[AzCal Retred]

All this applies to Carrier Group defense too.

How Hamas overwhelmed Israel’s Iron Dome

https://asiatimes.com/2023/10/how-hamas-overwhelmed-israels-iron-dome/

Israel has at least 10 Iron Dome batteries in operation, each containing 60 to 80 interceptor missiles. Each of those missiles costs about US$60,000. In previous attacks involving smaller numbers of missiles and rockets, Iron Dome was 90% effective against a range of threats.
So, why was the system less effective against the recent Hamas attacks?
It is a simple question of numbers. Hamas fired several thousand missiles, and Israel had less than a thousand interceptors in the field ready to counter them. Even if Iron Dome was 100% effective against the incoming threats, the very large number of the Hamas-launched missiles meant some were going to get through.

First, there is the need for a much deeper arsenal of defensive weapons that can address very large numbers of missile threats. Second, the cost per defensive weapon needs to be reduced significantly.
This episode is likely to accelerate the development and deployment of directed energy air defense systems based on high-energy lasers and high-power microwaves. These devices are sometimes described as having an “infinite magazine,” because they have a relatively low cost per shot fired and can keep firing as long as they are supplied with electrical power.

Deal of the Century 1983
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085412/
" Particle beam weapons, that's the future..."

[AzCal Retred]

US Navy destroyer in Red Sea shoots down cruise missiles potentially headed toward Israel
The missiles were fired by Iranian-backed Houthi militia in Yemen, the DOD said.
By Luis Martinez October 19, 2023

https://abcnews.go.com/International/security-incident-involving-us-navy-destroyer-red-sea/story?id=104147141

The USS Carney, a U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer in the northern Red Sea, on Thursday shot down multiple missiles and drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen that the Pentagon said were potentially headed toward targets in Israel.

It is the first time in recent memory that a U.S. Navy ship in the Middle East has engaged missiles and drones that were not directly aimed at the vessel.

It's also the first U.S. military action taken to defend Israel in the current crisis and with the U.S. and other countries trying to contain the conflict between Israel and Hamas, the possibility that an Iranian-backed proxy group fired missiles and drones at Israel is sure to increase growing regional tensions.

The ship was in the northern Red Sea on Thursday evening local time when it intercepted three land attack cruise missiles and several drones, Pentagon spokesman Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said at a press briefing. U.S. officials told ABC News that the Carney had brought down eight drones launched by the Houthis.

[GlennF]

Interesting that the US navy is permitted to shoot down missiles headed towards Israel in the Red Sea but is not deployed to shoot down missiles headed towards the Ukraine in the black Sea.

[AzCal Retred]

There you go, spilling those national secrets again!

Now that you have brought it up however...I'll bet this example wasn't lost on the Ukrainians. Maybe the Black Sea will be collecting more shrapnel soon? I'm certain there wouldn't be any Ukrainian complaints regarding shoot-downs over their territory.

[Leofric]

Interesting that the US navy is permitted to shoot down missiles headed towards Israel in the Red Sea but is not deployed to shoot down missiles headed towards the Ukraine in the black Sea.

Good point.

[AzCal Retred]

Iran is all queued up to at least try to chew up a couple carrier groups in their personal bathtub, very likely with Chinese & Russian help. I'm thinking that will be the actual toggle point for a wider conflict.

The folks running Gaza can't possibly have been unaware of the effect that a large scale raid on Israel would have. I'm guessing that the results are perking along as desired. When more missiles soon start flying in from nearby islamic countries the USN will need to target the command & control agencies within these countries, there will just be too many to physically respond to. THEN the S _ _ t will truly hit the fan. Russia and China are aching for a practical weapons test opportunity, Iran wants to leverage the "Great Satan" off their back. The only bright spot is that Ukraine (remember Ukraine?) will likely finally get an Air Cap/no-fly zone after the shooting starts. This time around the Israelis are creating the "Arch Duke Ferdinand" moment.
"The War is Good Business. Invest Your Son"

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-gaza-war-syria-lebanon-916edd66e3af095d49e5ba1c59d90c2a

[Leofric]

Iran is all queued up to at least try to chew up a couple carrier groups in their personal bathtub, very likely with Chinese & Russian help. I'm thinking that will be the actual toggle point for a wider conflict.

The folks running Gaza can't possibly have been unaware of the effect that a large scale raid on Israel would have. I'm guessing that the results are perking along as desired. When more missiles soon start flying in from nearby islamic countries the USN will need to target the command & control agencies within these countries, there will just be too many to physically respond to. THEN the S _ _ t will truly hit the fan. Russia and China are aching for a practical weapons test opportunity, Iran wants to leverage the "Great Satan" off their back. The only bright spot is that Ukraine (remember Ukraine?) will likely finally get an Air Cap/no-fly zone after the shooting starts. This time around the Israelis are creating the "Arch Duke Ferdinand" moment.
"The War is Good Business. Invest Your Son"

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-gaza-war-syria-lebanon-916edd66e3af095d49e5ba1c59d90c2a

I am afraid you could be right.
How many enemies can the USA fight simultaneously ?!

[AzCal Retred]

It depends on who's joining in. So far only the OpFor seems to have a plan. The technical end will be interesting too, as it will depend on coordinating land, sea, air & space resources. IF China doesn't preempt the battlefield electronics we'll have a chance. The hard part is if it drags on. China's military ground forces vastly exceed ours. A prolonged conflict means it will devolve to grunts with rifles. A lot of things will have to go right.

[GlennF]

Huge kill ratios in your favor (as the US found out in 'nam and the Ukrainians are finding out right now) are no guarantee of success in a war.

[AzCal Retred]

The media lack of understanding about the civilian population in Gaza astounds me. They live in overcrowded squalor, are governed by religious wingnut idiots, and now about 1.5 million are being made homeless by Israeli bombing. They are reported on by wealthy journalists & personalities like they were affluent New York residents. "How does this make you feel?" "What's life like?" There is a lot of first person TV time spent on Israeli family members that were butchered out, but the folks in Gaza have now suffered about 5x the civilian casualties. It's not like the general population had any say in the recent attack. I'm not seeing that there are going to be any "hearts & minds" won over here. Joining up with Hamas would likely seem the only way to push back for the average guy. As far as I know Hamas provides a stipend "death benefit" when you are killed "for the cause".

The videos of the 14-25 year old terroristas swarming into Israel looked more like they were more just having a jolly good old time than they were concerned with imminent death. I'm not seeing that a "Shock & Awe" campaign will have the intended effect on a population that has been living continuously under war conditions for 60 years. Looks more like the civilians are just enduring yet another horror show staged by others in their backyard.

The "We'll wipe out Hamas" rhetoric is pretty empty. At best they can flatten the North end of Gaza, collapse and/or flood the tunnel network there and bulldoze the whole sorry mess into the sea as a jetty. That will remove the neighborhood hiding places for rocket launching and push the tunnel network back a few miles. But adding a 2-3 mile buffer zone on a homemade rocket with a +10 mile current range isn't really winning. It definitely doesn't mean anything to the 150 mile range hardware supplied by "others". Creating a 1.5 million person homeless population certainly won't slow the hiring ability of Hamas & others. I'm betting when the Gaza residents hear "wipe out Hamas" they're thinking what's really meant is  "wipe out Gaza". There are no good outcomes here, I think they are way too far down the rabbit hole.

[Leofric]

It depends on who's joining in. So far only the OpFor seems to have a plan. The technical end will be interesting too, as it will depend on coordinating land, sea, air & space resources. IF China doesn't preempt the battlefield electronics we'll have a chance. The hard part is if it drags on. China's military ground forces vastly exceed ours. A prolonged conflict means it will devolve to grunts with rifles. A lot of things will have to go right.

We're right behind you (as usual !)

[Leofric]

The media lack of understanding about the civilian population in Gaza astounds me. They live in overcrowded squalor, are governed by religious wingnut idiots, and now about 1.5 million are being made homeless by Israeli bombing. They are reported on by wealthy journalists & personalities like they were affluent New York residents. "How does this make you feel?" "What's life like?" There is a lot of first person TV time spent on Israeli family members that were butchered out, but the folks in Gaza have now suffered about 5x the civilian casualties. It's not like the general population had any say in the recent attack. I'm not seeing that there are going to be any "hearts & minds" won over here. Joining up with Hamas would likely seem the only way to push back for the average guy. As far as I know Hamas provides a stipend "death benefit" when you are killed "for the cause".

The videos of the 14-25 year old terroristas swarming into Israel looked more like they were more just having a jolly good old time than they were concerned with imminent death. I'm not seeing that a "Shock & Awe" campaign will have the intended effect on a population that has been living continuously under war conditions for 60 years. Looks more like the civilians are just enduring yet another horror show staged by others in their backyard.

The "We'll wipe out Hamas" rhetoric is pretty empty. At best they can flatten the North end of Gaza, collapse and/or flood the tunnel network there and bulldoze the whole sorry mess into the sea as a jetty. That will remove the neighborhood hiding places for rocket launching and push the tunnel network back a few miles. But adding a 2-3 mile buffer zone on a homemade rocket with a +10 mile current range isn't really winning. It definitely doesn't mean anything to the 150 mile range hardware supplied by "others". Creating a 1.5 million person homeless population certainly won't slow the hiring ability of Hamas & others. I'm betting when the Gaza residents hear "wipe out Hamas" they're thinking what's really meant is  "wipe out Gaza". There are no good outcomes here, I think they are way too far down the rabbit hole.

America and Britain are hypocrites saying Israel must do everything to avoid civilian casualties while backing Israel and knowing bombing of Gaza will kill civilians , and then providing aid to Gaza.

[AzCal Retred]

Awww...y'all be say'n thet cuz we passed the "Hague Invasion Act" to keep the ICC off our back.

https://www.diplomatic-council.org/node/432#:~:text=What's%20more%3A%20ever%20since%20the,'The%20Hague%20Invasion%20Act'.

Although the ICC is supported by as much as 123 member states, including all countries from the European Union, it hasn’t succeeded in getting the United States, Russia, China, India and Israel on board. What's more: ever since the court began operations in 2002 the United States has taken several measures to make sure no American will ever be brought to justice in The Hague. In that year US Congress passed the American Service-Members' Protection Act, nicknamed 'The Hague Invasion Act'.

[AzCal Retred]

Here's a possibility: forward this or a reworked version to your Federal representatives of choice, maybe it'll get to someone that decides. I don't see any good outcome if IDF soldiers go underground. Flooding tunnels to force out occupants and destroy hardware can work because the ocean is very close. Supplying Gaza hospitals with electricity from their southern grid seems doable and isn't easily hijacked for other uses. So far the IDF seems to be locked into a Fallujah style urban battle with extensive "tunnel rat" overtones. This is unnecessary in 2023.
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The Gaza conflict isn't a football game, it's warfare. Change the rules to benefit the Israelis, not the OpFor.

There is ZERO reason to enter the tunnels of Gaza. There's an ocean a mile away. Set up pipe & pumps, flood the tunnels. It's not that hard. There are NO technical hurdles, just pumps and piping. When the tunnels are full of salt water the Hamas electronics, hardware & ammo are instant junk. The rats will come to the surface. There's no valid reason to serve up IDF soldiers as targets to Hamas.

Navy ships routinely provide shore power. A barge with generators or an old Navy ship can supply some hospital power without sending Hamas liquid fuel. It's just some jacketed cable to a nearby substation and some switching. Again, not "Rocket Surgery", just standing practice.

This is all just normal power gen tech & practice, moving bulk water & power.

Egypt already provides 30 MW to Gaza, it's on the "unbombed" end.

Israel provides 120 MW to Gaza, the Israelis likely didn't bomb their own power distribution.

Hospitals use maybe 5 MW each. The existing electrical distribution system can be switched to drop non-essential loads. Supply the hospitals only.

Distributing fuel generates infrared hot spots, this makes it easier for any Hamas generators to blend in. Many US based underground drug grow operations are discovered when the commercial supply is interrupted and their diesel generation gets fired up. Supplying ONLY electricity stops that.

Please forward this to the appropriate  "deciders". There is ZERO reason to send IDF soldiers underground. As explained before, flooding the tunnels neutralizes this problem. Providing electrical power ONLY to to hospitals is within the existing grid capacity and isn't prone to extracurricular uses.

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[GlennF]

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/op-iron-sword-israel-faces-vietnam-trap-as-tunnel-labyrinth-under/

Op Iron Sword: Israel Faces ‘Vietnam Trap’ As Tunnel Labyrinth Under Gaza Could Be IDF’s Biggest Challenge
By Ritu Sharma -October 13, 202

To be brutally honest the closest analogy to the Gaza tunnels is the Warsaw Uprising, fought from tunnels under Warsaw, in 1944.

Ironically the Warsaw Uprising was a blockaded Jewish ghetto fighting the Third Reich and it failed because the allies (both US and Soviet for different reasons)  refused to support it with air drops. 

The Soviets refused because they preferred a subjugated Warsaw when the tanks rolled  into town, not an independent Polish Speaking Jewish controlled Warsaw likely to cause them headaches.

The US refused because they felt the uprising was bound to fail, or at best would end up under Soviet control anyway, and was hence a waste of precious resources.