Author Topic: Battery not charging - 2018 model  (Read 3076 times)

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Haggis

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Off route, recalculate?


zsiros

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Reply #16 on: July 21, 2023, 04:34:15 pm
I ordered one from India, should be here next week. It surprised me how fast they reacted, and I even asked the exact model I had to ensure I got the correct part. I'll post when I get it and test everything again.


Guaire

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Reply #17 on: July 22, 2023, 03:13:29 pm
I would not replace the regulator/rectifier with the stock part. I have always used these from Jack at RoadsterCycle.
I don't buy Chinese batteries.
My favorite AGM is Interstate Factory Activated. Or, Yuasa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ8zvV1Ti-A&t=18s

http://roadstercycle.com
ACE Motors - sales & administration


zsiros

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Reply #18 on: July 25, 2023, 02:10:09 pm
I would not replace the regulator/rectifier with the stock part. I have always used these from Jack at RoadsterCycle.
I don't buy Chinese batteries.
My favorite AGM is Interstate Factory Activated. Or, Yuasa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ8zvV1Ti-A&t=18s

http://roadstercycle.com

Seeing how I got the wrong part from India today, I might try to order it from somewhere else... I'll take a look, thank you.


muezler

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Reply #19 on: August 29, 2023, 07:29:43 am
Hi All!

Sorry for trying to take over, but I have a similar problem with a similar bike, but I think with a different cause.
Bike is a 2017 Bullet 500 Euro 4 with 9.000km on the clock with a none charging problem.

What I did so far:

-Measured the voltage on the battery while running......11.96V so no charging at all
-Tested all diodes in all directions on the R&R unit according to the Hitchcocks manual......0,48V all in spec
-Resistance on the coil on all 3 phases is with 0,62ohm within spec range
-No short on the 3 phases when measured against engine case

but here is comes
-When measured AC voltage from the coil I have 1,9V - 3V coming out......so it must be a weak rotor magnet?  :o

Can it be that the rotor has lost its magnetism all of a sudden with so little mileage on the clock?
Or can there still be a other cause for this very low voltage coming from the coil?

Thanks in advance
Muezler
« Last Edit: August 29, 2023, 07:34:59 am by muezler »


axman88

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Reply #20 on: August 30, 2023, 04:29:27 pm
I believe that AC voltage from a stator needs to be measured with the circuit open ended, (Rectifier disconnected) from one coil to the other.  If you did that, and there's no issue with the electrical meter, and the stator coils all ohmed out in spec., that does strongly suggest the rotor magnetism is a problem.

I recall seeing numbers in the high 50s, VAC, when I made that measurement on an IB Bullet.

Luckily, like all our RE spare parts, a new rotor is not all that expensive.  This is the correct rotor for my C5, you should verify it's right for your '17.    https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/20044


AzCal Retred

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Reply #21 on: August 30, 2023, 09:06:07 pm
but here is comes
-When measured AC voltage from the coil I have 1,9V - 3V coming out......so it must be a weak rotor magnet?  :o
Can it be that the rotor has lost its magnetism all of a sudden with so little mileage on the clock?
Or can there still be a other cause for this very low voltage coming from the coil?


The AC system output voltage depends on 3 things: rotor magnet strength, RPM and stator coil integrity.

There isn't any good way to measure magnetic field strength for the layman. Axman88's recommendation as to just obtaining a new rotor is a reasonable solution.

AC voltages measured at the case leads depends on engine RPM. Spin it up a bit and you should see between 30 - 60 VAC OPEN CIRCUIT depending on RPM, rotor condition, coil condition, etc.
The Reg/Rec massages this high AC voltage and makes (supposedly) 14 VDC. The Boyer Power Box in fact regulates very well, flatlining at 14 VDC in use at any RPM above slow idle. Both of my OEM R.E. IB Bullet Reg/Recs "regulate" at 16 VDC and are battery eaters. I cheated one by using an invincible 18V NiMH tool battery. The bulbs are on their own... :o ;D

The coil integrity (insulation condition, wire continuity) determines how much of the coil is "working" for you. A broken wire blocks the circuit path. A shorted section makes the coil effectively have less turns and produces a lower voltage output depending on where the short is. The "fix" is generally a new stator unless you are an electrical hobbyist.

Worst case just buy the Lucas 120 Watt lash up.  Don't forget to upgrade the voltage Reg/Rec at the same time. :o :)

A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


axman88

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Reply #22 on: August 31, 2023, 04:58:36 am

There isn't any good way to measure magnetic field strength for the layman.

Actually, we do have access now to very reasonably priced Gauss meters like this one from Hojila.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394645582845    I don't see a minimum frequency spec. so I assume this gadget can measure static magnetic fields.  EMF meters can quantify magnetic fields, but generally have a frequency range that they are calibrated for, and don't give useful readings in a static field.

Or, one could cobble up something that can quantify a magnetic field by rigging up an auxiliary circuit for their multimeter, based on commonly available packaged Hall Effect sensors, like is described in this science experiment.  https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/Elec_p030/electricity-electronics/measure-magnetic-fields#:~:text=Once%20you%20have%20assembled%20your,the%20front%20of%20the%20sensor).

And, any DC clamp ammeter, like the UNI-T UT210D, that I've been recommending for general purpose moto diagnostic work, has a built in Hall Effect sensor in the jaws that may, or may not give useful results when exposed to a magnetic field in a systematic way.

One could rig up something even simpler, like a pull force test on a piece of iron.  But it's not THAT simple, because the pull strength varies non-linearly with distance, and the deflection during the test needs to be practically nil.   ( This suggests another, remote possibility, that the rotor/stator fit is incorrect, and there's too much gap between stator and rotor.  I have no idea if different diameters exist, though)

The rub of testing a questionable rotor is the calibration.  If rotor specifications EVER included the expected intensity of magnetism they were supposed to produce, it would have been over 100 years ago, at the dawn of automotive electrical systems when they had just a couple of poles.   We don't know what the field strength of a good RE UCE rotor is supposed to be.

The first step I'd have to take in measuring the magnetic field of a questionable rotor would be to acquire a presumably good rotor.  Because I'm methodical, the next step would be to mount it on my engine, and verify it produced the specified output in service.  Only then would any magnetic field readings taken from it have much usefulness, or be worth taking.  Obviously, most people would stop at the point they had their new rotor mounted and pumping out electrons, and save themselves the cost of the gaussmeter, and the time spent taking readings and making sense of the results.

Such experiments only make sense if I expect to encounter multiple dubious rotors in the future, or am part of a larger community of geeky science /engineering nerds, who are acutely interested in the results.  I don't think either of these is true.

If I'm wrong, and people are acutely interested, here's a range of magnetic field strengths one might have available in their home shop.

0.5 Gauss – Earth’s magnetic field at its surface
100 Gauss – A typical refrigerator magnet
1,100 Gauss – Magnetic rubber grade Y
3,700 Gauss – Ceramic magnets
11,000 Gauss – Samarium cobalt grade 2:17 magnet
12,500 Gauss – Alnico grade 5 magnet
13,000 Gauss – Neodymium grade N42 magnet


AzCal Retred

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Reply #23 on: August 31, 2023, 05:48:31 am
The propeller heads aeons back have determined that magnetic field strength is a squared function, it falls off rapidly with distance. That's why the rotor needs to be as close to the stator coils as possible and as centered as possible. My ammeter readings at fast idle were a lot less "lumpy" after a careful stator/rotor alignment session.

https://socratic.org/questions/how-does-distance-affect-magnetic-force
The equation for magnetic force is similar to Coulomb's Law (if you are familiar with it). But the key point is that the force is inversely proportional to the distance squared (i.e. it obeys an inverse square law with distance).
What that means in practical terms is the following:
If the distance between two magnets is doubled the magnetic force between them will fall to a quarter of the initial value.
If the distance between two magnets is halved the magnetic force between them will increase to four times the initial value.
If the distance between two magnets is increased by five times the magnetic force between them will fall to one twenty fifth of the initial value.



A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


muezler

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Reply #24 on: September 15, 2023, 06:59:36 am
Update:

After replacing the rotor and coil I finally have a working charging system again.

Thanks to all


zsiros

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Reply #25 on: September 18, 2023, 05:04:50 pm
It took a while, but I finally had the time to fix her up. A new regulator fixed the issue and it's running perfectly now.

Thanks for all the help :)