[viczena]

An ABS is a servo. Try to engage it and you will feel that it provides more braking pressure to the pads than you will ever be able to provide with your brake levers.

Bikes with traction control use the ABS servo for controlling the torque on the back wheel.

[Richard230]

With you on that!
even with the guidance and local experience viczena thinks ABS is a servo and still thinks he's right what a donut!

Well, for a short time during the early 2000's BMW did have a touring model or two with ABS servo brakes. They were uniformly hated by their riders as they braked too abruptly and when the engine was off there was almost no braking force available, which led to more than one owner crashing his bike when it got away from him while pushing it up or down a hill.    That was the end of that experiment. 

[suitcasejefferson]

To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.

[gizzo]

To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.

Come on, just admit that you're set in your ways and you fear change. ABS isn't going to kill you. Neither will fuel injection or electronic ignition or tubeless tyres. I'm with you on rejecting overregulation (I was having a conversation with my sister yesterday about my latest crash. She said "they" ought to do something like put up signs or barriers to make it safer and she couldn't accept my point of view that if people aren't being idiots, they don't crash there so leave it as it is. Let people have some responsibility for their actions. But I digress) but your posts have a "loud pipes save lives" vibe to them. And they're becoming repetitive.

[Antipodean Andrew]

I'm a fan of ABS. I know how to progressively brake and practice this always, but I also make mistakes and it's great to have a backup. As a shift worker I often ride in a less than alert state and having a little technology on hand to help out is a bonus.

[Guaire]

I'm a fan of ABS. I know how to progressively brake and practice this always, but I also make mistakes and it's great to have a backup. As a shift worker I often ride in a less than alert state and having a little technology on hand to help out is a bonus.

I like to see day to day reality come through as the context of motorcycling. The foundation of the old brands was a practical range of models.

I'm lost here. Doesn't a carburetor 'control' the fueling of the motorcycle? And brakes, don't they control the braking? My CGT is an excellent stopper because of disk brakes and light weight. But, particularly on a heavier and taller machine I welcome the ABS. Survival in a world of hostile drivers and uncontrolled circumstances makes the use of ABS a plus for me.

[viczena]

To me, allowing a computer to control your vehicle is unthinkable. Will riding (or driving) still be fun when all you can do is just sit there and let a computer control everything, and probably get you killed? Think Boeing 737 Max. That's what happens when you let a computer take over. The pilots fought that computer all the way to the ground and lost. Everybody died. By trying to solve one problem they are creating a new and far more dangerous problem.

What are you using to writer these posts? Pencil and paper? And how is it delivered? By snail mail?
And how do you know how to repair your bike if sth goes wrong? By travelling to an expert to get a personal explanation?

[axman88]

ABS isn't going to kill you.

I don't have much of an ax to grind in this argument.  I avoid ABS because of the complexity that it adds, specifically because I tend to drive very old, very cheap vehicles, and these almost always require all brake lines and some hoses to be replaced as step one.   The last thing I want is to also be replacing expensive sensors and modulators.

But, it seems that at least some studies do report persistent, statistically significant issues with ABS vs. non ABS equipped vehicles.

For example, trom this study:   https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

    Fatal run-off-road crashes increase with ABS by a statistically significant 9 percent in
cars (confidence bounds: 3% to 15% increase).
    On wet, snowy, or icy roads, where ABS is most likely to activate, the increase in fatal
run-off-road crashes is a statistically significant 34 percent in passenger cars (confidence
bounds: 20% to 50% increase). On these roads, all three types of fatal run-off-road
crashes increase significantly for cars and so do fatal rollovers of LTVs.
    Side impacts with fixed objects generally increase even more with ABS than other types
of run-off-road crashes (except for LTV fatalities). Fatal and nonfatal crashes both
increase significantly for passenger cars.
    The statistical analyses continue to show persistent, significant increases in run-off-road
crashes with ABS, especially on wet roads.

Data from cars is much more readily available, than data from motorcycles.  I would admit that the vehicles are different, but the principles of the systems, and the system failure modes are shared.  This data from cars is relevant to the issue of whether ABS can injure as well as protect.    So, although generally it's agreed that ABS does reduce fatalities over all, it does seem like ABS CAN kill you, and has perhaps already killed people.

Here's a story where an owner claimed that malfunctioning ABS led his daughter to go off the road and hit a tree:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1998/04-24/0035_car_forum__anti-lock_brakes_causi.html

Here's a story where a sheriffs deputy rear ended vehicles repeatedly at stops, allegedly due to a malfunctioning ABS system:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1995/05-05/336080_car_care__antilock_brakes.html

And another law enforcement officer, going off the road and hitting a tree, again allegedly due to malfunctioning ABS, and mention of another officer who actually DID die, perhaps due to malfunctioning ABS brakes:
https://products.kitsapsun.com/archive/1991/10-21/236456_photo_by_general_motors_mysteri.html

Maybe these studies and accounts are old and the technology has been perfected since?  I am not an expert in this, but it seems like there is more than one side to the story, based on the literature.

There's more than one law firm in my country, that is making bank by prosecuting manufacturers when people have accidents that MAY have resulted from ABS system failure.  https://www.levininjuryfirm.com/abs-failures-can-lead-serious-accidents/  What a crummy way to get rich!

[viczena]

Your study is from 2009. When ABS was not finally developed and still in first development state for motorcycles.

1991 Chevy Caprice (30 years ago)
1995 brake malfunction
1992 GMC Safari Brake malfunction


They all declare  malfunctioning ABS. But maybe it was just human error. Or bad brake (car) design.

Have you got some anti-ABS info from the last 10 years?

[axman88]

Your study is from 2009. When ABS was not finally developed and still in first development state for motorcycles.

1991 Chevy Caprice (30 years ago)
1995 brake malfunction
1992 GMC Safari Brake malfunction


They all declare  malfunctioning ABS. But maybe it was just human error. Or bad brake (car) design.

Have you got some anti-ABS info from the last 10 years?

I do not, but it should be simple for YOU to find some pertinent studies and post them to support your position.

[Richard230]

My recollection is that BMW first installed ABS on their K-bike models in 1989? While it worked, it definitely didn't cycle the brakes very fast. Computers have become a lot faster now and the systems work much better. But so far I have never felt the ABS on my three motorcycles that have it kick in. So far it has not been of much of a benefit to me. Just initial extra cost, some additional weight, hose routing complexity and a substantial extra cost for a dealer to replace the brake fluid every couple of years. With my non-ABS models, I can replace the brake fluid in 30 minutes in my garage at a cost of only about $6 for the new fluid. 

[gizzo]

But, it seems that at least some studies do report persistent, statistically significant issues with ABS vs. non ABS equipped vehicles.

For example, trom this study:   https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

    Fatal run-off-road crashes increase with ABS by a statistically significant 9 percent in
cars (confidence bounds: 3% to 15% increase).
    On wet, snowy, or icy roads, where ABS is most likely to activate, the increase in fatal
run-off-road crashes is a statistically significant 34 percent in passenger cars (confidence
bounds: 20% to 50% increase). On these roads, all three types of fatal run-off-road
crashes increase significantly for cars and so do fatal rollovers of LTVs.
    Side impacts with fixed objects generally increase even more with ABS than other types
of run-off-road crashes (except for LTV fatalities). Fatal and nonfatal crashes both
increase significantly for passenger cars.
    The statistical analyses continue to show persistent, significant increases in run-off-road
crashes with ABS, especially on wet roads.

Data from cars is much more readily available, than data from motorcycles.  I would admit that the vehicles are different, but the principles of the systems, and the system failure modes are shared.  This data from cars is relevant to the issue of whether ABS can injure as well as protect.    So, although generally it's agreed that ABS does reduce fatalities over all, it does seem like ABS CAN kill you, and has perhaps already killed people.

That reminds me of a study i skimmed through a few years ago by an Australian university concerning motorbike protective gear. They followed maybe 2000 riders for some period of time and gathered accident data from them. At the end of the study a certain percentage had been in crashes and some had died. One of the findings of that study (iirc) was that back protectors featured quite highly in fatal crashes. The study quite rightly put that down to the fact that someone who wears a back protector is likely to push harder and therefore have a worse crash. Not that back protectors cause injuries in crashes.
Protective gear giving more confidence, same as those ABS incidents.
People maybe rely on it too much as a first line of defence, or a bandaid to excuse lack of talent. ABS is great, but you still ought to be able to operate a vehicle without it.
Its like my hang-gliding instructor said: your reserve parachute isn't a second chance. It's your LAST chance. You're better off developing the skills to not need to use it in the first place. But it's nice to have when you run out of options.

[viczena]

Every motorcycle rider ought to be able to operate a vehicle without ABS. It is called braking.

The ABS comes to play, when the wheels are blocking. This is due to loss of grip on the pavement. Ice, sand, wet, repaired asphalt.... When you have to to have an emergency brake. Full power.

In this situation you have to release the front brake quickly. If not, you will fall within 2 sec. Thats a very small corridor. You may train that. But how? For that purpose you have to get to the point of blocking your front wheel, without crashing your bike in the process. And behind it. That will not be possible without ABS. Without crashing the bike.

If you are willing to pay big cash for motorcycle parts, it is absolutely possible to train emergency braking without ABS.

I do not know anybody who uses ABS to drive reckless or with more risc. And an ABS does not help if you are not talented. It helps when things go sideways.

When parachuting nobody comes into your way, surprises you by abruptly changing lanes or making a turn in front of you. There are much less idiots surrounding you, playing with their smartphones. That is more like driving on an empty interstate all of your life.

And even professional racers on a closed racetrack die from an accident with a blocked front wheel. I witnessed it.

And most risky driving maneuvres have absolutely nothing to to with ABS: https://movies.gaskrank.tv/201608/28224.mp4

[viczena]

I do not, but it should be simple for YOU to find some pertinent studies and post them to support your position.

I dont need studies. I know from personal experience that ABS works. And what happens with a bike without ABS.

But because you like historics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF6THyT0oDM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6hoslMf36I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijJouHoDjQU

In the last video you see a side by side braking of ABS/non ABS. 1:18

There is an excemption. Offroad driving. When you stand downhill with a 800pound motorcycle you dont want the front brake to open when you need your front brake to stay locked. While the rear wheel moves. Or vice versa.

[johno]

I think there is some jealousy here everyone else in the world can remove or disable ABS or have it operational as a choice.
Poor old Europeans HAVE to have it by law............ Ja Vicenza?