Author Topic: Long oil change intervals  (Read 4526 times)

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Richard230

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on: October 20, 2020, 03:55:42 pm
Here is an interesting video comparing two brands of synthetic truck oils after one year of usage without an oil change. This makes me feel better as I have been changing the oil in my car and motorcycles at over one year intervals or longer since I have not been traveling as far as I used to do. It looks like my favorite oil, Rotella, is well worth its cheap price. While not mentioned in the video, note that it is said to meet MA/MA2 specifications. I believe that is also true for Rotella T4 15W-40 conventional oil:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-yt5a1cWd4
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 04:02:00 pm by Richard230 »
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Arschloch

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Reply #1 on: October 20, 2020, 04:56:05 pm
In the UCE the effects of the advanced oils is limited though. ;)



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Reply #2 on: October 20, 2020, 06:07:46 pm
Here is an interesting video comparing two brands of synthetic truck oils after one year of usage without an oil change. This makes me feel better as I have been changing the oil in my car and motorcycles at over one year intervals or longer since I have not been traveling as far as I used to do. It looks like my favorite oil, Rotella, is well worth its cheap price. While not mentioned in the video, note that it is said to meet MA/MA2 specifications. I believe that is also true for Rotella T4 15W-40 conventional oil:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-yt5a1cWd4

           This reminds me of the "way-back time" when I was getting used to the fact that the mileage between oil changes had moved along to 5,000 miles! No! Can't be good!  :) I kept changing mine at 3K for a L00ng time after 5K became politically correct. Same for points, condenser, plugs, timing & check the valves. Now you can go the whole life of the car with the same plugs! Mi god! Amazing!!  :) :)

            How boring!
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Reply #3 on: October 20, 2020, 09:04:09 pm
My old '95 Tacoma first got new plugs at 65K , the old ones still looked good, just the center electrode rounded over a bit. As you said - totally amazing. A very long way from an engine overhaul on your flathead V8 at 35K, eh? ;)  - ACR -
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olhogrider

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Reply #4 on: October 20, 2020, 11:35:43 pm
The new Ducati V4 Multistrada just announced the first service is at 37,000 miles. I thought they meant valve adjustment but I can't find any more info. Their tagline is The World is Not Enough. Because the circumference of the Earth is 24,900 miles.

Also, have you ever seen the Kendall Oil logo? It is two fingers to symbolize their oil could go for TWO THOUSAND MILES! Instead of the usual 1000 miles.


Richard230

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Reply #5 on: October 20, 2020, 11:45:29 pm
The new Ducati V4 Multistrada just announced the first service is at 37,000 miles. I thought they meant valve adjustment but I can't find any more info. Their tagline is The World is Not Enough. Because the circumference of the Earth is 24,900 miles.

Also, have you ever seen the Kendall Oil logo? It is two fingers to symbolize their oil could go for TWO THOUSAND MILES! Instead of the usual 1000 miles.

37K service intervals on a Ducati? That would be just crazy.  :o I didn't know that about the Kendall Oil logo. That is historically interesting.  :)
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Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 06:21:44 am
The new Ducati V4 Multistrada just announced the first service is at 37,000 miles.

Wow. The way a lot of Ducatis are used, they'll be 50 years old by the time the first service rolls around.
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cyrusb

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Reply #7 on: October 21, 2020, 01:28:17 pm
I don't think the new high mile service Duc's are Desmo's. That may be the reason right there.
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Richard230

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Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 02:08:15 pm
I don't think the new high mile service Duc's are Desmo's. That may be the reason right there.

I thought the last time Ducati made an engine that was not a desmo design was sometimes in the 1970's. If Ducati plans to make a non-desmo engine I sure haven't heard about it and I would think that would be big news and reported on the usual motorcycle internet sources.  ???
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cyrusb

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Richard230

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Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 04:16:35 pm
I just saw the news. Now there is a useful engine design revision  :) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaA8DFnzRUw
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olhogrider

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Reply #11 on: October 21, 2020, 05:56:53 pm
I don't think the new high mile service Duc's are Desmo's. That may be the reason right there.
You are correct. The report showed a cutaway drawing of the engine and it had VALVE SPRINGS!! Maybe it is time for them to abandon that 1950s Mercedes designed desmodromic system.


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Reply #12 on: October 21, 2020, 07:21:17 pm
You are correct. The report showed a cutaway drawing of the engine and it had VALVE SPRINGS!! Maybe it is time for them to abandon that 1950s Mercedes designed desmodromic system.

That would be rubbish, performance is not everything when it comes to road bikes.  :(

Maybe Audi should stop making Quattro, I am starting to like that idea.   :D
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 07:58:35 pm by derottone »


cyrusb

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Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 08:00:40 pm
I would only hope that there would always be a desmo model. Just for the hell of it. I have owned ducs "because" of the complications of that valve system. Add the rattling air cooled clutch and I'm in heaven. Well, was anyway. 2019 was the last year of Sausage Creature riding since it began in 1998. There was always one in the stable, getting like 1000 miles a season. Now I am down to my 05e, but I think I see a Cub 50 in my future ;D
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 09:09:59 pm
Mercedes? This is how I remember it. I got to see the Cook-Neilson Ducati at the Ontario Motor Speedway in the late 70's. What a beautiful sound it made powering down the straightaway at 150!
https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-italian-motorcycles/classic-ducati-motorcycles/old-blue-zm0z17jazhur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve#:~:text=In%201956%2C%20Fabio%20Taglioni%2C%20a,diagram%20as%20consistently%20as%20possible.

>>> "Fully controlled valve movement was conceived during the earliest days of engine development, but devising a system that worked reliably and was not overly complex took a long time. Desmodromic valve systems are first mentioned in patents in 1896 by Gustav Mees.[citation needed] Austin's marine engine of 1910 produced 300 bhp and was installed in a speedboat called "Irene I"; its all-aluminium, twin-overhead-valve engine had twin magnetos, twin carburetors and desmodromic valves.[3] The 1914 Grand Prix Delage and Nagant (see Pomeroy "Grand Prix Car") used a desmodromic valve system (quite unlike the present day Ducati system).[4]
Azzariti, a short lived Italian manufacturer from 1933 to 1934, produced 173 cc and 348 cc twin-cylinder engines, some of which had desmodromic valve gear, with the valve being closed by a separate camshaft.[5]
The Mercedes-Benz W196 Formula One racing car of 1954–1955, and the Mercedes-Benz 300SLR sports racing car of 1955 both had desmodromic valve actuation. " <<<

>>> "In 1956, Fabio Taglioni, a Ducati engineer, developed a desmodromic valve system for the Ducati 125 Grand Prix, creating the Ducati 125 Desmo. He was quoted to say:
The specific purpose of the desmodromic system is to force the valves to comply with the timing diagram as consistently as possible. In this way, any lost energy is negligible, the performance curves are more uniform and dependability is better.
The engineers that came after him continued that development, and Ducati held a number of patents relating to desmodromics. Desmodromic valve actuation has been applied to top-of-the-range production Ducati motorcycles since 1968, with the introduction of the "widecase" Mark 3 single cylinders." <<<


I've never owned a Ducati, but the arcanery of the springless valve train has always intrigued me. Cyrus probably knows if this bit is true - that they feel compressionless if the kick starter is pulled thru slowly. Seems reasonable if the valves seat inertially, but again that's hearsay on my part, never had an opportunity to see for myself. Years ago I looked at used ones near an Army base in Oceanside, they all had about the same mileage, 10K I think it was. Turns out there was a $1200 valve adjustment pending, so the soldiers making $500/month were just selling them on. Still, they were beautiful machines.- ACR -
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Arschloch

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Reply #15 on: October 21, 2020, 09:34:23 pm

I've never owned a Ducati, but the arcanery of the springless valve train has always intrigued me. Cyrus probably knows if this bit is true - that they feel compressionless if the kick starter is pulled thru slowly. Seems reasonable if the valves seat inertially, but again that's hearsay on my part, never had an opportunity to see for myself. Years ago I looked at used ones near an Army base in Oceanside, they all had about the same mileage, 10K I think it was. Turns out there was a $1200 valve adjustment pending, so the soldiers making $500/month were just selling them on. Still, they were beautiful machines.- ACR -

As far as I'm aware there are still springs involved just in a different way. One rocker arm pushes the valve down the other up. Now it's fairly obvious that the cam even if ground to a perfect tolerance can't compensate for the thermal expansions, neither the manufacturing tolerances inside that desmo cylinder head. I don't see how the rocker could otherwise stop pulling the valve back into the seat and stop exactly when the valve is seated.  :o


cyrusb

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Reply #16 on: October 21, 2020, 09:57:23 pm
Google it dudes. It is poetry in motion. One cam pushes another lifts to about .004" of the seat, there compression and a tiny mousetrap spring does the closing. No Kickstarters on any of mine but there is compression or you need a valve adjustment. But here is the reason it exists . It takes no effort to operate the valve train. None. Doing a belt change, you can spin the cam pulleys with your fingers. Its a lot of complication for a small gain, and a royal pain in the ass to adjust, but I have always dug it. Hey, it's Italian, it's supposed to be bonkers.
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Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 10:42:00 pm
Well there you go. I don't follow modern Ducati and had no idea they'd gone to valve springs. Makes sense.

I've never kick started a Ducati but can confirm there's plenty of compression trying to push start or move around in gear with a desmo bike. That little mousetrap spring doing is job.

Adjustment is a bit of a pest but made easier with a few special tools. Pin puller, locking forceps, magnetic stick. It's not like a load of modern bikes are any easier, having to dismantle half the bike just to get to the camshafts to pull them out so you can reach the shims.

Pushrods and hydraulics lifters ftw!
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Arschloch

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Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 09:22:33 am
Well there you go. I don't follow modern Ducati and had no idea they'd gone to valve springs. Makes sense.

Makes sence to unfollow modern Ducati if it turns into another IKEA bike.


Richard230

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Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 02:14:50 pm
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that Ducati made a version of their desmo twin with spring operated valves during the 1970's. I think it was called a GT and aimed at the typical motorcycle rider that didn't need or want a sports model. Plus the angular styling left something to be desired. Naturally, it didn't sell well enough for Ducati to keep making and after that try they stuck with the desmo valve system - until now.
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cyrusb

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Reply #20 on: October 22, 2020, 03:24:16 pm
Makes sence to unfollow modern Ducati if it turns into another IKEA bike.
I don't think the whole line up is going conventional, at least its not mentioned in the press release . What they did there was take a Panagale engine and put conventional heads on it. This should not only make it cheaper to maintain but also cheaper to buy. More riders will be able to appreciate the super build quality of a Duc.
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Arschloch

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Reply #21 on: October 22, 2020, 03:54:13 pm
Makes sense, only question is why would anyone anymore care if anyone enjoys the super build quality of a Duc. I certainly don't, the sooner EUdssR goes belly up the better.  :(

I am just saying because having worked in a company with a "zero" failure quality policy aka. - AUDI condom. Nothing works unless the high priest approves it. So f@#$ck it.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 04:09:04 pm by derottone »


Arschloch

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Reply #22 on: October 22, 2020, 05:01:01 pm
Makes sense, only question is why would anyone anymore care if anyone enjoys the super build quality of a Duc. I certainly don't, the sooner EUdssR goes belly up the better.  :(

I am just saying because having worked in a company with a "zero" failure quality policy aka. - AUDI condom. Nothing works unless the high priest approves it. So f@#$ck it.

F@#$it, meaning VW owned Duc. can make only conventional heads. Nobody gives a f@#ck.


Arschloch

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Reply #23 on: October 22, 2020, 08:16:54 pm
F@#$it, meaning VW owned Duc. can make only conventional heads. Nobody gives a f@#ck.

Even better only "electric" bikes.  :D


AzCal Retred

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Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 10:32:32 pm
Here's some desmodromic-valve-in-action videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocfIYUc5bpU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgOg55g-Hs8

The Desmodromic system allows the valves to continue to operate until either the valve head tears off or the piston breaks free of the con rod & pays a visit. Losing a race because your 1950's tech valve springs fatigue-failed became a thing of the past for Ducati. 

None of this engineering is new, or exclusive. Just because one person can't make it work doesn't mean it can't be done. There are some truly gifted folks out there, the rest of us just get to be properly amazed & appreciative of their efforts. ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabio_Taglioni
Fabio Taglioni ; From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fabio Taglioni (September 10, 1920 – July 18, 2001) was an Italian engineer. Born in Lugo di Romagna, he was chief designer and technical director of Ducati from 1954 until 1989. His desmodromic 90° V-twin engine design is still used in all current Ducati motorcycle engines. Among the many race victories of his early desmo twin, the 1978 legendary return of Mike Hailwood at the Isle of Man is perhaps the most memorable.
After World War II, Taglioni designed engines for Ceccato motorcycles and Mondial before joining Ducati in 1954.[1][2] He began by designing Ducati's OHC four-stroke singles, and in 1963 designed the prototype V4 Ducati Apollo. This led to the 1972 Ducati 750 Imola Desmo, and the 1970s and 1980s production Ducati L-twin motorcycles. He died in Bologna in 2001.
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Arschloch

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Reply #25 on: October 23, 2020, 10:17:20 am

None of this engineering is new, or exclusive. Just because one person can't make it work doesn't mean it can't be done. There are some truly gifted folks out there, the rest of us just get to be properly amazed & appreciative of their efforts. ;D


I think little less appreciation is coming.  ;)


AzCal Retred

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Reply #26 on: October 23, 2020, 06:04:53 pm
>>> I think little less appreciation is coming.  ;)   <<<

So, that would be more appreciation is coming then??  ;)
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Arschloch

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Reply #27 on: October 23, 2020, 06:08:45 pm
>>> I think little less appreciation is coming.  ;)   <<<

So, that would be more appreciation is coming then??  ;)

Nobody and nothing works on appreciation, not even the electric bike. :D


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Reply #28 on: October 23, 2020, 06:50:57 pm
Hmmm - Capital appreciates, and I know the hard way debit appreciates...or maybe better accumulates.
Electric bikes accumulate charge, so you might say the amount of charge [when charging!] appreciates over time.  :D

Maybe this was the intended point "A _ s, gas, or grass, nobody rides for free."?

These early "Atmospheric Valve" engines were interesting to me - keep things really simple. They were "cutting edge" for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOE_engine#:~:text=The%20intake%2Finlet%20over%20exhaust,valves%20within%20the%20engine%20block.
The intake/inlet over exhaust, or "IOE" engine, known in the US as F-head, is a four-stroke internal combustion engine whose valvetrain comprises OHV inlet valves within the cylinder head and exhaust side-valves within the engine block. IOE engines were widely used in early motorcycles, initially with the inlet valve being operated by engine suction instead of a cam-activated valvetrain. When the suction-operated inlet valves reached their limits as engine speeds increased, the manufacturers modified the designs by adding a mechanical valvetrain for the inlet valve.

The Aspin rotary valve engines were tried also, with some success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspin_valve
http://www.aspin.info/

In any event, lots of ways to get charge & exhaust in and out of a cylinder have been tried. I'm partial to piston-port 2 strokes, and the rotary was polished quite a lot by Mazda, so valves aren't particularly necessary. The inventiveness & cleverness shown is the thing to be appreciated. Some of these ideas are still valid today, as materials science has advanced significantly from the 1920's. Successfully marketing an idea, now there's the real rub. - ACR -



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Arschloch

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Reply #29 on: October 23, 2020, 10:06:34 pm
High priests of global warming have figured there is more money to be made by making things not work, outlaw everything except their solution which is EVs. So there is not much chance anyone will succeed to market any of these ideas even if they may be a hundred times more efficient than the supposedly green EV. In the EUdssR you can concider yourself to be outlawed to make anything and hoping to make a profit on it, anyone can equally wait for the government check to obtain the EV. The question will be only who gets one and who not, which apparently they feel qualified to decide too. The sooner EUdssR goes belly up the better, sustainability looks different.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #30 on: October 23, 2020, 10:28:58 pm
“In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rock feller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighways.” Tyler Durden
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Richard230

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Reply #31 on: October 23, 2020, 10:41:28 pm
High priests of global warming have figured there is more money to be made by making things not work, outlaw everything except their solution which is EVs. So there is not much chance anyone will succeed to market any of these ideas even if they may be a hundred times more efficient than the supposedly green EV. In the EUdssR you can concider yourself to be outlawed to make anything and hoping to make a profit on it, anyone can equally wait for the government check to obtain the EV. The question will be only who gets one and who not, which apparently they feel qualified to decide too. The sooner EUdssR goes belly up the better, sustainability looks different.

One minor issue with electric vehicles is getting rid of the lithium batteries when they or the vehicle expires. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of a recycling industry for those batteries and most recycling centers consider them a fire hazard and don't want anything to do with them.  Easy come, hard to go.  ;)
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Reply #32 on: October 23, 2020, 11:52:28 pm
Who knew?  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_recycling#European_Union

Lithium ion batteries
Lithium-ion batteries and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries often contain among other useful metals high-grade copper and aluminium in addition to – depending on the active material – transition metals cobalt and nickel as well as rare earths. To prevent a future shortage of cobalt, nickel, and lithium and to enable a sustainable life cycle of these technologies, recycling processes for lithium batteries are needed.[6] These processes have to regain not only cobalt, nickel, copper, and aluminium from spent battery cells, but also a significant share of lithium. Another potentially valuable and regainable materials are graphite and manganese. Recycling processes today recover approximately 25% to 96% of the materials of a lithium-ion battery cell, depending on the separation technology.[7][8] In order to achieve this goal, several steps are combined into complex process chains, especially considering the task to recover high rates of valuable materials with regard to involved safety issues.[9][10]

These steps are:[9]

Deactivation or discharging of the battery (especially in case of batteries from electric vehicles)
Disassembly of battery systems (especially in case of batteries from electric vehicles)
Mechanical processes (including crushing, sorting, and sieving processes)[10]
Electrolyte recovery[11]
Hydrometallurgical processes
Pyrometallurgical processes
Specific dangers associated with lithium-ion battery recycling processes are: electrical dangers, chemical dangers, burning reactions, and their potential interactions.[9] A complicating factor is the water sensitivity: lithium hexafluorophosphate, a possible electrolyte material, will react with water to form hydrofluoric acid; cells are often immersed in a solvent to prevent this. Once removed, the jelly rolls are separated and the materials removed by ultrasonic agitation, leaving the electrodes ready for melting down and recycling.

Pouch cells are particularly easier to recycle in this way and some people already do this to salvage the copper despite the safety issues.

As of 2019, the recycling of Li-Ion batteries in most cases does not extract lithium since lithium-ion battery technology continuously changes and processes to recycle these batteries can thus be outdated in a couple of years.[12] Another reason why it isn't being done on a large scale is because the extraction of lithium from old batteries is five times more expensive than mined lithium.[13] However, it is already being done on a small scale (by some companies[7][14][15][16]), an industry in expectation of large quantities of disused batteries to come.[8][17][18][19]

Energy saving and effective recycling solutions for lithium-ion batteries can reduce the carbon footprint of the production of lithium-ion batteries significantly.[8][20]

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Arschloch

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Reply #33 on: October 24, 2020, 07:54:57 am
One minor issue with electric vehicles is getting rid of the lithium batteries when they or the vehicle expires. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of a recycling industry for those batteries and most recycling centers consider them a fire hazard and don't want anything to do with them.  Easy come, hard to go.  ;)

The minor issue is that high priests are businesses administrators and accountants, If necessary they call themselves engineers as well. Good luck explaining anything to them.

If looking at the some of the commie "nordic" overlord transport companies, the Idea could as well be - We say we make "only" electric vehicles, employ the folks that actually believe in the future of EV's and whip them as long as they leave the company since the laws and public relations don't favour the layoffs of staff. That could make sence. Of course they won't advertise such on their website, than they land up with an wild gone crowd of developers whome they dispose at the next business down cycle.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 08:57:53 am by derottone »


Arschloch

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Reply #34 on: October 24, 2020, 09:29:22 am
And if there is anything that pops up that could be sold, it gets transformed in company ownership and the financial gains goes to those above, the overlords. So basically they are f$€#ed, no future.

In the meanwhile Greta searching who is steeling her future, accusing the whole world of it.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 09:41:02 am by derottone »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #35 on: October 24, 2020, 04:40:42 pm
“Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War, No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars, but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.” Tyler Durden
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Arschloch

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Reply #36 on: October 24, 2020, 05:03:21 pm
You just avoid dealing with svine with full pockets of cash, no matter how lucrative they whine, that's it. Now they scramble to buy some innovation to present themselves as saviours of the world and putting their shitty corporate logo on it. So no deal, garbage can innovate themselves.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #37 on: October 24, 2020, 06:43:46 pm
"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f**king khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing c**p of the world." Tyler Durden
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Arschloch

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Reply #38 on: October 24, 2020, 07:11:48 pm
Who is Tyler Durden?


AzCal Retred

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Reply #39 on: October 24, 2020, 08:00:24 pm
Must-see cinema. Allegories appropriate for our time & nonpareil. 8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club

" The first rule of Fight Club is: ...? "
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Arschloch

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Reply #40 on: October 24, 2020, 10:06:06 pm
Electric vehicles are not exactly new either. It's fascinating how the high priests clinch on that idea. On the other hand when Triumpb and others presented alternatives they have been ridiculed as retro, old school, historic, backwards....so good luck to you EV developers, the whole world is waiting. 100 horses, 5 min charge, 200 miles range, 180 kg max, 6000$ and I would concider getting one.


axman88

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Reply #41 on: October 24, 2020, 10:06:50 pm
So, ..  I guess this is why the more experienced members groan when they see another thread about oil?


Arschloch

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Reply #42 on: October 24, 2020, 11:12:26 pm
Who knew?  :o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_recycling#European_Union


I assume you have a clue how Wikipedia is financed, hence all the distorted articles regarding the subject.  ;)


AzCal Retred

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Reply #43 on: October 25, 2020, 12:10:53 am
Wow - the hits just keep on a'comin' eh? The bulk of their financing is from individual donations, like mine, $30 per year in my case. Can't wait to hear what a dumba _ _ I and most other folks are for subsidizing an information resource, trying to make things a bit better.

https://vator.tv/news/2015-11-13-how-does-wikipedia-make-money#:~:text=Wikipedia%20gets%20most%20of%20its,free%2Dcontent%20Internet%20encyclopedia%20Wikipedia.& text=Wikipedia%20is%20hosted%20by%20the,funded%20primarily%20by%20reader%20donations.

Wikipedia gets most of its money through donations, but also sells goods on the Wikipedia store.
Of all the tools that the Internet has given us, perhaps the most useful is free-content Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia. It's such a great source for information that it's a place that I find myself visiting just about every single day.
It's gotten to the point now where if someone famous doesn't have a Wikipedia page it's kind of bizarre. It's almost like they don't exist, in a strange way.
So how does it make money? Given Wikipedia’s status as part of the Wikimedia Foundation, a non-profit, it makes money in a much different way than other major websites.
Wikipedia is hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation, and is funded primarily by reader donations. As the non-profit that supports Wikipedia, its sister projects, and a community of volunteer contributors, the Wikimedia Foundation uses reader contributions to cover the costs of operating Wikipedia, including servers, and staff.
During the 2014–2015 fiscal year, more than 4 million donors gave $75 million USD to support Wikipedia through the Wikimedia Foundation. 
"People make contributions year-round from countries all over the world. We receive contributions of all sizes, but every gift is meaningful. The average donation is just $15. Wikipedia readers will see banners on the site asking for a small contribution. We strive to make sure fundraising campaigns are as short as possible, and that people who have already contributed are not asked again," Samantha Lien, as a Wikimedia Foundation spokesperson, told me.
"We regularly meet and speak with donors and readers about their impressions of our fundraising efforts, and we take their feedback very seriously. We also share our approach each year with readers and editors online to get their input before launching a campaign. This helps us ensure that our efforts are aligned with our values as a movement."
For this current fiscal year, its fundraising team has set its goal to raise $68.2 million.
The Wikipedia Foundation does have one other source of revenue beyond donations: goods sold on the Wikipedia store. Some of the items for sale include t-shirts for $21, notebooks for $8, pencils for $10, and pins for $3.
However, this is not a signifigant source of revenue, as the Wikipedia store was less than 1% of the total revenue for the 2014-2015 fiscal year.
"100% of the proceeds from the store go directly to the Wikimedia Foundation to support Wikipedia and its sister projects. These proceeds are then earmarked for our Merchandise Giveaways Program to send Wikipedia merchandise to editors around the world who contribute to the Wikimedia projects," Lien said.
Every month, roughly 75,000 active editors make more than five edits on Wikipedia.
“They also regularly review and improve content, applying policies and guidelines to make sure Wikipedia is a reliable, neutral, and accurate resource for the world.”

I know more about its funding, but I fully expect any responses to have some verifiable information links. As far as distorted articles, is IS user moderated content, probably on par with "magazine" info, so mostly a place to get some orientation & possibly start real research. Conflating funding and editing is absurd. If you know more about a specific "distorted" Wiki topic and can prove it, have at it. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." is a useful aphorism here. Putting a polish on some Wiki arcanery could prove to be an entertaining pastime.
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Arschloch

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Reply #44 on: October 25, 2020, 08:01:47 am
Wow - the hits just keep on a'comin' eh? The bulk of their financing is from individual donations, like mine, $30 per year in my case. Can't wait to hear what a dumba _ _ I and most other folks are for subsidizing an information resource, trying to make things a bit better.

I know more about its funding, but I fully expect any responses to have some verifiable information links. As far as distorted articles, is IS user moderated content, probably on par with "magazine" info, so mostly a place to get some orientation & possibly start real research. Conflating funding and editing is absurd. If you know more about a specific "distorted" Wiki topic and can prove it, have at it. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." is a useful aphorism here. Putting a polish on some Wiki arcanery could prove to be an entertaining pastime.

Seeking answers to subjects that are matters of the Frontline may be about as good as reading the newspaper. The overwhelming scientific consensus of one day may flip in overwhelming scientific consensus of tomorrow. Scientists don't like uncertainty like most people don't and will find proof of any theory that satisfies their donors or universities. They all are independent and write for free because they have nothing better to do?

https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/wikipedia-information-on-global-warming-unreliable-study/articleshow/48501406.cms

Locking people at home because of an overwhelming scientific consensus on covid? They could equally well come and confiscate your vehicles because it's "you" who is causing global warming, how would you like that? I can equally accuse the paid scientists of stealing jobs, destroying the economy, ruining lives yet they are independent so they believe.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 08:49:49 am by derottone »


Arschloch

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Reply #45 on: October 25, 2020, 09:31:51 am
This is by the way being done in the fascist state of Sweden. Self appoint scientist steel your property, material, intellectual, your car, your money, your life. A market place can only exist if you have laws in place that protect your property, material and intellectual. You can build the best car in the world but you will not succeed to force it on everyone. The overwhelming majority of scientists in that fascist state are atheists, hence they neither subscribe to the ten commandments that are the foundation of the civilisation we enjoy today only to what they "believe" to be scientific facts. Yet they believe. I have to yet see any design of anything that these nihilistic technocrats come up with. Engineering and construction has always been and will be a synthesis of art and science. You give me the exact scientific shape of a motorcycle, how would that look like?


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Reply #46 on: October 25, 2020, 06:03:05 pm
>>> They all are independent and write for free because they have nothing better to do? <<<

Wiki has 17,000+ contributors. World Population about 7.5 Billion. That implies that 0.00003% of the worlds population has surplus time and enough interest to attempt to make things better. I'll take those odds. I ask you - what are YOU doing right now on this very forum? Aren't YOU spending time for free, just like the rest of us? :o

I'm still not seeing any objective data to back up the statements. As an Arizonan, I am fully aware how entertaining conspiracy theories are, as it is state law for each citizen to have a few ;). Reducing the entire worlds behaviours to nihilistic assumptions about their inner motivations doesn't do you or them any good. Stating them as fact inhibits reception of further information.

Statements like this "Scientists don't like uncertainty like most people don't and will find proof of any theory that satisfies their donors or universities." rather dissolves any possibility of proving anything. If that's "your truth" then there is no reason to pontificate further, right? All facts are lies? Only our personal unsubstantiated feelings are real?

That's why this is largely a technical forum. As a group, members agree that chemical & physical laws are a known constant, maybe the ONLY constant, and so we stay fairly close to what we can demonstrably prove, with occasional forays into the weeds for "good-natured banter". We are largely supportive. If critical of another, we bring to bear objective, provable data or experience; "Science Rules the Day". Personal preference or opinion is immediately spelled out as such. That is what makes this a great forum.


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Arschloch

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Reply #47 on: October 25, 2020, 06:19:56 pm
This was by no means ment as personal offence. All I am saying is that most of the scientists are very theoretical. Those who are alive in 100 years will know what the weather is than that will be the scientific proof.

If anyone is alive that is to see since CO2 is outlawed by 2050.   ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 06:23:48 pm by derottone »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #48 on: October 25, 2020, 10:36:21 pm
The logic you are trying to support doesn't come through in the writing.

>>> All I am saying is that most of the scientists are very theoretical. <<<
This literally says that most scientists don't actually exist.
Theory : a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
Theoretical: concerned with or involving the theory of a subject or area of study rather than its practical application.
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
Definitive Proof: of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

Perhaps Mathematicians and Topologists are theoretical, but even the High Energy Particle Physicists/propeller heads at CERN are shoving & colliding voodoo bits about & recording effects. We ALL use theory all the time. We take what we think we know and try to use it to predict what happens next. Scientists don't drive public policy, Politicians do. The degree to which Politicians & Lawmakers succeed IMHO is connected to how much they actually understand about the facts they are given.

>>> Those who are alive in 100 years will know what the weather is than that will be the scientific proof. <<<
Yes - 100 years of additional Weather data SHOULD increase net understanding of how the complexities of atmospheric science actually work. Whatever Weather has existed for the last 100 years at the time of analysis 100 years from now will assist to either confirm or refute whichever weather model/theory is being examined. Definitive Proof isn't ever going to happen, as weather is too way complex for even 100 years of additional data to put absolutely paid to an argument. Hopefully the models are better by then.

>>> If anyone is alive that is to see since CO2 is outlawed by 2050.   ;)  <<<
What does that even mean? Everyone will be dead by 2050, then ?someone? will "outlaw" carbon dioxide? Who's left then, & why would they care if they can already live in a high CO2 environment? And how exactly is CO2 guaranteed to be outlawed 30 years from now, given the constant flux of politics & the economy? Have you ever tried to get 10 people to agree on anything, let alone millions?

>>> This was by no means ment as personal offence <<<
Then carefully write what you actually know, can prove and mean to say. Keep it friendly and informative. Post pix of your ride & mods. Stay away from the conspiracy humour for awhile, too much and it looks like that's all you are about. We're all old farts here, we've all been used & abused by life; we get it and have already lived it, we don't need a steady diet of it. This place is a haven from all that, where motorcycle talk & related topics run wild & free. In the Continental forum you posted on stainless bolts in aluminum cases, referring to a white powder on the bolts. As a long-time desert dweller using saline well water for 50 years, that's salt corrosion from wash water, the salts in the water are reacting with the aluminum cases, whether there's a bolt in the hole or not. The "white rust" makes the bolts tough to extract. In industry we routinely coat bolt shafts with anti-seize to slow this process down. Better might be to swab the holes. A downside is that reduced thread friction makes it easier to overtorque & damage threads.
Here's a better methodology for talking about this topic - put in a reference confirming what you are saying:
https://www.albanycountyfasteners.com/blog/stainless-steel-and-aluminum/
>>> The combination of aluminum and stainless steel causes galvanic corrosion. In order to understand why you shouldn’t use stainless steel and aluminum together, we first need to understand how galvanic corrosion works. Galvanic corrosion is the transfer of electrons from one material (anode) to another (cathode). In addition to knowing what galvanic corrosion is, we also need to understand the technical terms that go along with it.
Here are all of the technical terms we will be using during this post:
Anode – material that is positively charged, electrons leave this material
Cathode – material that is negatively charged, electrons enter this material
Electrolyte – liquid that aids in the process of electron transfer
Corrosion/corrode – Destroy or weaken metal gradually
How It Works
Galvanic corrosion occurs when two materials (an anode and a cathode) come into contact with each other and an electrolyte. Electrolytes can be environmental factors such as humidity or rainwater. When these factors come into play, electron transfer will begin to occur. Depending on the level of resistance in an electrolyte, this transfer can happen much faster. This is why salt water, an electrolyte with a very low resistance, is a common factor when considering what product to use. Due to this, it is incredibly important to consider what material you are going to use in an environment.  When working with a marine, salt water environment, you even need to consider the type of stainless steel you are using. <<<

The reason to use citations is to lower resistance to thinking about the idea you are presenting. Ace himself posted a citation/link in that same thread. The Albany example citation references electrolytes as a contributing factor, so logically if the threads were kept dry & greased no reaction would occur, better defining the parameters of the material usage. That's certainly what I have seen.
The personal offense angle doesn't really apply here. I think you, just like myself, like to contribute what we know to the discussion on topics that are interesting to us. Keeping to the topic in a friendly, informative & non-combative manner best promotes useful discussion.
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olhogrider

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Reply #49 on: October 25, 2020, 11:13:55 pm
All I am saying is that most of the scientists are very theoretical.

This cracks me up! ;D Saying scientists are theoretical is like saying tires are round, water is wet. "Gravity is just a theory". When a scientist uses the word theory you can take it to mean the best, proven explanation that we currently have, subject to new data. It does not mean my cousin's wild ass guess. That's the problem with having more than one meaning for a word.