[Dirge]

Hallo folks I've just bought one of these things (couldn't resist a handsome bike of the period with higher spec than most and such great ability to baffle onlookers) and it is even harder than I expected finding out anything about them.  I'm wondering if any of you could give some insights into how these things were perceived by their American customers?    Were they all sold with competition in mind?  (if you wanted a road bike you bought a Chief or whatever maybe?)  I'm guessing with the higher tuned motor this was what RE expected. (i've seen 30hp quoted.  That would be fun.)

According to the REOC mine is a 1958 'West Coast Woodsman' (which seems to be how RE described 'Westerners' pre delivery)  Again,  supposedly that makes it one of only a couple of hundred made total but mine is not 'normal'.  It has the mid 50's cases with a magdyno,  not the later ones with the bulgy mag drive casing.  Engine swap you'd think,  but the number,  which looks very kosher, is clearly stamped, looks un-monkeyed with and the REOC say it's the right number for the frame.  Dealer engine swap?  New replacement motor straight out of the box when it threw a rod and stamped up to suit? Or were RE using up old crankcases gratuitously?  Or perhaps a special order for a westerner with lights and they felt the magdyno more appropriate than having a bloody great alternator sticking out so used old cases for the mag platform?  Before anyone says 'Oh it's a Woodsman' it has the 19" front wheel,  the steel top yoke, a westerner pipe and remember what the factory records say.

I had picked up the mismatch of motor and rolling chassis before I started haggling.  I thought I was buying an 'all Indian' bitsa.  Now I'm told that it has the right engine number I'm intrigued. 

I'm not talking big head jobs here,  just to be clear.  Simply ordinary engines.  Well with the scrambles tweaks,  so fairly ordinary.  Although if you want to sell me your spare big head I'd be tempted. it would be just another period mod...

[Adrian II]

It could be quite a simple explanation. My understanding is that since the Westerners were normally intended for off-road competition use, they would not have had lighting kits as stock, just a manually controlled Lucas N1 magneto, so no need for an alternator crank or timing cover bulge for an auto-advance unit. If someone really wanted a full lighting set on a Westerner which had already been built, the easiest way would have been to fit a magdyno in place of the N1 rather than an engine swap.



www.re-indian.com

Another clue here:



http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/500cc-Bullet-and-500cc-Big-Head/18873

Parts books still available:

http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/16331

The big head Westerners are even rarer than yours, only 20 built as the fore-runner of the RE Fury.

As for the Woodsman, someone at Redditch apparently HAD decided to use this model as a way of using up older parts. The '56 still had the older frame when UK Bullets swapped to the later one, and even with the new frame for the '57 models they still had magdynos instead of the alternator/SR1 mag set-up. 1958 seems to have been the changeover year as far as these were concerned.

A.

[grumbern]

Yeah, I also think it's allright. The Westerners also had a tacho-drive on the timing cover, at least sometimes and the pictures found online and in ads definitely say magneto only.

Any pictures?!
Andreas

[Adrian II]

Looking at the catalog picture there seems to be an Amal TT carb fitted, but if the magneto were to be replaced by a magdyo that configuration wouldn't work without a quite substantial spacer between the carb and the head to allow the carb to clear the top of the dynamo.

This is interesting as I have seen very few Westerners pictured, though this one is on Craig's List.





https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/d/albuquerque-1956-indian/6819621374.html

Surviving Woodsmen(?) seem almost plentiful by comparison. +1 to Grumbern's photo request.

A.

[ERC]

I have an original service manual for the Woodsman the Westerner is a stripped down version of the Woodsman with a provision for a tach. straight through exhaust, sump plate, Amal TT carb. No provision for lights. Made 57-59.  ERC

[Dirge]

You are right of course,  the 'swapped the N1 for the magdyno to fit lights' is probably the simplest solution.  It also fits the 'The previous owner was going to make a bobber and did a fair amount of work' comment from the seller because that 'fair amount of work' isn't obvious elsewhere.  Silly fork extensions,  apehangers,  not much else.  Probably a larger tank (I simply can't decide from pictures).

Hitchcocks' dating of that gasket set is interesting indeed.  The bike is nominally a '58 model but actually left the factory in late '57.  Last of the older motors perhaps?  Perhaps that's why there is no rev-counter drive plate.  Using up the last castings again.

Westerners came with TT carbs in the catalogue but a mate of mine made the very credible comment that people tended to swap TT's for monoblocs routinely even on race machines because the TT gave a marginal flat out advantage and not much else,  whereas a monobloc brought a tickover and much better starting.  And I hadn't even thought about clearance on the magdyno,  but that makes sense too.

Well thank you folks,  that's rather cheering.  I live in NZ so have done all this on remote.  (You want one of these?  You're shopping in the states!)  The bike gets to Auckland on monday and it's probably still a fortnight until I actually get to see it for myself.    I knew buying this would be a bit of a punt.  I was ready to be happy if it turned out to be a bitsa Indian but a westerner was scooping the pool and I have got exactly that.  Not only that, but I am, thanks to you lot,  happy the core of it all belongs together. 

I've got spares and repair manuals coming with the thing,  by the way,  so thanks for the suggestions there but I'm OK at the moment.  I hope they may answer a few more questions too.

I looked into buying the bike in the picture;  it photographs well but the official paperwork quotes the wrong frame number,  (uses a casting number) and engine number (quotes something stamped obscurely on the back of the crankcase when there is a bloody great engine number prominently where you would expect it) and bells started ringing with close up pictures.  I went for one with more obvious warts.  You may have seen it on Ebay.  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1958-Indian-INDIAN/113651399453?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
 I know, it's not pretty at the moment.

Extensive googling of the things and it seems every westerner known has lost the rear mudguard/luggage rack assy and has one of those tiny 'Bates' style saddles fitted. It's what you did apparently.  I may have to keep the solo saddle.

[Adrian II]

Ah THIS one!



Why DO they insist on ruining classic bikes? Fortunately it's all reclaimable.

The missing rear mudguard/fender loop is part number 46079 over at Hitchcocks'.



Sadly the joker who "built" this has also hacked the handlebar mount off from the back of the top yoke and had it welded back on in front of the steering stem, which is all wrong. Hitchcocks' are still listing used Fury top yokes under USED366, use the clamp off your existing yoke.





I assume you're onto these as you say you have spares on order, but repro chainguards, dual seats and small chrome panel tanks are still available. Your local(?) classic Brit Bike shop should have alloy mudguards, Indian Bullet front stays will be fine.

Probably the most authentic-looking way of mounting a battery would be to copy the Woodsman and Fury and run a wide strip of 2mm steel plate down from a couple of P-clips off the top tube and bolt the bottom to the top l/h gearbox stud with a bracket. One of the 50's repro battery carriers can then be bolted to the left hand side. The Bates headlamp is probably fine, but if you want to go down the Lucas 7" route you might want a set of Fury fork shrouds and brackets to go with it.

As Grumbern has just finished his Indian Chief restoration (well worth a look if you haven't already seen it), we look forward to seeing another of Royal Enfield's Indians restored!

A.

[Dirge]

I hadn't picked up the butchered top yoke.  Damn. Hadn't looked past the 'how much damage was done when he fitted the fork extensions?' question probably (I decided with a bit of luck not much,  and if you disagree keep it to yourself for now!)  Mind you thinking about it  it'll put the bars a bit forward.  I might not mind too much for now (I'm over 6ft)

I'm trying not to get too rigid in my ideas until I see it.  I'm not interested in trading perceived pose value for steering geometry though,  so the 'chopper styling' definitely goes.  After that it probably depends on whether it seems mechanically sound at least for now.  It looks fairly together to me and I'm quite game to have some fun with the scruffbag version and collect other bits for later.  We shall see.

I saw that rear subframe and decided it wasn't quite like the original.  They seem simpler and to go wide from outside the shock mounts.  I've sourced one anyway.  Yes alloy guards for now.  I got a real seat but recovered in more custom style (right shape but all black and the top is in 2" strips) with it.  Again,  no decision until I get to see it.  The solo seat seems so de rigeur for anything a bit 'desert racer' that I may keep it.  Saves me worrying about the pillion mounts too.

Tanks would appear simple but the Indian ones all seem to be a bit small 2 gall not 2.5   (That half a gallon might be the difference in getting to the garage...).  And finding the tank badges may be a pest.  I get the impression that the chap in Australia who made a batch has freed up the situation but he's sold out so I still need a bit of luck to actually find some.  All this has been sternly put to one side until the beast arrives.

I'm excited about it.  After all if this beast was a BSA it would be a gold star,  wouldn't it?

[Adrian II]

'm excited about it.  After all if this beast was a BSA it would be a gold star, wouldn't it?

Mmm... perhaps the alloy barrel BSA B34 or Matchless G80CS scramblers would be the closest comparable bikes? The Fury (and by extension big head Westerner) were what Redditch hoped would be the Goldie-beaters, and they did very well in US flat-track racing, at least when the alloy con-rods didn't let go under the stress of competition use.  Oh well, it boosts the rarity value of the survivors, so no worries. The Woodsman and Westerner meanwhile were already in a higher state of tune than the 500 roadster Bullet of the period, so when you strip the engine I would hope for you to find a high-comp piston, "R" cams and a well-ported head. In which case you will have something to give you the desired blast as well as blat. We will need to see photos of the resulting grin on your face, of course.

For serious WOT use the 62 year-old alloy con-rod probably won't add to the chances of this bike's continuing survival, so at the very least a NOS Redditch con-rod, better still a steel con-rod and needle roller big end, which will need a bit of crank balancing.

As for the lightly butchered front end it could be worse, though I'm on a bit of a learning curve myself with this particular set-up. It should have the normal Redditch forks for the period EXCEPT for the stanchion tops which are plain and not threaded, more like the model G forks. If the brass tops I can see ARE extensions they don't look too extreme. One of my Redditch frame bitsas has this top yoke with its original handlebar mount behind the steering stem intact, which is fine for me - I'm 6'2". See attached photos.

You're right to concentrate on sorting out a good runner first and worry about the cosmetics later. The slimmer tanks were fine for competition use or somewhere like here where the garages aren't too far apart . RE did make a wider version of the small chrome panel tank (about 3 UK gallons) for the roadster Bullet, my '57 500 had one, but they seem as common as Indian tank badges now are. I missed one on ebay a few months ago, was watching but forgot to bid - insert expletive here. There are some used ones for the twins around, but they don't have enough clearance underneath for the Bullet rocker boxes.

I might be able to help out with that top yoke, drop me a private message and we can discuss.

A.

[Dirge]

Cor lots of work in that and it shows.  Very smart.  Those domes on your stanchion tops.  Are they authentic RE?  I have them on my beast and I'd assumed they were something made up by our customiser.  (I decided the brass bits were most likely threaded on.  Fingers crossed)

I think my tank came off one of the twins and is a bit too large,  although it's obviously a pukkha RE job but I'm finding it almost impossible to decide.  Wait 'til it gets here once again.   I found an older bike with something that might be the same. (can't work out how to add pics here at the moment) so I'm waiting to see if the spares list mentions a long-distance tank.  I suppose it's even possible it has the rib panelling under a skim of filler but that one I'm certainly not expecting.

Don't you trust the double sider front brake?  It's one of the attractions for me,  I think it's a great design.  I had a connie a few years ago and it stopped that.

[Dirge]

OK let's see if I can add a pic.  If this works this is a bike sold on Ebay Australia a while back. Posted here so you can see the tank.  Looks larger than std and rather like the one on my beast.

PS Love the rangy look of these things.

[Adrian II]

That looks like a '56 Woodsman with the speedo mount sawn off the alloy yoke!

My '57 Bullet had the double-sided front brake and thanks to some rust in the drum when I got the bike it was almost locked solid. Hmm... Cleaned out the all the rust, sanded the linings clean, carefully greased the pivots and refitted everything with a set of new cables and BINGO! Lovely strong, progressive front brake, I didn't even have to re-centralize the pivot pins. Should have kept that bike.

My Not A Fury started as a bare frame and log book, so no double sided front brake involved on that one. It had Indian Bullet wire spoked drum brake wheels front and rear when it first put it on the road, but I was not so keen on the Indian 7" TLS on this, though I have one on another bike which works fine. So disk brake it was. The cast alloy wheels are to wind up the purists (it is a Bitsa, anyway) but I do actually like the look of them. The forks, would you believe, are for a B5 Indian EFI Bullet, because with a little work their plain tops fit the Fury top yoke, but these still have leading axle sliders. The chrome dome fork tops are another hangover from the Model G, so yes, they're genuine RE.

Meanwhile, if you can stand watching old movie opening credits, you might like to check out what this guy is riding. Better view near the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxsiIcR8B2Y

A.

[Adrian II]

Just tried replying to your private message but the forum is playing up at the moment. Will try later.

[Dirge]

That looks like a '56 Woodsman with the speedo mount sawn off the alloy yoke!

M

I think they were claiming '55.  And yes that bike in the film looks familiar.  Never heard of the film.  'Headbangers'  might be an idiomatic translation,  right?

If those top-nut domes are RE I should be alright on the forks;  the only decent way to put the extension in would be male thread one end and female the other.  Good news.

[Adrian II]

Some of the fork top parts will be the same as these, you'll be able to cross-reference once you get the Westerner parts book.

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/362/Telescopic+Front+Fork+-+Continued

There was a Woodsman with the plain top forks at one of our auto-jumbles last year, the photo might explain what goes under the chrome domes a bit, see if you can tie this in with the Model G parts page. I had to improvise with the B5 forks! The Chrome dome is just a push fit.

A.

[Dirge]

Yes that all makes sense.  I wondered how you were supposed to tighten the domes.  Should have worked out that they were just covers.  Thank you for that.  Very helpful.