[viczena]

At the moment you can sell every battery pack you can produce. For a good price.

Something different than useless H2 pilot projects. Which produce 1500 Euro deficit every day.

[Arschloch]

At the moment you can sell every battery pack you can produce. For a good price.

Something different than useless H2 pilot projects. Which produce 1500 Euro deficit every day.

The "good" news is that those factories are merely assembly plants which means should the battery cells reach the required performance one day the plants will be able to upgrade.

Who are the buyers though? The scrap yards? Some R&D projects? The crowd in Monaco with deep pockets? Some arabic Kingdom's?

In general I'm opposed to scale up the production of something when there is no solution that meets the criteria for a successful market launch. If you can't get the advantage of it being a novelty and pioneer like Tesla, you may have to seek a wide audience. That isn't possible with a battery that's high priced neither competitive to alternatives. I can drive my car on ethanol all day long and it will do the job still better than any BEV at s lower cost while being 100% CO2 free.

I rarely get my hands on vehicles with the "highest" top speed, or the "best" acceleration. So those marketing arguments don't work for me either.

[viczena]

I doubt it. Ethanol is quite costly and brings just 70% of gas. Driving with BEV is much cheaper. Even in germany.

[Arschloch]

I doubt it. Ethanol is quite costly and brings just 70% of gas. Driving with BEV is much cheaper. Even in germany.

I´m not sure I understand what you mean, however from experience I can tell you that the electric "varg" or better said wulf works in sweden only if you have no bullet at your hand.

[AzCal Retred]

@ # 446: It's a pilot project, yes? Blended H2 reduces net carbon emissions and improves fuel BTU content. 1 MW (400 kg) worth of H2 into a gas field line would likely be hard to measure. Current commercial PEM electrolyzers take around 50KW per KG of H2. Optimally a 1 MW electrolyzer makes about 20 Kg/Hr of H2, times 24 hours, 480 Kg. Poshydon claims 400 Kg and it's their data, but some agreement. Offshore Dutch wind production cost is 5-8 cents/KWH, so at a median 65 Euro/MWHr for 24 Hrs. you end up at roughly 1560 Euros "cost", and by your numbers 480 Euros "profit". In energy curtailment situations (high wind, minimal demand) there is no profit accruing to the windfarm owner as his equipment is idle. Intermittent sources are sidelined in favor of more predictable sources such as nuclear, natgas & coal for grid stability. The windfarm (or even suitable PV farm) owner can, by using the available electrolyzers, still easily store unsalable energy as a natgas blend inside the natgas transport & storage system, allowing participation during a higher usage time. Without the electrolyzers and gas line access, this isn't going to happen. Standard industrial volume & concentration metering hardware make billing possible.

https://www.offshore-energy.biz/netherlands-grants-poshydon-offshore-green-hydrogen-project/
The goal of the pilot is to gain experience in integrating energy systems at sea and the production of hydrogen in an offshore environment. In addition, the efficiency of an electrolyser with a variable supply from offshore wind will be tested.

[viczena]

If you would read more, you could read that the offshore production of H2 costs over 5$ per kg H2 (their own claim). And yes, it is not profitable. Not even close. Industrial H2 out of gas costs 2,5 $ per kg. And es still not near as cheap as electricity.

[AzCal Retred]

H2...maybe not quite as dead as you'd like. Daimler & Hyzon are demonstrably moving forward. Daimler's Daum had interesting things to say also. Being able to make your own fuel may become a big deal if 30% of the existing supply becomes unavailable soon. The Linde test plant article is focused on "decarbonizing" natgas, but they that mention H2 blends in existing infrastructure from 5% to 60% are possible without massive changes, just like was already known in the 1920's or so. It's good to have a back-up plan.

27 October 2021
https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/press-releases/bp-and-daimler-truck-ag-to-accelerate-the-deployment-of-hydrogen-infrastructure.html
Daimler Truck has the ambition to offer only new vehicles that are CO2-neutral in driving operation (“from tank to wheel”) in Europe, North America and Japan by 2039. The company is focussed on both CO2-neutral technologies, battery power and hydrogen-based fuel-cells. Currently, the truck manufacturer is testing a new enhanced prototype of its Mercedes-Benz GenH2 Truck on public roads in Germany. The first series-produced GenH2 Truck are expected to be handed over to customers starting in 2027.
Daimler Truck has a clear preference for liquid hydrogen. In this state, the energy carrier has a far higher energy density in relation to volume than gaseous hydrogen. As a result, the tanks of a fuel-cell truck using liquid hydrogen are much smaller and, due to the lower pressure, significantly lighter. This gives the trucks more cargo space and a higher payload. At the same time, more hydrogen can be carried, which significantly increases the trucks’ range. This will make the series version of the GenH2 Truck, like conventional diesel trucks, suitable for multi-day, difficult-to-plan long-haul transport and where the daily energy output is high.

12 November 2021
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/12/too-risky-to-not-use-battery-and-hydrogen-tech-daimler-truck-ceo.html
In his interview with CNBC, Daum was asked about the debate between battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell. “We go for both because both … make sense,” he replied, going on to explain how different technologies would be appropriate in different scenarios.
“In general, you can say: If you go to city delivery where you need lower amounts of energy in there, you can charge overnight in a depot, then it’s certainly battery electric,” he said.
“But the moment you’re on the road, the moment you go from Stockholm to Barcelona … in my opinion, you need something which you can transport better and where you can refuel better and that is ultimately H2.”
“The ruling is not out, but I think it’s too risky for a company our size to go with just one technology.”

https://hyzonmotors.com/

12 January 2022
https://www.h2-view.com/story/hyzon-motors-record-87-deliveries-of-hydrogen-fuel-cell-heavy-duty-trucks-in-2021/

20 December 2021
https://www.sustainable-bus.com/fuel-cell-bus/fuel-cell-buses-winter-olympic-china-2022-zhangjiakou/
" These vehicles will be used in transportation and logistics during the Olympics. Xinhua points out that 655 fuel cell buses are to be deployed in China during the 2022 Winter Olympic Games. Such a giant fleet is going to be put in operation in Zhangjiakou city, as the state-backed Xinhua News Agency reported on Monday. Currently, there are 444 hydrogen fuel cell buses in operation in Zhangjiakou, covering nine bus routes in the city. They have run more than 21 million km and carried more than 62 million passengers. "

20 January 2022
https://www.h2-view.com/story/linde-starts-up-worlds-first-plant-for-extracting-hydrogen-from-natural-gas-pipelines/
Linde Engineering is showcasing how hydrogen can be separated from natural gas streams at a first of its kind full-scale pilot plant in Dormagen, Germany.
John van der Velden, Senior Vice-President Global Sales and Technology at Linde Engineering, said, “The HISELECT® demonstration in Dormagen allows us to display essential technology for transporting hydrogen via natural gas pipelines in a real-life setting. It shows a way to leverage existing infrastructure. “In doing so we avoid the high costs and the long process that would be involved in building a dedicated hydrogen pipeline infrastructure.”

Looks like this EWE operation is intended for FCV usage, otherwise purity wouldn't be a big issue.
https://www.ewe.com/en/shaping-the-future/hydrogen/storing-hydrogen
"...the cavern will be filled with hydrogen for the first time in spring 2022...EWE expects initial findings in the second half of 2022 regarding how storage affects the purity of the hydrogen and how the integration of hydrogen into the German energy supply system can succeed. The test in Rüdersdorf is designed to look at the use of hydrogen in mobility, focusing on how storage affects the quality of the hydrogen. Before being used in heavy-duty transport, it goes through a drying plant to remove moisture from storage. "

Plan "B" may be LOHC if you don't have a cavern. "The corresponding saturated compound is thereby formed, which can be stored or transported under ambient conditions."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_organic_hydrogen_carriers
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/construction-and-operation-of-the-worlds-largest-project-plant-for-storing-green-hydrogen-in-liquid-organic-hydrogen-carrier-in-germany/

[GlennF]

I wonder if anyone has considered really really big elastic bands.

[Richard230]

Here is the latest from BMW (don't forget to bring your fat checkbook):  https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/bmw/2022-bmw-ce-04-review-first-ride.html

[viczena]

#456: If I want to travel from Stockholm to Barcelona, I need an airplane, not H2.

Ambition to offer new vehicles in 2039? Scary.

And liquid hydrogen? Really? 3 centigrades above zero? A nightmare to produce, store and keep safe. Nothing more expensive than that. And if you are really storing and transporting liquid H2, why not use superconductive motors? You already did the most expensive part of it.

600 H2 busses In Xinhua? The CCP will pay every money for prestige projects in the olympics. Despite 300.000 Electric buses already on the streets in China.

The rest is will be, wanna be. Germany throws sackloads of money in useless H2 developments. Shure there will always be grateful recipients for that money. With perfect marketing squak. Getting nice press releases, that again feeds the popularity of the politicians. All paid by taxpayers money.

The only places you see H2 technology is where money does not play a role, because the taxpayer is financing everything. But even in this case sometimes the polititians wake up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSeTHOCHryc

[Karl Childers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIlW-ovx0Y

[Richard230]

In this BMW promotional video regarding the design of the CE 04. The presenter mentions their selection of a long flat seat as allowing the rider to adjust his/her position while riding and not be forced into one location by the contoured design of the seat. (Just like the way motorcycle seats used to be designed many years ago. Still not a bad idea. )  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TimIdXXmkYk

Here is a link to a BMW promotional video regarding the technical design of the scooter. I found the technology and build quality impressive, as you might expect from BMW. The 5-year warranty is also a nice feature. However, the design of the accessory saddlebag doesn't get me too excited. Perhaps offering a removable hard case also would be a good idea. Also shown was a taller windscreen, which certainly could be larger to offer better protection. Interestingly there was no mention of weather protection, which you would think would be important for a scooter mostly designed for city usage:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUrRL979gHk

[AzCal Retred]

@ # 459:   " Ambition to offer new vehicles in 2039? "
Alongside battery electric vehicles, Daimler Truck is also focusing on what it describes as “hydrogen-based fuel cell electric vehicles.” To this end, it is targeting a network of 150 refueling stations and 5,000 “heavy-duty hydrogen trucks” by the year 2030.

" If I want to travel from Stockholm to Barcelona, I need an airplane, not H2 " Nice out of context response!  The article was referencing heavy long haul truck needs.

" The only places you see H2 technology is where money does not play a role "
Yup - like that Air Liquide H2 storage cavern in Beaumont Texas. I doubt that private enterprise picks the most expensive way to do anything.

Or these operational Aussie projects:
https://www.hydrogenenergysupplychain.com/dawn-of-australias-hydrogen-industry/
Today’s arrival of the world’s first liquefied hydrogen carrier, the Suiso Frontier, in Victoria marks the success of the Hydrogen Energy Supply Chain (HESC) Pilot Project and the dawn of Australia’s hydrogen industry.
ATCO has a microgrid project that has been operational since 2019 in Jandakot, Western Australia.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/hydrogen-power-plant-would-already-be-profitable-analysts-say/

[viczena]

As long as you pretend on german and aussie promises, you are doomed. Painting that helpless effort in red and blue does not make it better. As does repeating old wishful thinking.

H2 is on demand as long as there are large subsidies. At the moment you have to pay at least your operational cost by yourself you find out, that it costs 6 times more than BEV.

And a lot of people ask the question, where we get all the energy for the BEV cars and trucks from. If so, where do we get 4 times more of that energy to produce and use H2?

[Arschloch]

@456: Daimler is currently run by the swedes, and the CEO is a swede. What they going to do or probably already did is squeeze the cash cows as much as possible up till and beyond the breaking point, stuff all money into pointless project's like the H2 vehicles and infrastructure, that not going anywhere however good for filtrating cash into the pockets of choice. The remains may in the end land up being sold to the chinese.