time)

Stock, you can now shift from 1st to second at any speed you choose form 0 to 45 MPH!  That is quite a wide range IMHO.  My lower powered bikes, can only go 15 or 20 mph in 1st....

Of course a high powered, high revving bike can go anywhere between 0 and 90 MPH is 1st.!!


Based on power available, and red line at 7500, I think RE got the gearing just right, for all around driving!


Change your ratios...try it out....won't hurt anything, except possible drivability...who cares?...go for it...have fun...see if you like it....please yourself!

But keep in mind....changing something should be for a good reason...changing for the sake of changing is pointless...

Bigger is not always better (contrary to the "American" philosophy)....better is better..


Cookie

[NVDucati]

Here is a link to a ratio chart along with a brief overview of the topic.
https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/how-to-choose-motorcycle-sprockets

If you first determine the OEM ratio (I don't know what it is) and lay down some "indicated speed" marks at say 4000, 5000, 6000 RPM ... you get the picture. That can start to give you some direction for your plan.

Next, if you measure the hole pattern for the rear sprocket I bet the specialty vendors will know which rear sprockets from which other bikes will fit. I have a hunch that RE does not make their sprockets in house from scratch. Maybe they do. There might be a bigger selection than we think. Chances are there is a sprocket specialist company in Australia that has off-the-shelf choices. This is an American company. I have never used them but they have been at it since 1950. Based on their home page, they are good communicators. https://sprocketspecialists.com/

Your finds would be good for the cross-reference thread.
As for why do it ... after all these years, I still find myself trying to click it into 7th gear.

[Starpeve]

Here is a link to a ratio chart along with a brief overview of the topic.
https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/how-to-choose-motorcycle-sprockets

If you first determine the OEM ratio (I don't know what it is) and lay down some "indicated speed" marks at say 4000, 5000, 6000 RPM ... you get the picture. That can start to give you some direction for your plan.

Next, if you measure the hole pattern for the rear sprocket I bet the specialty vendors will know which rear sprockets from which other bikes will fit. I have a hunch that RE does not make their sprockets in house from scratch. Maybe they do. There might be a bigger selection than we think. Chances are there is a sprocket specialist company in Australia that has off-the-shelf choices. This is an American company. I have never used them but they have been at it since 1950. Based on their home page, they are good communicators. https://sprocketspecialists.com/

Your finds would be good for the cross-reference thread.
As for why do it ... after all these years, I still find myself trying to click into 7th gear...

I figured you’d get it....

[Starpeve]

Here is a link to a ratio chart along with a brief overview of the topic.
https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/how-to-choose-motorcycle-sprockets

If you first determine the OEM ratio (I don't know what it is) and lay down some "indicated speed" marks at say 4000, 5000, 6000 RPM ... you get the picture. That can start to give you some direction for your plan.

Next, if you measure the hole pattern for the rear sprocket I bet the specialty vendors will know which rear sprockets from which other bikes will fit. I have a hunch that RE does not make their sprockets in house from scratch. Maybe they do. There might be a bigger selection than we think. Chances are there is a sprocket specialist company in Australia that has off-the-shelf choices. This is an American company. I have never used them but they have been at it since 1950. Based on their home page, they are good communicators. https://sprocketspecialists.com/

Your finds would be good for the cross-reference thread.
As for why do it ... after all these years, I still find myself trying to click it into 7th gear.

That is a great article and confirms some of my gut feeling theory about sprocket relativity . Thanks so much for that! Now I need to know if there’s some way to ascertain the rear sprocket hole spacing so I can order a smaller rear. (I’m unsure how to measure it) I reckon I’ll go for broke and go straight to 3 tooth reduction. If that proves to be too extreme I’ll throw on a single tooth increase on front.
Happily, Steve😁

[NVDucati]

Now I need to know if there’s some way to ascertain the rear sprocket hole spacing so I can order a smaller rear. (I’m unsure how to measure it)

I would think that the sprocket crowd does it the same as the car wheel guys do it for their bolt holes. You can find that on the custom car wheel websites. You can even fold a piece of paper in half and physically do a pencil rub on the rear half of your sprocket while it is still on the bike.

[Starpeve]

I would think that the sprocket crowd does it the same as the car wheel guys do it for their bolt holes. You can find that on the custom car wheel websites. You can even fold a piece of paper in half and physically do a pencil rub on the rear half of your sprocket while it is still on the bike.

That pencil rub idea is fantastic! Is that an old idea or one of yours?

[NVDucati]

That pencil rub idea is fantastic! Is that an old idea or one of yours?

Thanks. New adaptation of an old idea.

[twocoolgliders]

Don't trust everything you read on the Internet!

How will it affect my speed and speedometer?

It again depends on your ratio, but both will generally be altered. Since most riders opt for a higher gear ratio than stock, they will experience a drop in top speed, and a speedometer readout that says they are going faster than they are. Conversely, dropping the ratio will have the opposite effect. Some riders purchase an add-on module to adjust the speedometer after modifying the drivetrain.


Well if your speed sensor is at the front wheel...it measures front wheel speed....has nothing to do with gear ratio.  Also, most opt for LOWER ratio, not higher.

How will it affect my mileage?

All things being equal, going to a higher gear ratio will drop your MPGs because you will have higher cruising RPMs for a given speed. More than likely, you’ll have so much fun with your snappy acceleration that you might ride more aggressively, and further decrease mileage. But hey, it’s a bike. Have fun with it and be glad you’re not driving a car.

This is exactly backwards.....higher gear means slower rpm at cruising....

The guy who wrote this is using incorrect terminology......1st gear is LOWER gear then second, etc....

A lower gear, at the the same vehicle speed, results in higher engine RPM...

His example of having to ride  the clutch for too long however, is a valid reason to go with a LOWER overall gear ratio....he doesn't use the high speed available in the bike anyway....

Keep something to keep in mind...go to a higher over all ratio....for instance you are raising the second gear ratio.....ok...but going to a lower overall ratio...you could look at it as LOWERING the third gear ratio...same result!   Changing overall ratio only has a significant effect on starting off in 1st and cruising in top gear...the middle gears don't matter!



Cookie

[NVDucati]

Folks _ Not mentioned yet is that different bikes have different "ratio spacing" between gears.
It is a design function, or flavor if you will. Comparing the rider experience between say a enduro 650 single and our 650 twins based on each going up or down one or three teeth is pretty tough to do.

The gear spacing of any particular motorcycle typically has the most variations in the middle gears, which is what some folks are talking about. Generally speaking, modern six speed bikes are the closest to a 1:1 ratio in 4th gear.

[Starpeve]

Folks _ Not mentioned yet is that different bikes have different "ratio spacing" between gears.
It is a design function, or flavor if you will. Comparing the rider experience between say a enduro 650 single and our 650 twins based on each going up or down one or three teeth is pretty tough to do.

The gear spacing of any particular motorcycle typically has the most variations in the middle gears, which is what some folks are talking about. Generally speaking, modern six speed bikes are the closest to a 1:1 ratio in 4th gear.

Exactly! And the RE has such an evenly spaced gearing that it’s perfect for stretching out a little.
BTW the fact that this bike pulls easily from 70 km/h in TOP gear tells me it’s aching to go taller. Then 6th WOULD be an overdrive gear as it’s been described by some here. (In effect if not true technical definition)
And the re-iteration that then you would struggle to make max revs in top is largely a moot point. There is nowhere in my location where I can legally ride at those speeds anyway. So I’ll lose nothing in that regard. What I CAN do is sit more happily at better revs in lower gears.
Steve

[Starpeve]

Don't trust everything you read on the Internet!

How will it affect my speed and speedometer?

It again depends on your ratio, but both will generally be altered. Since most riders opt for a higher gear ratio than stock, they will experience a drop in top speed, and a speedometer readout that says they are going faster than they are. Conversely, dropping the ratio will have the opposite effect. Some riders purchase an add-on module to adjust the speedometer after modifying the drivetrain.


Well if your speed sensor is at the front wheel...it measures front wheel speed....has nothing to do with gear ratio.  Also, most opt for LOWER ratio, not higher.

How will it affect my mileage?

All things being equal, going to a higher gear ratio will drop your MPGs because you will have higher cruising RPMs for a given speed. More than likely, you’ll have so much fun with your snappy acceleration that you might ride more aggressively, and further decrease mileage. But hey, it’s a bike. Have fun with it and be glad you’re not driving a car.

This is exactly backwards.....higher gear means slower rpm at cruising....

The guy who wrote this is using incorrect terminology......1st gear is LOWER gear then second, etc....

A lower gear, at the the same vehicle speed, results in higher engine RPM...

His example of having to ride  the clutch for too long however, is a valid reason to go with a LOWER overall gear ratio....he doesn't use the high speed available in the bike anyway....

Keep something to keep in mind...go to a higher over all ratio....for instance you are raising the second gear ratio.....ok...but going to a lower overall ratio...you could look at it as LOWERING the third gear ratio...same result!   Changing overall ratio only has a significant effect on starting off in 1st and cruising in top gear...the middle gears don't matter!



Cookie

Most modern Jap bikes have speed sensors linked to the primary drive, not old school front wheel drives like ours. And I think you’re confusing higher gearing with higher ratios, which is what he’s talking about.
Steve

[twocoolgliders]

Please note that I refer to "road bikes" as in "on the street"....(widely varying conditions)

I also refer to "racing" where I do say that there are often good reasons to change gearing based on the track..or even a particular corner.....a "high" third gear may work better than a "low" forth etc.  and the shift point for a turn may just work out better with a certain overall ratio.....

But street riding is sort of infinitely variable...so a specific (extra high or extra low) gearing makes no sense (to me)

For street, if for instance, someone ONLY did city riding...never getting above 45 MPH...and lots of stop and go...and want to ride like a maniac in and out of traffic...by all means go lower in overall gear ratio...a lot lower...

so you will have 6 speeds of gears between 0 and 45 mph...but crap high speed performance ..but who cares if you are only in the city?

If a person had a long commute on an interstate highway where traffic runs a steady 80 mph....then a higher overall ratio would be justified....once up to speed.....shift to 6th....and run with low RPM...like an overdrive...smooth...quiet...economical...steady speed.....downside would be slow from a dead stop...(but who cares, you only start off once on that commute!)

But, if like most of us...we ride in the "jack of all trades conditions".....the stock gearing is very well thought out....

The bike is plenty quick off the line....and it will cruise nicely at 70 mph.....what more could you ask for?


Cookie

PS the reason that "middle gears don't matter" is that you simply shift to another gear.  Gearing is basically an overall curve.....if we had a CVT the curve would be perfectly smooth, and the engine would run at peak HP the whole time (for high performance use).....since we have 6 speeds instead of infinitely variable...all you do is choose the breaks in the curve when we go from one gear to the next.....same curve....

Lower overall ratio just moves the entire curve to the lower ranges...and higher gearing just moves the curve up...only the endpoints are different...the curve doesn't change....the shift points change...but the curve does not....

I f you look at he charts I posted in another thread...by changing gear ratio some weird stuff happens..like the new "forth gear is actually a lower gear then the old third!!!!  but notice the whatever the ratio...the curve is unchanged except for the starting point and the ending point..


But for "recreational riding"...on the RE.....we have a broad torque band.....and we have 6 speeds, and we typically don't do max performance pulls from a dead stop to 80 mph.....so at a given speed...the bike will run just fine in several possible gears!  This is a feature which make the RE so enjoyable to ride.    A bike with a ;narrow poer band which is at say 9000 rpm....is really fast, and really powerful....but has to be driven and shifted carefully and correctly.....the RE?  Ah  whatever!

That's not always the case. I use a 14t sprocket on my supermoto for go kart tracks and a 15t on full size ones. the bigger sprocket lets the motor pull a bit longer in each gear, lets the bike be in a better gear for faster corners as well as giving a better top speed for that long back straight. Everyone else I know who races or takes track days seriously has different sprocket sets for different tracks. I know what you're saying, that in the intermediate gears you can get the same speed just in a different gear but there's more to it than that. The 14t is good for wheelies, too. I haven't tried a 16t but it would probably be a good thing except that apparently it brings the chain too close to the crankcase with grindy results.  A 6 speed box would be even better. Thanks for nothing, Suzuki.

[twocoolgliders]

So if your are not going at high speeds...and you "stretch" the ratios "up"...you are in effect giving up gears!

If you plan to ride in a slower overall speed range, it makes more sense to "stretch" the ratios down...which is what a lot of riders do...

With the wide power band of the RE and 6 speeds...gearing does "overlap" quite a bit...so it really doesn't matter what gear you are in....

But 42 mph in top gear and trying to pull away..maybe it "can" do that...but I "wouldn't"....

I "typically" shift first to second at 5000 rpm and 30 mph....second takes be to 40 mph.....no way would I be in 5th of 6th!!!   And I'm talking just nice smooth easy accelerations....if I wanted faster accelerations I would go to redline in each gear...

Bigger gearing and slower riding...sounds backwards to me!

Exactly! And the RE has such an evenly spaced gearing that it’s perfect for stretching out a little.
BTW the fact that this bike pulls easily from 70 km/h in TOP gear tells me it’s aching to go taller. Then 6th WOULD be an overdrive gear as it’s been described by some here. (In effect if not true technical definition)
And the re-iteration that then you would struggle to make max revs in top is largely a moot point. There is nowhere in my location where I can legally ride at those speeds anyway. So I’ll lose nothing in that regard. What I CAN do is sit more happily at better revs in lower gears.
Steve