Author Topic: Tubless Tires  (Read 9521 times)

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ATXConti650

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on: April 16, 2020, 02:33:18 am
Rear Tire flat and leaking at the valve stem so removed the wheel to take to dealer since tires are marked tubeless. Several sites online indicated it wasn't recommended to put tubes in tubeless tires. Dealer said they would install a tube since that's what happens with these tires anyway. What? Sounds shifty to me.

Anybody doing this on 650 twins?

1,500+ miles and is running so nice.
2019 Continental GT 650 Black Magic, 1979 Kreidler M19, 1953 Kreidler K50, 2013 Suzuki Savage 650 Single Cylinder Thumper


Roshiba777

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Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 04:55:22 am
These bikes comes with tubeless tyres but have tubes in the tyres
Royal Enfield CI 500 (2000)
Royal Enfield STD UCE 500 (2010)
Royal Enfield Classic 500 (2011)
Royal Enfield Classic Chrome 500 (2011)
Yamaha RD350 (1988)
Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 (2019)


twocoolgliders

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Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 11:19:26 am
"Tubeless" tires can be used with tubes, and / or without tubes....

"Tube type" tires MUST be used with tubes.

When you have spoke type wheels...the rims are not airtight...so tubeless will not work...air will quickly leak out..

With spoke wheels you must use tubes....but tubes can go inside either tube type tire, or tubeless tire.  On solid cast type wheels you typically use tubeless tires....but you could use tubes, especially for to repair a flat, when a tire plug is not available.  Or possibly to remedy a leaking rim seal etc.

Tube type tires are almost impossible to find in the aftermarket, because they are so rare nowadays, and tubeless will work anyway...so why even stock tube type tires?


Cookie







Rear Tire flat and leaking at the valve stem so removed the wheel to take to dealer since tires are marked tubeless. Several sites online indicated it wasn't recommended to put tubes in tubeless tires. Dealer said they would install a tube since that's what happens with these tires anyway. What? Sounds shifty to me.

Anybody doing this on 650 twins?

1,500+ miles and is running so nice.


Richard230

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Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 02:39:47 pm
My son-in-law converted the cast aluminum rear wheel of my daughter's 1981 BMW R65LS to tubeless by sealing the valve hole with a piece of the tube and valve assembly from the old tube.  He glued it in place. The wheels on that bike are not designed to run without tubes, but he didn't see why they couldn't be converted to tubeless using his method since they were cast in one piece.  For some strange reason, it actually worked for a few months and then the tire went flat over night.  When he checked how the wheel was holding air, he found that it was leaking air all around the tire bead.  So much for that experiment.  It seemed like a good idea at the time, I guess.  ;) Now my daughter is thinking of stringing him up by an old inner tube and is glad that she wasn't riding the bike when the tire went flat.   :o
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twocoolgliders

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Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 02:53:43 pm
Technically, the tire bead, and the rim design, is somewhat different for tubeless rims and tubeless tires, compared to tube tires and tube rims.

So as found out below....a rim designed for a tube, may not work as tubeless...because the rims is not designed to have a 100% seal.  (although the tire will basically "fit"...)

But a tubeless rim, will work with a tube, because it doesn't matter if there is a 100% seal at the rim.


So RE with spoke wheels, requires a tube, no matter what tire.....but can use tubeless tires or tube type tires...


Cookie


My son-in-law converted the cast aluminum rear wheel of my daughter's 1981 BMW R65LS to tubeless by sealing the valve hole with a piece of the tube and valve assembly from the old tube.  He glued it in place. The wheels on that bike are not designed to run without tubes, but he didn't see why they couldn't be converted to tubeless using his method since they were cast in one piece.  For some strange reason, it actually worked for a few months and then the tire went flat over night.  When he checked how the wheel was holding air, he found that it was leaking air all around the tire bead.  So much for that experiment.  It seemed like a good idea at the time, I guess.  ;) Now my daughter is thinking of stringing him up by an old inner tube and is glad that she wasn't riding the bike when the tire went flat.   :o


Stanley

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Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 05:17:43 pm
There's a major problem with going tubeless on the tube type rim. A puncture can unseat the bead. With a tube, a cartridge or pump will reseat it after repair, but tubeless takes powerful air to pop into place.
This even happens on converted mtb tires, where tubeless is the norm.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 05:30:44 pm by Stanley »
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ATXConti650

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Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 05:58:48 pm
All good replies ... thanks. Maybe all the online info was related to high performance sport bikes as they often contained comments regarding extra weight and increased heat at high speeds. Does 75 to 80 mph count as high speed? Seems plenty fast enough to me. Might change my mind if riding Interstate 10 out to West Texas where there are miles of converging lines stretching out ahead. Then again, that's a 10 to 12 hour drive in a car with air conditioning. Maybe if I broke it up into shorter hops and back roads with overnight stops. Not sure I am up for looong rides in the elements anymore.

Thanks again for all the replies.
2019 Continental GT 650 Black Magic, 1979 Kreidler M19, 1953 Kreidler K50, 2013 Suzuki Savage 650 Single Cylinder Thumper


twocoolgliders

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Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 07:54:57 pm
You should NOT go tubeless on a tube type rim....the bead and the rim will not necessarily be airtight, and of course air will leak thru the spokes...

You can mount a tubeless tire, with an inner tube, onto a tube type rim, as done on the RE650...because the tube seals in the air, regardless of whether the tire seals to the rim.

To "set" a tubeless motorcycle tire, onto a tubeless rim (with no inner tube)...you don't need a super strong air supply.  I just wrap the tire with a ratchet strap, tighten it down, and it forces the tire bead out against the rim...then just a blast of air, with the valve core removed, will usually pop the tire onto the rim.

Yes, I know that they now have some sort of goop that you use seal the rim..be it bicycle or motorcycle so that you can supposedly mount a tire without and inner tube.   Looks like a cluster f-ck to me...

Yes tube type motorcycle tires run hotter...not good for racing speeds...normal riding not an issue.

Tube tires were the "norm" for decades, (even a century)....they still work just fine in classic bikes, and modern classic style bikes.

Cookie



There's a major problem with going tubeless on the tube type rim. A puncture can unseat the bead. With a tube, a cartridge or pump will reseat it after repair, but tubeless takes powerful air to pop into place.
This even happens on converted mtb tires, where tubeless is the norm.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 02:08:33 am by twocoolgliders »


olhogrider

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Reply #8 on: April 17, 2020, 12:06:09 am
All good replies ... thanks. Maybe all the online info was related to high performance sport bikes as they often contained comments regarding extra weight and increased heat at high speeds. Does 75 to 80 mph count as high speed? Seems plenty fast enough to me. Might change my mind if riding Interstate 10 out to West Texas where there are miles of converging lines stretching out ahead. Then again, that's a 10 to 12 hour drive in a car with air conditioning. Maybe if I broke it up into shorter hops and back roads with overnight stops. Not sure I am up for looong rides in the elements anymore.

Thanks again for all the replies.

You are overthinking it. Your bike is not capable of high speeds. There are several bikes that can do over 200 miles per hour. Those are the ones people are talking about when they say high speed. Just to beat this dead horse one last time. A tubeless tire can be used with a tube. A tube type tire can not be run tubeless.


jimku

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Reply #9 on: April 17, 2020, 02:38:49 am
My answer to this whole mess.  Find alloy tubeless wheels that the RE 650's should have come with in the first place.
And better tires than those el-cheapo "fake" Pirelli Phantoms not made in Germany with far less tread than real Pirelli Phantoms.  I got a set of Avon Roadriders.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 02:44:45 am by jimku »
2019 Interceptor. 
I hope my tubeless wheels make you cringe. 8) https://www.dropbox.com/s/zobmpjq2gqtvypj/RE%20TIRE%20AND%20WHEEL.JPG?dl=0
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GlennF

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Reply #10 on: April 17, 2020, 06:29:09 am
It is worth noting that most retro, spoked wheel, road bikes are done this way, it is not just the Enfields.   For example the Triumph Street Scramblers and the spoked variants of the Guzzi V7 both use tubeless capable tires fitted with tubes.

As far as I know BMW and KTM are the main OEM manufacturers that regularly offer tubeless spoked rims, usually on adventure bikes (with the odd Japanese adventure bike and occasional triumph sneaking in) and you pay a hefty premium for the privilege.  These rims tend to be the reverse of our old school spoked rims with the nipple adjustment at the hub not the rim:

« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:46:26 am by GlennF »


gotbikes

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Reply #11 on: June 17, 2022, 01:36:49 am
These ARE tubeless rims, please get your information correct before posting nonsense!

You can mount a tubeless tire, with an inner tube, onto a tube type rim, as done on the RE650...because the tube seals in the air, regardless of whether the tire seals to the rim.

To "set" a tubeless motorcycle tire, onto a tubeless rim (with no inner tube)...you don't need a super strong air supply.  I just wrap the tire with a ratchet strap, tighten it down, and it forces the tire bead out against the rim...then just a blast of air, with the valve core removed, will usually pop the tire onto the rim.

Yes, I know that they now have some sort of goop that you use seal the rim..be it bicycle or motorcycle so that you can supposedly mount a tire without and inner tube.   Looks like a cluster f-ck to me...

Yes tube type motorcycle tires run hotter...not good for racing speeds...normal riding not an issue.

Tube tires were the "norm" for decades, (even a century)....they still work just fine in classic bikes, and modern classic style bikes.

Cookie
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twocoolgliders

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Reply #12 on: June 17, 2022, 02:24:17 am
First of all....please separate YOUR quotes from my quotes!

Second of all...a rim with spokes (such as RE650) is not tubeless......


Cookie




These ARE tubeless rims, please get your information correct before posting nonsense!




twocoolgliders

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Reply #13 on: June 17, 2022, 02:30:25 am
Here is part of an article written from Revzilla (of course they know nothing about tires and tubes because they are simply one of the largest retailers in the world with a huge staff of highly experienced technicians and experts).

Can you put a tube in a tubeless tire? Can you put a tubeless tire on a tubed wheel?
These are both things you can do, but that doesn't mean it will be easy, advisable or the best solution. If you want to run a particular type of tire on your motorcycle, the easiest way to do that is to pick a motorcycle that designed to do that in the first place. You may also be able to swap wheels, but that can be an expensive and complicated proposition.

If you insist on running a tube in a tubeless tire, the general rule of thumb is to treat the setup as one load rating and one speed rating less than the tubeless tire says it can handle. That's mainly because your tube and tire combination will be creating extra heat, especially the harder you ride.

As for a tubeless tire on a tubed wheel, we won't say it’s impossible, because someone will come along and say they did it successfully, but it's not easy and it's probably not the best way to accomplish whatever it is you're trying to do. You’d have to seal everything up with either some goo or a rubber liner to make the wheel airtight (it probably won't stay airtight). More importantly, the tubeless tire's bead will probably not seat properly and seal on the tube-type wheel's rim. They're not made for each other, after all. In short, it probably won't work and it may be unsafe to try.




fireypete

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Reply #14 on: June 17, 2022, 02:43:04 am
This has been covered before. 
The RE 650 has tubeless capable rims.  Check the Xcell website. Thus the Outex kits. My tyres (OEM) state tubeless OR tubes.  SO as many have done before, consider sealing the rim with any method covered on this forum or even use the Outex kit and happily run tubeless and fix a flat with a simple kit and a few CO2 cylinders. 
So, as tubeless tyres are much more common to find, run a tubeless on your bike with a tube no problemo.
Seal the rim and use a tubeless tyre, no tube no problemo
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