Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

General Discussion => Campfire Talk => Topic started by: JessHerbst on November 28, 2021, 07:43:55 pm

Title: British bikes now Indian
Post by: JessHerbst on November 28, 2021, 07:43:55 pm
Royal Enfield is an old story with Indian ownership being its savior. Now we see Norton and BSA being resurrected by Indian companies.
 Is India in the new normal in the motorcycle industry?

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/general-news/bsa-motorcycles-to-make-a-comeback-company-teases-launch-on-social-media/43972/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10190635/New-Norton-Motorcycles-HQ-opens.html
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Nitrowing on November 28, 2021, 09:08:50 pm
India versus China in a race to produce unreliable clones of old tech.
The new normal doesn't bode well  :-[
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 28, 2021, 09:38:18 pm
JH - good finds! Whatever BSA & Norton do, if the machines are as good as the RE's 650 & the 350 Meteor, they will be winners. In the article Norton was suggesting a range of bikes, hopefully including some of the excellent 250cc - 400cc Indian or Euro offerings we haven't yet seen in the USA. The Norton change of ownership news was a surprise, but the article mentioned a very recent buy out. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on November 28, 2021, 10:25:51 pm
The only real advantage of making bikes in Britain was access to the EU.

Post Brexit it makes far more sense to move that sort of thing off shore.  India at least was part of the Empire and has a strong British tradition dating back to the days of the Raj. At least they are not moving to Bulgaria or Peru.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Karl Childers on November 29, 2021, 12:33:57 am
I've owned two 750 Commando's over the years and enjoyed them but it wouldn't be hard to beat their reliability even after some modern upgrades. The previous attempt to revive Norton was the one that had me wanting one. I see ownership by an Indian company being able to mass produce cookie cutter facsimiles but some fit and finish and mojo maybe missing.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Yinzer on November 29, 2021, 01:02:13 am
...Now we see Norton and BSA being resurrected by Indian companies.
 Is India in the new normal in the motorcycle industry?
The articles suggest that Norton & BSA will both be constructed in England.
Not sure if that will help them compete with RE.
Wasn't the last Norton $29,000?...Yipes!
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 29, 2021, 02:55:45 am
Maybe the Brit buildings are just assembly points for knocked-down Indian machines. Royal Enfield did that in Argentina recently, just a few guys with air tools assembling knocked down 650's in a nice building, which apparently qualifies as "Hecho en Argentina"? I'm with you, Yinzer, a $30K machine would be a tough sell. Hopefully we'll see some of those 6 speed, 30 HP 300cc twins come this way.

As has been mentioned before, the current market knows nothing of Norton or BSA, so they'll have to sell on either performance or price to new buyers. The market for one-off $30K Nortons is waaay too small to worry about, so I hope there will be a "line" of reasonable performance, affordable Norton badged hardware soon. BSA's supposed to start up with a bang in a week or so, it'll be interesting.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Karl Childers on November 29, 2021, 05:27:51 am
The articles suggest that Norton & BSA will both be constructed in England.
Not sure if that will help them compete with RE.
Wasn't the last Norton $29,000?...Yipes!

At that stage of the game they were pretty much hand made bikes that had not made it to full mass production, you were looking at boutique pricing, they were still a ways away from establishing dealerships, fully ramping up and realistic pricing before the bottom dropped out. You can't compare that pricing to what a full fledged company like Honda or Harley Davidson could have done with the same design. That incarnation of Norton was still in the minors and hadn't made it to the majors yet. Now get ready for "squint your eyes and it does kind of resemble a Norton". The last Norton was a sweet machine that died in child birth. Given the circumstances I can already envision what the next wave will be.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on November 29, 2021, 05:38:56 am
maybe they will look like this little ripper ...

(https://webbikeworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/88Norton-Classic-Rotary-R.jpg)
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Warwick on November 29, 2021, 09:03:35 am
Mahindra done a great job with the jawa so why not the BSA. Good on em. Any brand that get kids on 2 wheels is good. Some great videos on youtube regarding the new Norton brand including with the new CEO
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Arschloch on November 29, 2021, 09:36:46 am
Mahindra done a great job with the jawa so why not the BSA. Good on em. Any brand that get kids on 2 wheels is good. Some great videos on youtube regarding the new Norton brand including with the new CEO

+1, as long as the swedish titts are not involved it can only be a success.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: tooseevee on November 29, 2021, 12:25:46 pm
maybe they will look like this little ripper ...

(https://webbikeworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/88Norton-Classic-Rotary-R.jpg)

           Wow. That's the first picture I've ever seen of that bike. Very unusual look to that engine. 
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Karl Childers on November 29, 2021, 01:40:28 pm
Wankle rotary engine.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 29, 2021, 07:21:55 pm
The only real advantage of making bikes in Britain was access to the EU.

Post Brexit it makes far more sense to move that sort of thing off shore.  India at least was part of the Empire and has a strong British tradition dating back to the days of the Raj. At least they are not moving to Bulgaria or Peru.

Actually, Bulgaria, historically at least, wouldn't be much of a stretch from that whole "British Imperial Thing", seeing as how the Bulgarian Royal Family is merely another branch of the very same Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family that's just been going by the more British-sounding assumed name of "Windsor" since World War I. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha. In fact "The Last Czar of Bulgaria" actually served for several years as Prime Minister after the country threw off the Communist yoke. Hence, dynastically-speaking at least, one might plausibly argue that a bike made in Bulgaria would be FAR more akin to Britain and The Empire than some Thai-made Triumph.

As for Peru, it at least neighbors Brazil, which together with Uruguay was ruled as an Empire through much of the 19th Century by the very same family.

And, as many know, Royal Enfield has recently opened an assembly factory in Argentina. Now while Argentina has had no monarch since gaining her independence from Spain, the current Queen Consort of the Netherlands was born there, and her husband the King is of the very same family that gave Britain King William III of "William & Mary" fame. So, the ties that bind are fairly close there too.

And really...Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't like to at least try one of these svelte and lovely Bulgarian-made Balkan 250s?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Balkan01.jpg)
"Seize the means of production...OF FUN!!!"

Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Keef Sparrow on November 29, 2021, 08:04:22 pm
The articles suggest that Norton & BSA will both be constructed in England.
Not sure if that will help them compete with RE.
Wasn't the last Norton $29,000?...Yipes!
They did start off making the 'new' Nortons in England. They seemed really good bikes but were made to order and really expensive - made Triumphs look cheap! Unfortunately there were some very shady business dealings going on behind the scenes and basically they had no money and went out of business before having and Indian company buy out all the production rights. Last I heard was that limited production was supposed to be starting soon in yet another new factory in the UK....
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 29, 2021, 08:42:38 pm
@ #13: Bilgemaster - expanding horizons since time immoral...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_(motorcycle)

https://mymotorcycleclub.com/balkan/c2-250/1963?videoId=nsLLC0b8C8k

Check out that euro-spec enclosed chain!
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on November 29, 2021, 10:24:06 pm
           Wow. That's the first picture I've ever seen of that bike. Very unusual look to that engine.

As Karl says, it is a twin cylinder Wankel Rotary.

Norton even developed a race version in the late '80s but racing a Rotary always causes issues for race rule makers trying to slot them into a class as the exact equivalent engine capacity of a rotary versus equivalent piston engines is a matter of hot contention.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Richard230 on November 29, 2021, 10:24:58 pm
Those photos of the Balkan motorcycles sure look a lot like 1950's and 1960's Jawas to me.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Bilgemaster on November 30, 2021, 12:23:47 am
Those photos of the Balkan motorcycles sure look a lot like 1950's and 1960's Jawas to me.

Good eye. That might be because Balkan sent three of their engineers north for "training" to the Jawa-ČZ factory. [Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_(motorcycle)]. Back then during that era of happy socialist workers' paradises they had a cooperative economic bloc under Soviet leadership known in English as the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance or COMECON that fostered that sort of thing. And fun fact, under such auspices most likely those Balkan engineers traveled to Czechoslovakia with the help of the Soviet era travel agency "Intourist". And you know what they said about Intourist, right? "Intourist is to tourism what indigestion is to digestion".
 Well, that's my time ladies and germs. I'll be here all week, and don't forget to tip your waitress!

And thank you for the kudos, 'AZCal Retred,' for I am indeed "alleged in my own time" and that chatty elder-geezer you'd regret sitting next to on the bus.

For those interested in the sexy-sounding Wankel thing, YouTube's 'FortNine' just dropped a fresh video on the breed. Mostly featuring the Hercules, Norton and others also get honorable mentions as victims of the "Wankel Curse": https://youtu.be/-3HBAvkc4a0

Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 30, 2021, 12:39:32 am
Apparently Jawa saved the "secret kickstart lever" kludge for their own hardware - the shifter doubled as the KS lever, just pull it out & it springs up to engage the KS cogs. The Balkan has a separate lever, adding ever so much weight....
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GSS on November 30, 2021, 01:33:06 am
The Jawa kick starter/gear change lever was spectacular! Most minimalistic bike I ever owned!

Mahindra and TVS are solid companies and bode well for BSA and Norton respectively.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on November 30, 2021, 03:39:16 am
As the proud??  owner of many vehicles of British origin in the past including products by British Leyland, Morris Garages and Vauxhall and with friends owning everything from Land/Range Rovers, Jags, Mini Coopers and Rileys through to Triumphs and Nortons ... I am somewhat unsure where the misconception that "British Made = High Quality" is actually coming from :D
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 30, 2021, 04:26:06 am
WHAT!!!  The car that conquered Africa? It was the best there was when it was all there was... ;D
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on November 30, 2021, 04:36:28 am
Other India-ish ring dings....turn up your pacemakers!  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhHcnOgxvqE
Yezdi roadking vs rajdoot vs jawa vs yezdi model B
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on November 30, 2021, 05:09:02 am
WHAT!!!  The car that conquered Africa? It was the best there was when it was all there was... ;D

lol ... mates had a couple of Series III ...  have you ever tried to drive one up a really steep slope  - the engine floods or something and cuts out when you get to more than about a 40 degree slope and then it is winch time or roll backwards to the bottom . Sort of like the 4WD equivalent of the RR Merlin flooding under neg G problem in early spitfires. At least they do not rust.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Karl Childers on November 30, 2021, 11:23:15 am
Land Rovers had a tendency to break their leaf springs, it was common to see one used for rough service to have an extra bolted to the front bumper.

As for British built conveyances it is pure nostalgia for me. My teen years spanned the late 60's and early 70's when my motorcycle lust was at a fever pitch. In the States that meant choices of Japanese, American or British bikes. Honda's were viewed as a stepping stone to a "real" motorcycle which meant British or American bikes to the kids I hung out with and we all gravitated to British as Harley's Sportsters could be very hard to start and didn't quite fit our long haired pot smoking value system, at least not until Easy Rider came out in 69. Greasers rode Harleys we had to have British. Bob Dylan rode a Triumph, so did Arlo Guthrie and Mike Nesmith, Steve McQueen too so there was that strong adolescent need for image and cultural alignment with your value system that brought you to the motorcycle you rode regardless of its true mechanical merits. A well known photograph from Woodstock has a Triumph parked in a sea of concert goers, you knew the Harley riders were parked up the road harassing and beating up hippies, such was the cultural divide at that time. I've never lost my love for the old stuff and regardless of what I'm currently riding I have a need for something old and British in the garage as a touchstone to an innocent and simpler time in my life. You can't go back again but depending on what you are riding you can still get a glimpse of it in your rear view mirror.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: tooseevee on November 30, 2021, 12:35:06 pm
Land Rovers had a tendency to break their leaf springs, it was common to see one used for rough service to have an extra bolted to the front bumper.

As for British built conveyances it is pure nostalgia for me. My teen years spanned the late 60's and early 70's when my motorcycle lust was at a fever pitch. In the States that meant choices of Japanese, American or British bikes. Honda's were viewed as a stepping stone to a "real" motorcycle which meant British or American bikes to the kids I hung out with and we all gravitated to British as Harley's Sportsters could be very hard to start and didn't quite fit our long haired pot smoking value system, at least not until Easy Rider came out in 69. Greasers rode Harleys we had to have British. Bob Dylan rode a Triumph, so did Arlo Guthrie and Mike Nesmith, Steve McQueen too so there was that strong adolescent need for image and cultural alignment with your value system that brought you to the motorcycle you rode regardless of its true mechanical merits. A well known photograph from Woodstock has a Triumph parked in a sea of concert goers, you knew the Harley riders were parked up the road harassing and beating up hippies, such was the cultural divide at that time. I've never lost my love for the old stuff and regardless of what I'm currently riding I have a need for something old and British in the garage as a touchstone to an innocent and simpler time in my life. You can't go back again but depending on what you are riding you can still get a glimpse of it in your rear view mirror.

        Sounds like your early history is similar to mine, but it sounds like maybe you're 10 or so years younger than I. I'm 83 & was 18 in 1956.

        I was solidly imprinted on harleys from 11 years old on in 1949, but also spent hundreds of hours during those young years staring at dozens of brochures of foreign bikes and scooters that I ordered from Popular Mechanics & Mechanics Illustrated.

        Dylan also owned a harley before he owned the Triumph. He sold it when he left Hibbing. I have also read somewhere that he owned another harley for a time while he was living in some southern state, I believe, to record an album at a particular recording studio. I can't recall now which album that was.

        Dylan also wrote a bare bones few lines of The River Flows & gave it to Fonda telling him to give it to Roger McGuinn who would "know what to do with it. The song that McGuinn wrote was the last song in the movie where the camera pulls up & away from Wyatt's bike burning in the field. Dylan had some kind of kerfuffle with Fonda for using his name in the credits without his permission.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Richard230 on November 30, 2021, 02:21:09 pm
When I was a teenager, the goal was to get off of my WWII single-speed American Flyer bicycle and own a Cushman motor scooter, the one with the clutch and hand-change gear shift. British motorcycles were not even on my radar as I didn't believe that I would ever make enough money to actually own one. (Besides, my nearest motorcycle dealer sold the Tohatsu Runpet and Italian mopeds, which were the only vehicles that kids in my neighborhood could afford.) My older well-fed cousins, on the other hand, bought a Mustang Pony and then promptly managed to destroy it before I ever got a chance to ride it.  :(  Then they bought a 1958 Sears Roebuck 125 and after turning that poor thing into mush, gave it to me because they couldn't sell it with half of its parts missing the the rear wheel partially collapsed from trying to use the little hard-tail bike as a "scrambler" while carrying both of them.   ::)
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Guaire on November 30, 2021, 02:29:59 pm
Royal Enfield is an old story with Indian ownership being its savior. Now we see Norton and BSA being resurrected by Indian companies.
 Is India in the new normal in the motorcycle industry?

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-features/general-news/bsa-motorcycles-to-make-a-comeback-company-teases-launch-on-social-media/43972/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-10190635/New-Norton-Motorcycles-HQ-opens.html

Thailand has been a major manufacturer for years. Hondas. The Kawasaki EX250. Triumph and others.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Karl Childers on November 30, 2021, 03:32:52 pm
        Sounds like your early history is similar to mine, but it sounds like maybe you're 10 or so years younger than I. I'm 83 & was 18 in 1956.

        I was solidly imprinted on harleys from 11 years old on in 1949, but also spent hundreds of hours during those young years staring at dozens of brochures of foreign bikes and scooters that I ordered from Popular Mechanics & Mechanics Illustrated.

        Dylan also owned a harley before he owned the Triumph. He sold it when he left Hibbing. I have also read somewhere that he owned another harley for a time while he was living in some southern state, I believe, to record an album at a particular recording studio. I can't recall now which album that was.

        Dylan also wrote a bare bones few lines of The River Flows & gave it to Fonda telling him to give it to Roger McGuinn who would "know what to do with it. The song that McGuinn wrote was the last song in the movie where the camera pulls up & away from Wyatt's bike burning in the field. Dylan had some kind of kerfuffle with Fonda for using his name in the credits without his permission.

Thanks for the Dylan/ Easy Rider trivia, a hobby of mine if you can call it that is collecting stories from the 1960's counter culture, the music, the communes, the events of that era, any backstory I can get is always helpful, I'd like to think I could write a book on it one of these days, even if I don't the knowledge gained is worth something to me.

Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: 60sRetro on December 01, 2021, 01:20:07 am
It isn't just British bikes, KTM is partnered with Bajaj.

https://marketfeed.news/the-bajaj-auto-ktm-collaboration/

Check out this promo for the KTM Great Ladakh Adventure Tour. I have a friend who ran logistics for this trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m_cgGaXhQw

India is doing some cool stuff with bikes. It's great if they want to rescue the British classics.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on December 01, 2021, 03:34:35 am

India is doing some cool stuff with bikes. It's great if they want to rescue the British classics.

The British Classics date from a time when motorcycles like Royal Enfield and BSA were the average working mans daily transport. 

In Britain motorcycles are now toys for the most part, used for recreation and the odd weekend day trip.

In India on the other hand, the motorcycle is still the typical daily transport of millions of working men. 

If anything the Indian market has continued the great British tradition of motorcycles for the masses that Britain seems to have forgot.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: gizzo on December 01, 2021, 04:11:44 am


India is doing some cool stuff with bikes. It's great if they want to rescue the British classics.

They're not rescuing anything. They're cashing in on another country's heritage and claiming it for their own. India has an amazing culture going back thousands of years, rich in science, technology and art.

It'd be great to see them make products inspired by their own history instead of appropriating from any culture they think they can make a buck from.

An Indian bike with a rebirthed brand on the tank is no more the real thing than a crappy Chinese hatchback is a  real MG, no matter what the badge on the bootlid says.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on December 01, 2021, 05:04:07 am

An Indian bike with a rebirthed brand on the tank is no more the real thing than a crappy Chinese hatchback is a  real MG, no matter what the badge on the bootlid says.

How is a Triumph made in Thailand or Harley Davidson from Brazil or India any different ?   

One of the reason Moto Guzzi appeal to me is they are still manufactured in Mandello where the company first set up shop back in the 1920's .

Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: gizzo on December 01, 2021, 07:01:05 am
How is a Triumph made in Thailand or Harley Davidson from Brazil or India any different ?   

I didn't say it was any different. But seeing you ask, I do think it's different because there's continuity. It's the same company, making products in different places. Just because you move house, doesn't make you a different family. But paying money for a title in Scotland doesn't make you a real lord, either.
And FWIW in my imagination triumph is still l the real thing because bloor bought the ashes of triumph as it coasted to a halt, let Harris use the name until his modular bikes were ready then had at it. There's continuity. He never dragged a 50 year defunct label from the dustbin and slapped it on.
IMO, YMMY, FWIW etc.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: GlennF on December 01, 2021, 08:04:12 am
I understand, it is a bit like establishing provenance for an artwork.

Personally not sure if it counts for much especially when the current triumphs are really nothing like the classic ones but it clearly works for them in terms of sales.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 01, 2021, 08:46:24 am
@ GlennF # 31: +1 to that. The old IB Bullet is chock full of clever thinking that aids the maintenance chores of the everyman. That heavy-flywheel, long stroke engine is a fuel sipper & gets whatever traction there is to be gotten out of the tires. Not a racer, just a good solid workhorse.

The Indian market is full of small displacement, highly fuel efficient motorcycles. I think the Honda uni-cam CG's were designed for such markets. Lots of cast wheels on quasi-road-racery looking bikes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motorcycle_manufacturers
Indian Motorcycle Manufacturers:
Bajaj Auto (including KTM)
Hero Motocorp
Mahindra Two Wheelers
Royal Enfield
TVS Motors
Ather Energy
Honda 2 Wheelers India
Suzuki Motorcycles India
India Yamaha Motors
Jawa Motors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajaj_CT_100
Overview: The CT 100 replaced the Bajaj Boxer. The new CT-100 have the same four-stroke, 99.27 cc (6.058 cu in) engine as the Boxer. It came with a "Ride Control" switch which enables the rider to select between the economy and power mode; this feature was scrapped in the later models. The CT 100 used to give apx up to 104 km/l mileage (240 MPG!!), but current modifications due to emission standards have reduced its mileage capability to around 75 kmpl(175 MPG).
 
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: 60sRetro on December 01, 2021, 01:15:40 pm
They're not rescuing anything. They're cashing in on another country's heritage and claiming it for their own.
The British were in India for what, almost 300 years? India was the crown jewel in the British empire. The histories and cultures of Britain and India are deeply interwoven, and that was true long before someone put the first motor on a bicycle.

It's completely appropriate to see Indian ingenuity breathing life into the British classics.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Bilgemaster on December 01, 2021, 04:39:59 pm
The British were in India for what, almost 300 years? India was the crown jewel in the British empire. The histories and cultures of Britain and India are deeply interwoven, and that was true long before someone put the first motor on a bicycle.

It's completely appropriate to see Indian ingenuity breathing life into the British classics.

...Particularly as Chicken Tikka Masala or Chicken Curry has more or less become the national dish of England.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: cyrusb on December 01, 2021, 05:20:21 pm
It's only fitting that India produce and ride British machines.
 Earlier, it was the British who rode Indian machines.....
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: gizzo on December 01, 2021, 08:04:28 pm
The British were in India for what, almost 300 years? India was the crown jewel in the British empire. The histories and cultures of Britain and India are deeply interwoven, and that was true long before someone put the first motor on a bicycle.

It's completely appropriate to see Indian ingenuity breathing life into the British classics.
I completely agree. RE is a great example. The IB, then the AVL and UCE have been made in India since what, 1956ish? when the tooling was sent from RE in England to India. They've been at it ever since. They actually did breath life back into a British classic and have done a great job.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: AzCal Retred on December 01, 2021, 08:53:06 pm
RE India have been building Bullets for about as long as Royal Enfield existed in England, 1901 - 1971 vs . 1956 - 2021; 70 vs. 65 years. As has been pointed out, these are workingman machines, and I believe they survived because form followed function, like the scorpion or horseshoe crab. As long as you don't frag the crank, virtually every other engine or drivetrain maintenance operation can be carried out with the engine in the frame. Accessible, appropriate technology for the intended users.
Title: Re: British bikes now Indian
Post by: Adrian II on December 01, 2021, 10:29:38 pm
...Particularly as Chicken Tikka Masala or Chicken Curry has more or less become the national dish of England.

Don't think this hasn't gone unnoticed by our Indian friends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTDQctgaYI

A.