Author Topic: Front disk to drum conversion?  (Read 9143 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,981
  • Karma: 0
Reply #60 on: August 01, 2021, 03:25:58 pm
"I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums). I think you are right, it was just Honda proving it could be done (like oval pistons... and lots lots of other things)."

Honda VTR250. The brakes were fine. I sold it because the foot rests were so high.
ACE Motors - sales & administration


suitcasejefferson

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,589
  • Karma: 0
Reply #61 on: August 01, 2021, 05:52:31 pm
Suitcase- without wishing to offend, IMO a little less pontificating, lecturing and basically "teaching your mother how to suck eggs" would not go amiss. As a R.E forum, especially U.C.E, it's likely that most if us have ones with efi and discs, and we bought with FULL knowledge for our uses. My knees are knackered from Rugby, hence electric start, and I PREFER disc to drum, my choice and I  think reasonable to expect and give mutual respect for each other's choices. I drive an MGA without seatbelts, drum brakes, and a non collapsible column - I know how to drive it differently to other vehicles and I  do find it insulting to be advised as such on bikes, cars, trucks etc...inc Personally I am happy to hear of your opinions on Carbs, but NOT to the point of being told that least we SHOULD change, at at worst implied that were dumb not to!
Time for mutual respect and that each other's views and opinions ARE EQUAL

No reason to fight over it, but understanding, from both perspectives would be good. I actually didn't want a UCE. I wanted an Iron Barrel. That's what they were making when I discovered Royal Enfield. I was overjoyed that I could still buy a real vintage bike brand new. But things kept preventing me from buying one, and when I was finally able to, the Iron Barrel had been replaced by the UCE. For the most part it was still vintage, most of the modern stuff was added on, like the EFI, that horrible exhaust, and the disc brake. The UCE engine was still a very primitive long stroke air cooled single that looked the part. I already knew when I bought it that it would be converted to a carburetor and that the exhaust would be replaced. Doing those things pretty much brought back the sound and feel of the Iron Barrel. But that disc brake stood out like a sore thumb. And it's braking ability was still nowhere near as good as the discs on 40 year old Japanese bikes, and not even as good as the last of Honda's front drum brakes. So I know it is possible to make a drum brake that will out perform it. But performance is not my main concern, as long as it stops the bike adequately. I don't do any spirited riding on the Enfield. It's all slow and easy, 55 mph max, enjoying the sound and feel of that engine, and what basically amounts to the experience of riding a vintage bike. Yes I would also prefer points ignition and mechanical valves, but they would not change the character or appearance of the bike. Though high quality ones would likely be more reliable than what is on it. You can often troubleshoot and repair points ignition beside the road, not the case with electronic ignition. I'm just trying to get as close to what I originally wanted as possible.
"I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker"
"Buy the ticket, take the ride" Hunter S. Thompson


axman88

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,873
  • Karma: 1
  • Vintage Motorcycle Fan
Reply #62 on: August 01, 2021, 06:51:53 pm
With all this helpful input, the OP should be well on his way to making the modification he asked for information about.


dickim

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: 0
Reply #63 on: August 02, 2021, 01:10:02 am
👍Suitcase- Horses for Courses, and as long as we all get what we're chasing / looking for, all GOOD. I'm coping some shit for breaking a perfectly good MX5/ Miatta to build what I want - Ce La Vie (probably spelt wrong as I failed French🤣🤣)
2020 RE 650 GT (Mr Clean)
2014 C5
56 MGA
58 Healey 3000 (Resto in Progress)
2001 MX5 
2015 Mitsubishi Ute
2021 Camry Hybrid
Tipo 184 Kit ordered & awaiting delivery for build👍


Othen

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Karma: 0
Reply #64 on: August 02, 2021, 06:25:23 am
With all this helpful input, the OP should be well on his way to making the modification he asked for information about.

... I wonder whether our Canadian friend was serious about the modification. We have enjoyed a number of interesting tangents on the way :-)


gizzo

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,047
  • Karma: 0
  • purple people
Reply #65 on: August 02, 2021, 08:23:37 am
But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).
simon from south Australia
Continental GT
Pantah
DR250
DRZ400SM
C90
GSX250E


dickim

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: 0
Reply #66 on: August 02, 2021, 08:27:39 am
Went same way Gizzo  - Pwr Cmdr, K&N, and free flow exhaust from our Orig hosts- Black Friday Special 6yrs ago and faultless , 👍😀
2020 RE 650 GT (Mr Clean)
2014 C5
56 MGA
58 Healey 3000 (Resto in Progress)
2001 MX5 
2015 Mitsubishi Ute
2021 Camry Hybrid
Tipo 184 Kit ordered & awaiting delivery for build👍


gizzo

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,047
  • Karma: 0
  • purple people
Reply #67 on: August 02, 2021, 09:49:15 am
"I recall that Honda with the enclosed discs - and remember it seemed pointless at the time (in that it lost the main benefit of disc brakes over drums). I think you are right, it was just Honda proving it could be done (like oval pistons... and lots lots of other things)."

Honda VTR250. The brakes were fine. I sold it because the foot rests were so high.

I had one years ago. Put a XL500 motor in it. It went better than it stopped.
simon from south Australia
Continental GT
Pantah
DR250
DRZ400SM
C90
GSX250E


axman88

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,873
  • Karma: 1
  • Vintage Motorcycle Fan
Reply #68 on: August 02, 2021, 07:45:50 pm
Quote from: suitcasejefferson on July 31, 2021, 01:56:28 pm
But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).

I was wondering about our friends experimental control group too.  He says that " The RE was the first bike I ever bought with EFI, and I wasted no time in ditching that for an Amal carburetor setup with a conversion kit from Hitchcock's."

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=27422.msg315202#msg315202

If a person has never ridden any other EFI bike and wastes no time chucking their EFI in the trash bin, one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI.   How many miles were ridden with the (relatively early version) EFI before dumping it, what modifications had been made to the 2013 B5 Bullet that might have affected the EFI's functioning, and what, if any attempt was made to diagnose and correct any issues?

I've put 6300 miles on my first EFI motorcycle, ( 2012 C5), and there's things I like about it, like quick cold starting and ability to ride relatively smoothly when cold.  ( I ride down to about 28 degrees F)  and there's things I don't like about it, like cost of spares and the fact that I can't run the tank dry even for long term storage.  I'm considering going to carburetor.  If I do, I'd go whole hog, purge the ECU and sensors, convert to TCI, and an older, gravity feed tank, sell the original parts as spares, and end up with a profit in my pocket, not buy a pricey kit that leaves the ECU running in an endless error mode.  If I did make the conversion, I'd put a years riding into the conversion, including riding at the same cold temps I can ride at now, before I made my conclusions and sold off the EFI parts.


Guaire

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,981
  • Karma: 0
Reply #69 on: August 02, 2021, 11:35:16 pm
"...one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI."

One is wondering when Hitchcock's will require masks and a qualification tests to make a comment.
ACE Motors - sales & administration


Narada

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,434
  • Karma: 0
  • Riding the Madrass Missile!
Reply #70 on: August 02, 2021, 11:45:23 pm
Almost  10,000 miles with PC-V, and maybe the last 2,000 of that with the Auto Tune. That should qualify me to say...No complaints here!!!  8)

Btw, just blew my throttle body completely off of the intake boot from a cold start, low rpm take off, with high rpm cams, backfire.  :o

Wasn't sure what had happened for sure until I got home. My efi ran pretty darn good with nothing but vacuum holding the throttle body on, lol!  :)
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon; "Bholenath", Ported head by GHG, AVL Pistons, Hitchcocks H.P. Cams, PC-V, A/T,  Kenda-761's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

2015 Triumph T-100 Orange/Black, TTP Stage-2 induction
2012 Triumph Scrambler / Dauntless M-72D Sidecar.


suitcasejefferson

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,589
  • Karma: 0
Reply #71 on: August 03, 2021, 02:26:45 am
Is that 14k miles since the conversion, or all up? 'cause I'm at 50,000km on the efi with a very pleasant absence of failures and enjoy excellent functionality and performance (yes it has a powercommander and auto tune but mines a bit modded).

Yes that would be 14K+ miles after doing the carb conversion and exhaust, which I did with less than 1K miles on the bike. The improvement was immediate and very noticeable. It was almost like a different bike. Major improvement. And no, I can't say that improvement couldn't have been made with an electronic tuner. But that would have been more expensive, and would have added even more electronics to the bike, the last thing I wanted to do. Motorcycles and other mechanical things are my main hobby, electronics are not. And while I may not have had much experience with EFI on motorcycles, I have a boatload of it with EFI and electronics on other vehicles. For 38 years I was a mechanic for a large city fleet services department. I started that job in 1977, when most vehicles were carbureted. And I noticed the reliability of vehicles go downhill as they added more and more electronics over the decades since. Not only were they less reliable, but also far more difficult and expensive to repair. Of course we did not try to "tune" these vehicles, they were left completely stock. 

"I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker"
"Buy the ticket, take the ride" Hunter S. Thompson


Othen

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Karma: 0
Reply #72 on: August 03, 2021, 07:49:24 am
Quote from: suitcasejefferson on July 31, 2021, 01:56:28 pm
But I can say with absolute certainty, from 14K miles of experience, that replacing the EFI with an Amal carburetor will drastically increase the functionality, or at least the rideability, and reliability.

I was wondering about our friends experimental control group too.  He says that " The RE was the first bike I ever bought with EFI, and I wasted no time in ditching that for an Amal carburetor setup with a conversion kit from Hitchcock's."

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=27422.msg315202#msg315202

If a person has never ridden any other EFI bike and wastes no time chucking their EFI in the trash bin, one has to wonder about their qualifications to comment on the rideability and reliability of a bike WITH EFI.   How many miles were ridden with the (relatively early version) EFI before dumping it, what modifications had been made to the 2013 B5 Bullet that might have affected the EFI's functioning, and what, if any attempt was made to diagnose and correct any issues?

I've put 6300 miles on my first EFI motorcycle, ( 2012 C5), and there's things I like about it, like quick cold starting and ability to ride relatively smoothly when cold.  ( I ride down to about 28 degrees F)  and there's things I don't like about it, like cost of spares and the fact that I can't run the tank dry even for long term storage.  I'm considering going to carburetor.  If I do, I'd go whole hog, purge the ECU and sensors, convert to TCI, and an older, gravity feed tank, sell the original parts as spares, and end up with a profit in my pocket, not buy a pricey kit that leaves the ECU running in an endless error mode.  If I did make the conversion, I'd put a years riding into the conversion, including riding at the same cold temps I can ride at now, before I made my conclusions and sold off the EFI parts.

I've been following this particular tangent from a distance. I still cannot imagine why anyone would remove a working EFI system and replace it with a carburettor, but at least Axeman's approach is logical rather than emotional (and that I applaud).

The EFI system is there for environmental reasons, rather than performance; that in itself is a good reason for keeping it as we all take more responsibility for the planet, but as Axeman points out there are other benefits as well (cold starting and running).

The only reasonable scenario for swapping the EFI system for a carburettor I can think of will be when the motorcycle is 30 years old, something electronic fails and cannot be replaced (that will happen with lots of cars and more complex bikes, but may not be so likely with a simple Royal Enfield). In that case it might make sense to follow Axeman's route and remove every trace of the EFI system.

I have no dog in this fight (I'll be keeping my Pegasus edition standard whatever happens), but I can't help thinking the arguments for carburettors are based more or emotion than logic.

Ho hum :-).

Alan


Richard230

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,023
  • Karma: 0
Reply #73 on: August 03, 2021, 02:20:33 pm
Having owned about 35 motorcycles with carburetors I can see both sides of the technology.  I like carburetors because they are something that I can repair, replace and adjust myself. I also like them because (properly adjusted and setup) they provide a smooth throttle input when accelerating and during steady running.

But I also like fuel injection systems for their ability to usually get better gas mileage, easy startup and resistance to stalling, ability to adjust to both changes in elevation and temperature and they are more compact and don't dribble gas on the bike at times like most carburetors. What I really don't like about many FI systems, especially the ones from Yamaha, are their abrupt throttle response off of idle and the fact that you can't mess with them and now most dealers can't either as emission regulations tighten. As an example, in California, it is illegal to sell or install aftermarket mufflers, electronic devices that alter the FI programming, or any other device or adjustment that alters the factory's settings. Doing so can get you a $10,000 (or more) fine for each offense - although I will admit that plenty of vehicle owners (but not businesses) seem to find a way around all of the regulations, with limited results which are most obvious in the amount of noise that the vehicles make - based upon the amount of racket that "tuner" cars make as they pass by Alice's Restaurant during an early Sunday morning.   >:(
2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM Duke 390, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


Adrian II

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,120
  • Karma: 1
  • Sharing my ignorance with anyone who needs it
Reply #74 on: August 03, 2021, 04:50:36 pm
I notice there's only been one further comment from lowjoe himself so far. To be fair, I don't think he was asking about retro-fitting carburettors.

The flip side to all this drum brake stuff is fitting disk brake conversions to iron barrel REs. lowjoe might want to consider why people do this modification. Chennai were onto it nearly thirty years ago offering a set of knock-through spindle forks and disk brake front wheel as ACCESSORY items.

Some of us have been known to fit disk brake Indian RE front ends to our old Redditch models, a set of pre-2012 C5 or Electra-X forks will do it, depending on your choice of front fender mount. B5 for Fury owners... I love the look of the drum brakes but went to disk for my Fury replica (sort of) because the drum brake I had fitted simply wasn't as good, despite my attempts to set it up correctly. Another identical drum brake on my other RE works fine. ???

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...