[AzCal Retred]

There's an ocean handy, you won't run out of water. It won't take much pipe. Very large portable Diesel driven pumps are readily available. The Israelis have D9 Teddy Bear "Battle Cats" to make a route with. Just the idea that their vaunted tunnel system was going to be indefensibly filled with salt water would change the game entirely. Hamas strategy is based around these tunnels. This is way better than sending a voluntary army underground.

[GlennF]

I do not think the people of Gaza actually see the tunnels as a "strategy" to destroy israel, rather they see them as a necessary evil without which they are at the whims of the Right Wing Zionist/Nationalist Israel Government (that even many Israeli citizens see as extremist), a government that pre 2010 even banned  things like toilet paper, wheel chairs and musical instruments.

Apparently Gazans in wheel chairs, trailing toilet paper and loudly blowing trumpets are a major threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_imports#:~:text=Household%20items.,BBC%20lists%20it%20as%20permitted.

[AzCal Retred]

It's NOT the "people of Gaza (Gazanians?) " causing the problem, they are mostly just working folks: teachers, housekeepers, gardeners, plumbers, construction workers, etc.. I can't really see them tithing & having bake sales to buy Ham-ass more trouble-causing Radio Shack rocket motor bits and bricks of Dupont C4, I think the "big money" comes from outside Gaza. The Gazanians view tunnels to Egypt much as we do our freeways, just all-weather transport routes. A freeway doesn't care if you are carrying toilet paper, Barbie Dolls or a case of Kalashnikovs. In war the first thing you do is interdict/disrupt/destroy lines of resupply. Ham-ass has spend hundreds of millions building war infrastructure tunnels instead of attending to the needs of the general population. The people of Gaza are viewed as disposable pawns by Ham-ass.

I can guarantee that if there was a country attached to the USA firing rockets into Los Angeles or Minneapolis there would immediately be a large sterilized patch within & all around wherever the rockets originated from. Firing rockets, mortars & artillery onto someone else's dirt pile is an act of war. The first guy to shoot is the "instigator", and a state of war means rational discussion is over.

It's rather incumbent on whomever is living on that dirt pile to control any aggressive moves towards others. The Gazanians either can't or won't. Either way, the harsh reality is that if you are standing around the location from where the munitions originated, there's an excellent chance you'll be swept up in the ensuing carnage. There's NO WAY an operation like the Has-assed eejits pulled off was unnoticed. Everyone there knows clearly what happens when you poke the bear. A phone call would have prevented this charade from happening. Of the thousands of people that had foreknowledge of the attack, nobody called. You would think the Mayor of Gaza would have done so out of consideration & empathy for the citizenry he's responsible for.

[Leofric]

It's rather incumbent on whomever is living on that dirt pile to control any aggressive moves towards others. The Gazanians either can't or won't.
The ordinary people of Gaza  probably dare not do anything to control things  - they maybe would  if they were't under the control of a terrorist organisation.

[AzCal Retred]

That's a tough call, as they are being bombed south of Wadi Gaza where civilian non-combatants were supposed to be "safe". That sure isn't winning any hearts & minds. A desperate guy might try to gut out the nearby Hamas folks that initiated this latest mess, IF they had weapons and training. It's not like they have much to lose.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-general-assembly-convenes-emergency-meeting-on-gaza-news-item/

The useless cruelty of cutting off electricity as well as diesel needs addressing. Hospitals and desalination units run on electricity, not diesel. Electrical power is easily controlled and isn't very fungible. There's plenty of supply capacity there.

The lack of supplies is understandable if the truckers are being bombed whilst unloading.

This is a freakin' mess. It'll metastasize if not stopped. So far the active participants are operating in the "rabid dog" mindset.

[GlennF]

Hamas was democratically elected in 2006 basically on a platform of "It is about time we stood up for ourselves against the racist control over us by Israel".  In essence it was a "Make Palestine Great Again" platform.

The Catch 22 is the more Israel tries to control Gaza and the Palestinians the more support Hamas will get.  A right wing Zionist Israel is never going to live happily with a Palestine wanting independence from them.

[AzCal Retred]

Iranian Guard forces were hit in Syria, and Russian-ally-Syria can't be happy either. Iran isn't doing this alone. Attacking the carrier group is Iran's next move, it benefits Russia & Iran directly, China indirectly. Russia & China will provide back up to their ally. This is an entirely orchestrated scenario, Iran didn't just wake up a month back with a burr under their saddle. Things will really accelerate now.

One driver here is that China & Russia get to collect real-time info on US battle strategy, weapons & tactics. A carrier attack using massed shore-to-ship missiles would be very informative for these countries. A successful attack would be a PR & tactical windfall. Even rendering a carrier combat ineffective and having it pull out would be seen as a great victory. A significant loss of US Servicemen lives could have favorable political repercussions for these nations.

US fighter jets strike Iran-linked sites in Syria in retaliation for attacks on US troops; October 26, 2023

https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutionary-guard-af3c7a0f069b8c8b08f6feaa0e165d6a

U.S. fighter jets launched airstrikes early Friday on two locations in eastern Syria linked to Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps, the Pentagon said, in retaliation for a slew of drone and missile attacks against U.S. bases and personnel in the region that began early last week.
The U.S. strikes reflect the Biden administration’s determination to maintain a delicate balance. The U.S. wants to hit Iranian-backed groups suspected of targeting the U.S. as strongly as possible to deter future aggression, possibly fueled by Israel’s war against Hamas, while also working to avoid inflaming the region and provoking a wider conflict.
According to a senior U.S. military official, the precision strikes were carried out near Boukamal by two F-16 fighter jets, and they struck weapons and ammunition storage areas that were connected to the IRGC. The official said there had been Iranian-aligned militia and IRGC personnel on the base and no civilians, but the U.S. does not have any information yet on casualties or an assessment of damage. The official would not say how many munitions were launched by the F-16s.
A senior defense official said the sites were chosen because the IRGC stores the types of munitions there that were used in the strikes against U.S. bases and troops. The two officials briefed reporters after the strikes on condition of anonymity to provide details on the mission that had not yet been made public.According to the Pentagon, there have now been at least 19 attacks on U.S. bases and personnel in Iraq and Syria since Oct. 17, including three new ones Thursday. Air Force Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said 21 U.S. personnel were injured in two of those assaults that used drones to target al-Asad Airbase in Iraq and al-Tanf Garrison in Syria.
In a statement, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said the “precision self-defense strikes are a response to a series of ongoing and mostly unsuccessful attacks against U.S. personnel in Iraq and Syria by Iranian-backed militia groups that began on October 17.”
He said President Joe Biden directed the narrowly tailored strikes “to make clear that the United States will not tolerate such attacks and will defend itself, its personnel, and its interests.” And he added that the operation was separate and distinct from Israel’s war against Hamas.

[him a layin]

in the morning when i get up early and i see the reddish glow to the east beyond the horizon, i wait a while to see that it's not over yet. good, i've still got things i want to do, don't have time for this BS from fanatics. this might apply to the china and ukraine threads, too.

[AzCal Retred]

Explain how you can "threaten" eejits that have pledged to die. We now have 18% of our Carrier Groups in the Med bathtub & multiple destroyers & support craft in the Red Sea. Talk about a target rich environment for the OpFor...

U.S. Carrier Moves to Mediterranean, Middle East Aim to Contain Conflict, Says Pentagon Official

https://news.usni.org/2023/10/24/u-s-carrier-moves-to-mediterranean-middle-east-aim-to-contain-conflict-says-pentagon-official

Moving two American aircraft carrier strike groups to the eastern Mediterranean sends a signal to regional actors like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran not “to jump on this terrible bandwagon” of fighting that began with Hamas’ attack on Israel on Oct. 7, a senior Pentagon official said Tuesday.
Mara Karlin, performing the duties of deputy undersecretary of defense for policy, said the United States has taken the step of “sending not one, but two” carrier strike groups to contain the conflict. The U.S. has also sent Air Force fighter aircraft to Central Command and alerted Army combat units to be ready for deployment to the Middle East.
The Pentagon “was really focused on sending security assistance to Israel.” She added, “by Tuesday, were already delivering what they required” in terms of air defense and munitions. Hamas launched its attacks Saturday.
The U.N. quoting de facto authorities in Gaza and Israeli government officials estimated more than 5,000 have died since Oct. 7.

[AzCal Retred]

I guess the operating assumption here is that everyone in Gaza is a combatant or complicit in the attack on Israel, judging from the wide spread bomb strikes, communications blackout and choking off of aid. None of the surrounding countries are willing to take on 2 million refugees. Are the Israelis really intending to create a 1000:1 kill ratio? Jordan, Syria, Egypt & Lebanon have some tough questions to answer & decisions to make. The heavily moneyed players haven't physically stepped in yet. This doesn't look like a recoverable situation, whatever emerges after the dust settles will be very different.

Hostage negotiations appear to have stopped - Jeremy Bowen; 28 Oct. 2023
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67246680

[GlennF]

I guess the operating assumption here is that everyone in Gaza is a combatant or complicit in the attack on Israel, judging from the wide spread bomb strikes, communications blackout and choking off of aid.

No change there, that has been the ongoing Israel attitude to the Palestinian "problem" for at least half a century.

The only difference here is the proposed extent of the response.

There are no good and bad guys here, both sides are run by fanatics, Israel has created the problem all by itself with over half a century of repression and is even arguably responsible for creating the environment where Hamas could win an election.  Hamas themselves are total fanatics and their actions against Israel consistently push the Israeli government into taking an even harder stance.

[Leofric]

This doesn't look like a recoverable situation, whatever emerges after the dust settles will be very different.
The Israelis would turn on anybody who tries interfering in their affairs if the past is anything to go by, (Begin, Irgun ) even America or Britain possibly.

[AzCal Retred]

Starting to look to me that there IS a plan... 

Israel has no plan for Gaza after war ends, experts warn

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67248457

Israelis are all-but unanimous: Hamas must be defeated. The massacres of 7 October were simply too appalling. The organisation cannot ever again be allowed to rule over Gaza.
But Hamas, Dr Milshtein says, is an idea, not something Israel can simply erase.
"It's not like Berlin in 1945, when you stuck a flag over the Reichstag and that was that."
A better parallel, he says, is Iraq in 2003, where US-led forces attempted to remove all traces of Saddam Hussein's regime. "De-Baathification", as it was called, was a disaster. It left hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civil servants and members of the armed forces out of work, sowing the seeds for a devastating insurgency.
American veterans of that conflict are in Israel, talking to the Israeli military about their experiences in places like Falluja and Mosul. "I do hope they explain to the Israelis that they made some huge mistakes in Iraq," Dr Milshtein says.
"For example, to not have any illusion about eradicating the ruling party or changing the minds of people. That won't happen."
Palestinians agree.
"Hamas is a popular grassroots organisation," says Mustafa Barghouti, president of the Palestinian National Initiative. "If they want to remove Hamas, they'll need to ethnically cleanse all of Gaza."
That thought - that Israel secretly intends to force hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip and into neighbouring Egypt - is stirring the most deeply-rooted Palestinian fears.
For a population already largely made up of refugees - those who fled or were driven from their homes when Israel was founded - the thought of another mass exodus conjures memories of the traumatic events of 1948.
"Fleeing means a one-way ticket," says Diana Buttu, a former spokesperson for the Palestine Liberation Organisation. "It doesn't mean coming back."
Israeli commentators, including former senior officials, have made frequent reference to the need for Palestinians to be housed, temporarily, across the border in Sinai.
Giora Eiland, a former head of Israel's National Security Council, says the only way for Israel to achieve its military ambitions in Gaza without killing a lot of innocent Palestinians, is for civilians to evacuate Gaza.
"They should cross the border to Egypt," he says, "temporarily or permanently."
Adding to Palestinian fears is a line in US President Joe Biden's 20 October request to Congress to approve funding to support Israel and Ukraine.
It says: "This crisis could well result in displacement across border and higher regional humanitarian needs."
To date, Israel has not said it wants Palestinians to cross the border. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has repeatedly told civilians only to move to ill-defined "safe areas" in the south.
But Egypt's president, Abdel Fattah el-Sissi, has warned that Israel's war in Gaza might be "an attempt to push the civilian inhabitants to… migrate to Egypt."
Assuming there are still Gazans in the Gaza Strip when this is all over, who's going to rule them?
"That's the million dollar question," says Dr Milshtein.

[Richard230]

That has been my thought ever since the war has started. After Israel turns Gaza into dust, what do they do with it? Someone is going to be stuck with rebuilding the place and taking care of all of the refugees. I can't think of anyone it the area that is going to be willing to take on that task. The Egyptians can barely deal with their own population's problems, much less taking on another two million impoverished refugees, with nothing but blood and revenge on their minds. I sure hope the U.S. doesn't try getting involved and taking on that task. It is a no-win situation.

[AzCal Retred]

So this attack is Israel's "Final Solution"?

(AP) Why Egypt and other Arab nations are not taking in Palestinian refugees right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVolClJncJc

Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza
https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d
CAIRO (AP) — As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, some ask why neighboring Egypt and Jordan don’t take them in.
The two countries, which flank Israel on opposite sides and share borders with Gaza and the occupied West Bank, respectively, have replied with a staunch refusal. Jordan already has a large Palestinian population.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi made his toughest remarks yet on Wednesday, saying the current war was not just aimed at fighting Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, “but also an attempt to push the civilian inhabitants to ... migrate to Egypt.” He warned this could wreck peace in the region.
Jordan’s King Abdullah II gave a similar message a day earlier, saying, “No refugees in Jordan, no refugees in Egypt.”
Their refusal is rooted in fear that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their countries and nullify Palestinian demands for statehood. El-Sissi also said a mass exodus would risk bringing militants into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, from where they might launch attacks on Israel, endangering the two countries’ 40-year-old peace treaty.
A HISTORY OF DISPLACEMENT
Displacement has been a major theme of Palestinian history. or fled from what is now Israel. Palestinians refer to the event as the Nakba, Arabic for “catastrophe.”
In the 1967 Mideast war, when Israel seized the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 300,000 more Palestinians fled, mostly into Jordan.
The refugees and their descendants now number nearly 6 million, most living in camps and communities in the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. The diaspora has spread further, with many refugees building lives in Gulf Arab countries or the West.
After fighting stopped in the 1948 war, Israel refused to allow refugees to return to their homes. Since then, Israel has rejected Palestinian demands for a return of refugees as part of a peace deal, arguing that it would threaten the country’s Jewish majority.


Thousands break into aid warehouses in Gaza as deaths top 8,000 and Israel widens ground offensive
A U.N. agency says thousands of people have broken into aid warehouses in Gaza to take flour and basic hygiene products
By WAFAA SHURAFA Associated Press and SAMY MAGDY Associated Press; October 28, 2023

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-strikes-gazas-largest-hospital-after-accusing-hamas-104457570#:~:text=More%20than%201.4%20million%20people,they%20remained%20in%20northern%20Gaza.

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip -- Thousands of people broke into aid warehouses in Gaza to take flour and basic hygiene products, a U.N. agency said Sunday, in a mark of growing desperation and the breakdown of public order three weeks into the war between Israel and Gaza's militant Hamas rulers.
Tanks and infantry pushed into Gaza over the weekend as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced a “second stage” in the war, which was ignited by Hamas' brutal Oct. 7 incursion into Israel. Israel also pounded the territory from air, land and sea.
Gaza's Health Ministry said the death toll among Palestinians has passed 8,000 — mostly women and minors. It's a toll without precedent in decades of Israeli-Palestinian violence, and it is expected to climb even more rapidly as Israel presses its ground offensive. Over 1,400 people have died on the Israeli side, mainly civilians killed during the initial Hamas onslaught.
Communications were restored to much of Gaza early Sunday after a bombardment described by Gaza residents as the most intense of the war knocked out most contact with the territory late Friday. The besieged enclave’s 2.3 million people were largely cut off from the world.
The Israeli military said Sunday it had struck over 450 militant targets over the past 24 hours, including Hamas command centers and anti-tank missile launching positions. It said more ground forces were sent into Gaza overnight, and officials circulated footage showing tanks and troops operating in open areas.
The warehouse break-ins were “a worrying sign that civil order is starting to break down after three weeks of war and a tight siege on Gaza," said Thomas White, Gaza director for the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, known as UNRWA. "People are scared, frustrated and desperate.”
UNRWA provides basic services to hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza. Its schools across the territory have been transformed into packed shelters housing Palestinians displaced by the conflict. Israel has allowed only a small trickle of aid to enter from Egypt.
Juliette Touma, a spokesperson for the agency, said the crowds broke into four facilities on Saturday. She said the warehouses did not contain any fuel, which has been in critically short supply since Israel cut off all shipments after the start of the war.
One warehouse held 80 tons of food, the U.N. World Food Program said in a statement. The agency also said at least 40 of its trucks need to cross into Gaza daily to meet growing needs there.
Israeli authorities said Sunday that they would soon allow more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza, though details remained unclear.
Elad Goren, the head of civil affairs of COGAT, the Israeli defense body responsible for Palestinian civilian affairs, said Israel had established a “humanitarian zone” near the southern city of Khan Younis and recommended that Palestinians flee there.
But he provided no details on the exact location of the zone or how much aid would be available. He also said Israel has opened two water lines in southern Gaza within the past week. The AP could not independently verify that either line was functioning.
Meanwhile, residents living near Shifa Hospital, Gaza's largest, said Israeli airstrikes overnight hit near the hospital complex and blocked many roads leading to it. Israel accuses Hamas of having a secret command post beneath the hospital but has not provided much evidence. Hamas denies the allegations.
Tens of thousands of civilians are sheltering in Shifa, which is also packed with wounded patients.
“Reaching the hospital has become increasingly difficult,” Mahmoud al-Sawah, who is sheltering in the hospital, said over the phone. “It seems they want to cut off the area.” Another Gaza City resident, Abdallah Sayed, said the Israeli bombing over the past two days was “the most violent and intense” since the war started.