[Pond Snail]

Hello All  ,

OK, time for a question!, whilst working on my bike I have come across a strange issue with the TCI unit, the bike was running fine with the large TCI unit that came fitted, but that being said I do not really know how the bike should run anyway, I have brought an up rated green TCI unit from Hitchcocks, but am now faced with connector plugs that will not fit the new unit  ...

You can see from the photo, the old unit is so much larger than the upgraded unit, is the old larger unit a previous model?, or might it well be off another make of machine altogether??.

Could someone please post a photo of their own bike, with the standard setup?, showing how the unit is mounted and what colour wires go into what terminals on the upgraded unit?, I do not know if I can get the correct terminal plugs separately, if not, then I can, not ideal  , just put some female spade conductors on the loom wires and connect them individually to the upgraded TCI unit.

I also note that the sidestand switch has been removed, cannot see exactly where in the loom it has been cut from, will take a closer look, not that I need a switch to tell me the sidestand is down, but I see it should plug into the TCI unit, will it make a difference if it is left off?.

Check out the household 240 volt cable spliced into the loom  , oh the joys of a previous owners handywork, little hidden gems waiting to spring out in utter disbelief  ...

Thank you in advance,

John 

[tooseevee]

Hello All  ,

OK, time for a question!, whilst working on my bike I have come across a strange issue with the TCI unit, the bike was running fine with the large TCI unit that came fitted, but that being said I do not really know how the bike should run anyway, I have brought an up rated green TCI unit from Hitchcocks, but am now faced with connector plugs that will not fit the new unit  ...

You can see from the photo, the old unit is so much larger than the upgraded unit, is the old larger unit a previous model?, or might it well be off another make of machine altogether??.

Could someone please post a photo of their own bike, with the standard setup?, showing how the unit is mounted and what colour wires go into what terminals on the upgraded unit?, I do not know if I can get the correct terminal plugs separately, if not, then I can, not ideal  , just put some female spade conductors on the loom wires and connect them individually to the upgraded TCI unit.

I also note that the sidestand switch has been removed, cannot see exactly where in the loom it has been cut from, will take a closer look, not that I need a switch to tell me the sidestand is down, but I see it should plug into the TCI unit, will it make a difference if it is left off?.

Check out the household 240 volt cable spliced into the loom  , oh the joys of a previous owners handywork, little hidden gems waiting to spring out in utter disbelief  ...

Thank you in advance,

John 

          (A) I put the Green TCI on my '08 many years ago and also removed the delay unit that was on it new. The Green TCI has the spark delay that helps prevent that early spark kickback built in.

          (B) Your Black TCI is not the same as the one that was on my '08. It must be a generation beFORE the one on my '08. My original Black TCI had the connector for the kickstand switch built in. The original connector plugs from the Black one plugged directly into the new Green TCI so I'm afraid I cannot help you there. I cut the kickstand switch connector plug off flush on the Green TCI and sealed the exposed wire ends with J-BWeld. I totally removed all the wires and connectors for the kickstand switch. Don't need it or want it.

           (C) The kickstand switch doesn't need to be plugged into the Green TCI for the bike to operate properly.

            (D) Luckily I had no previous owner. Everything done to mine I've done myself (except the headwork by our guru Ace) from Day One and I remember every day of the whole 10 years of bullet-proofing and modding this black beast. The worst part was the HORRIBLE factory wiring that was going on in 2008. I went through every single bloody wire on the whole bike and it was a disgrace. Things are HUGEly improved now.

             I wish I could help you more on connecting your Green TCI, but there are some VERY smart guys here who will.  I would never have gotten through my 10 years* of modding this bike without them. Them and also Pete Snidal who gave me tremendous help offline from this forum.

             * The bike was a zero mileage, never sold, leftover that I tracked down and bought in the latter part of 2010.   

[Adrian II]

Hi John,

the chunky thing you have there is a GS125 Suzuki TCI, it was sold by Hitchcocks' as a performance item. I had one on my first Electra-X, given to me by Rex Caunt Racing rather than from H, and it worked very well, with an extra 4° advance AND retard over the stock unit, so if it yours is running fine, I'd leave it where it is, though you could perhaps re-do the wiring to it. tooseevee tried one on his AVL Classic, unsuccessfuly, as I recall.

The electrical connectors for the green TCI are a little specialized, though if you grub around in the electrical section of H's accessory catalog they are there, I'll post a link if you can't find them.

It's an unfortunate fact that the Indian-built RE Bullet seems to have attracted ham-fisted DIY owners, my new (2006) Electra-X had been hacked into too, and don't get me started on some of the victims to the current hipster-fueled bobber craze.

A.

[tooseevee]

Hi John,

the chunky thing you have there is a GS125 Suzuki TCI, it was sold by Hitchcocks' as a performance item. I had one on my first Electra-X, given to me by Rex Caunt Racing rather than from H, and it worked very well, with an extra 4° advance AND retard over the stock unit, so if it yours is running fine, I'd leave it where it is, though you could perhaps re-do the wiring to it. tooseevee tried one on his AVL Classic, unsuccessfully, as I recall.

The electrical connectors for the green TCI are a little specialized, though if you grub around in the electrical section of H's accessory catalog they are there, I'll post a link if you can't find them.

A.

           You're right, Adrian. I recognize it now. I remember you led me to the connectors so I could try it. I think the one I got had some kind of difference in the map from the ones that worked.

            I remember I spliced those connectors into the existing wiring using Posi-Taps so I could go right back to the Green one if necessary. A fussy, stressful job with those tiny spider web wires, but IlovethisbikeIlovethisbikeIlovethisbike 

            That was a waaay long time ago 

             BTW all the Posi-Tap stuff is great. The only drawback is that they are bulky. They leave big bumps in your wrapping. But that's minor.

           

[Pond Snail]

Thank's for the reply's Tooseevee and Adrian,  .

Great, something I had not heard of, I shall leave the Suzuki GS 125 unit on for now, and definitely redo the wiring!, I have a delay unit, brought from Hitchcocks, so will fit that.

If you could post a link to the connectors please Adrian, I had a look but could not see them, however I did take a look at the delay unit fitting instructions, Hitchcocks have two very good detailed photos in which I could see where the wires go, into the modified green TCI unit.

I have made a quick drawing, which shows where each wire connects to in both the factory and the Suzuki units.


Good to know I do not need to connect the sidestand switch, yet more wires!, sounds you like you had some real fun with the wiring on you're bike Tooseevee!, no doubt I will end up doing the same  ....

In fact, if I really take to this bike, then I think it will be a full on rebuild some time  .

Posi Taps, I shall check them out,

John 

[Adrian II]

Right, green TCI.

Here's the link for the terminals, I bought some a while back as my present Electra-X is being rewired. Slowly.

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Block-Connectors?&model=

Top left one is for the ignition coil, top row 2nd from the left and 2nd row on the left are for the factory TCI, whether original black or replacement green.

I'm not sure how you'd wire the delay unit into the Suzuki box, though there are a limited number of ways to try it! I think it's easier with the OEM box, BUT if you have the green TCI box you don't need the additional spark delay unit. The SDU was developed as an interim fix for early Electras fitted with the original black TCI box, the green TCI box, which later models had fitted from the factory, already has the spark delay circuitry built-in, so it's a stand-alone piece of kit. Both the old UK and USA importers were offering these as a free replacement for the black ones when they first came in.

The key to saving the sprag clutch is, I am convinced, replacing the exhaust valve lifter with the old Bullet's decompressor valve, a bit of head machining will be needed.





A.

[Pond Snail]

Thank you very much for the link Adrian, and yes, you are right about fitting the delay unit to the GS 125 box, I am going to fit the upgraded green TCI unit, at least then I will have the spark delay built in, much more easy to do.

When I do remove the cylinder head, to fix a small oil weep, I shall look into fitting the old type decompressor valve.

Once again, thank you both for you're great reply's, very much appreciated  .

John  .

[tooseevee]

Thank you very much for the link Adrian, and yes, you are right about fitting the delay unit to the GS 125 box, I am going to fit the upgraded green TCI unit, at least then I will have the spark delay built in, much more easy to do.

When I do remove the cylinder head, to fix a small oil weep, I shall look into fitting the old type decompressor valve.

John  .

           I've always been a kick starter, the only bike I've ever had with ES is the Enfield and I knew I needed to save the sprag from day one for those traffic situations so they don't run over me if I should happen to kill it. But over the years I've now increased my ES use as it becomes harder and harder and more painful to kick. The hardest part is nudging it just past TDC with 9.8:1 compression with my barely 124# mass soaking wet. I can stand on the kicker all day; it doesn't care And it hurts and just makes me madder at my self-destructing body

            I do wish I had a REAL compression release, but it starts with the barest touch of the button so I ain't worryin' about it now. Too much else goin' on

[Adrian II]

I do wish I had a REAL compression release

I remember having some correspondence with Ace about this after he Fireballed your cylinder head, he seemed to think a decompressor was still possible, though I don't think he had the iron barrel decomp valve in mind following the combustion chamber re-working, possible a smaller one off a chainsaw?

but it starts with the barest touch of the button

Just keep that battery sweet! 

A.

[tooseevee]

I remember having some correspondence with Ace about this after he Fireballed your cylinder head, he seemed to think a decompressor was still possible, though I don't think he had the iron barrel decomp valve in mind following the combustion chamber re-working, possible a smaller one off a chainsaw?

Just keep that battery sweet! 

A.

           I don't remember that he and I discussed it at the time. It was a long time ago. It's OK, I can still kickstart it. I just have to make my leg weigh 200# and it hurts a bit

           Oh, yeah! The little Screaming Yellow MotoBatt that I have in my right side case is always on tender. It's a great little battery that gives me a lot of starts without the engine running before it runs out; I tested it when I first put it in. Even cold starts are only a few seconds and and it just sits there purring with no throttle at all. Warm starts are simply breathe on the button   

[Pond Snail]

I am with you on the need to use the electric starter tooseevee, sadly my knee is definitely not up to too many kick-starts  , I was due an operation but then covid stepped in, not me personally!, and so many operations, treatments were cancelled....

I read on this forum, an Italian company/bike shop did a modification, they managed to put a late, and they said a much more durable, sprag from a fuel injected unit bullet, into the Electra X's sprag clutch, sorry I can't seem to be able to find the link now  , I shall look tomorrow and post it here, if that's OK  ,

John 

[heloego]

Of course it's OK!

[Michael Marsceill]

There is a complete sprag assembly available that includes the "improved" sprag that's on the current 500cc bikes. Tim got one for me. Haven't installed it yet. but the sprag design looks less fragile than the old ones. Look at the post in this section labeled Sprag for details.

[Michael Marsceill]

Okay, forgot what forum I was on. The info is on the Western Cycle forum in the AVL section.

[Michael Marsceill]

http://forum.westerncyclesupply.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=90

[Adrian II]

I tried to sign up for that forum last night and get rejected, they thought I was a spammer!

A.

[Nitrowing]

Is the green TCI a worthwhile upgrade on a 2005 Electra X?

[heloego]

Absolutely.
And you no longer need this monstrosity (see attachment).

[Nitrowing]

I can't say I've even noticed it!

[Adrian II]

The green TCI was supposed to be the permanent answer to Electra-X backfires crunching the sprag clutch in the electric start mechanism. Using the valve lifter for starting/stopping the engine is also good practice, shame the silly little plastic lever on the left hand switch cluster isn't up to it.

Solutions?

1. Use an old-style METAL decompressor/valve lifter lever on the handlebars, lots of old classic British singles had these, OR;

2. Modify the cylinder head to take the cast-iron cylinder Bullet's decompressor valve and bin the valve lifter.

Helego's picture shows the separate spark-delay unit which was originally an add-on for the original black TCI box. If you have the later green TCI you won't need the separate spark delay unit, all the electronics for that are already built in.

A.

[Paul W]

Been thinking about the decompressor lever issue; has anyone ever built one into the throttle twist grip?

Some bikes with multiple carbs have a double cable setup, where  the second cable pulls the throttle shut (my Honda is one). It might be possible to arrange things so that a spring brings the throttle closed but twisting the grip further forwards operates the decompressor cable.

[Adrian II]

The Electra-X r/h switch gear and throttle was copied directly from the push-pull throttle and switches used on big Suzukis around 2000, only it was just set up for a single throttle cable. All this came in handy when I fitted a Mikuni TM36-31 which has opening and closing cables.



Then there's this sort of thing:



A.

[Paul W]

I’m thinking more about an off road riding situation where a throttle controlled decompressor would allow the rider to keep his fingers on the throttle grip (I have found it useful to use the decompressor on steep muddy descents) but that’s very difficult using the fiddly factory lever.

[Mick Bailey]

The green TCI unit doesn't have a delay built in. At least, the ones I've analyzed haven't. The way it works is different to the black unit. The black one sets a fixed time from the first pulse it gets after being powered (ignition switched on) and then switches the coil to produce the spark. The reason it is prone to kicking back is if the engine rotates slowly due to a poor battery or being kicked over lazily, then the spark will be produced early - way before it's supposed to. There's an assumption by the manufacturer that the engine will turn over at a certain speed in order for the first spark to occur at the correct position.

The green unit works by receiving the first pulse and using this as a reference. When it gets the second pulse it calculates the point at which the coil will need to be switched (actually it calculates how many mS after the second pulse will need to elapse). As such, It knows the rotational speed of the crank because it knows the interval between the two pulses. When the engine is running both units behave in the same way. Both units also have a reset where the unit is re-initialized if the engine has not immediately started.

The black unit has one advantage - if you can kick the bike over it can start in much less than one crank rotation. The green unit always needs to see two pulses to start, so always has to see one full rotation after the first pulse is received. So if you've removed the starter/sprag clutch the black unit is a better choice for kickstarting, so long as you can kick it over briskly enough so as not to backfire. 

I've observed that the advance on both units is very limited and a serious restriction on power development. My reasoning for this is that a retarded ignition increases the exhaust temperature and assists in the operation of the hot-tube device. One of the biggest performance gains with these bikes is to improve the advance curve and match the ignition to the particular bike.

[Paul W]

Mick, I have an Indian home market Bullet Electra 350. These bikes have TCI ignition but are kickstart only. I spotted and bought a TCI box (2 connector, black case as per the original) via eBay because I thought it best to hold a spare unit. When it arrived it was slightly different to the one already fitted, although the connectors were identical. It’s marked “9-32”. Adrian tells me this corresponds to the standard ignition curve of a points ignition Bullet. I fitted it to see if it would run. In fact, it seems to run a bit more crisply than before so I left it on the bike. I have no idea what the original curve was because there’s no way of checking on these bikes.

[Mick Bailey]

There is a way of checking - here's how I did it;

A standard degree wheel is rotated by a 12v motor and speed control is done using a simple 555 PWM/2N3055 controller which will go from 0-12,000 RPM.  A Lucas RIta pickup is used to generate the timing pulse. The Rita output feeds the TCI unit which in turn powers a coil/plug assembly. All is powered off a 13.4V bench power supply.

A Xenon strobe is used on the degree wheel (that also has a fixed pointer) to read off the advance, and a digital dwell/RPM meter used to measure rotational speed. In addition I had an oscilloscope connected to view the output waveform of the Rita ans well as the output of the TCI unit.

My findings are that the TCI units vary slightly, but overall the curve of the black and green units matches. The static advance is between 8 and 9 degrees, and the maximum advance 28 degrees, though one green unit had an advance of only 26 degrees (at just over 3000 RPM). The rule of thumb for a 500 single that I use is 10 degrees per 1000 RPM up to a maximum at 3000 RPM, then make changes from there, changing from a straight line to a curve to give a quicker initial advance and then level off to give a flatter increase between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM.

The thing with an Electra is that on the flat an flat-out the ignition can be further advanced to give a lot more power. A real shove just when you think there's no more power to be gained. Of course, this is no good for general riding. You'd need a knock sensor and associated electronics to do this automatically but I did think of building a TCI that used a digital encoder disguised as an advance lever to give more flexibility.

[Adrian II]

Nice to hear from you again, Mick.

The alternative to TCI is slowly coming together...

A.

[Mick Bailey]

That's the way! Also, the manual advance would make all the difference. There's a straight I was using for performance testing and I did quite a lot of experimenting with timing and ended up with a set of switches to advance or retard the ignition in 0.7 degree steps, with a total range of +/- 4.7 degrees (9.4 degree total range). This just shifted my pre-loaded advance curve backwards and forwards. This was awkward because the 4 switches are binary coded, so not easy to adjust. I did think that a circuit board and contact arrangement could be built underneath a regular advance lever to give a more user-friendly adjustment.

I much prefer the idea of incorporating a magneto rather than electronic means of achieving control over timing. I consider this to be the real missing piece when it comes to getting the best out of these bikes. No matter what you do with cams, carbs and cylinder work, you have to get flexibility in the timing, and the regular TCI setup can't cut it, even with elongating pickup holes and using the Suzuki TCI.

[Adrian II]

The plans for this engine have changed, originally it was for a Lucas SR1 mag with the drive-pinion mounted auto advance.

You could also use a manual advance mag on most tuned iron barrel Bullet engines (as Redditch fitted to their competition models), though I think Bullet Whisperer's very successful BHR series racing Bullets use a crank mounted CDI (not TCI).

A.

[Paul W]

I’m intrigued by your finding that the max advance of the TCI controllers you have tested is only 28 degrees. I wonder why mine is marked 9-32 (embossed in the black casing next to the part number). It is a Royal Enfield part, it came direct from India in an OE box. I’ve written elsewhere that it seems to have perked the bike up.

In the past I had good results on my trials engine (Tuned, very high compression, 4 cylinder Reliant with a distributor) using an Aldon Amethyst ignition system. This involves locking up the mechanical advance and programming the curve using the supplied software on a laptop. This could be used on single cylinder engine.

[Adrian II]

Yours could be for a later UCE carb-fitted 350 Paul, RE India have had a few years to improve on their original black and green TCI boxes since the last of the pre-UCE models.

As a factory accessory a basic electronic ignition kit was available for the iron barrel Bullets, this had no electronic advance curve at all and simply relied on the mechanical auto-advance in the "distributor". It might be possible to lock the auto-advance and convert the dizzie to manual advance and retard. The Aldon Amethyst sounds interesting.

Not much use for the Electra-X, Electra 350 or AVL Classic though.  You presumably could get a fixed advance TCI easily enough and with some rather fiddly engineering build in a mechanical advance for the trigger unit, but would even 5 people on the planet actually want to ride the thing afterwards? Some way of turning the alternator round so that you could mount the stator and trigger on the inner primary chaincase and have the inner face of the rotor pointing inwards could make life a lot easier for checking ignition timing. I think the boss for the rotor's tapered mounting is riveted in, perhaps it could be drilled out, swapped over and re-riveted, maybe with some kind of vernier mount?

A.

[Paul W]

I think the Amethyst might be workable on a TCI bike. I had previously dispensed with the points in the distributor and fitted an Aldon Ignitor (sold under the “Pertronix” name in the USA). The TCI trigger might be usable but I’d have to look up the instructions online to check. I sold the entire setup to a fellow trialler when I swapped the Reliant engine for the Suzuki G10, which now has my own one-off supercharger throttle body and fuel injection setup, needing an ECU.

[Mick Bailey]

I just checked and none of the TCI units I have are marked with a timing figure. The latest green one was manufactured in 2008 and I don't know what was manufactured after then that was specifically for the Electra-X. There shouldn't be any variation in timing between similar units, but that assumes the programming is the same in both cases. Component tolerance may come into it in that the signal from the pickup goes through a conditioning circuit before being used as an input to the processor, but given the steep slope of the timing pulse and the short duration I can only see this being responsible for a fraction of a degree. Other than that it could be a design decision within the programmed advance curve but there's no clue to this marked on the units I have.

[Paul W]

Without dismantling my bike to photograph it I can’t prove that my TCI box is so marked, but I do have one of the box it came in, which has the same markings. Note that the packing date is 2014, so it might be for a UCE engine. However, it only has two sockets for wiring connections while I understand that later bikes had a third connection for a “side stand down” safety cutout.

Hitchcock’s lists the part without giving details of which bike it’s intended for. The one I bought came from India for under a third of their price, btw!

[Mick Bailey]

The box that the 2008 part came in just has a part number and nothing else and is the red print on a white background rather than the later packaging. That particular one came from Watsonian. It makes more sense to mark the unit with the advance, especially if there's yet another change or revision. Maybe they recognized that the older units had insufficient advance and have marked the later ones to identify them.

[Paul W]

Possibly so. The original TCI box on the bike, which is a 2004 model was like that (that is now stored as my spare), marked with the part number only. Maybe that one has 28 degrees max advance built in, too.

As I said, presumably with the advertised 32 degree max advance, this box seems to free up the top end of the rev range; I originally tried it as an experiment, but I've never since taken it off. The bike is now no plodder (actually it will plod, but it can also rev quite high, to the point where the valves will bounce, even though I lightened the rocker arms).