Author Topic: Ancient Roman Gremlin Bells?  (Read 1921 times)

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Bilgemaster

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on: July 24, 2021, 04:06:25 am
So, there I was just trying to satisfy my curiosity as to why Ancient Rome never had an Industrial Revolution, plodding through Pliny the Elder's 1st Century encyclopedic ramblings, as one does, when I stumbled upon an odd passage tucked even odder still into a section headed "Properties of the Human Spittle" wherein he writes the following:

"Infants are under the especial guardianship of the god Fascinus, the protector, not of infants only, but of generals as well, and a divinity whose worship is entrusted to the Vestal virgins, and forms part of the Roman rites. It is the image of this divinity that is attached beneath the triumphant car of the victorious general, protecting him, like some attendant physician, against the effects of envy."

Source: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/60688/60688-h/60688-h.htm (The Natural History of Pliny -- Volume 5 of 6, in: Chapter 7.—"Properties of the Human Spittle")   


Now, for those who may not be aware of this cultural hallmark, your ancient Roman loved a good schlong. The Greeks, at least the menfolk, were a bit more ambivalent, considering a massive old tallywhacker as somehow indicative of barbarism or simplemindedness, which explains why a lot of their statuary looks a bit like Apollo just stepped out of a cold mountain lake, if you get my drift. In contrast, the Romans had big old peckers everywhere--as boundary markers, wind chimes ("tintinnabula"), carved into doorways, and above all as amulets called a "fascinum", which, by the way, is where we get our word "fascination". That's right: the "image of this divinity" old Pliny describes the virgins attaching to the underside of that quadriga was a jangly dick pendant, or rather "rampant", seeing as they were typically engorged to zeppelinesque proportions. Young boys often wore them to ward off the "evil eye" or other malefactions. More on those here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascinus. So basically what dull old Pliny the Elder (Trust me: Pliny the Younger  is a much more ripping read--check out his account of the Eruption of Vesuvius and Destruction of Pompeii) is telling us is that when Julius Caesar or others had a Triumphal March into Rome the Vestal Virgins rigged his chariot with a jingly little phallus-shaped gremlin doodad underneath, pretty much the same as we gift biker friends with today to ward off roadway sprites and mishaps. Just in case you've never heard of a "Gremlin Bell", there's no shortage of fables and explanations out there for the googling. Here's one from Bike Bandit: https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/the-legend-of-the-gremlin-bell-a-bikers-tradition.

In light of my newfound ancient knowledge, I must say I'm rather gratified that even if my gremlin bell of choice, and I've gifted quite a few of 'em, may not resemble Dirk Diggler's angry wand of pride and joy, it most definitely resembles a really pissed off brass scrotum...So, I guess I wasn't too far off the Cursus Honorum. Bring on the Vestals to adorn the horde!

« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 05:44:55 am by Bilgemaster »
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Richard230

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Reply #1 on: July 24, 2021, 02:17:10 pm
I always assumed that the reason why Ancient Rome never had an Industrial Revolution was because they had so many unpaid slaves to do all of the work around town and a large army to take care of the infrastructure between towns, when they weren't beating up and looting the neighboring countries and capturing more slaves. Who needs to invent sewing machines and vacuums when you have slaves to do your sewing and to sweep out your home for you? Life was never the same for Italians after the fall of Rome.  ;)
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zimmemr

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Reply #2 on: July 24, 2021, 03:31:34 pm
I'd argue that the Roman's did have an industrial revolution of sorts. They developed and built everything from roads and aqueducts to the most sophistcated weapons of the day. they just didn't get as far they might have.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #3 on: July 24, 2021, 06:14:10 pm
All will be revealed in "Roma Eterna", a tome by out greatest living writer regarding that particular Multiversian alternate reality timeline...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_Eterna#:~:text=Roma%20Eterna%20is%20a%20science,survives%20to%20the%20present%20day.
Roma Eterna is a science fiction fixup novel by American writer Robert Silverberg, ( see what I did there. "Times New Roman" font...heh heh heh... ::)) published in 2003, which presents an alternative history in which the Roman Empire survives to the present day. Each of the ten chapters was first published as a short story, six of them in Asimov's Science Fiction, between 1989 and 2003.

Plot introduction
The point of divergence is the failure of the Israelite Exodus from Egypt. Moses and many of the Israelites drowned, and the remnant, led by Aaron, were fetched back to slavery in Egypt, a traumatic event recorded for posterity in the Book of Aaron, an alternate version of the Bible. Later, the Hebrews were freed from bondage and remained a distinct religious-ethnic minority in Egypt, practicing a monotheistic religion, up to the equivalent of our 20th century (the 27th century of the Roman calendar).

Still, affairs of the larger world and the rise and fall of empires and cultures remained roughly the same as in our history until the division of the Roman Empire, which was never Christianised in this history. Mutual assistance between the Western and the Eastern Roman Empire against barbarian invasions preserved both from falling and kept Roman rule intact throughout the imperial dominions.

Despite the absence of Christianity, which, in our history, considerably influenced early Islam, Muhammad still started his prophetic career but was assassinated by a perceptive Roman agent, nipping Islam in the bud and thus precluding the spread of any monotheistic religion through the Roman Empire.[1] Monotheism remained limited to the specific Hebrew sect in Egypt.

Plot summary
The novel is presented as a series of vignettes over a period of about 1500 years, from Ab Urbe Condita 1282 (AD 529) to AUC 2723 (AD 1970). Most of the story-chapters involve Roman politics, either the competition between the Western and Eastern Empires to dominate the other or the violent creation of the Second Roman Republic in about AUC 2603 (AD 1850). Others describe the first Roman circumnavigation of the world and unsuccessful attempts to conquer Nova Roma (Central America).

Many features of our own history are repeated in this history, though under changed circumstances: the equivalent of the 16th and 17th centuries have bold navigators and adventurers, romanticised by later generations but unpleasantly brutal and ruthless when looked at closely; in the late 18th to mid-19th centuries, a decadent old order is overthrown by revolution followed by a reign of terror and the reemergence of Republicanism; though Italy remains a central part of the Roman Empire, the Latin dialect spoken there develops into a kind of Italian, and the name "Marcus" changes into "Marco"; though Vienna is a provincial capital which never had an Emperor of its own, its population dances the Waltz; by the 20th century, people travel by cars rather than carriages and by the second half of the century, space flight is achieved.

It concludes with the first story to be written, when a group of Hebrew citizens in Alexandria prepare to depart Earth in a rocket which explodes shortly after takeoff. But they will try again, still believing God chose them to inherit the Promised Land, just not on Rome-dominated Earth.



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Karl Childers

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Reply #4 on: July 24, 2021, 07:12:27 pm
I'd argue that the Roman's did have an industrial revolution of sorts. They developed and built everything from roads and aqueducts to the most sophistcated weapons of the day. they just didn't get as far they might have.


I would agree with that, their inventing / use of concrete, their architectural and engineering abilities were far advanced. I think there were two limiting factors to what could be considered a manufacturing industrial revolution. One is that Rome was not one big long empire, it rose and fell a number of times which would have limited advances on a social and technical scale. At times Rome had democratic principles applied to certain classes and at others lived under maniacal emperors. Secondly, theirs was not a culture built on capitalism like ours, their needs were served by an expanding empire, not the concept of everyone being a consumer to create ever expanding wealth. Maybe for the better?  Chariot whips and olive oil lamps never went into mass production peoples needs were met by guilds and craftsman.  My last take on the Roman Empire(s) is many of the ills that finally took it down for good are present in our own country. History does have a way of repeating iteself.


zimmemr

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Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 09:40:02 pm

I would agree with that, their inventing / use of concrete, their architectural and engineering abilities were far advanced. I think there were two limiting factors to what could be considered a manufacturing industrial revolution. One is that Rome was not one big long empire, it rose and fell a number of times which would have limited advances on a social and technical scale. At times Rome had democratic principles applied to certain classes and at others lived under maniacal emperors. Secondly, theirs was not a culture built on capitalism like ours, their needs were served by an expanding empire, not the concept of everyone being a consumer to create ever expanding wealth. Maybe for the better?  Chariot whips and olive oil lamps never went into mass production peoples needs were met by guilds and craftsman.  My last take on the Roman Empire(s) is many of the ills that finally took it down for good are present in our own country. History does have a way of repeating iteself.

+1 :)


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Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 05:31:14 am
Many years ago I read a book that argued that the Romans were on the cusp of many scientific and mechanical break throughs. Even to hint that they might have been capable to launch a spaceship before the year 1000AD. But as history records for the Romans , moral decay, government corruption and apathy won the day.
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Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 08:52:54 am
Thanks @bilgemaster. That was fun.
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Richard230

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Reply #8 on: July 26, 2021, 02:32:45 pm
Many years ago I read a book that argued that the Romans were on the cusp of many scientific and mechanical break throughs. Even to hint that they might have been capable to launch a spaceship before the year 1000AD. But as history records for the Romans , moral decay, government corruption and apathy won the day.

2,000 years later that continues to sound familiar.  ::)
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Reply #9 on: July 26, 2021, 07:09:14 pm
But what have the Romans ever done for us???
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #10 on: July 26, 2021, 08:09:26 pm
Running water? Sewers? Wine? Schools? Medicine? Roads?  ;D ;D ;D

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Reply #11 on: July 26, 2021, 09:26:37 pm
But no steam engines then, unless you count Hero of Alexandria's little toy!

A.
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #12 on: July 28, 2021, 12:51:37 am
But no steam engines then, unless you count Hero of Alexandria's little toy!

A.

Actually, according to some controversial accounts, in the 16th Century the Spanish were claimed to have successfully held sea trials of a paddlewheel-driven ship powered by one of those highly elementary aeolopile turbine engines like Hero's designed or adapted by a clever fellow named Blanco de Garay (see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasco_de_Garay), who also developed some sort of underwater diving gear for salvage operations. But for whatever reason, possibly political or financial resistance from within the Spanish bureaucracy, and despite the seeming favor and approval of Emperor Charles V, who promoted the inventor to a higher station in life, the steamship project never moved forward.

Certainly the Roman world had enough technological and theoretical knowhow to match or perhaps even better such 16th century copper kettle steam turbine efforts. And as even a cursory examination of the other devices described in his "Pneumatics' soon reveals--many FAR more sophisticated than his aeolopile--Hero and his predecessor and successor researchers in Alexandria had extremely developed understandings of pneumatic and mechanical principles, particularly with regards to the effect of temperature on vacuum or pressure and of siphons, valves and pressure vessels--all of which could  have led to some sort of workable steam engine, perhaps similar to Watts' or his predecessor Newcomen's in the 18th Century. It seems like all of the necessary pieces were already there in 1st Century Alexandria for this key advance towards industrialization of a practical steam engine, but no one put them together. Why not? Lack of suitable fuel? The Roman world, certainly the Byzantines, had "Greek Fire" based on naptha distillates. Other fuels were commonplace including biomass such as olive pomace, or the crushings left over after oil extraction, which could have handily and cheaply fired a steam boiler. They even had coal--not only in extremely widespread use in provincial Britannia, but in some surface deposits in northern Italy itself (Liguria) where the locals used it for heating, grain drying and even pottery making.

Everyone knows the delightful "Sippy Dippy Bird" toy, right? That was also one of Hero's devices--also found described in his "Pneumatics" along with automatically opening doors, a vending machine, twittering birds automata and other wonders operated by heat, cooling condensation, levers or valves. When I look at a sippy bird I cannot help thinking of the grasshopper style paddlewheel cranks of the 1914 Tyne River steam tugboat "Eppleton Hall" in whose afterquarters I once lived in San Francisco Harbor in the '70s (see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eppleton_Hall_(1914)), while its motive principle just seems tantalizingly kindred to Watts' energy-conserving condenser, which helped boost the efficiency of the Newcomen design steam engine towards real practicality.


In short, I'm still left only with "It just didn't happen" as the rather unsatisfying explanation as to why the first dudes on the moon weren't named something like Nigelius Brachiumfortis and Buzzius Aldrinus.

Slavery and the supposed resulting lack of need for automatization is often posited as a cause hindering Roman industrial development. But I have a hard time buying this argument alone as sufficient. Unlike the largely racially-based lifetime slavery of America and other New World colonies and their "mother countries", slavery in Ancient Rome was a rather "moveable feast" as circumstances went. Freedmen abounded. For example, when it was destroyed by the volcanic eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 AD over a third of the registered citizens of Herculaneum were elevated freedmen. So, bondage was not necessarily a lifetime sentence, but might have been considered by many almost as an internship to learn the ropes as a sort of Roman-in-training under a sort of patron. And it's hard to imagine a person clever and industrious enough to earn his manumission as thereafter becoming just too torporous or weakminded to refine production processes or tools to earn even more. Freedmen tended to be fairly driven folks, making up a fair proportion of the Roman nouveau riche in all eras.

One possible partial explanation of a lack of industrialization, or at least motorized mechanization, may have been an accidental boon of geography stealing the wind from the sails of those Alexandrian theoreticians, as it were, robbing them of the Necessity said to be the Mother of Invention (which, regrettably for us Yankees, was one of the original sensible mottos found on American coinage later supplanted by the mawkish "In God We Trust"). You see, the Nile, at whose mouth at the Mediterranean Alexandria stands, is blessed with ideal winds and current for river travel and commerce: the winds tend to blow prevailingly southward, while the current alone carries craft inexorably northward. Accordingly, the local economic need for a nautical engine, a primary practical motivation for developing one at all apart from perhaps mine drainage, is all but removed from consideration.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 02:05:17 am by Bilgemaster »
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Karl Childers

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Reply #13 on: July 28, 2021, 02:54:02 am
I thought Frank Zappa was the Mother of Invention?


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UT4305cWfo
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 02:59:28 am by Karl Childers »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #14 on: July 28, 2021, 06:02:15 am
I think that the Roman "deciders" controlling the purse strings had everything they wanted, their offspring had everything they wanted, so there was little motivation for innovation. It was a big, empty planet and the folks at the top had all they needed, so no reason to do more.

War drives technical innovation, but when you are winning all the conflicts with little significant opposition, why change?

Today we have a planet bulging at the seams, but again the "deciders" are doing very well, so no problem, right? The normal progression is that an organism expands right up to the edge of available resources, then there is a population crash as the degraded "carrying capacity" of the range is exceeded. It's not like it isn't obvious what needs to happen, it's just that it would be uncomfortable or disruptive to the status quo to change our behavior. Pretending that by doing nothing you aren't making a real choice demonstrates an absurd level of self deception. We have plenty of available tech to bootstrap outselves out of this hole, it's just stupid not to do so.
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GlennF

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Reply #15 on: July 28, 2021, 06:56:46 am
Simple really, Capitalism perpetuates itself by instilling an inclination to invest as opposed to just acquire lands and possessions and live a life of leisure.

However to kick off a capitalist society you need at least a few people inclined to invest in something other than more rural estates or some distant war somewhere.  Rome lacked those sort of people.


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Reply #16 on: July 28, 2021, 11:13:37 am
I think that the Roman "deciders" controlling the purse strings had everything they wanted, their offspring had everything they wanted, so there was little motivation for innovation. It was a big, empty planet and the folks at the top had all they needed, so no reason to do more.

War drives technical innovation, but when you are winning all the conflicts with little significant opposition, why change?

Today we have a planet bulging at the seams, but again the "deciders" are doing very well, so no problem, right? The normal progression is that an organism expands right up to the edge of available resources, then there is a population crash as the degraded "carrying capacity" of the range is exceeded. It's not like it isn't obvious what needs to happen, it's just that it would be uncomfortable or disruptive to the status quo to change our behavior. Pretending that by doing nothing you aren't making a real choice demonstrates an absurd level of self deception. We have plenty of available tech to bootstrap outselves out of this hole, it's just stupid not to do so.

Well said and really puts things in perspective.