Author Topic: Low priced electric motorcycle? - Sondors Metacycle  (Read 9093 times)

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axman88

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on: February 21, 2021, 06:15:00 am
I mentioned in another thread that my BS alarm goes off with red flags galore, whenever I see a manufacturer promising to sell future products, by taking "deposits" now, especially if the pictures look computer generated, and there are no actual rider reports from the press.

But this new Sondors Metacycle looks like it might be a real thing.   The video and still shots sure look real, and although I can't find any report that a moto writer has ridden the thing, it does look like it is a real thing.  I think there is a good sized transportation / young folks market waiting.  A young work friend of mine is sufficiently convinced to pay the $100 "refundable deposit" to reserve one for himself.  I hope he gets it, I want to ride it.

Looks interesting to me. 
     8-kW rear hub motor
     4-kWh Li-ion battery pack
     130 lb.ft (176 Nm) of peak torque at the wheel
     80 mph (128 km/h) top speed
     80 mile claimed range
     $5000

That could work for me, I have a short commute, ride all week and charge on Sundays.

https://sondorsx.com/pages/metacycle

https://newatlas.com/motorcycles/sondors-metacycle-test-ride-pacific-coast-highway/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BG8fFma6nM


Richard230

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Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 02:04:18 pm
Right now the members of the electric motorcycle forum that I frequent are calling those claims BS. This is especially true as apparently Sondors doesn't have any motorcycles for sale to the public. It looks like they are trolling for investor dollars, as is true of most electric motorcycle startups.  ::)
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axman88

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Reply #2 on: February 24, 2021, 09:05:40 am
Right now the members of the electric motorcycle forum that I frequent are calling those claims BS. This is especially true as apparently Sondors doesn't have any motorcycles for sale to the public. It looks like they are trolling for investor dollars, as is true of most electric motorcycle startups.  ::)
I consider the "prepay for promises", where money is collected from Joe average, to be much more scandalous than convincing some big money investors to part with next years tax write off.  Sondors is asking for $100 deposits, that are advertised as refundable for 90 days, and this is supposed to be for production bikes that will be delivered in Q4 of 2021.  That leaves many months after the buyer loses the possibility of refund, and before any promises are broken. 

However, Sondors is a going concern, that has been selling electric bicycles since Q1 2015, and reportedly has sold at least 50,000 of these.  Seems like they are leveraging existing expertise, and this new Metacycle has a fair amount of similarity to their existing product, which they sell at a competitive price.  https://shop.sondors.com/pages/xs

It also seems in their favor that they are closing out the Q4 '21 deposit roster on Feb '26. ( and opening deposts for Q1 '22)  And it's only a $100 deposit, seems like a scam would be asking for 10 times that much.

None of which speaks to your point, ... that the preliminary specs will not be met.  80 mph from 8kw seems pretty dubious.  I'd have to do more research to comment on the 80 mile range, or whether a 4kW battery seems like it can fit in the space allotted on the prototype.

I understand that Sondors brought his initial product to market via Indiegogo and Kickstarter, and from what little I've read, these seem like well made machines.  https://www.electricbike.com/sondors-fat-2016-review/   Those initial programs asked for a lot more money up front than this Metacycle push, the Indiegogo campaign was especially successful, and it seems Sondors delivered satisfaction.

The more I find out, the more optimistic I am that this electric motorcycle will achieve success.   In the video attached to this article, we can see Storm Sondors talking to Jay Leno while looking at the Metacycle, earlier this month.  https://electrek.co/2021/02/22/jay-leno-checks-out-low-cost-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-in-its-first-public-outing/  Jay is known for being very careful with his money.  I wonder if he is in for $100?


Richard230

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Reply #3 on: February 24, 2021, 02:56:36 pm
I bought my first electric motorcycle in 2009. It was an Electric Motorsport GPR-S which was assembled in Oakland, CA. I can't recall the power of the off-the-shelf motor, but it was 72 volts and the bike had a 3.7kWh battery pack. Its top speed was 65 mph, which it could only maintain for about 10 miles. At 30 mph on level ground the bike could travel 35 miles. At an average of 40 mph, it had a range of 25 miles. That is the only experience that I have with a battery pack that small.
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Richard230

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Reply #4 on: February 24, 2021, 03:02:01 pm
In other electric motorcycle news, Cake has just won a design award for their Osa electric motorcycle. It must have been an award for a practical city bike that can pull and carry stuff and one that has a lot of wasted space within the frame.  ;) 
https://electricmotorcycles.news/cake-wins-chicago-athenaeums-2020-good-design-award-for-the-osa-electric-motorcycle/
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axman88

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Reply #5 on: February 25, 2021, 06:25:54 am
In other electric motorcycle news, Cake has just won a design award for their Osa electric motorcycle.
I have seen that Cake machine a while ago.  It looks like the design model was made using Legos instead of clay.  I could see that being the ride of choice for Inspector Gadget.

I'm more interested in machines like the Dusenspeed Model 2.     https://newatlas.com/dusenspeed-e-bike/51274/   Technically a bicycle, but one that can go 100mph.  Something about the specs isn't adding up, but it does look pretty sweet.  It also supposedly can be purchased with a 4.5kW-hr battery pack.



Karl Fenn

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Reply #6 on: February 28, 2021, 05:04:06 pm
Electric bikes will be cheap to initially buy but expensive to maintain, it's always the corporations who devise and architect schemes to make dollars.


Richard230

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Reply #7 on: February 28, 2021, 10:53:17 pm
Electric bikes will be cheap to initially buy but expensive to maintain, it's always the corporations who devise and architect schemes to make dollars.

That has not been my experience. I have owned 5 electric motorcycles over the past 12 years. They have all been relatively expensive to purchase, but none have required any visits to the dealer for servicing and repairs that I wasn't able to perform by myself in my garage.  :) Compared with owning a BMW that saves a lot of cash every year. My running costs are about 10 cents a mile, which includes electricity, tires and insurance, but not depreciation - which can be a lot on an electric motorcycle.
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viczena

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Reply #8 on: February 28, 2021, 11:03:40 pm
Thats the same result I got with my electric cars. But I will wait with electric bikes until the engine will not shut down, the capacity is at least 300km and they have supercharging, at least 100kW.
For Bikes supercharging capability is much more necessary than for cars.
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Richard230

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Reply #9 on: March 01, 2021, 01:34:18 am
Thats the same result I got with my electric cars. But I will wait with electric bikes until the engine will not shut down, the capacity is at least 300km and they have supercharging, at least 100kW.
For Bikes supercharging capability is much more necessary than for cars.

That is going to be a tough row to hoe due to the small size of electric motorcycle batteries. For that to happen we will need an entirely new battery technology.   ;)
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axman88

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Reply #10 on: March 01, 2021, 04:10:40 am
But I will wait with electric bikes until ... the capacity is at least 300km

That is going to be a tough row to hoe due to the small size of electric motorcycle batteries. For that to happen we will need an entirely new battery technology.   ;)

I think 300 km, (i.e. 187 mile range) could be achieved with todays tech., if lower speed and heavier weight were accepted. 
I could take a standard 750 W E-bike, put a second battery pack on the rear rack and achieve 300km range next week.
https://www.juicedbikes.com/pages/real-world-range-test   I'd just have to ride at 12mph.

HD Livewires can do rated range of 146 now, just not at highway speeds.  The area drag coefficient of a Tesla Model 3 is .23, I'd be surprised if a Livewire is better than .50. 

Drag = (CdA x Af x V^2)/2

Evolution towards forms with lower aero drag, would help massively with more power efficiency at higher speeds.  I wonder if anyone is working on an electric maxiscooter?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebmSySiqR9I


Richard230

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Reply #11 on: March 01, 2021, 02:51:41 pm
I think 300 km, (i.e. 187 mile range) could be achieved with todays tech., if lower speed and heavier weight were accepted. 
I could take a standard 750 W E-bike, put a second battery pack on the rear rack and achieve 300km range next week.
https://www.juicedbikes.com/pages/real-world-range-test   I'd just have to ride at 12mph.

HD Livewires can do rated range of 146 now, just not at highway speeds.  The area drag coefficient of a Tesla Model 3 is .23, I'd be surprised if a Livewire is better than .50. 

Drag = (CdA x Af x V^2)/2

Evolution towards forms with lower aero drag, would help massively with more power efficiency at higher speeds.  I wonder if anyone is working on an electric maxiscooter?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebmSySiqR9I

You are right. I was thinking in miles, not kilometers.   :-[ 

I once rode my Zero when it was new 150 miles up and down a 2,000 foot high mountain and then back up the coast to my home at an average speed of 30 mph in the mountains and 50 mph along the coast highway against a 15 mph headwind. Just as I arrived home the "state of charge" display read "00". It took over 12 hours and 16.5 kWh to recharge the battery pack from my home's 120V wall outlet. You can bet I won't be trying that again. Talk about "range anxiety"!  ;)
2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM Duke 390, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


zimmemr

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Reply #12 on: March 01, 2021, 03:30:20 pm
You are right. I was thinking in miles, not kilometers.   :-[ 

I once rode my Zero when it was new 150 miles up and down a 2,000 foot high mountain and then back up the coast to my home at an average speed of 30 mph in the mountains and 50 mph along the coast highway against a 15 mph headwind. Just as I arrived home the "state of charge" display read "00". It took over 12 hours and 16.5 kWh to recharge the battery pack from my home's 120V wall outlet. You can bet I won't be trying that again. Talk about "range anxiety"!  ;)

That's my only real problem with e-bikes, a typical Sunday ride for me is around 300 miles, and a daily ride (I'm retired) around 100 to 150. Currently, if you'll excuse the poor pun E-bikes just don't have enough range for me. 


AzCal Retred

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Reply #13 on: March 01, 2021, 03:47:26 pm
It's all about charge density. Current batteries just don't equal liquid hydrocarbon fuels, either in storage capacity per pound (energy density) or recharge rates.
The device needed is the "batacitor", still a science fiction speculation at this point in time. Another novel concept from the fertile mind of Phillip Jose Farmer, but not yet available at Wal-Mart... :(
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=2056
>>> A giant step-down transformer of aluminum took the energy three times a day, sent it through Brobdignagian aluminum wires to a two-story device known as a batacitor. This was a late-twentieth-century electronic discovery that could accept hundreds of kilovolts in a hundredth of a microsecond and could discharge it at any rate from a tenth of a volt to one hundred kilovolts...
From The Fabulous Riverboat, by Philip Jose Farmer.
Published by Putnam in 1971 <<<

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Richard230

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Reply #14 on: March 01, 2021, 07:26:28 pm
It's all about charge density. Current batteries just don't equal liquid hydrocarbon fuels, either in storage capacity per pound (energy density) or recharge rates.
The device needed is the "batacitor", still a science fiction speculation at this point in time. Another novel concept from the fertile mind of Phillip Jose Farmer, but not yet available at Wal-Mart... :(
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=2056
>>> A giant step-down transformer of aluminum took the energy three times a day, sent it through Brobdignagian aluminum wires to a two-story device known as a batacitor. This was a late-twentieth-century electronic discovery that could accept hundreds of kilovolts in a hundredth of a microsecond and could discharge it at any rate from a tenth of a volt to one hundred kilovolts...
From The Fabulous Riverboat, by Philip Jose Farmer.
Published by Putnam in 1971 <<<


The bataclitor sound like something the U.S. Navy could use to power their not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rail guns.  ;)
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #15 on: March 01, 2021, 09:24:19 pm
"The bataclitor sound like something the U.S. Navy could use to power their not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rail guns."
R230 - I think you got the "personal massage unit" version corn-fused with the "batacitor", the imaginary power supply for the Navy's imaginary rail guns and imaginary anti-missile laser system... ;D ;D ;D
Didn't the Army have some tow-behind-an-Abrams, generator/cryomagnetic charge storing superconductive magnet/rail-gun General Dynamics profit centre also? Sort of a multi-billion dollar way to make your Abrams into a training target for the OpFor? Well, at least we still have the old reliable supercavitating torpedo, right?
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/test/article/14182169/torpedo-supercavitating-200-knots
https://news.yahoo.com/supercavitating-torpedoes-biggest-threat-u-183000084.html#:~:text=Supercavitating%20torpedos%20are%20rocket%2Dpropelled,envelops%20the%20torpedo%20almost%20completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitating_torpedo
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-United-States-not-created-a-supercavitating-torpedo-If-they-have-why-has-it-not-been-distributed-throughout-their-subs

The Kursk was thought to have been carrying these torpedoes when it sank. There was a "Frontline" news program on possible US submarine involvement a few years back, but I can find no trace of that article now. It's pretty unlikely that these torpedoes aren't already part of the arsenal, as they were under test in the 1970's by the US Navy. At the very least a fast, noisy torpedo approaching an enemy target at 200 knots would provide good cover for the shooter to escape & evade; the target would most certainly be preoccupied...

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Richard230

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Reply #16 on: March 01, 2021, 10:14:52 pm
"The bataclitor sound like something the U.S. Navy could use to power their not-quite-ready-for-prime-time rail guns."
R230 - I think you got the "personal massage unit" version corn-fused with the "batacitor", the imaginary power supply for the Navy's imaginary rail guns and imaginary anti-missile laser system... ;D ;D ;D
Didn't the Army have some tow-behind-an-Abrams, generator/cryomagnetic charge storing superconductive magnet/rail-gun General Dynamics profit centre also? Sort of a multi-billion dollar way to make your Abrams into a training target for the OpFor? Well, at least we still have the old reliable supercavitating torpedo, right?
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/test/article/14182169/torpedo-supercavitating-200-knots
https://news.yahoo.com/supercavitating-torpedoes-biggest-threat-u-183000084.html#:~:text=Supercavitating%20torpedos%20are%20rocket%2Dpropelled,envelops%20the%20torpedo%20almost%20completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercavitating_torpedo
https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-United-States-not-created-a-supercavitating-torpedo-If-they-have-why-has-it-not-been-distributed-throughout-their-subs

The Kursk was thought to have been carrying these torpedoes when it sank. There was a "Frontline" news program on possible US submarine involvement a few years back, but I can find no trace of that article now. It's pretty unlikely that these torpedoes aren't already part of the arsenal, as they were under test in the 1970's by the US Navy. At the very least a fast, noisy torpedo approaching an enemy target at 200 knots would provide good cover for the shooter to escape & evade; the target would most certainly be preoccupied...

When my son-in-law was working on his doctorate studying plasma energy physics at the University of Washington during the late 1990's he had a classmate who when he graduated went to work for Boeing. He helped them develop a tail-gun laser that was installed in a 747, which I believe was shot a few times after the turn of the century. Maybe as a last gasp part of the Star Wars project?  However, I don't think anything came of the idea other than documenting lots of problems that needed (a lot) more research.  ;)
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Richard230

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Reply #17 on: March 01, 2021, 11:48:51 pm
When my son-in-law was working on his doctorate studying plasma energy physics at the University of Washington during the late 1990's he had a classmate who when he graduated went to work for Boeing. He helped them develop a tail-gun laser that was installed in a 747, which I believe was shot a few times after the turn of the century. Maybe as a last gasp part of the Star Wars project?  However, I don't think anything came of the idea other than documenting lots of problems that needed (a lot) more research.  ;)

However, I just saw a YouTube report that came out today saying that Boeing did get the laser to work with chemical power about 10 years ago and now the Air Force is developing a aircraft mounted laser pod that has been shown to work against missiles, but it sounds to me like it needs more development and lots more money to put it into production.
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Nitrowing

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Reply #18 on: March 02, 2021, 12:22:20 am
developing a aircraft mounted laser pod that has been shown to work against missiles.

Until they chrome-plate the missiles?  :o
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


AzCal Retred

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Reply #19 on: March 02, 2021, 12:43:48 am
Years back General Dynamics rolled this crystal-nosed 747 bad boy out and said "Hey everyone, we're going to do infrared spectrophotometry!". About two weeks later the cover story fell apart. Wikipaedia sez that in 2014 the project was dismantled and the "Usable parts were removed". No word on where they went, hopefully not to Craigs List... :o
The Rooskies apparently don't think the concept was too far offbase, as they are still working hard at it.
Where one of these would REALLY work is above the atmosphere...
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/a-piece-of-nasa-history-has-re-entered-earths-orbit-after-54-years/
What a cool special project for the XB37, eh? A 1960's era "duck blind" filled up with a COIL laser.
https://www.space.com/25275-x37b-space-plane.html
The amateur astronomy folks found this jewel by accident about 15-20 years back, tracked it, calculated an orbit, did some spectrophotometry on it and found paint. All eyes then turned to NASA and asked "Whazzat?" Nasa says "We'll get back to you". A few weeks pass. Finally they say "Oh, we forgot - we lost a booster..." By then the "booster" had apparently maneuvered away from it's plotted orbit...?!?...as the amateur folks had lost it. Dimensions are about 10'-12' in diameter and 35'-40' long, depending on which version it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/

https://defpost.com/russia-completes-development-airborne-anti-satellite-laser-weapon/
The Russian A-60 project is comparable with the American airborne laser project that was based on the YAL-1 Airborne Laser Test Bed (ALTB). ALTB uses a megawatt-class chemical oxygen iodine laser (COIL) mounted inside a modified Boeing 747-400F.
YAL-1A project was is primarily designed as a missile defense system to destroy tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs) while in boost phase whereas the Russian project is designed as anti-satellite weapon (ASAT).


https://www.nasa.gov/feature/new-data-confirm-2020-so-to-be-the-upper-centaur-rocket-booster-from-the-1960-s
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 12:59:05 am by AzCal Retred »
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axman88

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Reply #20 on: March 02, 2021, 07:46:08 pm
I'll attempt to pull this thread back onto discussion of electric motorcycles, with discussion of some other machines that might fill the same niche as the Sondors.

Reviewing the specs for the Sondors Metacycle:
            ~200 lbs curb weight
             cast aluminum frame, 52" wheelbase
             17" wheels, 31.5" seat height
             8 kW nom. (14.5kW peak) Hub motor
             130 ft-lbs max torque
             72 volt, 4000 watt-hr battery is removable
             claimed recharge time 4 hrs, recharge at public, Level 2 stations, or 120V outlet
             Claimed range 80 miles, (likely rated at ~25mph, expect 1/2 that at highway speed)
             Claimed max speed 80mph.
             Introductory price $5000

Let's look at other machines available that are roughly in the same class as the Sondors is expected to be, starting with the Super Soco TCmax:
             ~220 lbs curb weight
             52.5" wheelbase
             17" wheels, 30.3" seat height
             3.9 kW nom. (5kW peak) mid motor with belt drive
             132 ft-lbs max torque
             72 volt, 3240 watt-hr battery is removable
             claimed recharge time 8-9 hrs, standard charge, 240VAC charging capable
             Claimed range 69 miles.
             Claimed max speed 59 mph.
             Current price $5100

REF:           
https://en.vmotosoco.com/tcmax-overview/performance/
https://electrek.co/2018/11/07/super-soco-electric-motorcycle/
https://urbanebikes.com/products/tc-max-62mph-deposit

It appears that the TCMax has been in production for a couple of years, and is being sold at right around the $5k price point, that Sondors has targeted.  As an urban commuter, or suburban roadster, where a rider's driving pattern involves many days with less than 50 miles of travel, I think a machine like this could fit the bill admirably.

As gas prices continue to inch upwards, and especially for those whose machines require premium, the fuel cost of operating gasoline powered machines can easily be the major component of the vehicle.  Since I drive used cars, fuel cost is by far the largest component of the total cost of a vehicle.   I'll do a simple calculation comparing some options for a hypothetic 40 miles a day, urban commuter:

Peter drives a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and gets 20mpg with regular gasoline, he works 50 weeks a year, and commutes 5 days a week, 40 miles a day.  Over a year's time, that's  10,000 miles.   At 20 miles per gallon, that's 500 gallons.  At $2.50/gallon Peter is spending $1250 per year on fuel, not a lot considering a new Jeep Grand Cherokee costs around $35k to drive out of the showroom.

Paul rides a 20 year old Honda motorcycle, that a neighbor gave him for free and he fixed up to be reliable.  He rides it everyday to work, rain or shine, and has the same 40 mile commute as Peter.  Paul's bike requires premium fuel, at $3.50/gallon, and gets 40 miles per gallon.  This is pretty typical performance for full sized bikes from the late carburetor period, but Paul is content, because the bike cost him nothing to purchase.  His 10,000 miles of riding each year, cost him (10,000/40 * $3.50) = $875.

Mary is also a motorcycle rider, but she rides a new electric motorcycle.  She rides 40 miles a day, then recharges at home in the evening.  Her charger adds about 2.5kwatt-hour of power each time she recharges, and she pays 15 cents per kwatt-hour.  Mary's 10,000 miles of commuting each year cost her ( 10,000 / 40 x (2.5 x $.15)) = $94.

If Mary bought her machine for $5000, it takes only 6-1/2 years of riding, before she has paid for her bike, and is saving money, relative to Paul's free Honda, assuming that no change occurs in the price of energy.

Of course, this simplified calculation totally neglects the fact that a battery pack is only good for a limited number of recharge cycles, and battery packs aren't inexpensive.  https://urbanebikes.com/products/super-soco-additional-battery?variant=36343893000356

I think this calculation will move increasingly towards favoring the E-motos, as the technology becomes more widespread, and therefore cheaper, and as the cost differential between petrol energy and electricity widens.  I expect both to happen, and at an increasing rate.


Nitrowing

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Reply #21 on: March 02, 2021, 08:55:47 pm

I think this calculation will move increasingly towards favoring the E-motos, as the technology becomes more widespread, and therefore cheaper, and as the cost differential between petrol energy and electricity widens.  I expect both to happen, and at an increasing rate.
The upside of having a detachable cycle battery is charging at work!
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


Richard230

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Reply #22 on: March 02, 2021, 10:32:41 pm
I wish we paid only 15 cents a kWh in California. I pay 25 cents at the lowest tier and my newspaper today said that the price of power would be going up over 8% next month, with more increases for later this year.  >:(

Here is what seems like a decent city electric motorcycle at a really cheap price and if you live in the 48 US states they will ship it to your door:  https://cscmotorcycles.com/city-slicker-black/
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 10:45:39 pm by Richard230 »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #23 on: March 03, 2021, 01:31:54 am
Install enough PV to cover your net usage and you won't care what the per KWH cost is. Install a bit over that and your electric vehicles will have no power cost. PV is cheap and outlasts the owner. Go net-metering and let the Utility be your "battery".
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Reply #24 on: March 03, 2021, 08:22:54 am
I wish we paid only 15 cents a kWh in California. I pay 25 cents at the lowest tier and my newspaper today said that the price of power would be going up over 8% next month, with more increases for later this year.  >:(

The internet said that 13 cents/ kwh is the national average.  I pay a bit more here too, but the flat rate delivery charges are how they get us, it's half the bill some months, this billing structure dis-incentivizes economizing.

Here is what seems like a decent city electric motorcycle at a really cheap price and if you live in the 48 US states they will ship it to your door:  https://cscmotorcycles.com/city-slicker-black/
The CSC is a cute little bike, and I like the mid motor, but not fond of 12" wheels or the tiny 49" wheelbase.
The City Slicker's weight is 216 lbs and top speed is 46 mph.  Range on the 72V 26AH (1.9 kW-hr) battery is ~45-50 miles for in-city, mixed speed riding.  Motor is belt drive 1.5 kW nom, 3.2 kW max.   I didn't find a torque spec, but it looks pretty peppy in the videos and is described as torquey in this review.  https://electrek.co/2019/04/04/review-csc-city-slicker-electric-motorcycle/

CSC also came out recently with an electric scooter styled after a Honda Cub.  The Monterrey is priced at just $2K, and uses a Hub motor (1.5 kW nom, 2.4 kW max) instead of the belt drive.  Torque is 88ft/lb.  It also carries a smaller battery, 60V26Ah  (1.56 kW-hr)  but nets about the same range.  Weight is 158 lb.  With its 17" wheels, the bike looks bigger and more comfortable than the City Slicker to me, although the speed is more limited.   https://cscmotorcycles.com/csc-monterrey-electric-scooter/

The City Slicker review I linked to, discusses how the owner modified his power output by changing the software in the controller.  I saw this done in a video about a PEBL micro bicycle car, (https://www.better.bike/)  wherein the owner boosted power output by 67% by downloading a new controller configuration profile from his laptop.  I think that loads of additional power could be unlocked from some of the vehicles being sold as Class 2 & Class 3 electric bicycles.  Some of these are starting to show up for sale with motors capable of higher power output than the mandated 750W, and the speed electronically limited by the controller. 




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Reply #25 on: March 03, 2021, 01:28:01 pm

CSC also came out recently with an electric scooter styled after a Honda Cub.  The Monterrey is priced at just $2K, and uses a Hub motor (1.5 kW nom, 2.4 kW max) instead of the belt drive.  Torque is 88ft/lb.  It also carries a smaller battery, 60V26Ah  (1.56 kW-hr)  but nets about the same range.  Weight is 158 lb.  With its 17" wheels, the bike looks bigger and more comfortable than the City Slicker to me, although the speed is more limited.   https://cscmotorcycles.com/csc-monterrey-electric-scooter/

That's pretty much perfect  8)
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Reply #26 on: March 04, 2021, 03:51:12 am
Here's a full suspension mountain e-bike with fat tyres, dual motors and dual batteries, capable of carrying 400 pounds. Range stock should be maybe 100 miles on the street. If the "NewEnergy" batteries were grafted on, you'd add maybe 60 pounds but triple the amp hours and mileage. Maybe a 250-300 mile range? A $4k bike and another $2k of batteries "ain't cheep" but the idea here was to go a reasonable distance electrically. This is kind of a "Trail 90" with an appetite for electrons.

https://ecells.com/product/e-cells-super-monarch-crown-awd-1500-watt-52v-off-road-e-bike/
E-Cells Super Monarch™ Crown AWD 1500 Off-Road E-Bike
This baby packs out a total of 400lbs not including the bike! Runs up to 2200-watts of peak power with our twin motor, twin battery, and twin suspension design. No other manufacturer in the world offers all these features. We went to Bafang and had built special front and rear 52v750w motors. They have never built one of these motors except now for E-Cells. Another first for E-Cells! This bike has an 18 MOSFET controller that blasts out over 44 amps of power! That’s a total peak power of 2200 watts certified!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs9oTg7NAY
Super Monarch e-bike: 30 MPH, 2 motors & 2 batteries!

The Super Monarch ain't edzakary a murdercycle, but range might be interesting if these batteries were grafted on:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JPY49RQ/ref=twister_B08VWHPR4V?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
NewEnergy Ebike Battery 48V 10AH-50AH Lithium ion / LiFePO4 Battery Pack with 5A Charger and 50A BMS for 3000W-350W Motor
42 pounds, 14" x 7" x 8" 48V, 50 AH, about $900 each... :o
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Reply #27 on: March 04, 2021, 11:28:01 pm
I don't need another bike, so I just bought TWO! Ok, not electric motorcycles but e-bikes. Motorcycle styled with headlight, taillight, fenders and the batteries in a faux gas tank. They are legal in the national park nearby (since 2019) and on local bike paths. I learned a lot about e-bikes this week. Should be a fun alternative to motorcycles at times, and maybe even cause me to exercise a little.

They should be shipped soon.


axman88

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Reply #28 on: March 05, 2021, 01:45:43 am
I don't need another bike, so I just bought TWO! Ok, not electric motorcycles but e-bikes. Motorcycle styled with headlight, taillight, fenders and the batteries in a faux gas tank. They are legal in the national park nearby (since 2019) and on local bike paths. I learned a lot about e-bikes this week. Should be a fun alternative to motorcycles at times, and maybe even cause me to exercise a little.
I hope you start a thread on your new e-bicycles, and share with us some of the experience.

It was announced late last years, that various federal agencies have proposed new and less restrictive rules regarding "low speed electric bicycles", and bicycles in general.    https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/trump-administration-paves-way-more-people-experience-bicycling-public-lands

They can be ridden on many bike trails, and in parks, many places that motorcycles can't legally go.

I find it very attractive that these e-bicycle machines are not required to be registered, not required to be insured, and the operator is not required to be licensed.  For older riders, or for those who for various reasons, may be at risk of having to forfeit their legal driving privileges, these vehicles may be a viable alternative.

Another interesting thing that seems to be going on right now, is that motor sizes in E-bicycles being offered for sale here in the US are going up.  It seems that the way the law is written, manufacturers are able and willing to deliver machines that have motors much larger than the federally mandated 750 watts, and to limit the power using the controller.  These motors are almost universally permanent magnet brushless DC motors, with speed and power controlled by the signals to the various windings.   It appears that in some cases, changing the power output is as simple as uploading a new set of parameters to the software in the controller.

Most of the machines that I point to in this thread,  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=29844.0  have 3000 watt motors, and one is slated to be released with a 10kW motor.  I would think that 5 to 10 horsepower, in a bicycle that weighs less than 90 lbs, could make for some pretty interesting riding. 

I am seriously reconsidering what the vehicle that I choose for "recreational riding" might look like.  3 hours spent on a motorcycle, riding the highway, will cost me $10 to $15.  I'll probably see the same section of highway that I've seen 100 times before, and encounter nobody.  3 hours spent riding an e-bike, just about anywhere EXCEPT the highway, will cost me 30 cents in electricity and I may well encounter all sorts of humans and animals, and sights that I haven't seen before.  I love my RE thumper, but if you've ever driven Chicago streets on a Saturday afternoon, you will know it's nothing that can be called "relaxing".

Note that the federal definition of "low speed electric bicycle" also includes 3 wheelers.  We are seeing the development of some interesting, lightweight, semi or fully enclosed, micro cars.
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uos7H4ZFA48
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maknz8GBVQI
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPc1ezMHmM
My hunch is that these enclosed shapes, will have far superior aero drag-shedding performance vs traditional bicycle shapes, and that for higher speed, long distance travel, trading weight for drag, might be key to achieving longer range.  It will probably take longer than I can anticipate being around for eggs to be accepted by the moto market, but I wouldn't be surprised if eggs outnumber motorcycles on the highways of the future.

Another interesting thing to consider, is that some 4 wheeled vehicles, can meet the legal requirement of "personal mobility device", like this fun looking, e-vehicle that can be equipped with its own solar charging panels:
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_ZRnMzZ_s


axman88

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Reply #29 on: March 05, 2021, 02:50:08 am
Here's a full suspension mountain e-bike with fat tyres, dual motors and dual batteries, capable of carrying 400 pounds. Range stock should be maybe 100 miles on the street. If the "NewEnergy" batteries were grafted on, you'd add maybe 60 pounds but triple the amp hours and mileage. Maybe a 250-300 mile range? A $4k bike and another $2k of batteries "ain't cheep" but the idea here was to go a reasonable distance electrically. This is kind of a "Trail 90" with an appetite for electrons.

https://ecells.com/product/e-cells-super-monarch-crown-awd-1500-watt-52v-off-road-e-bike/
E-Cells Super Monarch™ Crown AWD 1500 Off-Road E-Bike
This baby packs out a total of 400lbs not including the bike! Runs up to 2200-watts of peak power with our twin motor, twin battery, and twin suspension design. No other manufacturer in the world offers all these features. We went to Bafang and had built special front and rear 52v750w motors. They have never built one of these motors except now for E-Cells. Another first for E-Cells! This bike has an 18 MOSFET controller that blasts out over 44 amps of power! That’s a total peak power of 2200 watts certified!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecs9oTg7NAY
Super Monarch e-bike: 30 MPH, 2 motors & 2 batteries!

The Super Monarch ain't edzakary a murdercycle, but range might be interesting if these batteries were grafted on:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JPY49RQ/ref=twister_B08VWHPR4V?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
NewEnergy Ebike Battery 48V 10AH-50AH Lithium ion / LiFePO4 Battery Pack with 5A Charger and 50A BMS for 3000W-350W Motor
42 pounds, 14" x 7" x 8" 48V, 50 AH, about $900 each... :o

I'm thinking that as the practical top speed comes down, the need for range comes down as well.  It's hard to imagine wanting to stay in the saddle of a machine like this for more than 6 or 8 hours.  So, 250 mile range at the 30mph top speed would give 8 hours and after that it's time to rest and recharge.

Seems like shedding some weight including the fat tires and the 2nd motor, going to skinnier, higher pressure tires, and staying on well paved roads, would be a better formula for long range travel?  The ECells machines seem more suited to offroad, although I agree that a high load capacity is important for packing on more batteries.  Maybe a three wheeled recumbent that reduces the drag profile of the rider, puts the weight down low, and incorporates a fairing?  Getting back the "egg" micro cars, I guess.

I was wondering about the effect of a front wheel hub motor on stability?  It seems to me that, unless the motors are somehow syncronized, having torque applied to the front hub, that, especially on an off road machine, might be inclined to find itself turned at some odd angle, and bearing down on loose gravel or slippery rock, might be a recipe for a faceplant.   Are these front / rear motor setups synchonized?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #30 on: March 05, 2021, 04:12:09 am
The Super Monarch seems to use 1 controller for both motors. On pavement I don't see a problem. With some significant battery capacity and the ability to literally amp up the motors, this machine should have the ability to run 45 or so for probably at least 6 hours, flat pavement. That puts you in Honda Passport territory, which is significant.
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axman88

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Reply #31 on: March 07, 2021, 12:42:07 am
The Super Monarch seems to use 1 controller for both motors. On pavement I don't see a problem. With some significant battery capacity and the ability to literally amp up the motors, this machine should have the ability to run 45 or so for probably at least 6 hours, flat pavement. That puts you in Honda Passport territory, which is significant.
I don't think the ultimate solution for high speed travel, is to load on more batteries, and add more power.  I think the answer is to directly address the issue with high velocity travel, which is air drag.

Over 5 years ago, the Ginvelo was capable of traveling 75 to 100 miles, with a battery of only 1kw: https://www.engineering.com/story/ginzvelo---sustainable-human-electric-hybrid

And the Eta from Aerovelo set the human powered land speed record at just under 90 miles per hour with human power only.  http://www.aerovelo.com/eta-speedbike
This is the same group that built the human powered helicoptor.

Low drag shapes are the way to go fast with modest power, and thus be free from the need for massive storage capacity.

The other way to do it is Elon Musk's tunnel.     Even a Checker Cab could go 120 mph, if there was no air to drag against.


Richard230

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Reply #32 on: March 07, 2021, 01:31:21 am
I don't think the ultimate solution for high speed travel, is to load on more batteries, and add more power.  I think the answer is to directly address the issue with high velocity travel, which is air drag.

Over 5 years ago, the Ginvelo was capable of traveling 75 to 100 miles, with a battery of only 1kw: https://www.engineering.com/story/ginzvelo---sustainable-human-electric-hybrid

And the Eta from Aerovelo set the human powered land speed record at just under 90 miles per hour with human power only.  http://www.aerovelo.com/eta-speedbike
This is the same group that built the human powered helicoptor.

Low drag shapes are the way to go fast with modest power, and thus be free from the need for massive storage capacity.

The other way to do it is Elon Musk's tunnel.     Even a Checker Cab could go 120 mph, if there was no air to drag against.

That airless tunnel would be tough on the rider, though.  ;) However an electric motorcycle in an airless environment would be a happy camper.  :)
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axman88

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Reply #33 on: March 07, 2021, 02:21:36 am
That airless tunnel would be tough on the rider, though.  ;) However an electric motorcycle in an airless environment would be a happy camper.  :)
As I understood the concept, pedestrians and light vehicles are loaded on larger pressurized sleds for intercity transport.

But these egg shaped vehicles don't look like they would require that much modification to be  pressurized.  https://rotoworldmag.com/roto-velo-revolutionizes-travel/

  Drag varies with fluid density, so one needn't go to hard vacuum to achieve substantial benefit.  At 6000 ft. air density is half of sea level.  Seems like a tunnel could be pumped down to 1/3 of an atmosphere, and it wouldn't be too stressful for occupants of un-pressurized vehicles, if the tunnel was also warmed and the nitrogen in the air was replaced with oxygen?   Even some light pedaling might be manageable.

I wonder how energy efficient it would be to get the air moving down the tunnel at some fairly brisk velocity.  With a system like that available, one could travel across the country by kite board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_landboarding


AzCal Retred

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Reply #34 on: March 07, 2021, 09:03:55 am
An airless tunnel with maglev vehicles guarantees at some point a capsule of pink foam arrives at destination. It also will have at some point maybe 20 capsules full of baked pink foam when the tunnel vacuum is breached mid-trip and the occupants decelerate from 700 MPH to zero in a couple seconds against incoming air drag. By the way, there will be no exit for miles, even if they did survive the stop.

It's WAY easier to have intercontinental high speed train service like the rest of the civilized world. At 300 MPH you are from New York to Los Angeles in 10 hours, L.A. to Seattle in maybe 3 hours. When the train breaks down, you can still breathe, get out and just take a bus or get a hotel room. High Speed rail is just a phone call away, nothing to invent.
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Reply #35 on: March 07, 2021, 10:25:17 am
An airless tunnel with maglev vehicles guarantees at some point a capsule of pink foam arrives at destination. It also will have at some point maybe 20 capsules full of baked pink foam when the tunnel vacuum is breached mid-trip and the occupants decelerate from 700 MPH to zero in a couple seconds against incoming air drag. By the way, there will be no exit for miles, even if they did survive the stop.

It's WAY easier to have intercontinental high speed train service like the rest of the civilized world. At 300 MPH you are from New York to Los Angeles in 10 hours, L.A. to Seattle in maybe 3 hours. When the train breaks down, you can still breathe, get out and just take a bus or get a hotel room. High Speed rail is just a phone call away, nothing to invent.

R&D...Research and Development. Largelely missleading denomination of departments in some corps. The job is usually not to invent and develop something new never seen before but to apply "science" and "organisation" to deliver a product that meets "customer" expected criteria & a "plan" that describes the way from a prototype/plan to market introduction. Applied science is the key word - that requires correct understanding, communication and execution of the underlying science and underlying physical reality to practical results. The amount of money a firm spends on R&D is usually dependent on the turnover and profits a enterprise realises and used to be between 5-10% depending on strategy and future outlook.

Now those days there is some minor issues with "applying" science. It´s not politically correct to correctly interpret science and even less take action on it even though everyone would benefit. If you want a high speed train, there still will need to be someone that decides what design that train is going to be, somone who makes a plan and someone who puts it into practice. Since it would be a project that the state would purchase it will be the state who would be responsible. He who purchases is responsible that he purchases what he pays for, however when the state purchases something it usually lands up being a forever project that never delivers and is paid for forever. Like our infamous airport in Berlin. Just look at the timeline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

if a corp goes beyond about the 10% of R&D budget it´s guaranteed to go bust IMHO since it turns slowly into a government like organisation.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 10:35:01 am by derottone »


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« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 02:32:02 pm by Nitrowing »
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


AzCal Retred

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Reply #37 on: March 07, 2021, 06:22:25 pm
Craig Vetter was a genius, pure & simple.

Amurricans largely buy powerful vehicles when fuel is cheap, then toss those same vehicles in the bin at a loss when fuel prices cycle up. Apparently the ego is driving, not the logical bit. The Prius goes on the auction block as soon as fuel prices cycle down, well before the maybe 400,000 mile break even-on-fuel point.

The open-air step-thru Honda 50/70/90/125 is a great machine for crowded city conditions. Full slippery "dustbin" fairings quickly lose allure in high winds or when air temperatures exceed 90F. Discomfort is a hard sell in the USA, second only to having patience whilst traveling slowly.

That said - from your examples it's obvious that a low powered EV with great aerodynamic numbers would have improved range. However, marketing a practical vehicle to a nation of petulant, self-indulgent, power & status obsessed teenagers would be a tough slog. It's not a case of can't be fuel/energy efficient, it's won't.

In Amurrika we largely see no difference between needs & wants. At least we are non-discriminatory about something, eh? There is however a niche market of folks that blithely go on their summer vacations in their Prius (Prii?), slogging along the I40 at 55-65 MPH, getting 45-50 MPG in air conditioned splendor, passing the occasional dead-on-the-side-of-the-road ginormous 12 MPG chrome & giant tyre festooned 4WD Super-Dooty- Crew-Cab pickup towing a color-coordinated ski boat, out of gas because the City-Boy owner didn't stop at the last Costco in Bakersfield to get the cheapest regular to fuel his $700 a month ego-trip-mobile.
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Arschloch

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Reply #38 on: March 07, 2021, 07:05:27 pm

In Amurrika we largely see no difference between needs & wants. At least we are non-discriminatory about something, eh? There is however a niche market of folks that blithely go on their summer vacations in their Prius (Prii?), slogging along the I40 at 55-65 MPH, getting 45-50 MPG in air conditioned splendor, passing the occasional dead-on-the-side-of-the-road ginormous 12 MPG chrome & giant tyre festooned 4WD Super-Dooty- Crew-Cab pickup towing a color-coordinated ski boat, out of gas because the City-Boy owner didn't stop at the last Costco in Bakersfield to get the cheapest regular to fuel his $700 a month ego-trip-mobile.

...now that would be a good thing about Amurrika. I need what I want, if I can´t get it than there is no point of doing anything much. You want a perverted gob. SOB´s to decide what you need and should have, just move to r§"§$ard country of sweden and keep working so that you see your f"§$tard commie svine and their arabic frinds driving around you in porsches.

...I am warning you though, a 1940 Royal Enfield may not be on that gob list of your needs.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 07:39:04 pm by derottone »


Richard230

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Reply #39 on: March 07, 2021, 10:41:48 pm
Craig Vetter was a genius, pure & simple.

Amurricans largely buy powerful vehicles when fuel is cheap, then toss those same vehicles in the bin at a loss when fuel prices cycle up. Apparently the ego is driving, not the logical bit. The Prius goes on the auction block as soon as fuel prices cycle down, well before the maybe 400,000 mile break even-on-fuel point.

The open-air step-thru Honda 50/70/90/125 is a great machine for crowded city conditions. Full slippery "dustbin" fairings quickly lose allure in high winds or when air temperatures exceed 90F. Discomfort is a hard sell in the USA, second only to having patience whilst traveling slowly.

That said - from your examples it's obvious that a low powered EV with great aerodynamic numbers would have improved range. However, marketing a practical vehicle to a nation of petulant, self-indulgent, power & status obsessed teenagers would be a tough slog. It's not a case of can't be fuel/energy efficient, it's won't.

In Amurrika we largely see no difference between needs & wants. At least we are non-discriminatory about something, eh? There is however a niche market of folks that blithely go on their summer vacations in their Prius (Prii?), slogging along the I40 at 55-65 MPH, getting 45-50 MPG in air conditioned splendor, passing the occasional dead-on-the-side-of-the-road ginormous 12 MPG chrome & giant tyre festooned 4WD Super-Dooty- Crew-Cab pickup towing a color-coordinated ski boat, out of gas because the City-Boy owner didn't stop at the last Costco in Bakersfield to get the cheapest regular to fuel his $700 a month ego-trip-mobile.

Here is a fellow with the nickname of Electric Terry who had Craig Vetter help him design and build this fully streamlined electric motorcycle powered by a 2012 Zero drive train, lots of extra batteries and additional chargers. The three photos are from the 2013 electric vehicle show in Santa Clara, CA. He rode this motorcycle several times across the country and also received an Iron Butt award for traveling 1000 miles within 24 hours on that electric dustbin. Just for fun I will also attach a photo of an interesting electric vehicle that I saw at the previous Plugin show in 2012 (wrong photo caption).  ;D
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Reply #40 on: March 08, 2021, 03:30:39 am
Let's not forget our friend Mike Corbin. He is obviously well known for his motorcycle seats, and rightfully so. But he was was leading the formative years with e-bikes, too.
"In 1972, Mike Corbin set the Electric Motorcycle Land Speed Record at Bonneville with “Quicksilver” running lead/acid batteries, dual aircraft starter motors and a speed controller that amounted to a series of high-current electromagnetic switches. This run would be the first time an electric motorcycle had broken the 100 mph speed barrier, at 101 mph, and by 1974 Corbin had refitted the bike with silverzinc batteries and set a new benchmark: 165.397 mph, that stood for over 30 years."
https://electricmotorcycles.news/e-people/mike-corbin/
   Corbin is also a "undocumented" aerodynamic wizard. I remember him showing up at Bonneville with his golf ball surfaced stream liner.
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Reply #41 on: March 08, 2021, 12:38:29 pm
Let's not forget our friend Mike Corbin. He is obviously well known for his motorcycle seats, and rightfully so. But he was was leading the formative years with e-bikes, too.
"In 1972, Mike Corbin set the Electric Motorcycle Land Speed Record at Bonneville with “Quicksilver” running lead/acid batteries, dual aircraft starter motors and a speed controller that amounted to a series of high-current electromagnetic switches. This run would be the first time an electric motorcycle had broken the 100 mph speed barrier, at 101 mph, and by 1974 Corbin had refitted the bike with silverzinc batteries and set a new benchmark: 165.397 mph, that stood for over 30 years."
https://electricmotorcycles.news/e-people/mike-corbin/
   Corbin is also a "undocumented" aerodynamic wizard. I remember him showing up at Bonneville with his golf ball surfaced stream liner.


Corbin started here in Connecticut and one day in 1974 or75 showed up at our small Yamaha shop with an electric bike he wanted to market. We all got to ride it, and were all impressed by it's power, not so much by it's ON/OFF throttle control.


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Reply #42 on: March 08, 2021, 02:34:39 pm
While my daughter was having a custom seat built for her 1981 BMW R65LS at Corbin's shop in Salinas, we saw his workmen finishing up the prototype Sparrow. I can't recall right now if it was the early one powered by a gasoline engine or the later model that would be sold with an electric motor as a production vehicle for a few years. I also recall that there was at least one Sparrow dealer located on the east side of Highway 101 in San Rafael, CA.
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Richard230

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Reply #43 on: March 08, 2021, 02:39:27 pm
And for anyone looking for a modern version of the Sparrow, we have this  ::)
https://electricmotorcycles.news/nimbus-future-of-urban-mobility/
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #44 on: March 08, 2021, 04:04:56 pm
Great link!
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axman88

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Reply #45 on: March 11, 2021, 12:08:21 am
Good news from Sondors:  https://electrek.co/2021/03/03/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-production-ahead-of-schedule/ 

Apparently they are letting some folks in the preorder group know that they need to have their money ready for delivery as soon as September.

No announcement yet from Sondors of a price increase.

My buddy had his $100 deposit refunded by Sondors.  He didn't make the cut for Q4 of 2021, and they didn't automatically shuttle him to the Q1 of 2022 group. They told him to try to pre-order again, after May 1.

In a world of Go Fund Me and Kick Starter promises, all this sounds pretty legit to me.


Karl Fenn

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Reply #46 on: March 13, 2021, 12:46:59 am
Never the less l still dislike them.


axman88

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Reply #47 on: March 13, 2021, 12:54:37 am
Never the less l still dislike them.
Yes, I see from reading your many posts that most things in the world fall into that category.

I guess that you are not aware that NOT posting on a topic is an option?


Nitrowing

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Reply #48 on: March 13, 2021, 10:45:02 am
I guess that you are not aware that NOT posting on a topic is an option?
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/
No wonder we no longer have a motor industry


axman88

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Reply #49 on: November 23, 2021, 04:50:24 pm
The manufacturing company that I work for has definitely been experiencing supply problems.  Steel, aluminum, plastic, even things like laminate films, and caster wheels are all hit or miss.  Lead times have doubled then doubled again.  It keeps an engineer busy, making substitutions and devising work-arounds.

It seems like Sondors is having issues too.  They have delayed delivery of the upcoming Metacycle, and closed the pre-order for 2022 delivery.  There have been rumors of a $1000 price increase, before the first machines are even delivered.

Here we can see some images of a pre-production prototype:  https://electrek.co/2021/11/19/exclusive-first-look-at-the-production-ready-sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle/

The styling has been toned down a bit, some compromises are inevitable as a product goes from the drawing board to the production line.


axman88

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Reply #50 on: June 22, 2022, 06:24:43 pm
Looks like the Metacycle is getting close to fulfillment.

https://m.facebook.com/pg/sondorsX/posts/

For those who plunked down $1000, then waited, and waited, and waited, and waited, I'm sure the anticipation is great.  For those who took a wait and see attitude, the price has predictably increased, ... to $6K

https://sondorsx.com/products/sondors-metacycle-2022-shipping

As I figure it, unless gas prices drop, this purchase price is about equal to the money most riders will pump into their gas tanks over ten years of riding, and every week the calculation yields a shorter payback period.  The cost of replacement / backup LI pack is the remaining part of the cost calculus.   Unlike some manufacturer, I'm pretty sure Sondors will be offering these, as they do for their bicycles.  https://shop.sondors.com/collections/sondors-x-xs-fat-tires-electronics-1/products/sondors-x-xs-48v-battery

With an 80 mile range, this won't be the preferred machine for the iron butt, cross country riders, but it would be a fine choice for folks like me, who have daily need for relatively short transport.   Power is a step down from my Royal Enfield, but greater than the 150cc scooter I'm commuting with these days.  I could charge on Sunday morning and ride all week.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #51 on: June 22, 2022, 07:12:15 pm
That's pretty on track with the Honda Super Cub. They seem to retail for between $4K to $5K, hold a gallon of fuel, make about 10 HP out of that venerable 125cc single. Basically for about the same money the Sondors gives you the EV version. Not too shabby considering Honda has a 60 year production experience advantage. Any idea what king of service life to expect from the Metacycle?
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axman88

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Reply #52 on: June 22, 2022, 09:38:33 pm
Any idea what king of service life to expect from the Metacycle?
We can try to gauge that based on Sondors electric bicycles.  Sondors bicycles have earned a pretty good reputation, with steady refinement and improvement of design and introduction of new models, but with any new design it's difficult to say if there will be some major issue that will be the Achilles heel.  If that fancy cast aluminum exo-frame starts cracking, for example, ....  I'll be getting me one cheap!

The Metacycle uses a hub motor, (I'm assuming it's the internal planetary geared type)  which is a relatively simple and mature tech.  I'm seeing estimates between around 20,000 and 100,000 miles for the life expectancy of bicycle motors.  Bicycle batteries are said to have life of 1000 recharge cycles or 3 - 5 years. 

This technology is all getting mature, but not enough so to have much real world long term history.  Sondors was doing "Accelerated Durability Testing." almost a year ago, to the tune of 9000 simulated miles per day.   An article published back then said;

SONDORS says the Metacycle drivetrain has now racked up over 300,000 miles (510,000 km) of testing - and all those revolutions without suffering any major issues. The company adds that the battery has also been put to the test to the tune of 1,000 successful “charge” and “discharge” cycles.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-faces-durability-testing-before-q3-deliveries-167918.html

The production delays have hopefully had the beneficial effect of giving Sondor's engineers the opportunity to pull bugs out that might otherwise have been included in the first production machines.  Time will tell.

Stacking against the Honda Cub is an interesting comparison.  The Metacycle is said to have a nominal 11 hp and 20 peak, but I've seen torque numbers mentioned that are on the order of 200 ft-lbs peak.  I'm skeptical of that number, which is about twice what a Harley Big Twin claims, and on a vehicle that weighs only 200 lbs.  My Stella 4T 150cc scooter weighs about 260 lbs, has about 9 hp, and serves up a measly 9 ft-lbs.  Our RE 500 UCEs deliver around 30 ft-lbs, which I find to be a satisfying amount of get go.  This little aluminum framed E-skoot might be turn out to be a really fun (and economical) little ride.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #53 on: June 22, 2022, 11:24:38 pm
I'm guessing the Super Cub likely needs a top end rebuild every 50K - 75K miles as it spends more time WFO, likely every 4 - 8 years if ridden regularly. From the sound of it, the Metacycle should run close to 20 years with just tires, tubes & cables. A "lifetime" investment for most of us here, yes? ;D
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GlennF

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Reply #54 on: June 22, 2022, 11:45:41 pm
From the sound of it, the Metacycle should run close to 20 years with just tires, tubes & cables. A "lifetime" investment for most of us here, yes? ;D

I tis going to need at least three or four battery sets over 20 years as no current battery has an indefinite shelf life once installed, even if not ridden.

Still going to be pretty economical though, even with battery replacement every 3 to 5 years.


axman88

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Reply #55 on: June 23, 2022, 12:54:03 am
I tis going to need at least three or four battery sets over 20 years as no current battery has an indefinite shelf life once installed, even if not ridden.
Maybe, or maybe not.  We shouldn't be talking about shelf life, which means no recharging, and will kill from self discharge.  Anything suffers from neglect.  Similarly if we are recharging every day, or two or three times a day, lifetime will again be relatively short.  But a usage scenario that draws the battery down to 30% and charges to 80% could last much longer.  Folks who ride 50 miles a week, at low average speeds, (like my commuting scenario), might only need to recharge 60 times a year.  Depending on the temperature of my garage, that battery might last an impressively long time.  Probably not the 1000 recharge cycles / 60 recharges/ year = 16 years, but perhaps.

Industry standards say that batteries are officially dead when they can only be charged to 80% of their rated capacity.  I bet there are a heck of a lot of gas powered motos out on the streets that, due to voluntary modifications, age and/or neglect, can't achieve 80% of factory claimed fuel tank range.  We just fill them up more often.  This is how a lot of us treat our cell phones, and laptops, they don't get new battery, they spend more time being charged

At least one person, much more educated than me, thinks that we can expect much more life from our LI-ion batteries, up to 20 years:   https://insideevs.com/news/317649/expert-what-you-know-about-lithium-batteries-is-wrong-can-last-up-to-20-years/

I've got an old sealed lead acid car battery in utility service, that if it isn't already that age, is approaching 20.  I'm sensitive to its needs and it does what I ask it to do, standing in for moto batteries on bikes being serviced, jumping cars, running an inverter, whatever needs doing.  It gets re-charged when it needs it, a period that can be measured in weeks or months.


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Reply #56 on: June 23, 2022, 08:57:00 pm
As someone who has owned 5 electric motorcycles over the past 10 years, I will make this comment:  Most had a decent design for the time, but their reliability was let down by the components sourced typically from China. Various components, like AC chargers, DC-DC converters, motors, bearings, controllers, batteries and other parts can and usually will fail after some time and miles. Motorcycles and their owners are really tough on parts and the manufacturers are not willing to pay for the best components, such as you see in electric cars manufactured by the big and established brands, because everyone is trying to get the MSRP as low as possible to attract customers who are comparing electric motorcycle prices with gas-powered prices. Plus, electric motorcycle manufacturers rarely have the resources to be able to attract the best component manufacturers - with the exception of H-D, of course.

I might add that I have no knowledge regarding Sondors products, perhaps they are an exception.  ???
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Arschloch

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Reply #57 on: June 23, 2022, 09:55:15 pm
I've never seen an successful manufacturer to pay the extra for the "best" parts available ever. Pretty sure even Öhlins source their parts for the products they sell by an compromise between functional necessity and cost. It's the conceptual design that makes them excell on the racetrack which is an advertising point if you like to pay the extra for the premium functionality and quality, not exactly needed on a day to day work horse.


Richard230

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Reply #58 on: June 23, 2022, 10:25:45 pm
BTW, one example of how things don't always work out for startup EV manufacturers, are Zero's 2012 electric motorcycles. Their entire production of 2012 motorcycles (about 200 that year) was recalled in 2018 due to a few of the bikes catching fire when being charged. See the attached letter that I received for my 2012 Zero, which I had given to my daughter when I bought a 2014 Zero S (which she still has and is running fine - with a replacement AC charger). She sold the 2012 back to Zero for $6,400, which she used to help fund the down payment on the home that they were buying at the time. Zero came to her home, picked it up and gave her a check.
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GlennF

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Reply #59 on: June 23, 2022, 11:56:52 pm
Buy backs of problem product lines that simply are not very good, are not that unusual:

https://airfactsjournal.com/2018/01/why-the-starship-was-such-a-disaster/#:~:text=Beech%20built%2053%20Starships%20and,the%20tiny%20but%20complex%20fleet.
Quote
Beech built 53 Starships and only a handful were sold. The rest were leased because almost nobody wanted to sign on for an open-ended conventional ownership. In the end Beech tried to buy back all of the Starships to put a couple in museums and destroy the rest to end the cost of supporting the tiny but complex fleet.



Richard230

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Reply #60 on: June 24, 2022, 12:57:13 am
Well, that is a nice looking aircraft. Too bad it was a financial dud.
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GlennF

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Reply #61 on: June 24, 2022, 01:33:41 am
Well, that is a nice looking aircraft. Too bad it was a financial dud.

It looks fantastic.

It just was not a practical or economical airplane to run, and when you are buying an aircraft where just the two engines (1200 HP Pratt and Whitney PT6) are close to a million dollars each in todays money, well practical and economical become somewhat important factors.  The Starship cost around $4 million back in the day and would sell for closer to 10 million if available new today. When spending that sort of money, the looks are optional,  it needs to earn it's keep.

People were basically better off buying a King Air at the time, similar performance and less maintenance hassles, and that is exactly what most people did.

Roy Norris when he shutdown production was quoted as saying “I made myself a promise that there would be no more airplanes that look like Klingon battle cruisers.”

These days a Socata TBM can pretty much outperform a Starship at a fraction of the purchase price and running costs.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 01:49:15 am by GlennF »


Richard230

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Reply #62 on: June 24, 2022, 02:08:47 pm
As usual, money and practicality will win the consumer market in the long run.  But personally, I kind of like Klingon battle cruisers.   ;)
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GlennF

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Reply #63 on: June 24, 2022, 02:58:40 pm
The Starship was a bit like the Toyota LFA.

The people that wanted one could not afford it.   The people with the money to buy one wanted something more traditional.

LFA setting a class lap record at  Nürburgring ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fVY05-ouzM
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 03:02:03 pm by GlennF »


Richard230

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Reply #64 on: June 26, 2022, 02:03:04 pm
Here is the latest news regarding the Sondors Metacycle. Apparently it is on the move. But where are their dealers:  https://electrek.co/2022/06/26/sondors-metacycle-electric-motorcycle-shipping/
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axman88

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Reply #65 on: August 14, 2022, 02:54:14 am
Sondors promised the first highway speed capable E-motorcycle to go into full production at a price point of
$5000.  The promised specs are in the first post of this thread.

Storm Sondors used "Go fund me" type financing to get the first production going.  He had done this to launch his successful E-bicycle business, first customers to commit were rewarded with lower pricing.

Customers paid down $100 to reserve a spot, then half the machine's cost a while later.   Many backed out at this point, and many more changed their mind later as the months stretched on and there was no sign of delivery. 

Some even said that the whole deal was a sham, that rows of half built machines shown in the few photos that Sondors posted  were just a few prototypes, expertly  Photoshopped to look like many.

But, it seems that Sondors has finally delivered their new product.  Video reviews from new owners have started popping up on U-Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG0swm5jz4M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOG5dfTwhIE
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 02:57:16 am by axman88 »


Arschloch

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Reply #66 on: August 14, 2022, 08:59:54 am
Beautiful, price is great. I'll wait though until our paying the balance gob. starts distributing them for free.


Richard230

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Reply #67 on: August 14, 2022, 01:49:15 pm
A couple of years ago there was another freeway-legal electric motorcycle startup that claimed to have high performance, long range, low weight and a price that was much lower than other current models. Not only did they show a Chinese factory that they said was building their bikes, but they also produced videos of customers that had received their new bikes and showed them being ridden around town. At one point they also showed a photo of their local "factory" with a row of bikes under construction in the background. Then the entire operation seemed to just vaporize along leaving their customers' deposits twisting in the wind.

In that case, I have the feeling that the videos were produced by their employees claiming to be new customers and likely showed a handful of poorly hand-built prototypes that they produced before the rats slipped back into their hole getting ready for the next big thing. I no longer trust electric motorcycle startup claims until I actually see their products on a showroom floor and supported by an established motorcycle shop with an owner who has a throat that you can get your hands around if necessary.  ;)

The Sondors Metacycle looks nice as to their performance claims and retail price. But I will let someone else be a beta-tester customer, until I know that the company is going to hang in there for the long haul.  ???
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axman88

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Reply #68 on: August 14, 2022, 09:48:03 pm
A couple of years ago there was another freeway-legal electric motorcycle startup that claimed to have high performance, long range, low weight and a price that was much lower than other current models.
I don't know if I'd call Sondors a "start-up".  They have been manufacturing E-bicycles since 2015.  Storm Sondors entered the market when top end e-bicycles were selling for $3k plus, and sold his for $1299, which had a beneficial effect on pricing for consumers all across the marketplace.  It's difficult to find sales figures, but I have found claims that about 17,000 units of Sondors E-bicycle had been sold by 2016, and there's been another 5-1/2 years of sales since.

It seems that buying a Sondors in 2022 is about the same  level of "buying from a start-up" as buying a Zero motorcycle was in 2012.

Sondors made the claim in 12/'21 that their new Metacycle had already SOLD more units than Zero and HD, but none of the three companies has released hard sales figures that I've seen.   Earlier this year I saw a figure of less than 2000 units total cumulative sales for Livewire.  Perhaps you have some info on Zero's average yearly output these days?

Sondors certainly hasn't delivered a lot of E-motos yet, but I think they will, even though the price has already been increased to $6500.  And I've seen reports that other manufacturers have already stepped forward to provide competitive products in the lower priced end of the E-moto market.

As for the Metacycle videos being fabrications, I'm very skeptical.   For one thing Sondors, according to finance documents available online, has a TINY US staff.  Also, maybe I'm old fashioned, but it's hard for me to imagine that an employee of the company would make the statement that the product's seat "squishes your balls".

https://youtu.be/R8fkCzvfWTY?t=450

Not the kind of language one expects from a shill.


Richard230

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Reply #69 on: August 14, 2022, 10:02:43 pm
All of Zero's entire production of 2012 S and DS models (about 200) were recalled in 2018 when they started to catch on fire during charging. Zero blamed the battery cell supplier, EIG, and in return they blamed Zero for their design and assembly of the cells into the battery packs. I don't know who ended up footing the bill for the recall costs.

No one knows how many motorcycles that Zero produces and sells each year, as it is a deeply held secret by the company that they don't have to divulge as they are not publicly traded. However, some countries in Europe will publish sales figures for electric motorcycles, like France and the UK, but not the U.S. or Canada, who don't seem too interested in the subject.
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