[axman88]

I've got a lot of tools, including a variety of test lights and meters, but one area my collection was deficient in, was equipment suitable for measuring and testing modern EFI systems.

So recently, I added a Hantek 1008C, which is a modestly priced USB Oscilloscope. 
     http://hantek.com.cn/products/detail/13170

For around $80, I received a slightly used 8 channel O-scope with modest specs.  It proved very easy to download and install the software on an old Win 7 mini-desktop that I salvaged from the computer graveyard, and I added a $10 VGA monitor from a junk store.  Because all the processing is done in the 1008C, a high performing computer isn't needed, it's basically there for the display and to eliminate all the switches and buttons that add cost to a conventional O-Scope.  My Hantek came with various probes, including a capacitive probe that clamps direct to a high tension spark cable.  What it didn't have was current probe, that lets you measure current without interposing an inline resistance to measure voltage across.

Hantek sells this current probe, and it has good reviews for a $58 item:
             http://hantek.com.cn/products/detail/77

This got me to thinking about alternatives for a DC current probe.  I have a few "Clamp meters", that I use for working on house wiring and machines at work, but these are only for AC.  Where an AC current meter can get away with a simple ferrite ring, measuring DC current requires Hall effect sensors and buffer circuits.  Since I have no straightforward and easy way of measuring DC current, especially large ( >10 A) DC currents, I decided I should add a handheld meter that was capable of this task.

Be careful if you decide to shop for one of these DC current clamp meters, most have siblings that look identical, but without the Hall Effect sensor, which renders them cheaper, but able to measure only AC current with the clamp.  But, because they can still measure DC voltage, the ad copy can be misleading.  Shop carefully!

The Habotest HT-206D is about the cheapest Hall effect Clamp meter that I found, that inspired some amount of trust.
      http://www.habo-test.com/sale-11356939-ht206d-ac-dc-digital-clamp-meter-current-voltage-resistance-continuity-ncv.html

This gadget will measure up to 600A of AC or DC current and do quite a few other tricks besides, and can be purchased for less than $40. 

But for just a few dollars more, I found various meters made by UNI-T.  Various of these meters have been reviewed by parties online, including electrical engineering types, and they all seem to be saying good things about the UNI-T meters.

The UT 204+ can measure up to 600A AC or DC and can also measure frequency and temperature.  It comes with a thermocouple capable of measuring up to 1000 deg C.
         https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/NewProducts/UT200_NEW/UT204+.html

600 A DC means one could directly measure current draw of a full sized car or truck starter.  For motorcycle work, a considerably lower max. value should be fine, and a meter with a smaller physical size is more likely to be in my pack when I'm far from home.

I think I'm going with this UNI-T UT 210D.
         https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/General_Meters/digitalclampmeters/UT210_Series/UT210D.html

600V DC or AC measurement, 200A DC or AC, Also measures Resistance, Temperature, and Frequency and even does Non-Contact AC voltage detection.  Uses two AAA batteries instead of a 9V, and fits into my size XL palm.  Should be a nice piece of kit!

What do you guys think?  What do you use for diagnosing your moto electronics?

[Toni59]

I am a Newbie in this matter but interested in what you could see or analyze with your Hantek 1008 C.

For what do you need this equipment?

Thanks for explanation.

Regards
Toni

[axman88]

With the ever increasing complexity of automotive control systems, the ability to "see" the signals from various electrical and electronic components is a useful, and sometimes essential ability.  Ahough there are often other ways of testing systems and components, using an oscilloscope can get the essential information more specifically and more quickly, provided the user has the knowledge to use it.

For example:
     -  Test the relative compression of ALL cylinders of a multi-cylinder engine at the same time, by monitoring the current of the starter motor referenced.  See immediately which cylinder(s) are higher or lower.
     -  Test the entire ignition system by monitoring the high energy pulse.  See anomalies that indicate problems with coil, spark plug, high tension leads, etc.
     -  Test sensors and actuators, like Throttle position sensor.  Intermittent signal issues that may be very difficult to detect with a voltmeter, are much easier to see with a oscilloscope.

For sensors and devices that use high speed, high frequency, or short duration waveforms, the oscilloscope becomes even more important.
      -  The period that a fuel injector is open is a matter of milliseconds.  This just can't be measured with a voltmeter.  With an oscilloscope, an injector can be tested for correct operating parameters without removing it from the vehicle.  Common problems, like sticking can be "seen" via the waveform.
      -   With a multi-channel scope the signal from one device can be superimposed over another, so for example, one can see how the ignition timing and injector pulse width may be varying based on the signal from the crankshaft sensor, a useful diagnostic technique.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg.

The Hantek 1008 is tailored to automotive use, and includes in its software, setup and testing information to allow a less experienced user to get useful results.  Most test setups include a reference waveform that can be compared to the user's results to guide diagnosis.  It's not the highest specification device, nor the most robust, but its low price and the helpful automotive related setups make it quite attractive to a lot of amateur and professional users.

[Toni59]

@axman88:

Thanks for the interesting insight

That sounds very exciting :-)

But if you see the waveform, how do you know it is right or wrong - or at least within it‘s intended limits?

I guess there is no good/bad picture provided by the manufacturer, am I right?

Regards

Toni

[mrunderhill1975a]

@Axmann88,
I find your descriptions very interesting.  I have watched a few Tube vids from South Main Auto, and Scanner Danner using various tools.  Some of it I understand, most not.  If you have a chance to use your new tools, please make a photo or video record along with a description of tool use.  Working on a relatively simple RE motorcycle using these tools would be a great way to understand what these tools do.

[zimmemr]

 I'm a retired truck/heavy equipment mechanic that worked for one of the countries largest electric utilities. I always liked Fluke, although that UNI -T meter looks pretty interesting. To be in honest in our shop, where cost was no object most of our diagnostic work was performed using either a commercially available scan tool, OTC, Snap-on etc, basically we'd buy a few dozen of them from whoever gave us the best deal and distribute one to every garage. Big trucks don't use OBD11, they use a different protocol all together so we'd use a lap top equipped with OEM software to read codes, program ECU's and so forth for those. FWIW few of the companies even included a compression test anymore. If you have a dead hole and it's not electronic, you're going in deep anyway, and the factories want to use an old fashioned mechanical compression tester, at least IHC does. That may have changed sine I retired though.

For home use I don't think you need to go to crazy, I've got a couple of different scan tools for my Jeeps, mostly so I can clear codes and diagnose common problems. For the bike I just use a nice digital VOM. In my experience most motorcycle problems aren't subtle enough to require expensive or very sophisticated diagnostic equipment, at least not for most repairs, though a code reader would be handy to have, but I applaud anyone that wants to take it to the next level.

[viczena]

For modern motorcycle maintenance you should have 3 devices
1. An OBD scanner. To read out and cancel error codes. Sometimes it allows you to inspect the state of the sensors. The more expensive ones allow you to reset and bleed the ABS.
https://www.g-homeserver.com/forum/royal-enfield-500-trials/381-obd-diagnoseger-t-fehlercodes
2. A good multimeter. Voltage and resistance are the most used areas. Have several sets of cables with different clamps/pliers.
3. An Ammeter with mAmp range. The type with a plier. So you can follow current leaks which will drain your battery.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00RGL98E0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have never used an Oszilliscope on the bike. Though I have several (bikes and oszis). If you really want/need to use an O-Scope on the EFI, you would also need a patch panel, which is connected between the EFi and the connector. It presents all line with an open connector, so you can plug your O-Scope lines onto them.

These patch panels are expensive, only usable for one type of EFi and not easy to get.

[axman88]

For modern motorcycle maintenance you should have 3 devices
1. An OBD scanner. To read out and cancel error codes.

I don't think OBDII scanners are compatible with the Keihin ECU used on the UCE machines.  Even if you found or made an adaptor to convert the K-line connector to a 16 pin connector, you will find that the data buss isn't using any standard OBD2 protocol.  Perhaps the Bosch ECUs are more compliant?

2. A good multimeter. Voltage and resistance are the most used areas. Have several sets of cables with different clamps/pliers.
3. An Ammeter with mAmp range. The type with a plier. So you can follow current leaks which will drain your battery.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00RGL98E0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I think that the UNI-T UT 210-D that I recommended  https://www.uni-trend.com/html/product/General_Meters/digitalclampmeters/UT210_Series/UT210D.html  does all these jobs admirably.  It has a clamp meter that measures up to 200A using the clamp, yet has quite good resolution through the wire leads.  It is about the same physical size as the Benning you recommended, but only 1/10 of the cost.

I have never used an Oszilliscope on the bike. Though I have several (bikes and oszis). If you really want/need to use an O-Scope on the EFI, you would also need a patch panel, which is connected between the EFi and the connector. It presents all line with an open connector, so you can plug your O-Scope lines onto them.

These patch panels are expensive, only usable for one type of EFi and not easy to get.

Old school methods still work, for the most part, especially on old school machines, but I think that the O-scope lets you find issues faster and see subtleties you might miss otherwise.  For example, a voltmeter is useless in seeing  the very short duration signals that drive a fuel injector,  so you are stuck with parts swapping, while an O-scope lets you see exactly what the solenoid is doing during it's 4 milliseconds of on time.  Similarly, there is a lot that can be diagnosed about an engine by seeing the shape of the spark discharge pulse, and comparing one cylinder to another, which is not possible using the tools you listed.  This is why O-scopes started appearing in mechanics shops well before EFI was in common use.  A multi-trace scope, like the Hantek I mentioned, also lets you compare inputs with outputs, for example, monitoring an injector pulse output based on a TPS or EOT input.

I don't need a patch panel.  Every sensor and every actuator has it's own connector, to allow replacement, and that's where I prefer to clip in, rather than at the ECU.

I use:
- An inductive pickup for the spark plugs. ( $15) https://www.ebay.com/itm/HT25-HANTEK-Secondary-Ignition-Capacitive-Auto-Pickup-Probe-USA-SELLER-/363103219837?hash=item548aa3707d, a
- A amp/volt conversion clamp for diagnosing high current issues.  ($35)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/allsun-400A-DC-AC-rms-Current-Probe-Handheld-AC-DC-Clamp-Meter-50Hz-60Hz-CAT-III/254133930169
- A cheap set of probes to backprobe the connectors of sensors and actuators.  ($7)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-HT307-Acupuncture-Back-Test-Probe-Pins-Screw-Auto-Diagnostic-Test-5-color/113328425261   
-  Alternately, this type of insulation piercing clip can be used anywhere ($19)  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Test-clip-set-insulation-piercing-red-black-banana-alligator-clip-test-leads/291455761952

Another neat feature of the Hantek, and many digital O-scopes, is the ability to save and store waveforms.  One can sample the signals of various components when the machine is running great, and store them for retrieval and comparison at a later date, when something has gone amiss.

Certainly people can ride and repair their machines without using the latest tools, but with O-scopes being available quite inexpensively now, ( I got my Hantek for $80, which is about the cost of a RE fuel injector) one might pay for the tool in just one machine fixed without the need to purchase and swap out components.

[viczena]

1. In my link you will wind a cheap OBD Scanner for the UCE Bikes
2. If you plug off the sensors, you cannot measure correctly. You end up with patch cables or even holding the probe by hand. That does not give you any decent measurement. This kind of measurements only make sense if you do them in a running environment.
An it is not a problem of the O-scope.

Inductive Pickup for Spark plugs ? Useless. You need a resistor device to simulate the plug and then you can measure your coil under load.
High amp current? Quite useless. The starter motor either turns or it doesnt.
Cheap set of probes? Speaks for itself
Insulation piercing clips? Speaks for itself.

[axman88]

1. In my link you will wind a cheap OBD Scanner for the UCE Bikes
2. If you plug off the sensors, you cannot measure correctly. You end up with patch cables or even holding the probe by hand. That does not give you any decent measurement. This kind of measurements only make sense if you do them in a running environment.
An it is not a problem of the O-scope.

Inductive Pickup for Spark plugs ? Useless. You need a resistor device to simulate the plug and then you can measure your coil under load.
High amp current? Quite useless. The starter motor either turns or it doesnt.
Cheap set of probes? Speaks for itself
Insulation piercing clips? Speaks for itself.

My machine is a 2012, the OBD reading device you linked to does look useful for 2018 and later though.  Thanks for posting that link.  I could see this device being faster for reading codes than counting MIL blinks.  I'd be happier if there was a device available that would translate whatever protocol is used for Buss communication to standard OBDII protocol, so I could hook up my existing OBDII reader, rather than collect yet another reader that can only be used on a single machine.

Right, sorry, I meant a CAPACITIVE pickup for clipping to the spark plug high tension wire, not inductive.  It does seem to work adequately.

I've encountered situations where a starter motor turns, but due to increased resistance in the circuit, draws battery voltage down to a point where there's not enough energy to provide a good spark.   The starter motor turns, but the engine won't start.  As you suggest, diagnosing this fault wouldn't require a clamp probe and it's not very useful for most motorcycle work, although possibly would be helpful when working with PWM or brushless DC motors?   I bought mine because I also occasionally repair industrial equipment for my employer and it can also be attached to a VOM to read higher DC current than I had the ability to read with my UT 210-D clamp meter.

Back probing works fine, and lots of mechanics do this in automotive work.  A back probe with a little electrical tape to secure it seems to work well, and is secure enough for my purposes.  The Hantek is only a 2.4MSa/sec scope, and only capable of 250Khz (optimistic) and downward.  The leads provided with the Hantek are quite crude, just a couple of alligator clip leads terminated with a BNC connector:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-BNC-Male-Q9-to-Dual-Alligator-Clip-Oscilloscope-Test-Probe-Cable-New-US-Ship/173325524904
If you are thinking good practice for MHz signals is required for auto work, this doesn't seem to be the case.   Adding capacitance to the lead and dropping 10 milliseconds of signal here and there, really doesn't change the situation, in my opinion.  We aren't talking about signals in the MHz range or CAN logic signals.  The automotive type O-scope is admittedly more useful for "shape of the waveform" or timing diagnosis, vs accurate level measurements.  One would still want a decently accurate voltmeter.

I've never heard of an auto mechanic insisting that a breakout box be used.  Perhaps these are used by engineers developing the ECUs?  Auto mechanics demonstrating diagnostic techniques on automobiles in videos and so forth, all seem to use back probing. 

What does "insulation piercing" say, other than it pierces the insulation to contact the wire?

If you don't accept back probing, or insulation piercing, how do you use a your voltmeter?

You said you have never tried using an O-Scope on a motorcycle, yet you dismiss its usefulness.  It's a tool that thousands of mechanics do find useful, and companies like Hantek and Pico offer a full line of products for.

[viczena]

Voltage measurements are mostly at open connectors to test, if the right voltage arrives.
One exception is TPS voltage. You get contact by using needle connectors from behind the connector.
You also use a voltmeter at the battery to measure how far down the voltage breaks when you start. It is a good indicator of your battery health.
I use insulation piercing probes only, when nothing else ist possible.
A patch pad is standard equipment for certified dealer workshops. Not for Royal Enfield, but for example for Harley. The whole electric repair manual is based on this patch panel. With a patch panel you can make several measurements at once. Observe how the sensors react. If you have a multichannel O-Scope, it is easy to watch. But if you got an elaborated OBD Scanner, you can watch without any hassle. With a user friendly interface. And even record while you drive.

If you have a 6-connector Sumitomo plug nearby your EFI, the OBD Reader should work. It is the same EFI. With the same communication protocol. The Enfield EFi is a quite simple design.

[zimmemr]

Deleted by author

[Bilgemaster]

Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!

[tooseevee]

Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!

         I think you probably know this already, but dwell is pretty simple really. It's just the time that the points allow for the coil to be recharged after firing the plug(s).

[zimmemr]

Sometimes I just stare at my Dad's old '50s or '60s "Dwell Meter" in the garage and ponder just what it might have been used for. Sure, I could just Google it, I suppose. But then where's the fun in that? For surely I dwell in the house of The Lord! Or my points are oily or I have split ends or visible panty lines, or something...As a dumbass who understands little of that meter or this thread the possibilities are endless!

Just before I retired I asked a mechanic who'd worked for me for maybe 15 years, to grab something out of my tool box, he did, but also came back with my Tach/Dwell meter wearing a puzzled look on his face. He asked me what the odd meter he'd found in there was used for as he'd never seen one. FYI Our shop was primarily a diesel/heavy equipment repair facility.

 I explained what the Dwell meter did, and knowing he'd graduated from our local tech schools automotive program (4 years work/study) asked him if they hadn't covered dwell and point gap in class. He looked at me with another puzzled look and said "I graduated in 1986, we were never taught anything about points" He did know how to set points, but only from working on older lawn mowers and such. I knew right then and there it was time to start thinking about retiring.