[Monkee]

So I can kickstart my C5 pretty reliably cold and on the centerstand (mainstand) but when it comes to kicking over the engine once is warm and when im sitting on it i can't really get it sometimes i can get it to tick over but not as reliably i end up having to put it on the side stand walk over to the other side and kick it then it starts right up.

Im guessing its because im on the shorter side and can't get a full wallop on the kicker.

Do you guys have any tips? I'd put it on the side stand and stand on the pegs but the sidestand doesnt give me much confidence

[Haggis]

Is your electric boot not working?

[SteveThackery]

Forgive me if you know this already, but this is the procedure.

1/ Don't try to kick it when sitting on the seat - stand up on your left leg

Edit: 1a/ Keep the throttle closed, and make sure it's in neutral. Ignition on and the kill-switch in the 'run' position, side stand retracted.

2/ Turn the engine over with the kick-start at a comfortable speed until you feel it come up to compression

3/ Let the kick-start lever return to the top

4/ Slowly push the lever through compression - two or three inches on the lever, maybe - and let it return to the top again

5/ Take a breath, then shift your weight to your right leg and plunge the lever down smoothly and as fast as you can. It should be a combination of your weight plus partially straightening your knee. Make sure your knee is still slightly bent at the bottom of the stroke.

If it's going to start, that should do it.

By positioning the engine at the top of the compression stroke you are giving yourself the longest possible "run up" time before the next compression stroke, which is what you want.

A couple more points: firstly, you could try cracking the throttle open a little bit to help the engine catch. Try it with a closed throttle first because that's how it normally starts. Secondly, some people advocate freeing up the clutch before plunging the kick-start lever. To do this, just before step 5/, pull in the clutch and push the kick-start lever right through a couple of strokes. Then release the lever and proceed to step 5/.

[Richard230]

It sure is a lot easier just pushing a button.   

[lou e]

Until you need to do it then prior planning and practice beats learning
 how while drunk in the dark (don't ask me how I know this)...1966 interceptor custom 2019 int 650

[bthtony55?]

Because it has an auto valve lifter you could, if your brave, almost start it with your hand. Just push the button mate.

[gizzo]

When I kick start mine, it's always standing on the kick starter side. I can't get a good swing at it sitting onboard like on a more normal motorbike.

[SteveThackery]

When I kick start mine, it's always standing on the kick starter side. I can't get a good swing at it sitting onboard like on a more normal motorbike.

A more normal motorbike? What normal motorbike even has a kickstart?

[gizzo]

A more normal motorbike? What normal motorbike even has a kickstart?

More normal bikes that I can kick start while I'm sitting on them. My Drz400, dr250, c90 for example. RE is special.lol..

[axman88]

Forgive me if you know this already, but this is the procedure.

1/ Don't try to kick it when sitting on the seat - stand up on your left leg

Edit: 1a/ Keep the throttle closed, and make sure it's in neutral. Ignition on and the kill-switch in the 'run' position, side stand retracted.

2/ Turn the engine over with the kick-start at a comfortable speed until you feel it come up to compression

3/ Let the kick-start lever return to the top

4/ Slowly push the lever through compression - two or three inches on the lever, maybe - and let it return to the top again

5/ Take a breath, then shift your weight to your right leg and plunge the lever down smoothly and as fast as you can. It should be a combination of your weight plus partially straightening your knee. Make sure your knee is still slightly bent at the bottom of the stroke.

If it's going to start, that should do it.

By positioning the engine at the top of the compression stroke you are giving yourself the longest possible "run up" time before the next compression stroke, which is what you want.

A couple more points: firstly, you could try cracking the throttle open a little bit to help the engine catch. Try it with a closed throttle first because that's how it normally starts. Secondly, some people advocate freeing up the clutch before plunging the kick-start lever. To do this, just before step 5/, pull in the clutch and push the kick-start lever right through a couple of strokes. Then release the lever and proceed to step 5/.

I never did any of "the procedure" with my UCE engined C5.  Just kicked it from wherever rotation position it was at when I walked up.  If it was above 50F, it would start first kick.  If it below 35F, perhaps a 2nd kick would be required.  This is what the auto decompressor cam, and fuel injection, bought us, in my opinion, no process required, kick and start.

Standing and straddling, with the side stand up or down, no process, no problem.  1 kick starter.
Standing on the right side with the bike on the center stand, no process, no problem,  1 kick starter.
But, I'm not small and I'm not short.

The only problem I had was when I wanted to use the electric starter.  My machine had a crappy connection in the clutch switch wiring or connection, and so would generally ignore any button presses unless I fiddled with those wires.  I never got around to fixing it, since it started so easily with the kicker.  Quicker to kick than to fiddle.

I'm sure my riding buddy got tired of my standing joke.  After he got his Sportster running, taking far too many kicks to count, I'd say, "I wonder how many kicks it will take to start the Enfield?   Lets COUNT!"   Then, I'd kick it and say, "One, .... ONE KICK!"

[om15]

Bike on centre stand, side stand up, approach from right hand side of bike, flick down kick start with left foot and bike starts first swing, jump on and ride off.
I used to own a Yamaha XT500, this was the most difficult bike to kick start and often ended in pain when it kicked back, the Bullet is a pussy cat compared to that.

[Richard230]

Bike on centre stand, side stand up, approach from right hand side of bike, flick down kick start with left foot and bike starts first swing, jump on and ride off.
I used to own a Yamaha XT500, this was the most difficult bike to kick start and often ended in pain when it kicked back, the Bullet is a pussy cat compared to that.

I used to own a 1977 Yamaha SR500 and it was an easy first kick starter, hot or cold - unless it was only partly warmed up and had stalled out at an intersection. If that happened the engine would flood a bit and it would take several kicks with the throttle opened to clear it out before it would start again.

[SteveThackery]

Bike on centre stand, side stand up, approach from right hand side of bike, flick down kick start with left foot and bike starts first swing, jump on and ride off.

The OP was asking about kickstarting when astride the bike.

[om15]

Do you guys have any tips? I'd put it on the side stand and stand on the pegs but the sidestand doesnt give me much confidence

I thought that the OP was asking for alternate ideas. You can't kickstart a Bullet if the side stand is down, which is why I recommended using the centre stand, I hope that the OP finds it helpful.

[SteveThackery]

So I can kickstart my C5 pretty reliably cold and on the centerstand (mainstand) but when it comes to kicking over the engine once is warm and when im sitting on it i can't really get it...

Good point about the sidestand being down! 😁

[Monkee]

Is your electric boot not working?

The electric boot is fine its just the battery is a little week haven't gotten around to changing it. plus the manual boot is fun

[Monkee]

I thought that the OP was asking for alternate ideas. You can't kickstart a Bullet if the side stand is down, which is why I recommended using the centre stand, I hope that the OP finds it helpful.

the sidestand switch on mine is either bypassed or nonexistent bike doesnt shut off with the side stand out. (dont ask me how i know)

I'm asking about kicking it when for example you stall it for some reason and dont want to have to get off the bike and walk to the right hand side

[Monkee]

Good point about the sidestand being down! 😁

thats the funny part. i can kick it over on either side stand or center stand. i just can't get that 100% reliability when im sitting on the damn thing.

[SteveThackery]

thats the funny part. i can kick it over on either side stand or center stand. i just can't get that 100% reliability when im sitting on the damn thing.

Did you read my procedure up near the beginning?

[Monkee]

Did you read my procedure up near the beginning?

I did!

I do all that particularly with clod starting. all except pushing a little bit past compression. usually on the mainstand when i feel compression i give it a good kick and it starts right up. that may be the missing bit

[SteveThackery]

I do all that particularly with clod starting. all except pushing a little bit past compression. usually on the mainstand when i feel compression i give it a good kick and it starts right up. that may be the missing bit

To be honest the automatic decompressor means you can get away without positioning the engine just past the compression stroke. Having said that, you can still get a faster spin on the engine that way if it doesn't always start easily.

[axman88]

As I said earlier, my '12 C5 was a one kick starter.  There were just three things that caused harder, (but still quite good compared to carb'd machines) starting.
    - If the bike sat too long outdoors, and the fuel turned bad.
    - If it was very very cold, well below freezing.
    - If the spark plug had gotten fouled.  This happened regularly, I assume due to my stop and go commuter usage, along with the reported generally richer map and open loop 02 sensor at low rpms / throttle openings.  Towards the end of my riding that machine, I switched to a hotter plug, however that machine's engine would also tend to ping at high speed/high load, so it was a bit of a balancing act.   I always carried a spare plug.  Single plug singles are very dependent on that component.

[Baron Von Bullet]

Kick starting while the bike is on the sidestand will damage the sidestand pivot, this will be a difficult/costly repair.

[SteveThackery]

Kick starting while the bike is on the sidestand will damage the sidestand pivot, this will be a difficult/costly repair.

Especially as you'll be kicking it all day and all night. It won't start when the sidestand is extended.

[Richard230]

Especially as you'll be kicking it all day and all night. It won't start when the sidestand is extended.

I never had any problem kick starting my California model 2011 Bullet when it was on its side stand.

[axman88]

I never had any problem kick starting my California model 2011 Bullet when it was on its side stand.

Yeah, I was thinking that I remembered this also, and already said as much.  But, mine has been a basket case for a while, and I don't quite recall.

I will say this:   If one looks at the diagram on page 72 of the 2012 Classic 500 owner's manual, they will see that the activating coil of the Power Relay goes straight to ground, not daisy chained through a Sidestand Relay like is shown on schematics for the later models.    https://www.slideshare.net/akhtarwasi/classic-500-owners-manual-feb-2012.  It makes me wonder if my machine was even equipped with a Sidestand Switch?  That also is not shown on the diagram.

We often make the mistake of assuming everybody else's machine is built like ours, but perhaps they weren't and aren't?   For one thing, here in the USA, no moto manufacturer really NEEDED to get beyond Euro III equivalency.  I think emissions standards for motorcycles haven't changed since 2010.  Of course, most built the same bikes for us as they were building for the rest of the world, but not always.  There are still a few road bikes with carbs being sold into the USA, meeting standards.

[Monkee]

Especially as you'll be kicking it all day and all night. It won't start when the sidestand is extended.

I've been able to kickstart it on its side stand once while i was on it and the other time when i was standing next to it

[Monkee]

Just to reinterate.

I am able to 100% kick start the bike regardless of whether its on its centerstand or side stand as long as im not sitting on it.

now when say i'm already sitting on it with the stands both up ignition on, Engine kill switch on the on position, after the system has primed (typically when the engine is already hot/warm) I have trouble kicking it when I am sat on the motorcycle. I'm thinking its because i dont have as much leverage on the kicker or am not able to follow through

[Silverback]

i often have same issue while sitting on the bike.  i agree it must be a leverage thing.  i have just resolved to put it on the center stand , stand next to the bike and kick it over.  its much easier and less frustrating.

first thing i did was take off the side stand switch.

[SteveThackery]

I will say this:   If one looks at the diagram on page 72 of the 2012 Classic 500 owner's manual, they will see that the activating coil of the Power Relay goes straight to ground, not daisy chained through a Sidestand Relay like is shown on schematics for the later models.   

Ah, thank you! You are absolutely right - that wiring diagram shows no sidestand switch. I'm sorry for my misleading comment.

However, there is something odd going on. It shows two spark plugs, and to the very best of my knowledge, all the ones imported into my country (UK) at least had only one spark plug. I also think they always had a sidestand switch.

I've owned all three generations of the Bullet (iron barrel, AVL, UCE) and they definitely all had only  one plug, and a sidestand switch.

Clearly there are minor differences, presumably depending on which country they are being sold in.

[Handirifle]

About 15 years ago, I had a Honda XL600R, it was kick start only. Sometimes it started first kick, sometimes on the 40th.  When I rode it to town for parts one summer day, it chose to stall at a light.  About 40 kicks later it started.  I sold it a week after that, and swore I would never buy another kick start bike again.  I haven't.

I have always started NORMAL kick start bikes, by cycling the kickstart lever to get the piston at just the start of compression cycle, and then standing up on left foot peg (I am 5'6" also) and giving it the full long kick.  That always worked on normal bikes.

Check the spark plug, wires and fuel delivery.  If the plug shows lean or rich, correct that issues, and it might solve the kick start issues as well.  Can also experiment with different heat ranges of spark plugs.  I have seen some machines that like colder or hotter than called for from OEM.

[SteveThackery]

I have always started NORMAL kick start bikes, by cycling the kickstart lever to get the piston at just the start of compression cycle, and then standing up on left foot peg (I am 5'6" also) and giving it the full long kick.  That always worked on normal bikes.

The only detail where we differ is that I then ease it through the compression stroke first, before going for the full long kick.

[axman88]

However, there is something odd going on. It shows two spark plugs, and to the very best of my knowledge, all the ones imported into my country (UK) at least had only one spark plug. I also think they always had a sidestand switch.

I've owned all three generations of the Bullet (iron barrel, AVL, UCE) and they definitely all had only  one plug, and a sidestand switch.

Clearly there are minor differences, presumably depending on which country they are being sold in.

There is certainly something going on.  We have three members weighing in saying they CAN kick start THEIR machines with the side stand down, (two of those were '11 builds, the other unknown).  And, we have a couple more saying they disconnected or bypassed their sidestand switch.  And we have a couple members saying nobody will be able to kickstart any UCE with the sidestand down.

I should probably dig through the boxes of parts that contain my '99 Bullet, and my '12 C5 to verify, before I pile on more speculation, but I think the '99 does NOT have one, and the '12 does.  However, it's not so much the presence of a switch that determines whether the bike can be started with the stand down or not, it's HOW the switch is wired.

An electrical design that I have seen perhaps more often than interrupting power to the ignition is to disrupt the primary circuit of the starting relay, generally on the ground side.  Of course, that's usually seen on electric start only machines, and contrived to be functionally in series with the neutral switch.  Another early design just turned on a warning light.   Folks whose machines are fitted ONLY with side stands, which seems to include most of them nowadays, might well want the machine to be able to start and run on the side stand.

It would be nice if RE was more careful about publishing accurate wiring schematics for every variant, but that ship has sailed.   Wading through the wiring diagrams published in my '02 edition P. Snidal Bullet Service Manual, I'm not seeing sidestand switches on ANY of the SIX diagrams.  Indeed, I haven't seen something labeled as, or even looking possibly like, a sidestand switch, showing up on any Bullet / Classic 500 schematic dated earlier than 2014 or so, at which point they are shown as triggering a Sidestand Relay daisy-chained to the Power Relay's primary, as I mentioned in my earlier post.   Of course it could be present and undocumented, or I could be missing it on every drawing.

I wonder, HOW was the switch wired on your various IB, AVL and UCE machines?

[SteveThackery]

What country are you in, axman88?

I think (but don't know for sure) that all bikes sold in the UK must have a sidestand switch.

Traditionally bikes with sidestand switches can be started with the sidestand extended, but they cut out as soon as the bike is put into gear. Both my current bikes work like that. My Enfields were different - they would turn over on the starter but wouldn't fire.

Tomorrow I will dig out the wiring diagram for the UCE Bullet I had and post it. It makes it clear how it is wired up.

[gizzo]

There is certainly something going on.  We have three members weighing in saying they CAN kick start THEIR machines with the side stand down, (two of those were '11 builds, the other unknown).  And, we have a couple more saying they disconnected or bypassed their sidestand switch.  And we have a couple members saying nobody will be able to kickstart any UCE with the sidestand down.

Mine is a '14 CGT and I've eliminated the sidestand switch. Mostly because I like to use the sidestand with the bike running while I open and close the gate. Before that, it wouldn't start with the stand down.

[om15]

My 2015 Bullet will turn on the starter with the side stand down, but won't start as it looks like the fuel pump is wired through the side stand, another thing I have read or heard from somewhere is that it is designed not to run on the side stand because at that bike angle the oil pump can cavitate and not supply oil under pressure to the various oil outlets.

[SteveThackery]

Attached is a document giving the wiring diagram and the circuit diagram (schematic) of the 2011 UCE. I checked, and my 2014 model was identical.  Note, mine was a UK model.

The sidestand switch disconnects the power relay, which switches off the power to the ECU, so no starting or running when the sidestand is down. However, it does not disconnect the starter, so the engine will still turn over.

[Haggis]

Your wiring diagram has been spot on for all my efi since 2014.
Colours occasionally alter in some years but easy to work out.
Thank you.

[Monkee]

What country are you in, axman88?

I think (but don't know for sure) that all bikes sold in the UK must have a sidestand switch.

Traditionally bikes with sidestand switches can be started with the sidestand extended, but they cut out as soon as the bike is put into gear. Both my current bikes work like that. My Enfields were different - they would turn over on the starter but wouldn't fire.

Tomorrow I will dig out the wiring diagram for the UCE Bullet I had and post it. It makes it clear how it is wired up.

As far as sidestand kill switches. all of the doezens of bikes i've ridden of different makes and models they only cut off the engine when the bike is in gear and the side stand is down. When its in neutral it shouldn't matter and should be able to start.

But regardless my sidestand switch (if i have one) is either bypassed or non existent i've accidentally taken off in first gear with the side stand down.

[Monkee]

Also an update:

I had to go do some errands around town and I figured its a nice sunny day to take the c5 out. I think i got the hang of kicking it over astride the bike. The technique is to get as far back on the seat as possible so that the kicker is perpendicular to your knee as possible, then with a little hop give it a wallop (making sure you're at TDC or a little past) and starts right up.

so in conclusion it is a leverage issue me being a little vertically challenged.

[SteveThackery]

As far as sidestand kill switches. all of the doezens of bikes i've ridden of different makes and models they only cut off the engine when the bike is in gear and the side stand is down. When its in neutral it shouldn't matter and should be able to start.

Yes, that's exactly right, but it isn't how RE do it. At least not on the three singles I've owned. They wouldn't start with the sidestand down regardless of what you do with the gears and the clutch. If you would care to look at the wiring diagram you will see exactly why.

[Monkee]

Yes, that's exactly right, but it isn't how RE do it. At least not on the three singles I've owned. They wouldn't start with the sidestand down regardless of what you do with the gears and the clutch. If you would care to look at the wiring diagram you will see exactly why.

It is rather peculiar they would do it like that. im just glad my sidestand switch is non existent. makes it easier to troubleshoot.

[SteveThackery]

It is rather peculiar they would do it like that. im just glad my sidestand switch is non existent. makes it easier to troubleshoot.

It is peculiar. In fact it looks like a bodge, to me. When the sidestand is down it operates a relay which in turn disconnects the power relay. Disconnecting the power relay cuts the power to the ECU. The clutch switch and the neutral switch aren't involved in the circuit.

It's a bodge for two reasons. Firstly, it stops the bike running with the sidestand down, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do and every other bike on the planet* can do it. Secondly, when the sidestand is down the starter will still operate, but the engine won't fire. I don't know of any other bike that lets the starter run when the engine is disabled for any reason - in gear, sidestand down, clutch not pulled, etc.

*I haven't really checked every bike on the planet, but you know what I mean. 

[axman88]

It is peculiar. In fact it looks like a bodge, to me. When the sidestand is down it operates a relay which in turn disconnects the power relay. Disconnecting the power relay cuts the power to the ECU. The clutch switch and the neutral switch aren't involved in the circuit.

I'm in Chicago, IL, USA.

Thanks for posting the wiring diagram for the '11.  This is the circuit design I was referring to, that I had seen on later model diagrams.  I looks like it also interrupts fuel pump power, but the loss of ignition would trump that effect.  It certainly does seem like a bodge to me, for the reasons you cited, but perhaps was a continuation from an earlier implementation, where there was no neutral switch in the system, and ONLY an ignition circuit to interrupt, and nobody bothered to rethink the design.

Speaking of earlier circuit designs, was this the circuit that was used for earlier models?  You mentioned that your IB and AVL also had sidestand switches?  Obviously, those didn't have ECUs, or even ICUs, but one could interrupt power to the ignition system by putting another switch (or better yet, a relay) in series with the kill switch.  I don't remember any relays being on the harness when I tore down my '99 Bullet, not the presence of a sidestand switch, but my memory isn't that great and I did that quite some time ago.  What do you know about those older safety circuits?   I haven't seen anything documented on a wiring diagram from the pre-UCE era.

I'm not surprised that so many riders report defeating that side stand switch function.  Hitchcock's even capitalized on the market, by offering this assembly, for folks who can't sleep nights having a switch that was simply bypassed or removed.  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Side-Stand-Factory/29097
I have to say, calling the assembly "Without Switch Provision" does suggest that there was also a "With Switch" version.

[SteveThackery]

So my AVL definitely worked in the same (wrong) way as the UCE. To be truthful I cannot remember exactly how my iron barrel behaved, but I know it had a sidestand switch. I strongly suspect that sidestand switches have been mandatory in the UK for decades. The only bike I can remember not having a sidestand switch was my 1978 Commando, and I'm only 90% certain about that.

[Monkee]

I can confirm i have no sidestand switch. I only have two relays in the side box. Fuel pump and signals. looking around the sidestand there is no switch or wires going down there.

[axman88]

So my AVL definitely worked in the same (wrong) way as the UCE. To be truthful I cannot remember exactly how my iron barrel behaved, but I know it had a sidestand switch. I strongly suspect that sidestand switches have been mandatory in the UK for decades.

I see that we have another forum member who seems to be describing yet another alternative side stand switch behavior with their 2010 C5:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=36585.msg473090#msg473090 

It's interesting that it's called a "RELAY HARNESS ADD ON - SIDE STAND, UP TO 2013"
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/20760?qty=1&continue_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com%2Fpartsbook-pages%2F2100

I see that RE also changed the switch P/N between Jan and Feb of 2013.  Looks like it was just the connector that changed.  https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbook-pages/5070#page-5070-position-26

I'm starting to think there were at least three different builds.
   -  No switch at all
   -  Switch inhibits starter motor, but not ignition
   -  Switch inhibits ICU, but not starter motor

I apologize for not being able to contribute anything beyond speculation, but, when I get around to rebuilding my basket cases, I promise to document the circuits on my NA export bikes.

[SteveThackery]

   -  Switch inhibits starter motor, but not ignition

Where's the evidence for that middle one? I don't recall it coming up in the discussion so far.

[Monkee]

Where's the evidence for that middle one? I don't recall it coming up in the discussion so far.

I think from the other thread where the OP was having starting issues.

[SteveThackery]

I think from the other thread where the OP was having starting issues.

Oh yes, found it. Thanks.

[Morgan65]

Forgive me if you know this already, but this is the procedure.

1/ Don't try to kick it when sitting on the seat - stand up on your left leg

Edit: 1a/ Keep the throttle closed, and make sure it's in neutral. Ignition on and the kill-switch in the 'run' position, side stand retracted.

2/ Turn the engine over with the kick-start at a comfortable speed until you feel it come up to compression

3/ Let the kick-start lever return to the top

4/ Slowly push the lever through compression - two or three inches on the lever, maybe - and let it return to the top again

5/ Take a breath, then shift your weight to your right leg and plunge the lever down smoothly and as fast as you can. It should be a combination of your weight plus partially straightening your knee. Make sure your knee is still slightly bent at the bottom of the stroke.

If it's going to start, that should do it.

By positioning the engine at the top of the compression stroke you are giving yourself the longest possible "run up" time before the next compression stroke, which is what you want.

A couple more points: firstly, you could try cracking the throttle open a little bit to help the engine catch. Try it with a closed throttle first because that's how it normally starts. Secondly, some people advocate freeing up the clutch before plunging the kick-start lever. To do this, just before step 5/, pull in the clutch and push the kick-start lever right through a couple of strokes. Then release the lever and proceed to step 5/.

Plus one.
This is how I do it. 

[MowgliB5]

Tried kick starting mine for a nostalgia trip the other day and it started from cold so easy on first kick!!!!

Pressing the button is still easier though!!!!