Author Topic: Build thread for my 865  (Read 26728 times)

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Jared_Lee

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Reply #60 on: November 14, 2020, 08:34:14 pm
Thanks, Ace. That was super helpful. It seems from your explanation that the 750 will interact with the stock engine head better than the 865 as it doesn't change the displacement as significantly. I'm guessing it's not quite as simple as all that, but being closer in displacement would seem to align its breathing closer to the 650 than the 865 from 650 transition. I would love to see more about the end results using stock engine heads and throttle bodies, but it's just not out there at this point, at least not that I've seen.

NV, thanks for the link. I've watched that as well. They didn't provide any evidence that the motor was or will be working at a high level with smooth power bands. I understand they are professionals and from their total process transparency, I would expect nothing less. I just wanted to ask some questions here to see if there were any opinions about running that 865 with stock throttle bodies, no port work, etc. But yeah, the setup they put together is just about exactly what I have in mind. I wish they could have shown the dyno results on that build. I'm so curious.

Speaking again to their professional appearance, if I had a shop like Revelry Cycles in New York, I would definitely follow their lead. In my experience thus far, the two RE dealers and service centers in NYC are disorganized at best. That isn't exactly a vote of confidence for trusting their navigation through uncharted waters.


NVDucati

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Reply #61 on: November 14, 2020, 08:43:31 pm


NV, thanks for the link. I've watched that as well. They didn't provide any evidence that the motor was or will be working at a high level with smooth power bands. I understand they are professionals and from their total process transparency, I would expect nothing less. I just wanted to ask some questions here to see if there were any opinions about running that 865 with stock throttle bodies, no port work, etc. But yeah, the setup they put together is just about exactly what I have in mind. I wish they could have shown the dyno results on that build. I'm so curious.

Speaking again to their professional appearance, if I had a shop like Revelry Cycles in New York, I would definitely follow their lead. In my experience thus far, the two RE dealers and service centers in NYC are disorganized at best. That isn't exactly a vote of confidence for trusting their navigation through uncharted waters.
Yeah, NYC. As you likely know, dealerships are rarely engine builders. Maybe you can ping S&S and see if there is anyone fairly near you who has bought / installed multiple kits.
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Jared_Lee

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Reply #62 on: November 14, 2020, 09:20:51 pm
Yeah, if it's just (relative statement, I know) bore the cylinder, swap the cam and tune the EFI, I have a shop I trust for that. If it's engineering port angles and custom designed head work, that'd be a no-go. And the shop I have in mind is an official S&S parts dealer that does fantastic engine work. Fabrication? That's another story. They butchered my partner's '76 CB750 on a simple frame hoop and custom fender job.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #63 on: November 16, 2020, 12:42:47 am
After about a month of waiting my machine shop called and told me there still working on getting my cyl bore liners pressed in

It is supposed to be complicated


Jared_Lee

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Reply #64 on: December 13, 2020, 04:31:02 am
I'm still exploring options. Santina at Revelry was kind enough to offer some advice. She recommended that for an around town and highway motorcycle, just fitting the high-compression pistons with s&s cam and Powertronic tuner would be most suitable. That prices out about $3k by Brooklyn shop prices. I've also asked what their engine builder can tell me about how well aspirated the stock setup it for the bore and stroke figures on the 750 kit. Still waiting on a response there. But for the 865 without head, valve and throttle body work, you're sacrificing about 15-20 hp.

I know this thread is specific to your build gremlinsteve, but I figured we could keep the conversation about engine build content here while we wait for progress updates on yours.


ace.cafe

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Reply #65 on: December 13, 2020, 06:15:48 am
I'm still exploring options. Santina at Revelry was kind enough to offer some advice. She recommended that for an around town and highway motorcycle, just fitting the high-compression pistons with s&s cam and Powertronic tuner would be most suitable. That prices out about $3k by Brooklyn shop prices. I've also asked what their engine builder can tell me about how well aspirated the stock setup it for the bore and stroke figures on the 750 kit. Still waiting on a response there. But for the 865 without head, valve and throttle body work, you're sacrificing about 15-20 hp.

I know this thread is specific to your build gremlinsteve, but I figured we could keep the conversation about engine build content here while we wait for progress updates on yours.
It all comes down to breathing.
You are going to get the power that the breathing will permit. Basically, you will run out of power when it runs out of breath. It will happen at lower rpms with bigger displacement unless it breathes better.
The cam lets it breathe more by extending the time the valve is open, and how far the valve is open. But port flow work lets more air in during the whole valve cycle, if it done right.
As you noted, a combination of both typically works out best if the cam/port match is good.

The higher compression piston is needed with the cam because of the later intake valve closing that the cam has. The later that the intake valve closes, the shorter the effective compression stroke is, after the intake valve is sealed. So, a piston with more static compression ratio makes up for that, which really helps out especially in the low and mid rpms.

Also, the bigger displacement will give higher compression to the extent that more cylinder volume of air gets compressed into the same size combustion chamber. So take that into account as well.

The 650 currently peaks hp at around 6500 rpm. If you bump displacement to 750, that needs about a 15% breathing increase to keep the hp peak at 6500. If you want to peak hp at higher rpms, then more breathing is needed.

Steve bumped the max port flow about 15%, and put the cam in.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 06:40:11 am by ace.cafe »
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Jared_Lee

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Reply #66 on: December 14, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
Thanks, Ace. So I guess my curiosity here is in relationship to the 15% increase. I'm calculating that the 15% increase needed in airflow is related to the 15% increase in volumetric combustion: 650cc vs. 750cc ~ 14.4% difference. I have absolutely no idea what airflow increase is possible using the combination of cam, high flow air filter and free flow exhaust. Is it possible that the net gain in airflow is near the 15% increase necessary to allow the 750 to fully breathe? Is net airflow even the total picture or is port airflow specifically a figure that requires 15% gain in order for the 750 to properly breathe? Or I guess another way of looking at it, does all that airflow potential created by cam, air filter and exhaust get choked by the stock port size preventing a net 15% increase?

As always, your input is much appreciated. I think I'm learning quite a bit and getting a better handle on what's involved here. Thanks again for taking the time.


ace.cafe

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Reply #67 on: December 14, 2020, 08:58:03 pm
Okay, its a little bit technical, but I'll try to make it understandable.

First, yes, the 15% airflow increase is based on about 15% displacement increase. Its a ballpark figure because I just used Steve's max flow figures vs the stock max flow figures. In reality there is a flow curve over the range of valve lift that I didn't calculate in my post above. A shot from the hip, as it were. Everything I write here is estimates, which I suspect would be pretty close to reality, but not guaranteed.

Anyway, that is the basic jist of it if standard cams were still used, and the modded ports gave the extra 15% airflow. It should allow the rpm range to be around the same as when it was a 650 with stock airflow.

When you put cams into the mix, things get interactive. The cam profile dictates a lot of the behavior, and in the case of the S&S cam, it has longer duration at both ends of the intake cycle, so it gives capacity to rev higher from that, plus give more torque from higher valve lift.  The overall flow into the cylinder increases from longer open time and higher lift giving more flow(assuming the port isn't maxxed out at lower lift). So, this can give more revs and torque overall, even with the same port as before, as long as the port isn't dramatically undersized. If you increase the port flow by 15%, AND add a cam like S&S, it should be able to reach a higher peak torque and peak power figure at somewhat higher rpms than before the cam was added.

Now comes the port/cam match.
It is common to think that just making the port a lot larger will do the job, but that isn't the best way to approach it unless max rpm power is the only goal. If you want good throttle response and power delivery over the full range, then you have to pay attention to port/cam match. This basically means to make the port big enough, but not too big, to reach the desired goal.

General theory is that inlet tracts want to be as uniform as possible, without unnecessary changes in port cross-section or diameter which cause changes in airspeed up/down as the air flows in. So, you can look at your throttle body diameter, and that should be your maximum cross-sectional area, keep it all the same as possible up to a point where there is something physical preventing that, or you can make a small reduction in cross-sectional area right around the injector spray area to get the speed up in that area for atomization. Your minimum cross-sectional area(MCSA) will ultimately determine how fast the port can flow before reaching a "choking" speed where it can't flow any faster than that. That is the point where you have reached torque peak of max flow into the engine. After that point, port speed is high enough to give more inertia filling, or "ramcharging" effects after BDC while the valve is still open. The later the valve stays open, the longer the inertia filling can take place, and it keeps filling in more and more at the end of the cycle until it can't do it any more, and there you reach peak hp rpm. Then the tq is falling faster than rpm can increase, so your hp also drops off fairly quickly after that, just like you see on a dyno chart.

So if you are retaining the stock 34mm throttle body size, that is pretty much going to set your max port size and speeds, and the cam duration with its overlap and intake valve closing timing is going to set how far the engine will rev past peak tq rpm before reaching peak hp rpm. The longer the valve is open after BDC, the more revs are theoretically possible from a breathing viewpoint.

The port/cam match is a combo that gives a small enough port to keep port speeds up decently at lower rpms so that you don't lose too much grunt down low, but still is big enough to reach your high rpm goals. A big port flows slower, so that is the symptom you see in some race bikes that are dogs at low rpms. Conversely too small a port limits your overall intake flow so you can't reach your high rpm goals.

So, as I already mentioned, if you are sticking with the stock throttle body size, you are gonna basically define your max port cross-sectional area by that dimension. Minimum CSA will probably be around the injector spray area, and then it will expand a bit into the bowls behind the valves. That's the general idea.

The cam profile is already set by S&S so it is what it is. Likely that there will be plenty enough port speeds for snappy throttle at all rpms with a 34mm TB and a good porting job.

4 valve heads can often use throat area as much as 91% of the valve diameter. Do a multi-angle valve job with 15° or less change in angle at each cut.

If you do plan to keep 34mm TB size, I would take a close look at what Steve is doing because he is straightening out the port for more flow and using the cams along with it to work with the higher port speeds ABDC. I think that is a sound scientific approach for a street bike application. Of course, free flow intake and exhaust is also part of any performance package.


I hope that was okay to understand.
:)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 09:23:30 pm by ace.cafe »
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Blazes Boylan

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Reply #68 on: December 14, 2020, 10:40:30 pm
This is an incredibly interesting/informative thread and much much appreciated.  I stumbled on Revelry Cycles YouTube channel after their first video and have been following it avidly ever since.  A question to Jared: do you mind mentioning the name of the shop in NYC you trust to install the big bore kit? Thanks to all.


Gremlinsteve

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Reply #69 on: December 15, 2020, 02:46:03 am
So happy that my thread is helping people
I plan on using my stock throttle bodies
While a limiting factor it should make for quick acceleration and such

Throttle response should be outstanding


Jared_Lee

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Reply #70 on: December 15, 2020, 02:49:18 am
Yeah Boylan, Frank at Motorgrrl is an expert engine builder. Just be wary of cosmetic fabrication. Frank has no part in that, but my experiences have not been good. For engine build performance, Frank should do you right.


Jared_Lee

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Reply #71 on: December 15, 2020, 02:56:02 am
And yes, Ace, that was again super helpful. I definitely feel like I've got a better grasp on how it all fits together and the important points of interaction within the engine. I'm not really any clearer on what this specific engine's ports are capable of once fitted with the performance cam and how that would work with the 750 kit, but I understand that's not really the information you're trying to provide. You're giving the more important fundamental concepts that govern the "how" of those things functioning together for optimal performance. That's actually more useful because I can carry that with me to future bikes and considerations.

And yes, Steve, this is exactly the type of conversation I want to be having in a forum like this. Thank you for starting the thread and sharing your build process and knowledge.


ace.cafe

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Reply #72 on: December 15, 2020, 03:34:14 am
And yes, Ace, that was again super helpful. I definitely feel like I've got a better grasp on how it all fits together and the important points of interaction within the engine. I'm not really any clearer on what this specific engine's ports are capable of once fitted with the performance cam and how that would work with the 750 kit, but I understand that's not really the information you're trying to provide. You're giving the more important fundamental concepts that govern the "how" of those things functioning together for optimal performance. That's actually more useful because I can carry that with me to future bikes and considerations.

And yes, Steve, this is exactly the type of conversation I want to be having in a forum like this. Thank you for starting the thread and sharing your build process and knowledge.
Jared,
I can't give accurate numbers on this cam with stock port information because I just haven't tested the combo.

I can give Steve's flow chart info of 166 cfm peak on the stock intake port, which is the more critical port to look at. The stock bike peaks about 42 rear wheel hp at 6500 rpm with that port.

Add the 750 kit with pistons and cam on the same stock head and as a guesstimate, I would say maybe around 50 rwhp, off the top of my head. Very rough guesstimate.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 03:44:30 am by ace.cafe »
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Blazes Boylan

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Reply #73 on: December 17, 2020, 03:18:37 pm
I've got a related if novice question for you guys.  At what point would you feel the need to upgrade the clutch?  In a separate vein, I'm hoping Revelry Cycles does a video at some point on their big valve cylinder head.


zimmemr

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Reply #74 on: December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 pm
I've got a related if novice question for you guys.  At what point would you feel the need to upgrade the clutch?  In a separate vein, I'm hoping Revelry Cycles does a video at some point on their big valve cylinder head.

Without trying to sound like a wise ass, which isn't my intention, the short answer is when it slips. I'd think the stock clutch could certainly withstand an increase in both torque and horsepower of 10 to 15% right off the bat. Back in the day I built a few big bore/stroker motors out of XL 350 Honda's for dirt track use. I ran both 412 and 420 motors, which made considerably more power than the the stockers, and always ran stock clutches and springs with no problems. If I were building an 865 motor, I think I'd be inclined to upgrade the clutch and most certainly the springs, but if you told me the stock clutch worked fine with the 750 kit, I'd have no problem believing you. I think the bigger issue would concern how the bike is used. Drag racing is a killer, but for normal street riding, especially on a bike as low geared as the Interceptor I think the stock clutch might work fine, at least until it didn't.

But that's just my semi-educated opinion, like you I'm curious to hear what anyone that's actually built a big motor has to say.