Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: Richard230 on October 07, 2018, 11:01:38 pm
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I changed the fork oil in my B5 yesterday and I could never have done it without Ducati Scotty's C5 Fork Tutorial (posted on the old forum as index.php/topic.10813). While I didn't rebuild the forks like he did, I did use his instructions to remove the forks from the headlight nacelle. His comment about the fork cap threads being a reverse thread really saved the day. This was the first time the fork oil had been changed since my bike was built in February 2011 and getting those caps off was a real bear. It took a lot of hammering with an electric impact hammer to loosen them. But the job got done and my bike has new (and real) 10W fork oil now. The forks are working just great. Pictures attached. Thanks again Scotty! ;D
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i plan to do this myself in a matter of weeks. so that plug was the hardest to move and how did you do it.
did the ride quality improve. all info on your job appreciated
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i plan to do this myself in a matter of weeks. so that plug was the hardest to move and how did you do it.
did the ride quality improve. all info on your job appreciated
You really have to follow Scotty's very detailed instructions. Those screw-in forks are weird. You need a long 12mm hex key and a breaker bar to get them to screw out. The fork's top cap, which is the same one that you use to screw out the fork assembly, is a reverse thread (makes sense), but mine were in very tight. I had to have help holding the fork tubes steady. I used penetrating oil around the plugs then hit them several times with a hammer-type impact driver, followed by several minutes using an electrical impact wrench with a 12mm hex bit before they started turning. (However, keep in mind that mine had never been removed in over 7 years and who know how they were tightened at the factory.) Scotty recommends reinserting the fork tubes back into the headlight nacelle and clamping the lower triple tree bolts tight to hold them in place. But I didn't do that. I wrapped the fork tubes with friction tape and did my best to keep the tube from turning when the impact wrench was being used. The amount of fork oil in my B5 is 200cc, according to my owner's manual and that amount is what I used. The fork action seems smoother and more controlled now. Surprisingly, the oil that came out was not as nasty as I had expected. It was black but no chunks of stuff came out with the oil and it didn't stink too bad. :)
What Scotty doesn't tell you are the torque specs for reassembling the fork and front wheel. The lower triple tree pinch bolts get tightened to 33 NM. The caliper bolts take 27 NM and the front wheel axle is tightened to 50-70 NM. I have the factory service manual for the bike and it is useless for removing and reinstalling the forks. All it says is to remove them from the bike. Nothing about how or that the fork caps are reverse threaded. >:(
Any other questions?
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These are excellent instructions for the "bent" forks but not the "straight" forks on the C5. The "straight" forks have an 8mm "normal" (ie CCW) loosen socket head cap with steel washer. Remove caliper and tape it to downtube; remove remaining six fender bolts; remove front wheel; remove fender; remove fork caps; loosen lower triple clamp bolts two turns; and slide out fork tubes. CMW offers Bel Ray 10W fork oil (https://www.classicmotorworks.com/bel-ray-10w-fork-oil/). There is some question on how much to use so I won't venture an opinion -- do your own search. However more is stiffer.
If you want to go beyond fork oil replacement, RaceTech is ready to lighten your wallet (http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/12/Royal%20Enfield/Bullet%20500/2007-17).
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thanks for the detailed reply...very helpful. my new bike is bouncing all over the road. I dropped the rear shocks to their softest setting BUT its up front I really feel the first jolt through the bars.
I plan to do this oil fork change shortly - that is after the correct socket arrives in the mail.
not all C5's ride the same...its just like their motors. ..some are good and some are crap!
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thanks to BOTH detailed replies ;)
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Ducatti Scotty's tutorial is here:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.msg125736.html#msg125736 (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.msg125736.html#msg125736)
Also, here's information about a printable PDF version of the tutorial for anyone who wants it - still available 6 years later!
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.msg169704.html#msg169704 (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.msg169704.html#msg169704)
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I might add that it is helpful when removing the front wheel to place a 1/2 inch wooden board under the center stand so that the wheel can be raised a little more than otherwise when the front end is jacked up. That allows the front wheel to be removed without loosening or removing the front fender. Removing the caliper before removing the wheel also makes the job easier.
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I forgot to mention -- wrap a tiedown strap from centerstand to downtube to prevent rolling off the centerstand.
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Just giving mine a going over, just ask if there is anything you want to know.
(https://image.ibb.co/jJ7POp/IMG_20181007_135440_1.jpg)
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That is a "straight" fork as used on a C5. Ducati Scotty's excellent instructions are for the "bent" forks.
All parts are shown in this picture except top cap and washer.
Note the flats on the fine-thread plug to the left of the inner leg. That's the one that's tricky to remove due to spring tension.
Haggis -- is your plug steel or aluminum? Also the white spacer to the left of the spring -- is that stock? What fork oil did you use?
PS thanks very very much for that picture.
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Was not sure if the internals for the older style forks were the same or not.
Do the older forks have the same top and bottom bushes?
Yes that very very tight top cap is steel with an O ring seal.
Not too much spring preload as I am able to reinsert the top cap the first few turns by hand.
The white spacer is plastic. Really. No washers either end.
I have a bottle of Silkolene/Fuchs 15w fork oil handy, so thats what I will use.
Just had a look at the older forks strip down, there are NO fork bushes fitted. Is this how they are on the older (bent) models?
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Haggis, your fork is certainly a lot cleaner than my B5 bent-bottom fork was. It had a rusted steel spacer instead of your clean plastic one and a rusting washer on top of the spring, located between the spring and the steel spacer. My fork cap also didn't look anywhere near as clean as yours does. Since I just replaced my oil instead of pulling the entire fork apart, I can't say what else was different, although Scotty's photos show everything inside the fork and I assume mine would look the same. For me 10wt fork oil seems to work fine. I think 15wt would be too stiff for my bike. But then it seems like every fork and RE is a little different - as you no doubt are aware. ::)
Good luck putting everything back together and let us know how it works once you go for a ride on a rough road. :)
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My reading indicates less oil (more air) produces softer ride so maybe 170cc 15W might provide larger comfort range?
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thanks for all the above info. just goes to show when you think all the new bikes in the enfield range should be equal rides...still not the case.
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can any-one give an estimate how long this job would take to just change the fork oil?
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I decided I might have a go at this fork oil change. I undid the top cap and found it was fully threaded into the depths of the housing
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCyDsjJW/IMG_6066.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BL6Vb0Cg)
after that I shone the torch inside the housing and much to my surprise - no hex head or anything at all I could see to attach the 12mm hex shaft too
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYmbqz6D/42950836_1117469085075502_3054651058119770112_n_1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
after that I decided not to go ahead and wait it out for answers. is it possible that threaded fork shaft bolt replaces the hex style which was originally unscrewed in earlier models to release the shaft?
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Your forks are the same as mine. That top bolt holds the fork leg into the headlight casquette. If you have removed the front wheel and mudguard when you slacken the bottom fork clamp bolt the fork leg will just pull down and out.
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thanks...after seeing that I didn't go any further and stopped immediately LOL
might continue on with it again tomorrow
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can any-one give an estimate how long this job would take to just change the fork oil?
I had never done the job before (and neither had anyone else on my bike). It took me about 2 hours, start to finish. But I needed a helper to hold the forks steady while the fork tube cap was removed. However, that will not be a problem if you have a way to hold the fork securely in a vice without damaging it while you unscrew the fork cap plug. I bet, because your bike is new, that removing the forks and the fork cap will be a lot easier than what I had to deal with. ;)
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Those fork caps were tighter than a tight thing. They must have a special heavy duty technician tasked with making them as tight as humanly possible.
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Those fork caps were tighter than a tight thing. They must have a special heavy duty technician tasked with making them as tight as humanly possible.
Well then, I guess nothing has changed since 2011. ::) I bet they use some sort of an air impact wrench to install those plugs. Even if they installed them at 6 NM, they still wouldn't leak or unscrew. So I just don't get what they are thinking. But then that is nothing new for me. ;)
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in that case there's probably a good chance the cap on mine will be rock sold too.
that's the threaded cap I have to turn clockwise to undo it
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in that case there's probably a good chance the cap on mine will be rock sold too.
that's the threaded cap I have to turn clockwise to undo it
Provided that your fork tubes screw out counter-clockwise then the fork cap will screw out clockwise. I might add that unscrewing the fork tubes was not at all difficult.
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wildbill -- you have "normal" forks which means normal not reverse threads. Follow Haggis and my instructions.
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thanks-will do. meanwhile if you'd all like to se a good video review on the 650 continental check it out in the interceptor section.
aussie bike reviewer doing the testing
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here
https://youtu.be/8vFaZrO3YeM
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The fork legs DO NOT screw into the casquette on my 2016 C5 with the straight forks legs. They are plain and unthreaded. The top cap is normal right hand thread. Anticlockwise to undo.
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The fork legs DO NOT screw into the casquette on my 2016 C5 with the straight forks legs. They are plain and unthreaded. The top cap is normal right hand thread. Anticlockwise to undo.
Well, that makes life a little easier. ;)
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I can confirm that 15w fork oil is giving me good results. I now have compression damping as well as much improved rebound damping. Happy days.????????????☀
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There seem to be different versions of the new type forks (well, newer, the CGT, Himalyan and now the twins are different again).
The first type of fork with the internals as shown in Haggis' picture appeared on the AVL 350 Thunderbird models in India, and are disk brake leading-axle forks (BENT??? come on, guys!). The stanchions have plain tops and push into the top yokes, as well as having screw-in caps on a standard R/H thread. The alloy sliders have central mounts for the front fender. The same forks were used when the 350 Thunderbird went UCE.
Next we have the early C5 and early B5 forks as per Scotty's original tutorial. These are also leading-axle, disk brake, though the sliders have lugs for traditionally mounted fender stays. The stanchion tops on these have the traditional RE external threads and will screw into just about any pre-2009 RE India headlamp casquette or even a Redditch Interceptor alloy top yoke. The stanchions have screw-in caps too, though these are on a LEFT HAND thread.
Then we get to the 2012-on type C5 forks, as in Haggis' photo - same internals, but on ther slider the axle is now in line with the center-line of the forks, plain stanchion tops with the Thunderbird-type right-hand threaded tops. 2016/17 B5s ended up with these too.
Finally we have the interim B5 forks (2012-2016?), still with leading-axle sliders but with the plain stanchion tops and r/h threaded screw cap as above.
There's also a drum brake version of these on some Indian 350 UCE models.
I think that's the lot unless anyone knows of more.
You CAN modify these forks for in-situ oil changes, I shall be doing a set of B5 forks soon and will post some photos.
A.
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One my main question was that my forks have teflon coated bushes top and bottom for the fork leg to slide on, just like a normal Japanese bike fork.
Looking at the leading axle forks there does not appear to be any bushes. Just the alloy slider straight onto the chrome stanchion.?
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I guess I can toss in comments about the 2011, G5 forks.
For reasons unknown to me, the G5 forks have a dedicated oil drain plug at the bottom of each fork.
To change the fork oil, all that is required is to remove the top caps (plugs), remove the drain plugs at the bottom and pump the forks up and down to force the oil out.
Then, reinstall the drain plugs, pour in the fork oil and replace the top caps. Couldn't be simpler.
I don't know why RE didn't use these forks on the B and the C models. Poor planning I guess.
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Of course on my 2011 B5 you can't remove the fork plug without first removing the entire fork. Since you have to remove the fork cap to get the oil in, you might as well just dump it out via that route and ignore the bolt at the bottom of the fork. Besides I was worried that it was threaded into the damping rod and getting it removed and then screwed in again would likely be a hassle without a tool to hold the damping rod steady. So upside-down and into the pan for draining it went. ;) Just like most newer forks.
The little drain screws that made changing fork oil so easy on Japanese bikes are long gone. I hope the manufacturers spend the few cents that eliminating the fork drain screw wisely. ::)
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Adrian II -- if you hadn't noticed there are a number of seniors and other mature folks on this forum who have fun with the English language. I live in one of those San Diego neighborhoods where the terms "bent" and "straight" are applicable as is the term "Hillcrest sandals". I'm not the only one -- recently there's wildbill's "2. long term it would improve their vision...LOL". We're retired. We need our small pleasures.
Reverse engineering RE's fork evolution and variants is a mug's game. Basically we need to look at the evidence at hand and shared on this and related fora. There are several curious aspects. For instance, the top and bottom steel bushings in Haggis's picture. And the missing spacer washers. Finally there is that small steel tube to the right of the damping rod -- what's its function?
I am looking forward to your photos as I try to better understand RE fork operation and possible improvements.
BTW I recommend a trip to Race Tech (http://racetech.com/) if for no other reason than to understand how telescopic forks work, the affect of oil viscosity, etc
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The top and bottom bushes are teflon coated brass and the small steel tube fits on the bottom of the damper tube.
It has a taper shape which matches a taper hole in the bottom of the stanchion.
As the fork reaches maximum travel it blocks the flow of oil causing a hydraulic lock, this prevents the forks from bottoming out metal to metal.
This only happens in last half inch of fork travel.
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ok well how's this for the summary on the forks
STRAIGHT - no bend in the SHAFT...LOL so i'd say STRAIGHT.
BENT - almost straight but a slight curve near the end! so it's classed as BENT!
OFF SET - bent at the bottom but straight at the top/tip...LOL or OFF SET!
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Thanks to all for all of this clarification, but I still have one point of confusion. My late 2014 C5 has straight forks. I removed the 8mm stainless steel threaded cap from the top of the headlamp casquette which appears identical to those seen in wildbill's photo. I can see that the larger diameter unthreaded shoulder of the screw bears against a recessed surface in the casquette and the threaded portion of the hole below that is presumably the threaded top cap for the fork leg. How else could it hold the fork leg in place? Is that correct? Is there a hex shaped recess in the cap below these threads used to remove the cap? That feature is not readily obvious to my eye but seems necessary to remove the cap from the fork leg. Any chance anyone may have taken a photo or two of the threaded end of the fork tube cap? These would be most revealing. Thanks very much. Great discussion going on here. Regards, Kevin Daly
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lucky you just asked as I am doing it now. after you remove that top threaded screw the only thing holding the fork in place is at the indicator section triple tree. you loosen that a couple of turns and the fork will almost slide out so...hold onto it!
now back to mine. I removed the right fork and took it inside to undo. surprisingly I undid it very easy
now the downside is I only drained out 4.5 fluid ounces or roughly 135 mils so I am 60 miles off target. hopefully this is the issue with the rough front end ride
now I have to pull the other as I am not sure which direction that plastic spacer above the spring goes.
I also hope the other leg is easy to undo too ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PJCKjdM/DSC00666.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Jtm4nY1G)
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threaded cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7GGzM9p/DSC00670.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXJ9PqSP)
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threaded cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5ZvkdXM/DSC00668.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7GJg54jz)
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My plastic spacers were fitted with the open end up, towards the screw in cap.
Here is a pic of the top end of the damper rod showing the hex you need to hold if the rod turns when undoing the bottom hex screw.
Only if you are going to split the forks.
(https://image.ibb.co/mWCZTp/Pics_Art_10_11_11_55_59.jpg)
Just of interest, I measured the oil level with 195mls added.
No spring, fork fully compressed, 270mm from top of fork to the oil.
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Thanks very much for the pics. They certainly tell the story. I didn't expect to see the flats on the cap diameter. I suppose a large adjustable spanner is the tool of choice to remove it eh? Regards, Kevin Daly
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That was fantastic, thanks Mr Ducati!
9fingers
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Couldn't the oil just be sucked out with a hand held suction pump? ???
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Hey wildbill, Thanks again for the fork tube end cap pics. They were of great value. I see you're well into the task at hand and I wish you luck. It appears from you prior posts that you intend to refill with 195ml of oil per fork leg. Some are using 10W and others 15w. Which will you use? When I'm eventually able to do this job I'm leaning more likely towards 10w but remain open-minded. Please share your detailed results when everything is buttoned back up. I hope you realize a tremendous improvement in your suspension for your efforts. Thank you very much. Regards, Kevin Daly
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And one final question to the experienced panel as I continue to gather data in anticipation of eventually tackling this job. I plan to only drain and refill the fork legs rather than a complete disassemble, reassemble and fill. I have read that it's important to be sure that any sediment or sludge is removed prior to refill. Can anyone recommend a product or method for effectively flushing the fork's internals? Fresh oil and pumping the forks or perhaps another product and method? Thank you all very much. Regards, Kevin Daly
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When I drained my forks they appeared to be filled with the recommended 10w-30 motor oil. Since it seemed to be working fairly well as a damping fluid in my 2011 B5's forks, I decided not to increase the viscosity, but instead just used 200cc of a quality name-brand fork oil. Since the oil that came out of the forks didn't look too bad for having been in there for over 7 years and there was no crud or metal particles that ended up in the drain pan, I decided not to flush the forks and just dumped in new oil after letting the forks drain for about 15 minutes and wiping oil off of the fork springs. However, if I was going to flush the forks with something I would have used kerosene, which I believe is referred to as "paraffin" in some parts of the world. ???
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Thanks for sharing. My forks will probably be relatively clean enough as well. I'm probably overthinking things once again.
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ive had several attempts to get my review on the oil change in by keep getting an error meassage
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In the past I've tried to cut and paste into this forum from other software and although it will allow the selected text to be pasted into the primary field it will now actually post it ans I got an error suggestion I contact the forum administrator. Very frustrating. In the end I had to completely retype it all over directly into the forum window then it worked. Perhaps there's a trick to it. Good luck.
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the results being pretty detailed and POSITIVE!
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I get that error message every time I try to cut and paste a joke of more than a couple of lines of text in the joke thread. It seems to have something to do with the number of characters that I try to post in my reply, as shorter jokes seem to be accepted. Apparently, the forum brain cell seems to be living by some sort of rules that we do not yet understand. But I do get the impression that it is not happy with the cut-and-paste operation. ::)
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well lets be honest then...the new format stinks!...LOl
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To a mere forum member and not a web-site/forum expert, it seemed to me that the old forum wasn't broken, so why fix it (and ACTUALLY break it)?
A.
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quick summary
first thanks to all who played an input in the fork oil change.
I had no trouble getting both fork caps undone. neither were on actually tight at all
I checked my manual and it listed 200 mils per fork.
I decided to go 190 mils per fork just in case I still had residue inside the forks. although I did pump them several times......and the forks too!...LOL
a 10 mile test run resulted in a very good ride quality and it handled all the bumps with ease. I could actually sit on the seat and ride some rather than stand on the pegs.
overall I was well worth doing and I actually saved $$$ doing it ;) pretty bad really when you buy something new and its not up to standard on very poor attention to detail OR lets put in 140mil and save the 50 mils for another bike.
overall very happy with end results and in my case as I had a bad riding bike...its been highly successful venture.
if it hadn't i'd just tell you now - I wasted my time...but not the case here!
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Glad you got it sorted WildBill! So, you had 140 mil in each fork, or were there different amounts in each one? ??? Did it seem to be decent oil, or some unidentifiable goo? I've read that the older ones came with all sorts of sludge. :o
If I am reading right, you just pumped them out too... Seems sensible to me unless you need to do deep cleaning or replace seals. :) I'll have to have a look into my '15 C5 one of these days too just to see what's in there! ??? Hopefully, not too much of an echo!
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Thanks to all from Ducati Scotty on down in making this discussion so rich in detail and collective experience. All have added value, clarity and confidence in tackling this once mystical shock maintenance. For some time now I have been following and learning from Mr. Monu Sagar on You Tube. This gentle Indian man is a Royal Enfield Guru, and despite his videos being in Hindi more often than not I can clearly understand his intent. He is a born teacher. I have attached a link to a related video that compliments this discussion nicely and I'm hopeful that you'll find value in this as well as his other videos. Check out and subscribe if you like. Regards, Kevin Daly
Note the offset lower axles and the straight fork style fork tube caps. Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/JstpgCeX2eI
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Nice video.????
Confirmed my suspicion that there are NO fork bushes in the older leading axle forks.
On my 2015 straight forks you cannot just slide the stanchion out of bottom leg.
The bush on the bottom of the stanchion is a larger outer diameter than the inner diameter of the top bush.
You have use the bottom of the fork leg like a slide hammer to knock out the top bush and fork seal.
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narada
yes I got out 140 miles per fork and put back in 190mils per fork
drained the fork then pumped it out several times and let it sit upside down for half an hour or more.
oil was just a highly smelly dirty black looking stuff. wife was first to complain about that on my clothes...lol
that cap which has created removal problems for most was no drama for me. not even tight! very east to undo.
in my case that was the part I was dreading the most.
overall i'd class this fork oil change a very easy thing to do BUT saying that ...I had no trouble with that nut. if I had I might be thinking a whole lot differently.
either way it was well worth the effort and i'd say 2/3 hours to complete the job is a pretty spot on call.
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When I converted to a 7" headlight, I couldn't find an H4 LED bulb that wouldn't hit the speedometer cable so I installed a Hella Amber H4 incandescent. To provide daytime visibility with minimal current draw, I added an LED foglight below the headlight as pictured.
Several times under heavy braking on San Diego's potholed roads, I thought the foglight hit the fender but neither showed signs of contact. So I think the forks were bottoming. While I'm waiting for a replacement engine, I replaced the RE fork oil with Bel Ray 10W in my straight ("inline" per RE terminology) forks.
I greatly benefited from the information provided here, especially the Haggis pictures. Here are my additions:
(1) I couldn't unscrew the fork cap so I used a brass hammer to firmly tap its perimeter. I circled three times. Problem solved. BTW this works for many RE fasteners.
(2) After three turns with the wrench the fork cap unscrewed by hand. Spring tension was low. Assembly was similar after I oiled the threads and O-ring.
(3) The old oil was dark indicating metal wear and sticky so it wasn't engine oil. You have to pump the fork upside down to fully drain it.
(4) I used some detergent and water to remove the remaining oil, rinsed thoroughly including pumping, and dried in the sun for several hours.
(5) Refill was 195ml. I hand-tested the compression damping and I think 15W is in my future since SD roads ain't getting smoother. And maybe a trip to Corona to visit RaceTech (http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/12/Royal%20Enfield/Bullet%20500/2007-17).