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Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: ace.cafe on March 03, 2012, 12:52:31 am

Title: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 03, 2012, 12:52:31 am
Well, one of our Fireballers got an itch to do a UCE, so he's sending us a nearly new G5 coming in for hotrodding in about a month from now.

This was what we needed to begin a UCE project, so this will be the mule for the parts development.
It will probably take till the end of the year to get it all worked out, but at least we're getting a start on it soon.

If there are any wish lists or anything for what people would like to see included, just speak up.

From what I could see in some photos that I scared-up of the internals, it looks like a fairly straightforward job for the top end work.

Comments, questions, or wishes are open for discussion. I'm doing this for you guys, so any help I can get to make you happy would be good to hear.

It's going to be a busy year, because we are doing this UCE project AND doing the 1000cc V-Twin at the same time. Busy hands are happy hands!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 03, 2012, 01:18:30 am
Glad to hear it!

I'm sure there are lots of folks who want to bin the EFI and put a carb on it, but I'd like to see the EFI included and retuned.  EFI is a little less tuning approachable from the vantage point of a backyard mechanic but once we get at least one bike working with a Power Commander or other similar device it gets easier to make maps for common bike configurations: open exhaust, open airbox, both together, etc.  Once you have a few of those out there you can pull it down, load it up, and go!

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 03, 2012, 01:29:31 am
Scott,
Yes, I would prefer to keep the EFI and work out something for the ECU programming.
I don't know if it will be the Power Commander or not. But I'll need to be able to re-tune this bike for the new engine parameters, so we will have some way to do that.
If it becomes impossible or too expensive, then we may look at carbs as a back-up option.
But, the first option is to retain the EFI, and probably modify the throttle body to suit the porting, and go from there.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: aikischmid on March 03, 2012, 01:54:22 am
Awesome - can't wait to see how this turns out!!!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iowarider on March 03, 2012, 05:20:14 am
If it's possible I'd like the mods to be incremental so we do not need to do an all or nothing build. Maybe stages. Example,

Stage 1 could be tuned exhaust, K&N or other free flow filter and a reprogram to optimize. Something fairly low budget, and diy, from a kit.

Other stages could get into packages that you do in your shop, or the parts shipped to us or a willing local Bullet dealer. I know "local" when it comes to Bullet dealers is a relative term, but I think you will get the idea.  I probably have the wrong impression of your fireball program, but it seems, the bike needs to come to your shop for the work. Understandable, but not terribly accessible for some folk.

If I'm off base with how your fireball upgrade works I apologize in advance. I am really just thinking, I anyway, would like the build accessible in logical combinations of parts so I can do it some now some later as I get the money together.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: jartist on March 03, 2012, 06:27:55 am
Wonderful news! Thank you in advance for all of the devotion and hard work! I would love to see a blog of your thoughts and progress in the r&d for this project as much as the protection of any trade secrets would allow.  I am especially curious what you discover in terms of the durability of the bottom end and how you plan to work around the hydraulic lifters.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 03, 2012, 11:38:14 am
If it's possible I'd like the mods to be incremental so we do not need to do an all or nothing build. Maybe stages. Example,

Stage 1 could be tuned exhaust, K&N or other free flow filter and a reprogram to optimize. Something fairly low budget, and diy, from a kit.

Other stages could get into packages that you do in your shop, or the parts shipped to us or a willing local Bullet dealer. I know "local" when it comes to Bullet dealers is a relative term, but I think you will get the idea.  I probably have the wrong impression of your fireball program, but it seems, the bike needs to come to your shop for the work. Understandable, but not terribly accessible for some folk.

If I'm off base with how your fireball upgrade works I apologize in advance. I am really just thinking, I anyway, would like the build accessible in logical combinations of parts so I can do it some now some later as I get the money together.

Incremental build-up is a good idea, and we do that to a certain extent with the Fireball.
I will try to work that in.

Originally, the Fireball was always intended to be a parts kit for users to install, and it still is. But what happened was that quite a few of the people were not comfortable enough with doing their own builds, so we ended up doing them.
In the case of the UCE, where we *think* we might be able to use the existing bottom end, it might be more possible for the everyday owner to do just a top-end build.

We'll have to see about all of that.
A lot of it comes down to money vs power. If don't know what the customer base feels, regarding that. I mean, I could do a moderate power upgrade which doesn't really overstress anything too hard, and wouldn't cost near as much as a big power upgrade.

Here's a fictional example of what 'could' arise.
Let's say we find that the bottom end bearings aren't really up to a Fireball power level, but could withstand something more moderate, but still be faster. And without having to tear apart the bottom end and do a whole crank rebuild with new bearings, the cost could be a whole lot less, and be much easier for the end user to do.
This might be preferable to many.

Regarding the crank, I have heard pretty reliable rumors that the crank is only available as a complete assembly, and no rebuild parts are available from RE. This is not a real problem for us because we can make new crankpins and get main bearings and  rod bearing(and even rods), and rebuild it anyway. But maybe people don't want to pay for all that, ya know? Maybe they'd rather have a few less hp, and leave the bottom end alone. These things need to be considered.

So, there's a lot to think about.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 03, 2012, 12:08:57 pm
Wonderful news! Thank you in advance for all of the devotion and hard work! I would love to see a blog of your thoughts and progress in the r&d for this project as much as the protection of any trade secrets would allow.  I am especially curious what you discover in terms of the durability of the bottom end and how you plan to work around the hydraulic lifters.

We don't really have any "trade secrets". I suppose our biggest trade secret is that we do things the right way, without cutting corners, and we know how to do that. Everything we do is known technology. But we apply this technology correctly for what we are doing, and there's somewhat of an 'art' in that 'science'.

I saw some photos of the crank and flywheels yesterday. They look amazingly like the Iron Barrel flywheels. Some slight differences with the balance relief shapes. I think it's probably the same basic crank assembly, with a roller big-end bearing and a steel rod..
I did find out that there is no outer race on the big end roller. So, that's not so good. But the word on the street is that it's holding up anyway, and that it's actually the crankpin metal that is having the wear issues. But, they are lasting a decent amount of time.This could become a "line of demarcation" for us, because doing a bottom end job adds quite a lot of cost. Probably nearly doubling the cost, compared to if we just did a top-end power mod job.
With the iron barrel Bullet, we HAD to do the bottom end because is was too weak to really take any kind of power increase. But with the UCE, we may have enough room to use the existing bottom end, and still get good power. If we went 'all-out' for power increase, then yes, we'd be required to do the whole bottom end job.
Again, this comes down to where the popular price point might be for a job like this, along with the amount of work involved.

As for the hydraulic lifters, that's not a problem for us.  We know how to get higher revs out of hydraulic lifters. 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on March 03, 2012, 03:50:44 pm
All the above, and :

1. Keep the E Start. It aint as ugly as in the iron barrel. This might require a better sprag and auto-decomp valve.
2. If you can, source a UCE 350 head. It will likely have narrower ports, may even have more metal to work with. Just a thought. 
3. Maybe you can address the ever perplexing 'clatter'.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 03, 2012, 08:40:41 pm
I would prefer a moderate top end kit that leaves the bottom end alone.  Maybe even just an EFI/intake/exhaust upgrade package.  That wouldn't require any major mechancal swaps.  I don't intend to tear up any racetracks, I'd just like a little more power for extended freeway jaunts and when I add a sidecar.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: wokka on March 03, 2012, 08:53:30 pm
All the power in the world isn't going to help if you just bounce off the redline in top gear at 90mph

I'd like (along with the power increase) a solution that lets you use it,
whether that be a way of shoe-horning in a 20 or 21 tooth front, or even a disc conversion with a smaller rear sprocket
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 04, 2012, 12:31:30 am
I would prefer a moderate top end kit that leaves the bottom end alone.  Maybe even just an EFI/intake/exhaust upgrade package.  That wouldn't require any major mechancal swaps.  I don't intend to tear up any racetracks, I'd just like a little more power for extended freeway jaunts and when I add a sidecar.

Scott

Scott,
That would be the easiest, and of course I could come up with something in the way of a filter system, and there are already some free flow silencers out there, I think.
Apparently the existing EFI map is supposed to be sufficient to deal with that via the closed loop system, from what I've heard.
There might not even be much that I really need to get involved with in that kind of thing.

I have some other things in mind, but I really need to see what the ports look like before I put my foot in my mouth.
I found out that the throttle body diameter is supposed to be 30mm I.D.
IF that is correct, and the ports are somewhere similar in size, then i could do quite a bit with that without much enlarging. If the ports are way oversize like the AVL, then that wouldn't be nearly as optimal to deal with. So, it all depends.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 04, 2012, 03:00:43 pm
Ace, that's a very elegant suction and my hat is off to you.  It's always best to make the most of what you have before throwing displacement and extra fuel at it. 

Scooter Bob has reported that the flat top AVL piston has worked in the stock engine.  If the bottom end is up to the task a little compression bump seems within reach if you want it.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 04, 2012, 03:51:30 pm
Hello agian.    Knew it had to come, and glad to see the day is hear!    I watch the forum from the sidelines, but any of you who are long timers here will know that I opened this dialougue with ACE a few years back.    In the meantime due  to a combination of fiscal reality and geographic considerations, , I had to go to the darkside and re-entered riding with a used Honda Sabre Shadow that I was able to pick up locally  at such an attractive price that I couldn't not.  And I use it to commute on the highway 45 minutes each way.   I am loving riding again, and find the Sabre a perfectly acceptable bike, but my heart is still with the Bullet, and I am very interested to see that ACE may be breathing a little more highway capability into it.  I will watch with interest, and , when fortunes change, will look again at buying.  Oddly (and perhaps optiistically) there just aren't a lot of used UCEs  (the logical way to go with a project bike )on the market here in Canada..  I am not sure what that means: Maybe owners are so pleased they won't part with them.  Don't know .   Thanks ACE  : Nigel Ogston  rehere.  .Adr esusednkneha.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 04, 2012, 04:29:48 pm
A little more info comes to light.
The ECU cuts off the fuel pump at 5500rpm.

This means that if we plan to keep costs down, we can keep the rpms under that point, so we don't have to buy a new ECU or Power Commander. Nor do we have to fiddle with the hydraulic lifters.
For a cost sensitive build, that would be the redline.

For higher rpms than that, we'd have to spend hundreds for an ECU change and new maps, or go to a carburetor. And we'd also have to do the lifters and the valve springs, and it would be more stress on the bottom end, and we might probably have to do cams to explot that rpm range.
If the aim is to stay under $1k budget, then I think it's best to work within the 5500rpm existing redline.

And, Welcome Back, Nigel!
 :)
.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GSS on March 05, 2012, 12:25:18 am
Ace,
Excellent! Thank you for taking this on. I shall certainly be following with interest and will look forward to potentially getting in line for an ACE job on my UCE..........where is ScooterBob?........it would be great to get some insight from him as well. This looks like the beginning of a great project!

GSS
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: raderj on March 05, 2012, 12:41:52 am
Ace, have you considered the 535 piston that nfield sells?  Has anyone used it with success?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 05, 2012, 01:13:11 am
Ace, have you considered the 535 piston that nfield sells?  Has anyone used it with success?

Yes, I'm aware of it. I don't know about anyone using it in a UCE,except Scooter Bob, and he's not with CMW anymore. It's actually a piston for an AVL.
At any rate, once we get the G5, and can do some inspection and measurements, we'll know what it can take.
If that piston is fine, then that's an option that can be used. If not, then pistons can be made.

If it can take a 535 overbore, then that's something that I'd like to do. it's worth a couple hp to do that, and it strengthens the torque curve  all thru the range.
It all depends on the thickness of the cylinder bore liner in the barrel.
But if it can't take the 535(87mm) overbore,  maybe it might take an 86mm overbore, and we can make pistons for that, or anything it can take. So, the options are wide open, and we just have to look at the bore liner thickness and see what is safe to do.

I think that whatever is used for a piston, we'll want  to set the deck height for a proper squish band .

For me, the critical factors are doing things that meet the desired results that the users want,  at costs low enough that they will pay, and with installation within their capabilities, so they can do it at home, or their dealer/mechanic can do it.
I have this feeling that a moderate power boost that is not too expensive, and easy to install will be attactive to the UCE owners generally.
And for people who want to go beyond that, we can go as far as they want to go with the modifications. The budget is always the limiting factor with stuff like this.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: HMR on March 05, 2012, 07:50:17 am
Hey Ace,
That's good news...

FYI: http://racedynamics.in/products/powertronic

With all the proposed power upgrades I think handling issues will have to be looked at concurrently. The UCE is a much more compact engine than its predecessors mounted much the same way on a marginally modified frame and that I believe has changed the weight distribution too much to the front... my layman 2 cents...

http://youtu.be/X7ABWmHDZh8
watch at about :20 secs into the video

HMR
Mumbai

A little more info comes to light.
The ECU cuts off the fuel pump at 5500rpm.

This means that if we plan to keep costs down, we can keep the rpms under that point, so we don't have to buy a new ECU or Power Commander. Nor do we have to fiddle with the hydraulic lifters.
For a cost sensitive build, that would be the redline.

For higher rpms than that, we'd have to spend hundreds for an ECU change and new maps, or go to a carburetor. And we'd also have to do the lifters and the valve springs, and it would be more stress on the bottom end, and we might probably have to do cams to explot that rpm range.
If the aim is to stay under $1k budget, then I think it's best to work within the 5500rpm existing redline.

And, Welcome Back, Nigel!
 :)
.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 05, 2012, 12:53:12 pm
Hey Ace,
That's good news...

With all the proposed power upgrades I think handling issues will have to be looked at concurrently. The UCE is a much more compact engine than its predecessors mounted much the same way on a marginally modified frame and that I believe has changed the weight distribution too much to the front... my layman 2 cents...

http://youtu.be/X7ABWmHDZh8
watch at about :20 secs into the video

HMR
Mumbai


Hi HMR,
Yes, the C5 has been known to exhibit some of that squirrelly behavior, but some of the guys seemed to have solved most of that with some shock bolt adjustments(or something like that), from what I remember. Also, I think that the factory has dialed in some extra trail with the new front ends.
Anyway, it doesn't happen with the G5, and I think the C5 issue has been solved.
But, I'll pay attention to that.

And we'll be in touch with those guys at RD in Bangalore.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: HMR on March 05, 2012, 01:31:18 pm
Hi HMR,
Yes, the C5 has been known to exhibit some of that squirrelly behavior, but some of the guys seemed to have solved most of that with some shock bolt adjustments(or something like that), from what I remember. Also, I think that the factory has dialed in some extra trail with the new front ends.
Anyway, it doesn't happen with the G5, and I think the C5 issue has been solved.
But, I'll pay attention to that.

And we'll be in touch with those guys at RD in Bangalore.


Ace

I have 4 REs, all older generation, carburetted. I have ridden the UCE 500 extensively since 2007 but have not been totally convinced about the bike. The newer models are much better with the remapped ECU and front end tweaks but its yet to win me over. Hopefully, the ACE Classic hot rod will help me change my mind :)

Let me know if you need any help from India on this project...

Regards
HMR
Mumbai
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 05, 2012, 02:01:53 pm
Ace

I have 4 REs, all older generation, carburetted. I have ridden the UCE 500 extensively since 2007 but have not been totally convinced about the bike. The newer models are much better with the remapped ECU and front end tweaks but its yet to win me over. Hopefully, the ACE Classic hot rod will help me change my mind :)

Let me know if you need any help from India on this project...

Regards
HMR
Mumbai

HMR,
Yes, I understand the feelings. I have become very attached to the older models with the Fireball, and this is a different bike.
But the fact that the UCE is a different bike gives opportunities to do some different things, and have a great result in its own way.

I'm very much looking forward to making this UCE project something special.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Desi Bike on March 05, 2012, 06:19:40 pm
I'll be following this project for sure. Although a freer flowing exhaust will help, I'm not to keen on an increase in noise over the stock torpedo. It just seems that most exchange mufflers/silencers increase the noise and backfarts far too much for my liking.

Increase in torque and over all power at the same sound output? Can it be done?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 05, 2012, 06:30:19 pm
I'll be following this project for sure. Although a freer flowing exhaust will help, I'm not to keen on an increase in noise over the stock torpedo. It just seems that most exchange mufflers/silencers increase the noise and backfarts far too much for my liking.

Increase in torque and over all power at the same sound output? Can it be done?

Yes, it can be done, but it might not meet styling expectations. It would require a large size silencer chamber. Much larger than most people would find attractive on a motorcycle.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Desi Bike on March 05, 2012, 06:41:26 pm
Hmmm. Bigger than the stock torpedo, might have to pass then. That's about my limit for size. I kinda like the look of the thing but its subjective as to what people like on there own bikes. Has anyone gutted the stock one? Does it flow better and still control the noise?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 05, 2012, 07:46:22 pm
I did find out that there is no outer race on the big end roller. So, that's not so good.

I'm having trouble visualizing this.  Is it just inner race around the crank and then ball bearings riding on the raw aluminum of the case?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 05, 2012, 08:31:39 pm
I'm having trouble visualizing this.  Is it just inner race around the crank and then ball bearings riding on the raw aluminum of the case?

Scott
No, it's a roller bearing in the big-end of the con-rod, with long rollers that some might call needle rollers. But they are a little too thick to be properly termed needle rollers.

There are actually no "races" on this bearing, in proper terms.
The inner race is just the surface of the crankpin, and the outer race is just the eye of the con-rod. The rollers are contained in a cage which holds them in place, and the entire caged-roller assembly is captured on both sides by the thrust washers inside each of the flywheels.
I'm quite certain that this is for reducing manufacturing costs for RE.

In the more rugged versions of this kind of roller bearing(like the Alpha bearing), the surface of the crankpin would be hardened, and there would be a hardened cylindrical race pressed into the eye of the con-rod and honed to precise clearance fit.
This is a much more expensive way of doing this bearing because the crankpin must be specially made with enough surface hardness for contact with the roller, and the outer race must be hard too. Then the outer race must be pressed-in, and machined flush with the rod outer dimensions, and then honed to .0085"-.001" clearance for the race-to-rollers. This amounts to over $300 per unit, just to get a bearing like that done in each bike. We do this as a regular thing, so I'm very familiar with the procedure.

The main bearings are fitted into the crankcase, which are bigger roller bearings. And they have outer races that press into the cases with an interference fit, and inner races that press onto the crankshaft end-stubs with an interference fit.
That's perfectly fine, and not what we are talking about with the UCE big-end.
The issue under discussion without the race is the con-rod big-end roller bearing.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 05, 2012, 08:55:35 pm
Crystal clear, thank you.

Aside from a full new crank and con rod are there any other possibilities to beef this up?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on March 05, 2012, 11:30:59 pm
IMO, it is indeed too bad that the lower connecting rod design didn't utilize a roller bearing that had a hardened outer sleeve which could have been pressed into place.
That would have provided a very hard (HRC 63-65) smooth, durable surface for the rollers to ride on and when all is said and done would have cost less than the existing design.

Speaking of this roller bearing design with the rollers running directly in the connecting rods bore it would be a good idea to check the surface hardness there.
I assume they case hardened the surface by carburizing or nitriding? 
If they left the surface at a hardness below HRC 60 that could be a weak link in the design.

As a side note to Ace, I think you forgot a zero?  I think the clearance should have been .00085-.0010?

Getting to Scotty's thought, because the CPU limits the engine speed to 5500 rpm, the lower bearings will probably not need beefing up.
While this is fine for the "low cost" version that will probably increase the torque a bit it will be an issue if much of an increase in horsepower is desired.

Increasing horse power usually requires increasing the max speed of the engine.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 06, 2012, 12:40:00 am
IMO, it is indeed too bad that the lower connecting rod design didn't utilize a roller bearing that had a hardened outer sleeve which could have been pressed into place.
That would have provided a very hard (HRC 63-65) smooth, durable surface for the rollers to ride on and when all is said and done would have cost less than the existing design.

Speaking of this roller bearing design with the rollers running directly in the connecting rods bore it would be a good idea to check the surface hardness there.
I assume they case hardened the surface by carburizing or nitriding?  
If they left the surface at a hardness below HRC 60 that could be a weak link in the design.

As a side note to Ace, I think you forgot a zero?  I think the clearance should have been .00085-.0010?

Getting to Scotty's thought, because the CPU limits the engine speed to 5500 rpm, the lower bearings will probably not need beefing up.
While this is fine for the "low cost" version that will probably increase the torque a bit it will be an issue if much of an increase in horsepower is desired.

Increasing horse power usually requires increasing the max speed of the engine.



Yes, thank you, I forgot a zero. .00085"-.001" clearance, race-to-roller.

I don't know if they did anything for the hardness of the con-rod eye. As far as anecdotal reports are concerned, I have heard that it is the crankpin that is softer and wearing out. Not the rod. But this is based on very small sampling of verbal reports from India, so I'm not too sure how pervasive this is.

I agree about the low cost version staying under  5500 rpm. It makes sense from a lot of angles.
As far as anything hotter than that goes, if I'm having to tear down the bottom end anyway, I'm putting an Alpha bearing in there, or something with a fully-raced set-up with proper hardness levels.
And similar main bearings that I use in the Fireball.
Then, I can not worry about that stuff, and put the pedal to the metal with the rest of the mods, if desired.

To tell you my guess, I think that the low cost option will be the popular option.
I have found with the Fireball that people don't want to be tearing down their engines, and they like simpler mods. If we didn't have to do the Iron Barrel bottom-end jobs, we would have a lot more Fireballs on the road right now. And with the UCE bottom end being better than the Iron Barrel, we can exploit that into an easy-to-install mod package which doesn't cost as much. The more of the factory stuff we can use, the less costly the mods will be.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: bittercrick on March 06, 2012, 01:12:06 pm
Utube video showing the wobble wheeled C5 yupers that's exactly what mines done since day one and there is no fixing it at least not on mine as I've always said a design flaw. >:(
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 06, 2012, 01:27:29 pm
Well, we have a G5 coming to us, and so we won't be able to look at any of those C5 chassis handling issues.

I'm sure we'll have our hands full with the engine mods.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on March 06, 2012, 01:41:19 pm
Utube video showing the wobble wheeled C5 yupers that's exactly what mines done since day one and there is no fixing it at least not on mine as I've always said a design flaw. >:(

Well my B5 (old iron bullet frame)  is rock stable at all speeds.

However it definitely IS skitty under brakes on loose stuff. Any loose gravel on a corner under brakes and the front lets go very suddenly. Tipped me off once and tried on several other occasions.Maybe its the stock Avon.  My old xj900 never had the same issue.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: singhg5 on March 06, 2012, 04:25:38 pm
@ACE.CAFE:

This is great that you are getting a G5 for an ACE upgrade to make it more street 'smart' bike. I am sure whatever you decide to do, it will become a better bike.

Since UCE / EFI are the present and future of RE, your efforts will be well appreciated.  Look forward to see your progress in this project.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 06, 2012, 06:59:44 pm
Ace, if i might request some things non-engine related that I think are the same for all UCE bikes:
1) A set of footpegs and mounts that lets the footpegs fold up if they scrape in a corner
2) A brake pedal that sits closer in to the bike/frame.  The currrent one sits out around the middle of the footpeg.

I'll take a look at the parts books for C5 and G5 tonight but I think they share these parts.

Thanks,
Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on March 06, 2012, 07:58:32 pm
Quote
However it definitely IS skitty under brakes on loose stuff. Any loose gravel on a corner under brakes and the front lets go very suddenly. Tipped me off once and tried on several other occasions.Maybe its the stock Avon. 

There ain't no maybe to the stock Avon having the power to put you on your butt. My Avon put my bike off a cliff! Fortunately some trees caught it before any major damage was done. As soon as I got the bike going again the Avons hit the trash.  They had kinda washed out on me before, but I guess I didnt' heed the warning enough and gotten rid of them sooner. I'm running K-70s now and feel oh, so much more secure.
The stock Avon SMs suck. S&M is more like it!
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 06, 2012, 08:13:20 pm
Avon calls them "Speed Masters".
We call them "Skid Masters"/
 :D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GSS on March 07, 2012, 01:58:20 am
Utube video showing the wobble wheeled C5 yupers that's exactly what mines done since day one and there is no fixing it at least not on mine as I've always said a design flaw. >:(
Yup. Same head wobble due to crappy setup by my former dealer, stiff skinny Avons and a bunch of other stuff including frame design. This is all easily curable as many of us can attest.  Check some of our threads on C5 stability and you will find a comprehensive summary.

Ace, apologies for diverting from your thread.........since my last post on this subject life on the C5 has been tranquil and this winter I went one step further and put in 19x3.5 front and 18x4.0 rear Dunlop K70s and it is rock stable at high speeds.

GSS
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 07, 2012, 02:01:29 am
It's all part of the process, and there will be need to have everything sorted before it's all said and done.

I"m motivated to do this now, so once we get the G5 we can begin.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: wokka on March 07, 2012, 06:11:38 pm
out of interest, if you had a UCE in a country with no emissions standards or noise level restrictions, would you do things any different?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: TCP on March 07, 2012, 06:20:01 pm
In Florida, emissions standards were eliminated about 15 years ago.

No more vehicle inspections.  Hooray.

Noise levels are not generally inforced unless the db level is horrifically offensive.

Caseman
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: boggy on March 07, 2012, 06:37:22 pm
OH sure Ace... You do up the Iron barrels and then skip RIGHT over us poor AVL middle-children for the fancy new UCEs.  What about us, huh?   ;)

If I could only cruise a wee bit faster on my Electra.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: The Garbone on March 07, 2012, 07:49:09 pm
AVL= Mustang2...   Just a thought...
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on March 07, 2012, 07:52:58 pm
Quote
Utube video showing the wobble wheeled C5 yupers that's exactly what mines done since day one and there is no fixing it at least not on mine as I've always said a design flaw

Hey, Bittercreek, have you seen Kevin's announcement about the C5 Special that has the 19" wheel and straight forks? Maybe you could work a deal!
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 07, 2012, 08:17:34 pm
OH sure Ace... You do up the Iron barrels and then skip RIGHT over us poor AVL middle-children for the fancy new UCEs.  What about us, huh?   ;)

If I could only cruise a wee bit faster on my Electra.
Boggy,
 It's already been done, 33.4 bhp at the rear wheel, 103 mph top speed, more 'grunt' everywhere, it was about three years ago when I modified one as the basis of the Hitchcocks kit. I gave full details on this site of how I did it, but on looking through my old posts recently, I found the thread with all the details seems to have gone. The 'prototype' differed in several ways to the eventual kit and it used mainly modified standard parts, remaining at 500 cc.
 B.W.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: boggy on March 07, 2012, 08:22:43 pm
Hmm - About the time I came aboard here. Must have missed it, BW.  I've seen some of the performance upgrades, like the 535 piston in the catalog, but haven't heard of anyone doing anything.

33bhp sounds GREAT!  Please let me know if you find those notes.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: singhg5 on March 08, 2012, 03:19:18 am
@Ace.Cafe:

Are you going to do a dyno test on the G5 before and after your upgrade to see the change in its power, torque and possibly top speed ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Maturin on March 08, 2012, 06:49:02 pm
The Cafe with the Seeley-ish frame is announced for late 2012 in the US. As it'll share the power plant with the Bullets there will be a factory tuning of some kind. So wouldn't it be smarter to wait some time to see if the improvements can be retrofit? Best regards
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2012, 07:09:14 pm
The Cafe with the Seeley-ish frame is announced for late 2012 in the US. As it'll share the power plant with the Bullets there will be a factory tuning of some kind. So wouldn't it be smarter to wait some time to see if the improvements can be retrofit? Best regards

I don't know if there will be any special factory tuning on that bike.
I'm not counting on it.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 08, 2012, 07:25:43 pm
+1.  My suspicion is they have plans tp put the new twin they're developing into this bike at a later date but they don't have it ready yet, so it will just get a stock UCE 500 engine for now.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2012, 07:33:21 pm
@Ace.Cafe:

Are you going to do a dyno test on the G5 before and after your upgrade to see the change in its power, torque and possibly top speed ?

Hi Singh,
Yes, we plan to do that.
And we will also flow test the head before doing anything, so we have benchmarks.
We will do all the necessary steps.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Chiefharlock on March 08, 2012, 10:30:03 pm
Hey ACE,

Why the V-Twin as opposed to a parallel twin?

Jason
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2012, 10:35:25 pm
Hey ACE,

Why the V-Twin as opposed to a parallel twin?

Jason

A couple of reasons.
First, Aniket wanted a V-Twin, and he's the one making the crankcase. And people see to generally like V-Twins. Especially in the US.

Second, the V-Twin allows using the existing top ends to be used as a pair, so that no special barrels and heads for a siamese parallel twin need to be designed and manufactured.
Makes use of existing parts for much of the conversion.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 09, 2012, 01:12:22 am
For what it's worth, my money [and I could be wrong] would be on a parallell twin. Reason being, this [should] be a 'clean sheet' design and the big twins of yestert
year were parallell jobs. If they take this route, I would like to see a 180 degree 800 cc or so c traditional twin. The 'Iron Barrel' has gone, as far as the factory is concearned, despite them being a major part of my bread and butter. Time to move on, for what comes off the line, but the 'Classic' jobs will still provide lots of scope for the home tuner and stock machine riders alike.
  Harley and Ducati mass produce v twins for those who want them, already [among others], let's see what comes out of the factory doors next.
 B.W.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 09, 2012, 01:25:08 am
For what it's worth, my money [and I could be wrong] would be on a parallell twin. Reason being, this [should] be a 'clean sheet' design and the big twins of yestert
year were parallell jobs. If they take this route, I would like to see a 180 degree 800 cc or so c traditional twin. The 'Iron Barrel' has gone, as far as the factory is concearned, despite them being a major part of my bread and butter. Time to move on, for what comes off the line, but the 'Classic' jobs will still provide lots of scope for the home tuner and stock machine riders alike.
  Harley and Ducati mass produce v twins for those who want them, already [among others], let's see what comes out of the factory doors next.
 B.W.

Hi BW,
I expect the RE factory to make theirs a parallel twin. It would fit in their frame, and they have the production ability to cast and manufacture those parts.
I like a parallel twin just fine myself, too

For us here, we are using the Bullet top ends on the V-Twin crankcases that Aniket is making, because that is more within our ability to do. Less castings to make.
Here's a pic of the crankcase castings and timing covers, prior to finish machining
(From the Kneeslider article).
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1864581966/name/bothcastings-530x400.jpg)


This is a 59-degree V-Twin, with a common-crankpin, enlarged main bearing size, wet sump with cast-in windage tray, both oil pumps providing oil feed, solid lifters with 2 sets of Bullet cams, UCE filter element, pushrods adjusted under the rocker covers.
Has the shifter tunnel to allow left-shifting 5 speed if desired, or right-shifting 4-speed or 5-speed.
These will be the crankcases used for the ACE V-Twin 1070cc "Double Fireball".

.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 09, 2012, 01:53:12 pm
That does look a neat set of cases, Ace. One thing occurs to me, looking at the blanks, has anyone considered that if they were machined differently [as required] that they could be a platform for doubling up other types of top ends, ie, a basic bottom end with crank could be offered with more than one pattern of stud holes, small end bush size, etc to accept perhaps a pair of BSA top ends, for example?
 Another top end that caught my eye as a 'maybe' for grafting onto a Bullet engine is the 850 [425] Moto Guzzi.
 Anniket might sell many more sets of cases, if they could be adapted for certain non R.E. top ens as well. Just a thought.
 B.W.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 09, 2012, 02:04:08 pm
That does look a neat set of cases, Ace. One thing occurs to me, looking at the blanks, has anyone considered that if they were machined differently [as required] that they could be a platform for doubling up other types of top ends, ie, a basic bottom end with crank could be offered with more than one pattern of stud holes, small end bush size, etc to accept perhaps a pair of BSA top ends, for example?
 Another top end that caught my eye as a 'maybe' for grafting onto a Bullet engine is the 850 [425] Moto Guzzi.
 Anniket might sell many more sets of cases, if they could be adapted for certain non R.E. top ens as well. Just a thought.
 B.W.

Good eye, BW!
There is some extra "meat" around the area that mates with the jugs, so that different stud patterns and sizes can be accommodated, within certain limits.

It is conceivable that other top ends might be used on it. There are some hopes for such a thing.

Right now, these are the only two sets of cases which exist. But others will be made as we go along.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 15, 2012, 12:03:08 am
Just a couple of thoughts:   I think the factory already announced that their twin was going to be parallel like a Meteor no?  Anikets project is his own thing for those who want a v twin .  (And their are V twins in Enfield history so why not)

Regarding the Cafe Racer to be released, I believe they are introducing it with a parallel cradle type steel frame as opposed to the single downtube of the Bullet.  Which led me to wonder.:  With no enclosing frame to surround it, how does the UCE engine , as a stressed member, contribute to lateral / axial flexing frame stability?  And would pumping more power through it, either with a "Juiced UCE" (sorry ACE , I had to get it in somewhere) or Anikets v twin lead to any concerns with the frames torsional stability?    I picture some sort of stiffening braces  going from the engine case sides up to the sides of the steering headstock (A frame)  as a stiffener to complete a "box"  around the engine right from the headstock to the rear swing arm attachment  and thus capitalize on the stressed member engines rigidity in two planes. .  From what I can see now, there are two points of attachement at the rear but only one at the from (single down tube) which must lead to the potential for some  twisting.    Frame technology seems to be a large part of design in performance machines.     Am I totally off base here?  (I often am)  Nigel 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on March 15, 2012, 12:06:06 am
Just a couple of thoughts:   I think the factory already announced that their twin was going to be parallel like a Meteor no?  Anikets project is his own thing for those who want a v twin .  (And their are V twins in Enfield history so why not)

Regarding the Cafe Racer to be released, I believe they are introducing it with a parallel cradle type steel frame as opposed to the single downtube of the Bullet.  Which led me to wonder.:  With no enclosing frame to surround it, how does the UCE engine , as a stressed member, contribute to lateral / axial flexing frame stability?  And would pumping more power through it, either with a "Juiced UCE" (sorry ACE , I had to get it in somewhere) or Anikets v twin lead to any concerns with the frames torsional stability?    I picture some sort of stiffening braces  going from the engine case sides up to the sides of the steering headstock (A frame)  as a stiffener to complete a "box"  around the engine right from the headstock to the rear swing arm attachment  and thus capitalize on the stressed member engines rigidity in two planes. .  From what I can see now, there are two points of attachement at the rear but only one at the from (single down tube) which must lead to the potential for some  twisting.    Frame technology seems to be a large part of design in performance machines.     Am I totally off base here?  (I often am)  Nigel  

The Carberrys use the standard Bullet frame ...

http://www.carberryenfield.com.au/OLDBIKE.pdf
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 15, 2012, 01:49:28 am
Ace, love the v twin!  Though I'm partial to the look of a parallel I really respect the idea of just building the bottom end and using existing stock parts for the top.  Will this fit in a standard UCE frame?

I hope the factory cafe gets a parallel twin at some point.

The single down tube, engine as stressed member frame with all the disparate parts bolted together is a noodle.  How could it not flex, even under just stock power?   That said, you can probably put lots of power through it without breaking it, it just may not handle as well as you'd like.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 15, 2012, 02:08:10 am
The Carberrys use the standard Bullet frame ...

http://www.carberryenfield.com.au/OLDBIKE.pdf


Actually,Glenn, if you look at the picture of the Carberry you posted, it ihas a partial dual downtube frame more or less like I was suggesting bolted to the front of the engine casing and goint up to headstock..   I hadn't noticed this before, though I have seen pics of the Carberry, because, I guess I wasn't thinking about the frame but focussed on the pretty  v twin.   So I think they may have anticipated a similar problem.  Plus, they may have needed the space in front (where the front cylinder head has to go) an had to cut out the single (and much heftier I might add) downtube of the stock bullet replacing it with the spindly black bits that look like barbecue legs.  No points for the asthetics of their partial double cradle though.   
With the beefed up single UCE space and clearance would not be issues, but surely frame stability could be increased by something like an alumiinum plate cut out of course for air flow in a graceful A form going from roughly the same point on the bottom of the engine casing as pictured on the Carberry up to the headstock, attached there , perphaps by a  spit circumferential clamp and bolt arrangement to the uppermost part (or highest accesable part) of the fat single downtube.  Could even double as a skid plate by sweeping under the engine and attaching to its sides somewhere below like a bash plate.  Not having one to look at, I can't quite see where the attachment points would best be, but the general idea would be to create a triangle in the cross sectional plane to give torsional stability and avoid the :"noodle" effect Scott referred to.  Might be just as important in terms of the goal of "tractability" as good engine mods.  Just saying is all.  Nigel 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on March 15, 2012, 04:50:13 am
Mine handles very nicely for a 1955 designed frame.

MUCH better than my old Honda CX500 did.  ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 15, 2012, 02:37:59 pm
Thats very interesting Arizona .   I never looked at those (Honda CX ) before, but it looks like a single downtube frame as well with the engine bolted on as a stressed member-ie same as Bullet.  I wonder why the big difference-----shaft effects maybe?

Boy have I got thebike  bug bad.  And I still seem to be suffering the with RE strain of it.   Hope spring breaks through soon so I can ride it out.   Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 15, 2012, 03:40:34 pm
Ace, love the v twin!  Though I'm partial to the look of a parallel I really respect the idea of just building the bottom end and using existing stock parts for the top.  Will this fit in a standard UCE frame?

I hope the factory cafe gets a parallel twin at some point.

The single down tube, engine as stressed member frame with all the disparate parts bolted together is a noodle.  How could it not flex, even under just stock power?   That said, you can probably put lots of power through it without breaking it, it just may not handle as well as you'd like.

Scott

Scott,
It was designed to fit in the Iron Barrel frame, with a modified(stretched) top tube under the tank.
The UCE frame might complicate things further,because the V-Twin is designed to operate with the pre-unit gearbox, and its primary chaincase
It might go in there, but I don't know what it would take to do it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 15, 2012, 03:57:16 pm
Regarding the single-downtube open-cradle frame design, it's actually pretty good.
There are a lot of good handling bikes which use that.

Here's one. Ducati 450 Desmo Sport.
Notice a similarity?
I heard these bikes handled pretty good!
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4982587749237441&id=25e78adddee5b41a7be8994120b6b6df&index=newexp&url=http%3a%2f%2fannuncimotoducatiusate.myblog.it%2fmedia%2f01%2f00%2f696902577.jpg)


I wouldn't be worrying about it.
I can tell you from experience that it handles rock solid to well over 100mph, and will run right alongside a Manx with a featherbed frame. At least, the Iron Barrel models will. Like a Fireball.

BTW, an Ace Fireball 535 will whip that Ducati 450 Desmo all day long.
Who says Bullets are slow?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 15, 2012, 04:36:09 pm
I stand humbly corrected.  Noodle comment retracted ;)  Ducati is still using the engine as a stressed member of the frame.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 15, 2012, 05:14:35 pm
OK   : frames good to 100..  Interestingly that Honda CX 500 mentioned    gained noteriety by geting on a list of "10 worst handling motorcycles"  and top heaviness and shaft torque effects were cited .  There is also a "10 best handling " list which includes at least one single down tube bike, the Honda 750 4 :  i think all the Brit entires (several ) are dual tube though is fared and I can't tell.
By the way anyone seen the announcement of the new" C5 special" with different front forks and 19 inch wheel for "more cruiser like handling "  (5 days ago)  .
Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 15, 2012, 05:28:22 pm
Where was that to be released?  India, Europe, US, or all?

I'd be ineterested in just getting the fork lowers if they can be mounted to the existing bike.  My bike it fine all the way up to terminal velocity but RE parts are usually inexpensive and I'd like to compare/contrast.  It would only take a few hours to swap them over.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on March 15, 2012, 05:42:38 pm
There is a post about it at the top of this forum under "Announcements"
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 15, 2012, 05:43:01 pm
It should give more trail with those fork sliders, and also more gyroscopic stability with the bigger 19" front wheel. And the 19" front wheel will probably be a little taller in the front end too, which will increase the trail even further.
I think this is basically an admission of a frame geometry problem, and this is the band-aid.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 15, 2012, 05:48:23 pm
It should give more trail with those fork sliders, and also more gyroscopic stability with the bigger 19" front wheel. And the 19" front wheel will probably be a little taller in the front end too, which will increase the trail even further.
I think this is basically an admission of a frame geometry problem, and this is the band-aid.

BTW, my old Ducati 750 bevel twins had a 19" front wheel and and 18" rear wheel, and those bikes were famous for great handling and stability.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on March 15, 2012, 05:49:33 pm
The larger front wheel  will also add a bit to the trail. The article I saw in the Factory website also mentioned moving the fork legs back closer to the steering head for even more trail.
Should have enough with all that!
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 15, 2012, 08:27:24 pm
I am curious then as to which would be better for stability and handling;  The C 5 special with the 18 inch rear and 19 inch front and "new"  forks, or the G 5  with both front and rear 19 inch and its "old" forks and greater rake.  Or the B5 (based on 350 frame) which I suspect  (but don't know) has less trail and rake than the G5, but also, I believe has 19 front and rear.  Thoughts?  I have always been drawn to the look of the G5, and my guess is that low speed manouverability aside, it is the best road speed set up.   Front wheel on C 5 always did look too small to me from an asthetic standpoint. . 
In other words is it the 19 inch front that confers stability, or the slope between the 19 inch front and 18 inch back combined with rake and trail changes thus established.     (Getting a bit off topic of the original thread here, but hey, it is a G5 that is the test bike coming in anyway ) Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 15, 2012, 08:30:59 pm
Yep its a G5 from what I hear, but its going to end up as an F5  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 15, 2012, 08:39:39 pm
Nigel,

Trail is usually the most important factor.  Whichever has the most trail is probably the most stable.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on March 15, 2012, 10:09:28 pm
Speaking of the new front fork, another difference besides moving the axle is the tube diameter was changed.
I noticed that Keven didn't mention this but I would be very surprised if the Indian factory was going to make a new fork for the USA that was different from the one they have designed for the new Indian 500 Classic.

According to the Indian Royal Enfield website the new fork with the centered axle has 41mm (1.614") tubes instead of the current forks 35mm (1.378") tubes.

This increase should increase the stiffness of the fork tubes by 65% assuming the wall thickness remains the same.

As I don't have access to one of the new bikes I don't know if the widened the distance between the forks to maintain the same clearance with the front wheel and tire but if they did, a new triple clamp wound have to be part of the package.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 15, 2012, 10:17:10 pm
Well then, no mounting those on the existing C5 uppers.  You;d need a new nacelle too probably to screw them into and lower triple.  It's a whole new front end.  I always thought the forks were pretty spindley, but it is a small bike and my last bike was a Ducati with inverted forks.  Different world.

Thanks Arizoni :)

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 16, 2012, 12:23:28 am
Update!

The G5 has been purchased, and Chumma is going to pick it up as soon as he can. Probably by the end of the month.

I have been getting some help from my friends on the street in India, and have gotten some figures on the cam lift and timing, and some more info on the crank and the innards.
This allowed me to do some preliminary concept work on some ideas that I have for the power improvements on the bike.
There isn't much published info about this engine, as far as the internals are concerned.I had to pull some teeth to find out some pretty basic info. It's almost as if they don't want people to know about it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 12:44:30 am
In our earlier round of discussions many months ago, ACE, I raised the question (which I am tossing in to the ring again now) as to whether , once a production head has been hand  ported, it could be translated into a CNC template to simplify future head work:   Even if a rough gouge out could be done by robot it seems to me there may be economies possible by doing that and fine tuning by hand to smooth out surfaces and perhaps even some  bench test refining of the partially CNC carved heads.    I am not sure who owns the guinea pig bike and whether they see their's as a labour of love for the commuity.   Maybe , they could receive a small "royalty" for subsequent buyers that benefit from their groundbreaking costs.   Possibly even could be a head port option A and B   :  Hand ported vs Machine copy without further refinement offered as two different levels of cost.  If you remember, we discussed the possibility of a head exchange program where you send in your stock head and receive in return a ported and revalved head.  If the project flies, you would need an inventory of at least one head to get it rolling. 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 16, 2012, 01:33:17 am
In our earlier round of discussions many months ago, ACE, I raised the question (which I am tossing in to the ring again now) as to whether , once a production head has been hand  ported, it could be translated into a CNC template to simplify future head work:   Even if a rough gouge out could be done by robot it seems to me there may be economies possible by doing that and fine tuning by hand to smooth out surfaces and perhaps even some  bench test refining of the partially CNC carved heads.    I am not sure who owns the guinea pig bike and whether they see their's as a labour of love for the commuity.   Maybe , they could receive a small "royalty" for subsequent buyers that benefit from their groundbreaking costs.   Possibly even could be a head port option A and B   :  Hand ported vs Machine copy without further refinement offered as two different levels of cost.  If you remember, we discussed the possibility of a head exchange program where you send in your stock head and receive in return a ported and revalved head.  If the project flies, you would need an inventory of at least one head to get it rolling. 

Hi Nigel.
We have all the facilities to do all that. There are CNC machines at our command. And casting facilities.
It's a bit premature to discuss production at this point. If there is ever enough demand to warrant some sort of mass production by CNC, then we can cross that bridge when we come to it. CNC is for mass production, not one at a time.

We need to start  off walking, and then if things seem optimistic enough, we can learn to run.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 04:26:31 pm
Here is a link on the new "C 5 special" as it is called here in NA. (or will be)   . The prose of the article is very dense , and the author doesnt use the words "c 5 special" anywhere, but it is quite clear that he is talking about the same thing.  The gist of it seems to be that trail on the new fork/wheel aassembly is  up from 72.49mm to 101.54 (I think the G5 trail is 75mm)  and the front wheel is 19, back 18/120 up from 110. 
72 mm is exceptionally short trail. 

Here is the link
http://www.royalenfield.com/motorcycles/motor-cycle-media-reviews-details.aspx?mid=141&model=25

http://www.royalenfield.com/motorcycles/motor-cycle-media-reviews-details.aspx?mid=141&model=25

Dont know why that doesn't come up "blue"   as an active link-  I just copied and pasted

Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 16, 2012, 05:03:26 pm
72 is short, but 75 doesn't sound like much more, yet all G5s I know of are rock solid.  There's got to be more to it on the C5.   Though if they're making the special it seems RE hasn't figured out exactly what the issue is.  If they had I would have expected a more minor tweak to the existing bike.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 05:19:33 pm
Scot  :Sorry if this shows up twice: A post I just did seems to have vanished in cyperspace.
 This idea may be really stupid, but , if it were possible to spin the existing fork lowers on C5 to point the offsets backward instead of forward (KIDS DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME WITHOUT THE ADVICE OF A QUALIFIED MECHANIC AND THIS AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL RESPONIBILITY FOR LOSS OR DAMMAGES RESULTING FROM ATTEMPTING THIS )   then that would increase the trail from 72 to 132  or 6.378 inches (since neutralizing the offset added 30 mm trail, reversing it should add 60 mm) which, if lack of trail were the problem, oughta fix the wobble.  I have no idea if it is possible or safe to do this.  Just thinking out loud and I mention it only because you were contemplating the feesibility of changing out your fork lowers for the new ones but concluded they were different diameter so couldn't..
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on March 16, 2012, 05:19:52 pm
72 is short, but 75 doesn't sound like much more, yet all G5s I know of are rock solid.  There's got to be more to it on the C5.   Though if they're making the special it seems RE hasn't figured out exactly what the issue is.  If they had I would have expected a more minor tweak to the existing bike.

Scott

I thought the new model introduced in India had a longer swingarm as well. Is that not the case for the US version.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 05:22:23 pm
Prabably had to increase the length of the swingarm to get back the wheelbase that would be lost by neutralizing the forward axle offset.  Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on March 16, 2012, 05:23:05 pm
Scot  :Sorry if this shows up twice: A post I just did seems to have vanished in cyperspace.
 This idea may be really stupid, but , if it were possible to spin the existing fork lowers on C5 to point the offsets backward instead of forward (KIDS DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME WITHOUT THE ADVICE OF A QUALIFIED MECHANIC AND THIS AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL RESPONIBILITY FOR LOSS OR DAMMAGES RESULTING FROM ATTEMPTING THIS )   then that would increase the trail from 72 to 132  or 6.378 inches (since neutralizing the offset added 30 mm trail, reversing it should add 60 mm) which, if lack of trail were the problem, oughta fix the wobble.  I have no idea if it is possible or safe to do this.  Just thinking out loud and I mention it only because you were contemplating the feesibility of changing out your fork lowers for the new ones but concluded they were different diameter so couldn't..


I would think that unless the steering neck angle is changed, any offset change would not amount to anything. It is that angle that decides the rake, or so me thinks.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 16, 2012, 05:23:10 pm
Nigel, I thought the same thing ;)  I think it's possible but you'd have to swap left and right fork lowers so the brake and mounting hardware would still line up.  Easy enough.  You might also need to make up some new fender mounts since those would be out of alignment.  Oh, and your bike would look TOTALLY dorky.  Good for an experiment, terrible for aesthetics.  And if you don't own a C5 because it's beautiful there's something wrong with you ;)

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 16, 2012, 05:24:23 pm

I would think that unless the steering neck angle is changed, any offset change would not amount to anything. It is that angle that decides the rake, or so me thinks.

Rake would be the same, trail would increase as noted.  You might be putting the axlequite near the steering tube axis and that could make things a little weird, not sure.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 05:29:28 pm
Which makes me wonder why the forks on this and G5 were done with forward offset in the first place.   The only conclusion I can draw is that on a short frame bike, its a quick and dirty way to pick up a little wheelbase.   So it must be the slightly greater rake on the G5 that saves it from the trail gobbling forward offset.     I still like G5s better, but I think the new C5 special might be moving up.     Also, if you think about it, the whole weight distribution of the bike/rider would be changed, since your derriere is in the same place byt the axles have both moved one inche or so backward under you in the new special 9longer swingarm and dropp the offest.  )  This would shift weight forward. I think.  Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 05:31:28 pm
"Nigel, I thought the same thing  ".........................GREAT(ly disturbed) MINDS THINK ALIKE!       Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 16, 2012, 06:21:24 pm
Trail is king but all those things come into play.  Still, why are some C5s like mine rock steady up to terminal velocity when others start to skitter around 55?  I find it hard to believe there's enough variation in the hand assembly to account for this.

Maybe the C5 is great in IDM market where riders don't go much above 50mph and appreciate the light handling.  Still, fix it once and for all, not with some special model.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: TWinOKC on March 16, 2012, 07:14:43 pm
When I first got my C5 it seemed a little shaky around 55 MPH.  Lowering the tire pressure to the amount specified in the owners manual made a big difference.  
There are some road conditions (grooves in the road) where mine feels unstable but usually my bike is good up to 80 MPH indicated. That's as fast as I need to run anyway.

I credit the new found stability to my getting used to the bike and running the correct tire pressure.  It would not be worth the money (to me) to make rim size changes or different fork tubes.

Just my 2cents

 ;)  Terry
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Desi Bike on March 16, 2012, 08:02:09 pm
Flipping the tubes would also raise the front of the bike a bit as the angle of the mount would be on the back side of where it is now. Further changing the geometry. My fear would be that one would end up with "wobbly shopping cart wheel syndrome" in addtion to what Scotty pointed out, looking just goofy. (the bike that is, not Scotty)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 08:08:45 pm
An intersting observation about human nature:  (not exempting myself)

  The bike we all love and have goals to make more performance oriented and highway speed capable both in drivetrain (Fireball) and chassis issues (train, rake trail, set backs wheel size etc etc) owes it's very existence to the fact that it was observed by the Indian army to be a good  (and affordable ) trials bike:    The characteristics that made it excel in this application were, light weight, sturdy construction, high ground clearance , ability to stand on the pegs while riding, slow speed manouverability (meaning low trail, rake, short wheelbase) immense available low speed torque and high crankshaft mass flywheel effect (so you don't stall in first gear while gacefully pirrhoueting out of a ditch on the back wheel without putting your feet down) and good low speed hill climb capacity.    
And now we want 100 mph, wobbleless highway cruising , brisk cruiser beating acceleration, good tracking in long curves, high speed flickability  etc.   Sort of like our wives expectations of us:   "Your perfect :   Now change!"  (I am the worst offender in the perpetual quest for perfection)   Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 08:11:24 pm
OK Desi:   I  have to bite:   What does the script in your tag line mean?   Looks Arabic?
Persian?  Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Desi Bike on March 16, 2012, 08:45:51 pm
Nigel, its Urdu.

میں نہیں چاہتا کہ ایک اچار   
I do not want a pickle
  میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں
I just want to ride my bike

I couldn't get the script for motorsickle   ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 16, 2012, 08:47:58 pm
TwinOKC, proper tire pressure and other setup along with familiarity and proper expectations gets rid of 99% of the wobble problems but it seems there is 1% that's got some real problem.  Maybe it just needs a tech more familiar with the specific setup issues to lay hands on it and make magic.  I'd just like to know why these exceptional wobblers are still uncured.

Desi, yup, that would happen too.  I think it would make the bike more stable but is only interesting for experimental discussion.

Nigel, totally!  I want better suspension and a bit more power but my mods stop where they start to significanlty compromise either aesthetics or reliability.  If I want more from this bike I really want a different bike.  Anything from Triumph's retro line would fit that bill so much better.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 16, 2012, 10:03:45 pm

Thanks Desi   
Never knew ancient Urdu philosophy ran so deep:   I imagine it also plumbs the depths of mortatality and purpose of life like
 "  I don't want to die:
   I just wanna ri-ide my-y    moooootor  cyy...........cle "     
    (which I just did this afternoon   ................thank goodnes .   In the nick of time before madness set in.--worse)         Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: SimonT on March 20, 2012, 01:25:47 am
Im gunna follow this thread very closely...

This is what i want to do...
1) exhaust + filter
2) larger front sprocket
3) piston/top end work...

i hope your ideas are similar :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on March 20, 2012, 04:37:59 pm


WOWZA !!!

Mr. Spambot put in 23 pages worth of new posts.

Anyway here is a bump to the post that I have been following very closely.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Maturin on March 20, 2012, 05:25:41 pm

WOWZA !!!

Mr. Spambot put in 23 pages worth of new posts.

Anyway here is a bump to the post that I have been following very closely.

I just had a look at their website. Their best seller is viagra. No further comment necessary.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: wokka on March 20, 2012, 07:00:49 pm
I just had a look at their website. Their best seller is viagra. No further comment necessary.

I have no idea how he would have any viagra left to sell, seems to me like that bloke is a pretty big cock altready
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on March 20, 2012, 09:40:36 pm
I have no idea how he would have any viagra left to sell, seems to me like that bloke is a pretty big cock altready

I suspect the drugs are actually chalk and any positive medical effects are placebo ones.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Desi Bike on March 21, 2012, 02:49:02 pm
Tried the viagra from that website.. Pill got stuck in my throat... Now I have a stiff neck.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: SimonT on March 22, 2012, 09:52:56 pm
boo doom tish....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on March 22, 2012, 11:54:46 pm
Trail is king but all those things come into play.  Still, why are some C5s like mine rock steady up to terminal velocity when others start to skitter around 55?  I find it hard to believe there's enough variation in the hand assembly to account for this.


It really seems like the old C5 geometry is on the edge of being unstable and only small changes push some bikes over. This would explain why fixes like replacing the nylon swing-arm bushes with better ones cure the wobble in some bikes but not others.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 11, 2012, 07:57:59 pm
Update!

Chumma has the B5, but he can't get to doing anything with it right away, because he has a few rebuild jobs to finish before he can start measuring it.

So, in the meantime, I have been trying to pull as much information together as I can.
I have gotten some very informative cam information from one of my friends in India.
And, one of our US members here has been so kind as to share a number of photos with me that he took during a repair operation on his C5.
I'll keep his name private unless he decides he wants to be known.

The basics look pretty good.
They have tuned this engine very mild. It has a lot more potential than what they are giving it from the factory.

No measurements on the ports yet, but they seem to be smaller than the Iron Barrel ports, and that would be helpful if they are. More meat to work with for shaping when the ports are small. I

The cams are very low lift. Shorter lift than the stock Iron Barrel by .010". I don't know why they use such low lift.  Max lift is .302" That's pretty meager lift. But, we'll see what we can do. Rockers are the same 1:1 ratio as the Iron Barrel rockers. In fact, they look like the Iron Barrel rockers with different mounting blocks.

And the cam duration is very short. Like 50 degrees shorter than the Iron Barrel.! That's a huge amount less duration.
But the timing events and lobe centers seem to be pretty good.

Valves seem to be a little smaller than the Iron Barrel valves too. I can't measure them yet, because I don't have the head here, but they appear to be a little bit smaller.

From my point of view, these are all relatively good signs, because it gives me room to improve it.
From the dyno charts I've seen on the UCE, the torque curve is very flat from the lowest rpms up to about 4000 rpm, and then it trails off. The breathing is running short. So, I think I see room to bring that breathing up to par for the normal 5500rpm limit of this bike.

All in all, I'm pretty optimistic.
I feel like I can work with this engine.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ragmas on April 11, 2012, 09:32:49 pm
Sweet!!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on April 12, 2012, 12:24:20 am
Ace:
Have you had a chance to look at pictures of the piston yet?

I recall reading that some of the older RE's pistons had a rather weak (poor) design in the webbing between the wrist  pin (gudgeon pin) bosses and the piston crown.  I've read that this weakness could lead to the top of the piston separating from the rest of the piston.

It would be good to hear the UCE pistons design corrected this situation.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on April 12, 2012, 12:27:36 am
Good news!!

Of course on current bikes a big issue is the restricted range of final drive ratios (limited to 19 tooth sprocket front o ryou hit the kick shaft and no change possible to the rear as the sprocket is part of the brake drum).

On the plus side the new rear disk bikes may finally see a Bullet with unlimited rear ratios :D

As far as pistons, I have heard of numerous crowns being ripped off iron Bullet and Electra pistons, is it also a problem with UCE bikes ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 12, 2012, 12:32:16 am
Ace:
Have you had a chance to look at pictures of the piston yet?

I recall reading that some of the older RE's pistons had a rather weak (poor) design in the webbing between the wrist  pin (gudgeon pin) bosses and the piston crown.  I've read that this weakness could lead to the top of the piston separating from the rest of the piston.

It would be good to hear the UCE pistons design corrected this situation.

Yes, I've seen the piston photos.
It actually looks pretty good, and I haven't heard of any piston failures in the UCE.

The issue is that it is a dished piston with a rather narrow squish band around  it, and it doesn't appear as though they are getting much squish out of it. I think that could be improved with a flat top piston that was set to a certain deck height that would achieve optimal squish. That should allow the higher compression ratio of the flat top, and still avoid pinging, if it all goes as planned.

The UCE piston is light years better than the OEM Iron Barrel piston. That's for sure.
But we may still need to put a different one in there for compression increase and squish.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 12, 2012, 12:51:02 pm
Also, I just got some more dimensional data on the head.

The intake port is about as big as the Iron Barrel, and even a touch bigger at the entry. But it appears to have a more normal shape, and a smaller valve, so it's a more normal shaped port than the Iron Barrel, and can be worked with.

The exhaust port and exhaust valve are smaller than the Iron Barrel, and I'm very happy about that.

Throat sizes are typical relationship to the valve. Maybe a little tight, which gives me some slight room to work on them too.

It seems to me that the bazooka muffler with the catalytic converter in it is a big obstruction that will need to go.

We'll have to experiment with the head internals to see what can be improved on it.
I have some ideas about it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on April 20, 2012, 12:58:01 am
Yes, I've seen the piston photos.

Photos ! Oh brother 'o brother, you have the bike in your garage brother.  Open 'er up already !

Or maybe you have and just won't tell us yet. I like that better !
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: BRADEY on April 20, 2012, 08:31:59 am
Ace don't disclose the owners name, but for God's sake, show the photos  ;D
'cause that would help so many owners to understand that bike so much better !!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 20, 2012, 01:43:53 pm
Okay.

This chamber photo shows almost everything in one shot.
And a shot of the piston also.

Intake port basically good size. A touch big, but close.
Exhaust port basically too small. Limiting exhaust flow at mid-higher rpms.
Chamber is ok. Not great. But not bad, considering we must have side-draft ports to fit under the tank in the bike.
Valves are smaller than the Iron Barrel valves, by about 10%.
Lift is about 5% less than the Iron Barrel.
Cam duration is about 20% less than the iron Barrel.

From what I can see so far, the UCE is getting its slight power benefit over the Iron Barrel by the use of higher compression. And it uses a small exhaust port to boost the torque at low rpms, and sacrifices torque in the higher rpms because the exhaust port is too small to work as well at the higher rpms, and it chokes off.
It will require some careful work on the flow bench to get a happy compromise of retaining the low rpm torque and getting a little more higher rpm power.

Overall, not too unusual in any way,and it can be worked with.

You can see how carboned-up the chamber is, an how it matches the color of the exhaust, which shows that the exhaust is backing-up into the chamber during running. Exhaust system too restrictive for higher rpm power, but works ok to give good torque at very low rpms.
This is why the torque curve shows high torque being developed early in the rpm range, but then falling off early at rpms above torque peak.
Note the clean intake port. The short cam overlap period is working to prevent exhaust reversion from entering the intake port, which is good.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: singhg5 on April 20, 2012, 02:26:32 pm
@ACE.CAFE:

It is nice to see the photo and read your explanation. 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenMachine on April 20, 2012, 04:21:19 pm
Ace: Don't have a UCE but love reading your analysis..Great stuff and the pics prove your point..That carbon buildup is something else...Out of curiosity, has the owner attempted to use to use any fuel additives or in your opinion a moot point due to the small exhaust port?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 20, 2012, 05:54:33 pm
Ace: Don't have a UCE but love reading your analysis..Great stuff and the pics prove your point..That carbon buildup is something else...Out of curiosity, has the owner attempted to use to use any fuel additives or in your opinion a moot point due to the small exhaust port?

Well, there was another issue involved with oil getting into the chamber. So that accounts for the oily deposits on the piston.

Regarding fuel additives, they can help to wash away some of the carbon. However, there is only a certain amount they can do for the exhaust system. Not much really.

Truthfully, I have seen much worse carbon build-up on other engines. But this one has enough to see what's going on.
It's not really the carbon build-up that is the problem. That's just a symptom. The problem is what is causing the carbon to build up. And it's building-up because the exhaust isn't getting out very well.

And many, if not most, stock production engines have issues like this. It's not unusual for stock engines to have a ton of things that need to be resolved. Factories just don't put a lot of attention into internal details because it is laborious and time-consuming, and slows production. If it's not an expensive performance vehicle,then it probably looks a lot like this inside, no matter who is making it.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 21, 2012, 01:35:00 am
Some additional information coming in.

The header pipe is double-walled. Presumably to reduce the appearance of heat discoloration. Unfortunately, the I.D. of this double-wall header pipe is 29mm.

So, it looks like the exhaust side of the UCE will require a lot of attention in this project.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on April 21, 2012, 03:57:55 am
I think the concept of restricted eshaust at lower RPM s to boost torque is what lies behind what Yamaha call "EXUP" exhaust management . Here are a couple of quotes

 "•The exhaust system also features a lightweight titanium EXUP exhaust power valve most commonly found on high performance sport bikes. The EXUP system not only provides crisp throttle response and eliminates 'flat spots" but also improves acceleration and reduces fuel consumption and harmful emissions."
(from Yamaha website )

and

Four-stroke power valve system
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The exhaust power valve of a 2007 Honda CBR600RR.

The servo motor controls the valve via two cables. Shown removed.
 
A Four-stroke power valve is a device fitted to four-stroke engines that constantly adjusts the internal diameter of the exhaust system to better suit engine speed. At low engine speeds the wave pressure within the pipe network is low. A full oscillation of the Helmholtz resonance occurs before the exhaust valve is closed, and to increase low-speed torque, large-amplitude exhaust pressure waves are artificially induced. This is achieved by partial closing of an internal butterfly valve within the exhaust at the point where the four primary pipes from the cylinders join. This junction point essentially behaves as an artificial atmosphere. The alteration of the pressure at this point controls the behavior of reflected waves at this sudden increase in area discontinuity. Closing the valve increases the local pressure, inducing the formation of larger-amplitude negative reflected expansion waves. A servo motor controlled by the ECU opens and shuts the valve.[1] The valve goes from being almost fully closed at idle speed, through to fully open at higher engine speeds. This ensures superior low to mid-range performance, more linear power output and reduced exhaust noise levels while the valve is in its reduced opening position.
 
Yamaha was the first to develop such a system, called the Exhaust Ultimate Power Valve (EXUP).[1] It is found on such models as the R6, R1, XV1900, MT-01 and Apex snowmobiles.
 
Later versions from Honda went by the names Honda Titanium Exhaust Valve (HTEV) and Honda Variable Intake/Exhaust (H-VIX),[1] appearing on the CBR600RR and Honda CBR929RR. Suzuki's version is called Suzuki Exhaust Tuning (SET).[1] The system is also used on the Triumph Daytona 675 triple."




Am I on the right track here, that in essence, exhaust  flow  is  of  necessity  a compromise in any engine that doesn,t have some active managment like "EXUP" :
And is that what those little flap thingamies on tractor exhaust pipes are for?  To increase back pressure in low flow states? If so I wonder if a low tech flap like that could have application in a single cylinder motorcycle engine? In medicine we use a similar principal to promote better exhalation for people with Chronic Obstructive Lung Disease (read "restricted ehaust port" ) by having them breathe out against resistance :  "CPAP" or continuous positive Airway Pressure, allowing for more complete exhalation of the air in the lung.   



Sounds like RE have done a low tech approach to this ultimately trading off the higher RPM performance in favour of low end torque. .  ACE , do you think it is possible to cram more air/fuel mix in through intake mods and thus allow a little less restrictive exhaust side to get more upper RPM tourqe without loss of the low end.? Sounds like one of those valve overlap mysteries.
Lest anyone  reading this think I know what I am talking about, I assure you I don't:  (The mechanically inclined will know that )  I just love seeing discussion of these tuning fundamental applied to the single cylinder engine.  Something very pure about it. Hard to explain.
Nigel
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on April 21, 2012, 05:43:54 am
Small exhaust pipes aren't necessary bad.

They are often the key to making a well engineered "tuned exhaust" because the high velocity of the exhaust can be used to create the negative pressure pulses that serve to charge the combustion chamber.

Of course these systems require a substantial exhaust/inlet valve overlap and the mild overlap used on the stock Royal Enfield coupled with the silencer is about as far from a tuned exhaust as the exhaust on a D-9 Caterpillar tractor.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 21, 2012, 01:25:20 pm
Nigel,
I think I can do it so that it won't suffer in the low rpm, and still reach a higher rpm range on top for better power.

The UCE exhaust port is small, so we only will open it up as much as it needs to do what we want it to do. This will require a single-wall header pipe of the full diameter, which I have heard is available from Hitchcock's.. That will give us enough room inside the pipe.

Then we'll work with the flow bench to adjust the port, by not increasing it any more than needed..
I have some creative ideas about what to do with this exhaust port.


Arizoni,
Yes, you're right that small exhaust pipes aren't necessarily bad.
But in this case, the 29mm size is just too small for what we'll need it to do. It's smaller than the Iron Barrel 350 pipe.

I think that this UCE was designed to make torque at very very low rpms, and as a result, it petered-out fairly early before making it to the higher rpms very well.
I actually believe that this was done purposely, because there is a cultural thing in India, where Bullet owners ride their bikes in top gear at ridiculously low rpms, so that they can hear it thumping at a very slow rate while they ride. Sort of like lugging the bike on purpose!
That sort of riding would, of course, require a lot of low rpm torque.
I really think that is why we see this UCE made like this. I think it was done to please the Indian Home Market riding style.
However, for our use on the US highways, we need something a little different.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on April 21, 2012, 02:04:27 pm
So is it theoretically possible to use some kind of weighted flap like the damper in a stovepipe to give variable resistance and back pressure "downstream" from the exhaust port?  ie open up the exhaust port to allow less restircted gas flow at higher outputs but locally boost back pressure in the exhaust port to assist low RPM function all "servo controlled" by the flow itself without fancy servo motor feedback.?  Just asking.  Nigel.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 21, 2012, 02:50:51 pm
So is it theoretically possible to use some kind of weighted flap like the damper in a stovepipe to give variable resistance and back pressure "downstream" from the exhaust port?  ie open up the exhaust port to allow less restircted gas flow at higher outputs but locally boost back pressure in the exhaust port to assist low RPM function all "servo controlled" by the flow itself without fancy servo motor feedback.?  Just asking.  Nigel.

I don't think it can be done without a servo or at least a control cable of some kind. And it has to be at the right place in the exhaust pipe to work with the wave tuning. The last thing we want is a weighted gate restricting the exhaust flow, from a performance perspective. There is no backpressure that is good. ALL backpressure is bad. The purpose of certain pipe sizes in the exhaust is to set exhaust stream speeds so that the exiting "slug" of exhaust gas causes a partial vacuum behind it, to serve the cause of extraction of the last remaining gases in the cylinder. That's why pipes are not just wide open huge drain pipes.  Huge pipes lose power from slow exhaust gas speeds, because that doesn't scavenge the exhaust from the cylinder as well, leaving some component of exhaust gas in the cylinder, diluting the next incoming mixture charge and reducing power.

Regarding your allusion to the flap on the top of tractor exhausts, that's a rain flap to keep the rain from going into the exhaust pipe It's not a tuning device in that application.
In the application of the Yamaha and Honda, they are very high rpm bikes with very wide rpm ranges. It's extremely difficult to be able to make useful power at 4000 rpm and 14000 rpm  without some very creative methods to help strengthen the lower rpms. If you have a system which will support 14000 rpm, it is going to be poorly suited to running at 4000 rpms.  Things like EXUP and Variable Valve Timing devices are attempts to deal with it.

In the case of the Bullet, where the rpm range is relatively short in comparison, it's not as necessary. We can do it in more traditional and simple ways than using such technologies.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ROVERMAN on April 21, 2012, 04:43:42 pm
Very nice reply Ace, you are right on the money. Seem's that you are on top of this issue, good luck.
Robert & REnfield.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on April 21, 2012, 06:00:23 pm
Thank you    ACE As usual  your postings are  an ongoing education (hopefully not just for me).  Interesting , in a way, that reaching back to an older design concept renders irrelevant  all sorts intervening technical progress that has developed to meet needs not anticipated in the older designs.  I think it is  actually rather amazing that the stock UCE is capable of modern highway legal speeds,gratifying feeling performance,  and delivery of 82 mpg (Imperial) using a fairly basic design  It sort of makes you wonder what real purpose all the intervening technical wizardry serves.  It will be fun to watch this project unforld.      Nigel.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on April 21, 2012, 06:22:59 pm
it sort of makes you wonder what real purpose all the intervening technical wizardry serves. 

0-60 times faster than any car that costs less than $500,000. ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on April 21, 2012, 08:37:34 pm
The Hitchcocks UCE pipe is part number 91085, 65 pounds.  Description from the site:

"An English made exhaust pipe which is a direct replacement for the Indian made pipe. The standard exhaust pipe has a small internal diameter which severely restricts the potential performance of the engine. It will allow you to retain the standard silencer if required. "

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/page.php?currentpageref=113

They also have a Classic style silencer that fits this pipe, part number 91080, or Goldstar, 91150, and several other styles for the UCE.

They also have a nice little chart on that page showing an old style Bullet 500 (not UCE) going from ~16hp to about ~19hp with and exhaust swap.  Interesting data point.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on April 21, 2012, 08:43:49 pm
Unfortunately, they don't have the spigot to plug the oxygen sensor into. Would like to see some that did.
I like the way my EFI is working.
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 21, 2012, 08:50:01 pm
I think  there should be some way to get a bung on there to take the O2 sensor.
I have seen some arrangements for mounting a EGT sensor on a pipe. Perhaps a method like that could be used.

I would like to retain the EFI with the closed loop.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on April 21, 2012, 11:02:54 pm
Speaking of the O2 sensor, I wonder if the small exhaust pipe (and the resulting backpressure) is intended to keep the O2 sensor in a temperature range where it will work efficiently?

I really don't have a good knowledge of exactly what these sensors requirements are except that most of them use a heater circuit to boost them up to operating temperature when the exhaust system is cold.

I'm sure Ace is correct about the very low "Thump" that is so loved by the Indians had a large influence in the design of the entire engine and exhaust.

In any event, it will be interesting to see what a EFI 500cc RE can produce with a non-restrictive pipe.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Kevin Mahoney on April 21, 2012, 11:59:21 pm
There is more engineering than you might think about the placement of the O2 sensor. The requirements were developed by Keihin. It is in a very specific position  relative to the exhaust valve and manifold. It is also at a very specific angle to prolong life, mostly because of moisture during operation.

They do have a small heater built in which helps them get up to operating temperature more quickly than normal. When you first start the bike you may notice a little "hunting" until you get a couple of minutes of operation. When that stops is when the O2 sensor kicks in. At that point the combustion process is completely under computer control with the O2 sensor being one of the main components. It gives feedback to the ECU about what the mixture is doing and the ECU in turn adjust other parameters. Pretty cool system actually.

If you make adjustments to the air flow with airfulters, exhaust systems etc. it still still adjust the A/F mixture to the optimum value. There are two ECU's available one for domestic models which are tuned for economy and one for exports which are more aggressive but still stay well within the prescribed pollution  limits. A stock bike will churn out about half of the max. values for California so we really are a green bike.

All of this is controlled by the "MAP" that is installed in the ECU. It tells the injector and timing what to do given every possible condition. It is a mammoth job. Sometimes what looks good on paper is not viable in the real world. That is why it takes EXTENSIVE testing to get right. You can find a starting place in the library of MAPS, but that is like saying you can find a map of the outline of the US. You still have to put all of the roads in.

A device such as a "Power Commander" takes the stock map and "tricks it" by giving the ECU reading that are different than those actually coming from each sensor. They are used to enhance performance but foul up your emissions. They are not a simple plug and play thing. To do a MAP correctly takes a dyno and a lot of time and experience. There are lots on unintended consequences when changing a MAP.

Some bike have programmable ECU's. You can go to a dealership and they can put in a new MAP. Normally these are developed by the manufacturer and still stay within the law. There are others who make MAPS that are not within the law but that is another story. The RE does not have a programmable MAP. Keihin holds the MAP as a proprietary secret.

In short changing or developing a new MAP is not easy, for the faint of heart or the inexperienced.

You could put a carb on a UCE engine but you would have to grapple with the timing of the engine. Probably using an AVL ignition would be one idea.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 22, 2012, 12:50:59 am
Kevin,
Thanks for the valuable input on the EFI.

I'd like to use the EFI, and will try to work a way to have the sensors working the way they should.

It would be nice to have a pipe with a full diameter that has a bung for the O2 sensor already in it. But if we have to make something that will work, it's possible to do that.
I'm already accustomed to having to make things up when necessary.

And if the carb becomes necessary, I think I have a way to work that in.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on April 22, 2012, 03:20:17 pm
"All our exhaust pipes have provision for the original oxygen sensor."

Right out of the Hitchcocks Motorcycles 2012 catalog, under EFI Exhaust Systems.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 22, 2012, 05:36:41 pm
"All our exhaust pipes have provision for the original oxygen sensor."

Right out of the Hitchcocks Motorcycles 2012 catalog, under EFI Exhaust Systems.

That sounds like good news to me!
Thanks for checking that out!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on April 28, 2012, 02:02:31 pm
I confirmed it with them via e-mail before I placed my order. I was going to get an EFI pipe from NField Gear, but it was out of stock, so I got the equivalent from Hitchcock's. I figured I'd get the header pipe to make it a complete exhaust. I'll post a few pics of the pipe when it arrives.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 28, 2012, 02:22:12 pm
I confirmed it with them via e-mail before I placed my order. I was going to get an EFI pipe from NField Gear, but it was out of stock, so I got the equivalent from Hitchcock's. I figured I'd get the header pipe to make it a complete exhaust. I'll post a few pics of the pipe when it arrives.

Dear Hobbydad,
I would love to know the inside diameter of that pipe when you get it.
If you could measure the I.D. of it on the end that goes into the cylinder head and post it here, I would very much appreciate that!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on April 28, 2012, 02:42:17 pm
Sure thing, I'll get out the calipers as soon as it arrives. I'm not sure exactly when that will be, I picture it coming over on a slow boat, lol.

I have a 19T sprocket coming with it as well. I'm going to see how close a K&N, their exhaust system, and the 19T get me to 100 mph. If it's not close enough I have money burning a hole in my pocket for their 535 piston/cylinder kit.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 28, 2012, 04:39:46 pm
Sure thing, I'll get out the calipers as soon as it arrives. I'm not sure exactly when that will be, I picture it coming over on a slow boat, lol.

I have a 19T sprocket coming with it as well. I'm going to see how close a K&N, their exhaust system, and the 19T get me to 100 mph. If it's not close enough I have money burning a hole in my pocket for their 535 piston/cylinder kit.

Okay.

I'm hoping to have a cylinder head here pretty soon, and we can get started on the head work.

With a 19T sprocket, we'll need to make peak power of around 36 hp at the rear wheel at 5600 rpm to make the Ton.
In stock form, the bike makes about 19.8 hp at 4750 rpm, at the rear wheel.

Basically, the task entails approximately doubling the rear wheel horsepower, and moving the hp peak to approximately 5600 rpm. We might be able to get away with a couple less hp, but not much less. And it will have to peak around 5500-5600 rpm.
That's what it takes to make the Ton.

If you use a good fairing and low bars to put you in a tuck, then you might be able to do it with a few less hp.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on April 28, 2012, 04:44:32 pm
Oh, is that all?  And I thought you needed a steering stabilizer and a cafe fairing ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 28, 2012, 05:23:53 pm
Oh, is that all?  And I thought you needed a steering stabilizer and a cafe fairing ;)

Heh!
It's not such an easy task that some people seem to think.

When we did the Fireball, we started with a bike that peaked at 16hp at the rear wheel at around 4400rpm, and ended up with a bike that peaked at 37 hp at the rear wheel at around 5800 rpm.

And when we put that thing on the road, we were maxxing out at 96-98 mph, and having a very tough time getting any higher.
Eventually with some improved tuning techniques, we were able to sneak it over the Ton, but not by much. Chumma's bike did 102 mph.
Of course, this was a naked military bike with the hard luggage bags on it,which wasn't the paragon of aerodynamics. But, it was what Chumma had, and we were determined to get the Ton with it.
After it was all said and done, we were able to get unfaired regular Fireballs (without baggage) up to nearly 105 mph, if they were tuned perfectly, and had the shortened header for wave tuning the exhaust.

It definitely takes some work.
If it was easy, everybody would already be doing it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: jartist on April 28, 2012, 05:43:49 pm
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how they hit the ton on the cafe racer tv series. My guess is that they either lie about it, run downhill in a tail wind, or put NOS on it or some other cheat.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on April 28, 2012, 06:03:42 pm
Oh, is that all?  And I thought you needed a steering stabilizer and a cafe fairing ;)

After about 65-70 mph just overcoming wind drag needs a lot of torque forget accelerating to the ton.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Kevin Mahoney on April 28, 2012, 06:24:21 pm
I want to reinforce what Ace has said about "if it were easy everyone would be doing it". This is not as simple or as easy as you might think. Just throwing off weight and adding a few teeth to the sprocket will not do it. With sprockets and weight reduction you hit the point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. It takes the whole package to do a good job. Chassis, engine, fairing and rider
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on April 28, 2012, 07:12:09 pm
My rev limiter goes to 5900.
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on April 28, 2012, 09:46:58 pm
Yeah, I have no delusions of grandeur. I'm just curious what I can do in my garage with a few bolt on's. I have a good friend that got me interested in riding again and he has a V-Strom. His idea of a "ride" is a 3 week trip from Ohio to Yellowstone and back. Ideally I'd just like to have a more comfortable high end crusing speed, so we can ride together. It would be cool to hit 100, but it's not a requirement. My bikes a '11 C5 Military, and I have no plans on stripping it down to the frame, or changing any of the bodywork.

Just out of curiosity, when I had it up to 80 the other day it seemed really smooth. I could tell that's about all it had in it, but it was obviously not on the rev limiter, which is what I thought would limit it . What's holding it back then, is the engine just starving? Can't get enough air in or out in the stock configuration? I'm mechanically inclined, but this is relatively new to me.

Edit: And to Kevin, having only owned my C5 for 3-4 weeks, I told my dealer I would be back to buy the first Enfield Cafe Racer he got his hands on.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 28, 2012, 10:29:18 pm

Just out of curiosity, when I had it up to 80 the other day it seemed really smooth. I could tell that's about all it had in it, but it was obviously not on the rev limiter, which is what I thought would limit it . What's holding it back then, is the engine just starving? Can't get enough air in or out in the stock configuration? I'm mechanically inclined, but this is relatively new to me.


Top speed is reached when the forces holding the bike back(rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag) are equal to the maximum horsepower output of the engine at the rpm it is at, after being transmitted to the rearwheel. Your resistance forces equal your forward propulsion capacity.

The reason you couldn't go beyond about 80 mph is because the  gearing puts you at that speed when you hit the max hp output rpm of around 4800 or so.
This can vary a little bit from bike to bike, and especially from rider to rider, because a larger rider will cause higher aero drag.
You are essentially horsepower limited at that point.

If you weren't horsepower limited there, you would be able to continue to a higher speed.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on April 28, 2012, 10:44:04 pm
Gotcha, I am definetly limited in the rider to HP ratio, lol. I'm 6'3" 240, so I have that to overcome.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: BRADEY on April 29, 2012, 05:46:02 am
This is the nicest thread I am part of, after the Fireball. I'm Luvin It !! ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 04, 2012, 10:47:23 am
My parts landed in New York on 5/2, but instead of being delivered to me in Toledo, Ohio on 5/3, they arrived in Fresno, California. Apparently by mistake, no kidding? No wonder the USPS is in trouble, geez. Maybe I'll have everything yet this weekend, we'll see.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 04, 2012, 08:50:58 pm
My parts landed in New York on 5/2, but instead of being delivered to me in Toledo, Ohio on 5/3, they arrived in Fresno, California. Apparently by mistake, no kidding? No wonder the USPS is in trouble, geez. Maybe I'll have everything yet this weekend, we'll see.

Hobbydad,
When you put the exhaust pipe on, try to resist opening up the exhaust port to match it, unless you are certain you don't ever want it to be professionally ported.
We'll soon be working on that, and it will eventually be available, and we will be doing the exhaust port properly for sure.

Once the head has been modified, it makes it impossible for us to go in and make it right afterwards.
Just a "heads up"! :D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: REpozer on May 04, 2012, 10:47:01 pm
Ace, as much as I enjoy my AVL engine, you guys are making feel jealous.  :D

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 04, 2012, 10:56:37 pm
Ace, as much as I enjoy my AVL engine, you guys are making feel jealous.  :D



Repozer,
If I could have done the AVL, i would have.
There was too much needed to correct, and the needed procedures were too costly to make it worthwhile to do, and there aren't enough of them out there to make it financially viable as a project. Even Bullet Whisperer seems to have given up now.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: REpozer on May 04, 2012, 11:13:49 pm
Thanks Ace. I understand.
 The AVL is fun and reliable in stock form. But it"s defiantly NO Fireball.

If I can ever wear it out, I will look for a B5.

Best wishes for the Ace UCE project!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 12:09:23 am
I recieved everything today, I'll have some pics and measurements for you shortly (I'm at work now). I have already installed the exhaust and tappet cover, couldn't start on the 19T yet, they had a typo on the order and didn't send my case gasket. I'll give you a quick run thru of the install issues too, nothing major, but a few are noteworthy.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 01:30:59 am
Ok, I won't be able to post any pics until tomorrow, no way to do it from work. I do have my note with measurements though, these where taken quickly with my inexpensive mechanical calipers, so bear with me.

Old pipe (and yes, this is the right order)
Top ID- 1.175"
Bot ID- 1.315"

New pipe
Top ID- 1.650" w/o adaptor ring
Top ID- 1.250" w/ adaptor ring
Bot ID- 1.535" reduced to slip into muffler

You'll see the adaptor ring I'm talking about in the pics, it's a seperate piece that slips into the bigger pipe, reducing it to the heads exhaust port size. Looks like its steel, maybe iron, pretty heavy duty. You could probably go to town porting it to match a modified head. I installed it as is, since mines a stocker. Also should note, I don't believe it's possible to go without it.

I can tell you without a doubt that not only is the new muffler 1/4 the weight of the torpedo, the new pipe is 1/4 the weight of the double walled stocker. In fact, I thought for a second it was actually a 1/8" thick steel pipe.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 02:27:41 am
Installation notes:
You have to play around with their exhaust flange, see how it best fits your head. It can go on 4 different ways, but on mine it only fit right 1 way, and I had to trim one small fin about 1/16" to get it right. They give you two gaskets, stack them to get a proper fit/seal, that's the way mine was done from Enfield.

The pipe is bigger externally, once installed my rear brake lever hit on the bottom of it. My stop bolt for the lever was already adjusted all the way down, so I had to take the jam nut from the top and put it on the bottom. Once I did this I made a minor adjustment to keep the lever off the pipe.

The o2 sensors in a slightly different spot, so I removed the zip tie for a little more play. I put the zip tie back on to keep the horn and clutch cable in place. Wind the o2 sensor up a bit counter-clockwise, so when you tighten it down the wirings relatively straight.

The muffler/bracket/clamp all went together without an issue, simple and well thought out. My muffler didn't have an insert, the hole is there for a bolt, but nothing's there to remove. I'll have to check their catalog, but I think it says something about that. I took a pic looking up through it, it's like an old glass pack, straight shot pretty much. I rode it into work tonight, sounds great, no backfire at all.

Last but not least, the tappet cover. 2 of the 4 allen bolts where stripped from Enfield, but I got them out by tapping torx bits into them. It looked like the engine builder liked his silicone sealer, he must have used damn near a tube of it. I cleaned it all up, went to the local hardware store for new 5mm bolts (they had them in stainless with phillips heads, that'll work for now), and put it back together. Love the look of the lettering, no more "EFI", lol.

I'd like to take a second to say, these parts are all top notch. There's a premium to pay for them, but the chrome looks good, the welds are great, and everything fit the way it was supposed to. I'd recommend these parts to anyone that asked.

Now, if only I had that case gasket.....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 02:02:52 pm
Parts right out of the box. You can see the adaptor I talk about
over to the right, next to the gaskets & clamp.
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3817/img0734e.jpg)

Quite a differance, in size & weight.
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7140/img0735ca.jpg)

Wow!
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/862/img0738wm.jpg)

Even with the insert it's bigger. I know it doesn't look like it,
but if you look closely at the old pipe, you can see there's
carbon buildup along the lip that makes it look bigger. The ID
is so small at the top that it's actually "in" the exhaust port.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8245/img0739yc.jpg)

A couple of close-ups, showing the welds/chrome/o2 bung/flange/ect.
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1664/img0737og.jpg)
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2826/img0740gb.jpg)

A look thru the muffler, pretty much a straight shot. It sounds awesome.
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5224/img0736ws.jpg)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 05, 2012, 04:26:11 pm
Hobbydad,
That was some great info and great pics!
Thanks!

It really helps me to begin formulating some plans which can now include some dimensions for including the transition to the pipe.
Very helpful.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 05, 2012, 04:54:22 pm
+1, thanks!   Those pics tell a story.  The stock pipe looks so small in comparison. 

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 05:00:09 pm
I'm glad to help. From the looks of it, it's basically a 1-5/8" pipe, necked down to 1-1/2" for the slip-on. The bushing takes it down to 1-1/4" at the exhaust port, the bushings meaty and has alot of room to work with. I should have taken a few measurements of just the bushing itself. I'll have my case gasket by next weekend, and I'm thinking of dropping the exhaust to pull the case. I know it's not needed, but if I do I'll take a few close-ups of just the bushing and get a few more measurements.

Edit; The most amazing part of the swap was the stock headers weight, I still can't get over how heavy that pipe was. Even the difference between the mufflers pales in comparison to the headers. Also, and I'll add this to the trade section, if anyone wants any of the stock pieces for any reason, I'd be glad to send them out for the cost of shipping. They won't be going back on the bike, ever.  :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 05, 2012, 07:34:50 pm
(http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/5382/img0746u.jpg)
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8404/img0743fu.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6904/img0741kc.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5580/img0744vd.jpg)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 05, 2012, 08:42:32 pm
Send it to Ace, let hI'm see what we're dealing with.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: BRADEY on May 06, 2012, 06:57:07 am
Hobbydad, how much was the damage to the exchequer............!!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 06, 2012, 06:52:30 pm
It was about $250 pounds shipped, so whatever that transfers over to in dollars. Money well spent I think.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, can the UCE top end be taken off with the motor in the bike? If I where to order their piston & cylinder set, could I install it without dropping the engine out? I know the upper end is assembled with studs, and the parts obviously stack. It looks like I'd be ok by simply removing the gas tank.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 06, 2012, 07:31:09 pm
It was about $250 pounds shipped, so whatever that transfers over to in dollars. Money well spent I think.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, can the UCE top end be taken off with the motor in the bike? If I where to order their piston & cylinder set, could I install it without dropping the engine out? I know the upper end is assembled with studs, and the parts obviously stack. It looks like I'd be ok by simply removing the gas tank.

Yes, the top end can come off while the engine is still in the bike.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on May 06, 2012, 10:34:19 pm
Repozer,
If I could have done the AVL, i would have.
There was too much needed to correct, and the needed procedures were too costly to make it worthwhile to do, and there aren't enough of them out there to make it financially viable as a project. Even Bullet Whisperer seems to have given up now.


Given up? Far from it, Ace ! But as you say, there are not too many AVL machines about compared with other models. The Electra X was still in production when I embarked on the tuning work. I could turn another one round in a short time frame, but there isn't the demand, a high percentage of owners must be satisfied with them in a fairly standard form. My tuning work is only a small sideline to restoration, including wheel building, for many makes and types of classic machinery.
 That said, I have just created another 'Asbo' Bullet, this one is a 350 iron from 2006, which moved like a crippled slug when it arrived, but is a little more rapid now !
 No, the basics of what I do haven't changed, but if they don't come through the door, they don't get done.
 There are some tasty BSA / Triumph Triples here at present, one with three pipes stacked up one side  ;D.
 The AVL is easy to tune, shame they stopped making them, I doubt I will try tuning an EFI, as I am too busy with other stuff, and you look like you have that one taken care of and in safe hands, even the racing is taking a back seat at present
 I am snowed under with work and enjoying every minute of it !
 All the best,
 B.W.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 07, 2012, 12:48:14 am
Given up? Far from it, Ace ! But as you say, there are not too many AVL machines about compared with other models. The Electra X was still in production when I embarked on the tuning work. I could turn another one round in a short time frame, but there isn't the demand, a high percentage of owners must be satisfied with them in a fairly standard form. My tuning work is only a small sideline to restoration, including wheel building, for many makes and types of classic machinery.
 That said, I have just created another 'Asbo' Bullet, this one is a 350 iron from 2006, which moved like a crippled slug when it arrived, but is a little more rapid now !
 No, the basics of what I do haven't changed, but if they don't come through the door, they don't get done.
 There are some tasty BSA / Triumph Triples here at present, one with three pipes stacked up one side  ;D.
 The AVL is easy to tune, shame they stopped making them, I doubt I will try tuning an EFI, as I am too busy with other stuff, and you look like you have that one taken care of and in safe hands, even the racing is taking a back seat at present
 I am snowed under with work and enjoying every minute of it !
 All the best,
 B.W.

Very good, BW!
Glad to hear things are going well for you!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: singhg5 on May 08, 2012, 04:13:22 am
(http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/5382/img0746u.jpg)

Mike: 

Very nice pictures and information on the size of the pipes.  Your new EFI pipe and silencer looks absolutely wonderful.

Does it have a better pick up ? How loud is it at idle and at high speed as compared to stock bazooka ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 08, 2012, 07:39:06 am
Thanks Sing, for the compliment and your great YouTube videos, which I have already put to use.
As for the bike, I haven't gotten to take it out for more than a few miles since the installation, but my butt dyno says its improved. I've had the bike maxed to 80 once, and that's probably where my comparison will be, as soon as I can get back to an open country road. I would say the sound at idle and at speed is at least doubled. I liked the way the stock torpedo sounded, but I love the way this system sounds. I'll get it out in the next day or so for the top end run, I want another benchmark before I install the 19T, which will be this coming weekend.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: BRADEY on May 11, 2012, 09:11:04 am
All performance hungry riders must read this article "Steve Lindsell's 102 MPH Lap at the Isle of MAN" published in the latest edition of the "THE BEAT" magazine published by Royal Enfield http://royalenfield.com/images/publication/magazine/The_Beat_%20March_%20April%202012_lowres.pdf (http://royalenfield.com/images/publication/magazine/The_Beat_%20March_%20April%202012_lowres.pdf)

Just goes on to prove again and again, how underbuilt these RE bikes were and still are. I think tuners like ACE can do wonders with the new UCE engines !!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: aikischmid on May 14, 2012, 03:20:03 am
My parts landed in New York on 5/2, but instead of being delivered to me in Toledo, Ohio on 5/3, they arrived in Fresno, California. Apparently by mistake, no kidding? No wonder the USPS is in trouble, geez. Maybe I'll have everything yet this weekend, we'll see.

Hobbydad, you're in Toledo, Ohio? Meet your newest stalker ;) I live in the Old South End behind the zoo. If you ever see a guy on a green G5 with a leather jacket that has Thumper painted on the back of it... pull me over so we can chat!
I'm anxiously awaiting Ace's UCE project to come to fruition, because I'm all about making my beloved G5 a little more high-performance! Your military looks so rad - I'll definitely keep my eyes out for ya!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project
Post by: Hobbydad on May 14, 2012, 09:21:12 am
Yeah, I'm on the far east side, almost Northwood. I can usually be found crusing up & down 65 along the river, between Rossford & Grand Rapids, beautiful ride. I've pulled up every event calendar I can find for Ohio, and plan on getting to as many cruises & shows as possible this year. The wife & I rode out to the Parkway Plaza car show Friday, that's in your neck of the woods. We'll probably be there on a regular basis. I'm sure we'll see each other at some point  :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 14, 2012, 10:16:15 pm
Finally had a chance to get to a stretch of open road today. Seat of the pants feel is great right off the line, but didn't really have any top speed improvements. With the new parts I can get it up to 70 in fourth quickly, but switching up to fifth only gets the same 80 mph top end. The 60-70 mph range in fifth is great, and that's what I was hoping for. Now I can cruise along with my friends more modern bikes without issue.

I'm happy with the header/muffler, 19T, K&N, but it'll take motor work to get me to a more ballistic top speed.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 14, 2012, 11:49:12 pm
Finally had a chance to get to a stretch of open road today. Seat of the pants feel is great right off the line, but didn't really have any top speed improvements. With the new parts I can get it up to 70 in fourth quickly, but switching up to fifth only gets the same 80 mph top end. The 60-70 mph range in fifth is great, and that's what I was hoping for. Now I can cruise along with my friends more modern bikes without issue.

I'm happy with the header/muffler, 19T, K&N, but it'll take motor work to get me to a more ballistic top speed.

We will do our best to accommodate the need in the motor work department.
It's pretty clearly a breathing issue.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 15, 2012, 12:12:53 am
I'll be looking forward to your work.

Quick question, are the rocker cover gaskets re-usable? They appear to be rubber. I ask because my lifters/rockers are exceptionally loud after today's ride, and I thought about taking a look at the rockers. I did hit the rev limiter twice today in 3rd & 4th (I think), the bike just pulls completely thru the lower gears. I was watching the speedo climb trying to get a feel for the shift point, and it bounced once in 3rd, and once in 4th. I was approaching a stop after my upshift to 5th, so I pulled in the clutch and coasted to the sign. The bike stalled out on me, so I went to the side of the road and gave it a sec before restarting. No issue restarting, but it acted funky after for the rest of the ride. When I got home I double checked all the exhaust fasteners, pulled the plug to check the color & gap, and checked the oil level. Everything checked out fine, but it still sounds loud to me, louder than normal. Is there a chance one of the hydraulic lifters collapsed, or maybe a stud pulled a bit? I hardly think two hits on the rev limiter would cause any serious issues, especially under load, but I guess you never know.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 15, 2012, 12:42:53 am
Totally reusable.   Same for the grommets on the valve cover bolts.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 15, 2012, 01:27:02 am
I'll be looking forward to your work.

Quick question, are the rocker cover gaskets re-usable? They appear to be rubber. I ask because my lifters/rockers are exceptionally loud after today's ride, and I thought about taking a look at the rockers. I did hit the rev limiter twice today in 3rd & 4th (I think), the bike just pulls completely thru the lower gears. I was watching the speedo climb trying to get a feel for the shift point, and it bounced once in 3rd, and once in 4th. I was approaching a stop after my upshift to 5th, so I pulled in the clutch and coasted to the sign. The bike stalled out on me, so I went to the side of the road and gave it a sec before restarting. No issue restarting, but it acted funky after for the rest of the ride. When I got home I double checked all the exhaust fasteners, pulled the plug to check the color & gap, and checked the oil level. Everything checked out fine, but it still sounds loud to me, louder than normal. Is there a chance one of the hydraulic lifters collapsed, or maybe a stud pulled a bit? I hardly think two hits on the rev limiter would cause any serious issues, especially under load, but I guess you never know.

I can't say about the noise.
You'll have to just see what it sounds like to you.

Just FYI, there's no point in hitting the rev limiter at this stock stage of tune, because it's done making power by 4750 rpm. Anything more than that, and you are actually making less power as you go up in revs.
And the torque band is so wide, you don't have to worry about dropping off the power when you shift.

Hydraulic lifters have a nasty habit of pumping up as higher rpms are reached. Any instability in the valve train, and the lifters take up the extra lash, and then the valves don't close all the way until the lifters can drain back down.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 15, 2012, 02:25:07 am
Thanks for the replys, all good info. As for the limiter, I wasn't meaning to hit it at all. I was in the higher gears, and it felt like it had more to give, so I kept going. I burped once in 3rd and I upshifted, then it did it again in 4th and I upshifted. It's not anything I plan on repeating.  :)

I figured I'd pull the tank and take the rocker covers off just to take a look, I like to tinker. Everything looked ok up there. I cycled it 3-4 times by hand with the kick starter, nothing seemed out of place that I could tell. I put it all back together, if the louder valve train noise continues I'll let my dealer listen to it.

I took the opportunity while I had the tank & seat off to re-route all the bikes wiring. I also pulled the battery/tool box/air box/fuse box, and rear fender to do a complete job from end to end. I don't care for the wire wraps or ties they use, so I bought a bag of good zip ties and re-did it all. I did the bars too, only thing left is behind the headlight, maybe I'll finish it tomorrow. I think it looks much cleaner now, very happy I took the time to straighten it up.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Hobbydad on May 15, 2012, 11:09:34 pm
I'm 100% positive I've narrowed down the louder valve train noise I thought I was hearing. It's the louder clicking you hear when you first start it up cold, it eventually stops when the engine warms. The decompressor? It's not stopping, or closing, or whatever it does when the engine warms. I'm sure of it after listening to it today, that's the clicking I hear, constantly now. It might explain why the exhasust sounds weird to me as well. Is there anything I can do to check this out, or should I just take it to the dealer for inspection? I don't mind pulling a case cover or two. Is there anything electrical, or is it strictly mechanical in nature?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 15, 2012, 11:27:22 pm
I'm 100% positive I've narrowed down the louder valve train noise I thought I was hearing. It's the louder clicking you hear when you first start it up cold, it eventually stops when the engine warms. The decompressor? It's not stopping, or closing, or whatever it does when the engine warms. I'm sure of it after listening to it today, that's the clicking I hear, constantly now. It might explain why the exhasust sounds weird to me as well. Is there anything I can do to check this out, or should I just take it to the dealer for inspection? I don't mind pulling a case cover or two. Is there anything electrical, or is it strictly mechanical in nature?

As I understand that decompressor, it is rpm actuated.
I don't know the rpm, though.
What I know is that it works on a centrifugal actuator with a spring, which causes a little "hump" to come up thru the cam lobe when the rpms are below a certain amount, and that lifts the exhaust valve as the cam goes around, and releases the compression in the cylinder.
At a certain rpm, it is supposed to be retracted by the flyweight system inside the cam, and not work again until the rpms drop.
So, I suspect you might be able to get rid of that issue by increasing the idle speed rpm.
If that doesn't work, then it might be sticking.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 15, 2012, 11:44:08 pm
I believe it's 250RPM.  They tend to stick open for a bit when it's cold.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on May 15, 2012, 11:52:21 pm
I seem to recall reading somewhere the lift off speed was 700 rpm but whatever it is it is less than the idle speed.

I also noticed that when the oil is cold the auto decompression would tend to "hang up" and cause a loud clicking.
Revving the engine just a little always got the things attention and it would stop causing the loud clicks.

IMO, if riding the motorcycle doesn't make it quit a visit to the shop should be made.

Riding the bike with the exhaust valve hanging open for any distance can burn the exhaust valve and the valve seat.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 16, 2012, 12:00:41 am
Maybe it was 750RPM.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project
Post by: Hobbydad on May 16, 2012, 12:55:51 am
Yeah, that's what it is. It's either stuck or broken, I'll take it in and have them look at it tomorrow. Now that I know what it is, I don't think it was the rev limiter that made it burp & stall, it was this. I distinctly remember when it did it in 4th and stalled, I had just hit 65mph. I've been up to 70 in 4th a few times, it wasn't the limiter. I was really hoping to avoid not having the bike to any length of time, but if it needs work so be it, it's for the best.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on May 16, 2012, 04:15:10 am

That's not far from where I spent my youth ..... I lived on Vassar&Glendale (near Harvard) .....   I come back every five years or so ~ maybe someday I'll come home for good.

Jim in Minneapolis ....

Hobbydad, you're in Toledo, Ohio? Meet your newest stalker ;) I live in the Old South End behind the zoo.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on May 21, 2012, 10:21:10 pm
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2woviqe.jpg)

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2a9bfbm.jpg)

not sure if this will be of any help though!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ice on May 21, 2012, 11:16:34 pm
Hi iron.head and welcome aboard.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on May 22, 2012, 12:39:53 am

cool photos, what caused the abnormal wear ?  do both engines have approx the same history ?

not sure if this will be of any help though!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 22, 2012, 12:55:07 am
That photo of the piston is showing that there was some grit of some kind in the oil that was on the bore, which scored the thrust face of the skirt.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 22, 2012, 04:45:21 pm
I had a long meeting with the guys at Mondello's yesterday.
A variety of approaches were discussed, and I gave them a pretty good budget to do their development experiments with. My instructions were to get the best bang for the buck that they could get, and I didn't limit what they could do with it. Whatever would give the most, is the instruction, as long as it wouldn't put the final price out of range of the buyers.

I also stipulated that I'd like to be able to offer at least 2 "stages" of performance, so that people on a budget with modest performance improvements wouldn't be forced into a high price option.

One  of the biggest things to come out of the meeting was that they think they may be able to get enough flow improvement out of the exhaust port without moving it around, or enlarging it beyond what the stock pipe can take. This is still a conjecture, but they stated that they might be able to do that. It that turns out to be the case, it could save considerable money from not having to buy the aftermarket exhaust pipe. I think the telephone pole muffler will still have to go, in any case, though.
I always try to keep the costs down by any means possible, as long as I can deliver what's needed in the overall package.

So, we'll have to wait a while, to give these guys some time to work on the development processes. They have the green light and a budget, and if I have to increase the budget along the way, I will do that if it means getting a better result.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 22, 2012, 05:33:35 pm
Good news so far then :)  I'm glad to hear that there might be an option that retains the stock header which really helps keep cost down.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on May 22, 2012, 07:08:46 pm
Ace:
Being the lazy sort of guy I am, I will ask you a question.

Does the O2 sensor protrude very far into the gas path?

It's pretty obvious that the area where the O2 sensor is located gets much hotter than the exhaust pipe shortly upstream or downstream so I was thinking it might be quite a severe obstruction.

If it is, perhaps adding a spacer between the O2 sensor and the bung to move the tip back out of the way could improve the exhaust discharge a bit?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 22, 2012, 09:23:16 pm
Ace:
Being the lazy sort of guy I am, I will ask you a question.

Does the O2 sensor protrude very far into the gas path?

It's pretty obvious that the area where the O2 sensor is located gets much hotter than the exhaust pipe shortly upstream or downstream so I was thinking it might be quite a severe obstruction.

If it is, perhaps adding a spacer between the O2 sensor and the bung to move the tip back out of the way could improve the exhaust discharge a bit?

Arizoni,
My current answer is "I don't know".
I don't have the pipe here to put on the flow bench.
I suppose that is something that I'll have to measure.

However, moving the O2 sensor back out with a spacer WILL affect its readings. It is very sensitive to position.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GreenRE on May 22, 2012, 10:12:37 pm
I had a long meeting with the guys at Mondello's yesterday.
A variety of approaches were discussed, and I gave them a pretty good budget to do their development experiments with. My instructions were to get the best bang for the buck that they could get, and I didn't limit what they could do with it. Whatever would give the most, is the instruction, as long as it wouldn't put the final price out of range of the buyers.

I also stipulated that I'd like to be able to offer at least 2 "stages" of performance, so that people on a budget with modest performance improvements wouldn't be forced into a high price option.

One  of the biggest things to come out of the meeting was that they think they may be able to get enough flow improvement out of the exhaust port without moving it around, or enlarging it beyond what the stock pipe can take. This is still a conjecture, but they stated that they might be able to do that. It that turns out to be the case, it could save considerable money from not having to buy the aftermarket exhaust pipe. I think the telephone pole muffler will still have to go, in any case, though.
I always try to keep the costs down by any means possible, as long as I can deliver what's needed in the overall package.

So, we'll have to wait a while, to give these guys some time to work on the development processes. They have the green light and a budget, and if I have to increase the budget along the way, I will do that if it means getting a better result.

Awesome Ace !

If you could have one of each on the shelf to do an exchange/swap it would put F5's on the road much quicker.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on May 23, 2012, 07:58:57 am
Hi iron.head and welcome aboard.

Thank you Ice!

cool photos, what caused the abnormal wear ?  do both engines have approx the same history ?

Apologies gremlin-I am not sure of the reason of this wear. AFAIK it is due to poor running in.

Classic 500's sold in India do not have O2 sensor. Initial bikes suffered from missing/jerking/cold starts issue. RE issued a temporary solution in the form of higher heat range plugs and later Bosch Platinum Plus WR8DP plugs. Ultimately they have remapped all bikes with new maps which has fixed these issues and Platinum Plus is now provided in all C5's from the factory.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/a4oisw.jpg)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/xer5g5.jpg)

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2012, 11:33:09 am
Has anyone got a UCE head gasket laying around, and might be able to measure the thickness with a dial-caliper, so I can know the distance of the head from the barrel?
I just have the head only here right now.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on May 23, 2012, 02:31:29 pm
Has anyone got a UCE head gasket laying around, and might be able to measure the thickness with a dial-caliper, so I can know the distance of the head from the barrel?
I just have the head only here right now.

Hi ace.cafe

I would love to help and can go to RE ASC tomorrow or the day after and can ask them to show me a new UCE head gasket, but I do not have a dial-caliper. Is there any other commonly available instrument which can be used to measure the thickness? Can a ruler be used?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2012, 03:23:47 pm
Hi,
I suppose you could use anything that could read pretty accurately at that size.
It's probably thin enough that you'd have to use a ruler with very fine graduations.
I suspect it could be in the area of about 0.5mm-1.0mm.

Any vernier caliper could do it, or a micrometer, or a very finely graduated engineer's ruler. The more accurate the measurement, the better. But anything close is better than nothing.

If you have the time and inclination to try it, I'd appreciate the help for the cause!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on May 23, 2012, 03:51:35 pm
Head gasket is 1.0mm. 

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on May 23, 2012, 05:24:02 pm

I'm not happy with the engine management of mine ( 2011 B5 + O2 sensor (US 49 states))

I think it runs too rich on the highway ( 7/8 ~ 8/8 throttle ).    I'm *really* looking forward to the work ACE is doing here.  If we can get the throttle down to something like 70% when cruising at 75 MPH I believe the system will re-enter closed-loop mode and start reading the O2 sensor to trim the mixture.

IMO, YMMV,  standard disclaimers apply  ....   :o

Jim


Thank you Ice!

Apologies gremlin-I am not sure of the reason of this wear. AFAIK it is due to poor running in.

Classic 500's sold in India do not have O2 sensor. Initial bikes suffered from missing/jerking/cold starts issue. RE issued a temporary solution in the form of higher heat range plugs and later Bosch Platinum Plus WR8DP plugs. Ultimately they have remapped all bikes with new maps which have fixed these issues and Platinum Plus is now provided in all C5's from the factory.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/a4oisw.jpg)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/xer5g5.jpg)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2012, 05:52:32 pm
Head gasket is 1.0mm. 

Scott

Thanks you, Scott!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on June 12, 2012, 08:38:22 pm
Vroom .... Vroom .....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Fogrunner on June 17, 2012, 09:06:22 am
 I just received my 2012 G5 Classic here in the Philippines and I am waiting for some know-how on how to increase performance!! Looking forward to more!! Any updates or progress? Great read.
Phil
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 17, 2012, 01:35:15 pm
Phil?  From the Phillipines?  Really?  That is so cool!
Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: JVS on June 17, 2012, 01:39:26 pm
Scotland  :-X
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Fogrunner on June 17, 2012, 02:03:21 pm
Phil?  From the Phillipines?  Really?  That is so cool!
Scott
Yeah, I put the Phil in the Philippines!!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on June 17, 2012, 03:46:59 pm
Our main guy who does most of our work at Mondello's has been on vacation for the last 2 weeks, so not much happening until he gets back.

Basically, there will be a number of experiments to see how the head responds to various things, and then some decisions will be made about proceeding.
"Bang for the buck" will play a large part. There's always a sweet spot on the "diminishing returns" curve that we like to aim at.

One thing that looks potentially promising is that we may be able to use the Fireball valve spring system in this head, with some seemingly "minor" adjustments.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Kevin Mahoney on June 18, 2012, 07:38:55 am
I would not move the O2 sensor. It is placed where it is placed for scientific reasons and is very important. No amount of "mind grinding" is going to change that. I have had this discussion with the engineers from RE and Keihin. It is also placed so that it sheds the maximum amount of moisture which can contribute to failure.

Where did we get the idea that the bike is not in closed loop operation at higher speeds?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Chasfield on June 18, 2012, 11:46:35 am
I suppose it wouldn't lead to a legally saleable product but I would be fascinated to find out what a developed UCE motor would produce with a good quality flat slide carburetor bolted on and all the EFI gubbins stripped off.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Lwt Big Cheese on June 18, 2012, 11:56:13 am
Ride someones iron barrel.

 ::)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on June 18, 2012, 12:30:59 pm
I suppose it wouldn't lead to a legally saleable product but I would be fascinated to find out what a developed UCE motor would produce with a good quality flat slide carburetor bolted on and all the EFI gubbins stripped off.

Chasfield,
Really, the main improvement would be reaching higher revs than the EFI controller allows with it's rev-limiter. If the rev-limiter can be adjusted or overcome, and the mixture settings are able to be programmed, then the EFI can be a good option.
If not, then a good carb is a "work-around" plan.

I like carburetors, in fact. But if we could use the EFI system that is currently on there, and make it do the things we want it to do, then the overall package becomes less costly than changing to a carburetor.
I have my mind open to both possibilities.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on June 18, 2012, 06:06:03 pm
Where did we get the idea that the bike is not in closed loop operation at higher speeds?

From the abundance of soot no doubt !   :o
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on June 18, 2012, 07:48:44 pm
I suppose it wouldn't lead to a legally saleable product but I would be fascinated to find out what a developed UCE motor would produce with a good quality flat slide carburetor bolted on and all the EFI gubbins stripped off.

It should not be hard to do. The basic framework is available.

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/carburation-carburettors

"This kit comprises of a 32mm Amal MK1 Concentric carburettor and filter, ignition box, magneto flywheel and extractor, petrol tap and adaptor plate, spark plug and all necessary wiring, cables and gaskets etc. "
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on June 18, 2012, 08:21:15 pm
If taking the carb route than we can directly use wiring from Classic 350 which runs on a carb. We have open loop efi in our C5's in India as it does not have the oxygen sensor. A different mod for the ecu might be needed as current setup is open loop. I had a chat with a service person at RE and he told me that the con rod has been recently modified to strengthen it. Another forum member Randhawa told me that this mod was highly needed for C5 and that the new con rod is highly durable. The crank was also balanced last year to reduce the vibrations. Crank and con rod is available as a single part here and new one costs around Rs 9000.

Few more changes have been done which include new wiring harness which has better quality connectors, front disk brakes from brembo, etc.

RE has officially declined to sell the parts needed to convert open loop efi to closed loop in India. Conversion to carb/closed loop efi would have otherwise costed anywhere around Rs 15000/Rs 20000. Our bad luck!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on August 06, 2012, 11:26:29 pm
Any progress Ace?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 06, 2012, 11:56:46 pm
Unfortunately, no.

I'm stuck waiting for people to get to my project.
But I will update when I get some word.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: agram on September 11, 2012, 11:12:49 pm
According to at least one fellow at Hitchcocks I spoke to on the phone with last night, they're working to make a new Power Commander which can override the rev limiter AND access and adjust the timing. Apparently it's in testing, and it is more than just a software update (IE, will be a new box).

It was mentioned that the UCE timing has much room for improvement, and that the current crankshaft would probably be quite fine with another 1000 RPM. This seems right to me, although I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

I found that interesting. Have you heard anything of this? It seems that one of the bigger hurdles to the ACE UCE project might soon be a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on September 11, 2012, 11:22:14 pm
Agram, any admission from Hitchcock's about the PC problem reading the Enfield's RPM correctly?  It'd be nice to hear official word they know it's wonky.  The fact that they're building a whole new one may indicate that.

scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 12, 2012, 12:59:35 am
Any part of this project that is available from somebody else is something that I can use, and don't have to make.
I'm all in favor!

Bring it on!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on September 12, 2012, 05:54:53 pm
Any progress or are you still waiting for the shop to find some time?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 12, 2012, 10:36:58 pm
Any progress or are you still waiting for the shop to find some time?

Scott

There is a little bit of progress.
I'll be talking to the head of the shop tonight or tomorrow about the next steps.
Once we make some decisions on that stuff, I'll make a report.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 14, 2012, 01:33:42 am
Okay, well I wasn't able to get my discussion today with the shop, but we have had some email discussions.

Basically, we want to use the valve train parts that we use in the Fireball. Beehive springs, Fireball spring retainers, etc.
But it will need to use new valves which are appropriate for the UCE. These valves will be specified to have a slightly larger diameter head for the intake, like the Fireball, which will allow the port profile in the bowl which we want to have. The valve stems will be a length which we will specify to ensure that the  rocker/valve wipe geometry is correct, without any excessive side-thrust which might cause the early valve guide wear which has been seen in some UCE bikes. We will make sure this is correct in our modified heads, so that will not be a potential issue with our stuff.

We will address the valve lift issue. How we will actually do that is still undecided. Both cam and rocker modifications are under consideration. The final valve lift figure will depend on the port flow behavior at various valve lift heights.  Our valve spring configuration allows a max lift of up to .500", if we should desire to go that high.

The exhaust cam auto-decompressor will be retained to protect the sprag.

We will be making an oversize piston for this system. The bore size is yet undecided, but it will be at least one overbore size bigger than stock, so that we can bore/hone correctly for the new piston.  If we feel we need the bigger bore to load up the port demand higher for flow, we will size for that.
The piston crown will be set to achieve squish/quench with this chamber shape properly. Compression will "gingerly" be moved up as far as we can get it, while still keeping the ECU working for us without pinging.
The valve relief pockets in the crown will be deep enough to deal with whatever lift height we decide upon for the valves.

Hopefully the Power Commander bugs can be worked out, so we have some more freedom to move the rpm limits higher. We'll see how that comes along.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: wokka on September 14, 2012, 08:43:41 am
According to at least one fellow at Hitchcocks I spoke to on the phone with last night, they're working to make a new Power Commander which can override the rev limiter AND access and adjust the timing. Apparently it's in testing, and it is more than just a software update (IE, will be a new box).

It was mentioned that the UCE timing has much room for improvement, and that the current crankshaft would probably be quite fine with another 1000 RPM. This seems right to me, although I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

I found that interesting. Have you heard anything of this? It seems that one of the bigger hurdles to the ACE UCE project might soon be a thing of the past.

If this is the case, Wayne has been damn quiet about it in all of our discussions.

I hope they do the right thing and offer a swap to those of us that bought the current power commander paperweight
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 14, 2012, 01:23:21 pm
If this is the case, Wayne has been damn quiet about it in all of our discussions.

I hope they do the right thing and offer a swap to those of us that bought the current power commander paperweight

If it's safe to pull an extra thousand rpm out of this bottom end, then that's a pretty good amount of hp increase available there. I'm not sure I'd push it all the way to 6500rpm for a street bike, but 6000 might be nice. That's just ~10% more than stock. It's easier to hit the ton with a decent gearing when you can reach 6000.



Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on September 14, 2012, 09:30:13 pm
It's worth the wait. I ride an iron barrell with a fireball kit, and I can tell you it's done right. And thats very important.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 14, 2012, 09:39:39 pm
The Fireball kit took more than a year to get ready for the introduction.
I am certainly trying to get it done in the most timely manner possible. I want to see it out there as much as anybody.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on September 14, 2012, 10:08:36 pm
You know what they say, you can have it done fast, right, or cheap.  Pick two.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on October 12, 2012, 02:38:47 pm
Status?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on October 12, 2012, 02:42:43 pm
Status?

Still waiting for them to get it done.
I have made some of my own progress on some techniques to get some rocker ratio, while I have been waiting. It worked on my Iron Barrel prototype, so it will work for the UCE rockers, and now we'll be able to get some more lift out of it.
But the only progress has been what I have been able to accomplish myself, and I'm still waiting for the shop to get the port development done.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on October 12, 2012, 03:16:13 pm
Oh well :(  I guess we're getting out of race season and their time should free up soon.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on October 12, 2012, 05:49:26 pm
If you were looking for a whole UCE engine to do testing on, HobbyDad just totalled his ride.  I think he was going to call it and just take the check but the buyback was only $700.  You might want to drop him a line if you'd like a whole engine to play with.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on October 12, 2012, 08:18:58 pm
Speaking of getting more lift from the rocker design...

Which of the mods you're doing would require an EFI re-map, and which could go with the map as it is?  Just curious since the PC3 is everyone's favorite tool for that job and the one for the UCE seems to be stuck with that RPM spiking problem.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on October 12, 2012, 10:03:49 pm
Speaking of getting more lift from the rocker design...

Which of the mods you're doing would require an EFI re-map, and which could go with the map as it is?  Just curious since the PC3 is everyone's favorite tool for that job and the one for the UCE seems to be stuck with that RPM spiking problem.

Scott

We don't know.
We'll find out when we fire it up. The flexibility of the RE EFI is unknown to me, and the actual fuel/air efficiency of this engine change is unknown as of yet. After we did the Fireball, the efficiency of fuel usage was so much better that we had to go leaner on the jetting. So, there is some hope that it will still fall in the range of what the EFI can handle, but use the fuel to better efficient power-making.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on October 12, 2012, 10:53:25 pm
Thanks.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 12:19:30 pm
Okay, we have movement, finally!

We now have a baseline flow chart for the UCE head with standard valves in it, just like is in all your bikes. That's the good news.
The bad news is that it flows pretty much exactly like the Iron Barrel head does, except the UCE has smaller valves.
Basically, the flow differences could almost be considered small enough to call it about the same as the stock Iron Barrel head in terms of actual supply to the engine. There are some design differences, but the outcome is about the same, which we suspected. Some notable observations are that the UCE head definitely flows better at the very low valve lifts, but not quite as good at .300" lift, which is about the lift height for both stock engines on the intake.
For reference purposes, the Iron Barrel max flow at .300" lift is 143 cfm, and the UCE max flow in the same conditions is 136 cfm. Pretty close. The flow at just .050" valve lift, just as it's opening up, is 28.7 cfm for the stock Iron Barrel, and 35 cfm for the UCE, which is a good bit better(percentage-wise) at the lowest lift. But not much flow takes place at such a low lift, so it isn't really giving it much of a boost there, but every little bit helps some.
In terms of average flow over the entire lift range, the stock UCE flows 94 cfm average, and the stock Iron Barrel flows 92.1 cfm average. For all intents and purposes, a virtual tie.

So, the next step was to make a try at improving what was already there, with the same valves and lifts. This yielded some improvement of about 17% in max flow. Now, the intake flows 159 cfm at .300" lift. Average flow goes up a couple of percent. This is still not great. But it's better. And if somebody wanted just that alone, we could give them that right now.
There are some issues with the port bowl shape which need to be addressed to get better flow. I will be discussing this with them tonight.

The goals that I have in mind are to get the UCE intake flowing as close to the Fireball head as I can. And I want to treat the UCE exhaust as its own special case, because it has some potential to get some exhaust results that we just couldn't get with the large exhaust port in the Fireball.
The Fireball head flows 182.4 cfm at .300" lift. I'm using .300" lift as the reference height because that's what the UCE intake valve lift is with the stock system. To increase lift higher would mean cams or rockers, and possibly a piston to match, so that there is clearance on the piston for the increased valve lift at TDC. I plan to seriously try to get into doing that too, but this initial discussion is comparing things to the stock arrangement. With higher lift, we could substantially increase the max flow AND the average flow, so we'd like to go there to the extent that it is feasible to do.

So, we have a basic initial look at what we have to work with, and how it compares against a stock Iron Barrel head, and a goal of trying to come as close to the Fireball head as we can.
The heads are fairly similar in layout, and a lot of the things we do with the Fireball can work on these UCE heads.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 19, 2012, 06:55:05 pm
Great news that thigns are moving forward!  Any thoughts on whether there is a possibility of using the stock EFI or will it most likely need to be modified?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 09:33:46 pm
Well Scott, the stock EFI stuff will bolt up on it.
Whether the stock EFI map has enough latitude to auto-adjust the mixture for it by the O2 sensor readings is up to the EFI controller.

I don't know anyone anywhere who has that answer. This ECU is a black box that nobody has any answers about, and the RE factory isn't talking. Hitchcock's can't seem to make the Power Commander work right. It's all a big mystery.

When we get to a good stage of completion for testing the stuff, we'll have to put it on a dyno and see what the Air/Fuel curve looks like.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 19, 2012, 09:47:02 pm
Thanks :) 

Do we even know for sure that this is a "learning" ECU, that is, over time will it adjust it's base map?  I thought those types of ECU were fairly expensive and figured we had a more economical fixed base map type.  What I mean by that is the base map is fixed at the factory and does not change.  When the engine is running at steady state it uses the O2 sensor and cycles between lean and rich, when it's  acceleration, decelerating, or the throttle angle is changing it read the map and uses that information.  I know some people have said it seems to learn over time when they add a new exhaust but I've changed the exhaust and never noticed any difference or changes over time.

I'm pretty sure the IDM is remappable, as many people who had the early map and had problems had them remapped by technicians with a PC.  They were very secrective, took things into another room then brought them back much improved.  I've read a few accounts like this from Indian owners.  If so we may at least be able to remap the base map of the export ECU.

In the last few years some outside people have cracked the Magnetti Marelli ECUs that Ducati use.  They first figured out how to disable the immobilizer that would go wonky and kill a bike, then later figured how to get to and alter the EFI map.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 09:56:41 pm
Thanks :) 

Do we even know for sure that this is a "learning" ECU, that is, over time will it adjust it's base map?  I thought those types of ECU were fairly expensive and figured we had a more economical fixed base map type.  What I mean by that is the base map is fixed at the factory and does not change.  When the engine is running at steady state it uses the O2 sensor and cycles between lean and rich, when it's  acceleration, decelerating, or the throttle angle is changing it read the map and uses that information.  I know some people have said it seems to learn over time when they add a new exhaust but I've changed the exhaust and never noticed any difference or changes over time.

I'm pretty sure the IDM is remappable, as many people who had the early map and had problems had them remapped by technicians with a PC.  They were very secrective, took things into another room then brought them back much improved.  I've read a few accounts like this from Indian owners.  If so we may at least be able to remap the base map of the export ECU.

In the last few years some outside people have cracked the Magnetti Marelli ECUs that Ducati use.  They first figured out how to disable the immobilizer that would go wonky and kill a bike, then later figured how to get to and alter the EFI map.

Scott

I don't know.
As far as I understand, the 02 sensor detects rich or lean, and corrects the mixture to suit.
If it will do that, and has some latitude, we have a good shot at it.
It has to have some latitude for richer, to handle cold weather.
We just have to see. I really don't have an answer for the EFI until I see exactly what it fails to do, in terms of what I need.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 19, 2012, 10:04:38 pm
Thanks again :)  I suspect this is a "dumb" ECU, and cold temps and atmospheric pressure changes are accounted for by applying a simple factor to the entire map.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 10:17:42 pm
Thanks again :)  I suspect this is a "dumb" ECU, and cold temps and atmospheric pressure changes are accounted for by applying a simple factor to the entire map.

Scott

Well, I plan to take things a step at a time.
If the ECU turns out to be an unworkable stumbling block, then we can run a carb.
If I can figure out a good way to work with the ECU, then I can use it.
I'm open to all the possibilities.

Right now, I am working on making this head flow.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on November 19, 2012, 10:26:59 pm
Like you say, the ECU has the ability to adjust the fuel/air ratio towards the rich side to accommodate cold weather riding.
I'm not sure which sensor it is using but I would guess it is the oil temperature sensor located under the intake valves inlet port.  (This is directly into the oil supply to the rocker arms).

The sensor should give the following readings:
-20* C (-4* F) = 18.8 kilo ohms
+40* C (104* F) = 1.136 kilo ohms
+100* C (212 *F) = 0.1553 kilo ohms

By tweaking the resistance output between the sensor and the CPU, the unit might be fooled into thinking a richer fuel/air ratio was needed thus more power could be obtained.

This might even be a switchable addition so when just puttin' around the correct temperature reading would be sent to the ECU and if more power was wanted the unit could be engaged by flipping a switch?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 10:33:19 pm
Like you say, the ECU has the ability to adjust the fuel/air ratio towards the rich side to accommodate cold weather riding.
I'm not sure which sensor it is using but I would guess it is the oil temperature sensor located under the intake valves inlet port.  (This is directly into the oil supply to the rocker arms).

The sensor should give the following readings:
-20* C (-4* F) = 18.8 kilo ohms
+40* C (104* F) = 1.136 kilo ohms
+100* C (212 *F) = 0.1553 kilo ohms

By tweaking the resistance output between the sensor and the CPU, the unit might be fooled into thinking a richer fuel/air ratio was needed thus more power could be obtained.

This might even be a switchable addition so when just puttin' around the correct temperature reading would be sent to the ECU and if more power was wanted the unit could be engaged by flipping a switch?

There's a thought that might come in handy!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project. (Racedynamics)
Post by: 1 Thump on November 19, 2012, 10:35:51 pm
An ECU form Racedynamics was discussed a while back and has now been released, at least the website says so.

http://racedynamics.in/products/powertronic
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 19, 2012, 10:43:30 pm
I'm also guessing it's the oil temp sensor that does that, but just pushing everything up all across the map is a very crude and inaccurate way of adjusting the map.  It might "work" but you'd very likely have some spots too lean and others too rich.  If you're going to do it, do it right. ;)

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project. (Racedynamics)
Post by: ace.cafe on November 19, 2012, 10:59:00 pm
An ECU form Racedynamics was discussed a while back and has now been released, at least the website says so.

http://racedynamics.in/products/powertronic

I just sent them another email inquiry.

I have sent them six email inquiries prior to this, over the last year or so.
Maybe they will respond to this one, if I'm lucky.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on November 20, 2012, 12:11:51 am
I would call them. They have a phone number listed. They are in B'lore, pretty sure they speak English.

Or, call one of their many suppliers: http://racedynamics.in/where-to-buy
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on November 20, 2012, 01:05:43 pm
............  If you're going to do it, do it right. ;)  ..........

+1
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 20, 2012, 01:18:42 pm
Long conversation last night about the project.
"Goldilocks and 3 Bears" concept, not too hot, not too cold, just right.

Some basics were that we'd try to do a very good "bang for the buck" porting job and valve job, without resorting to expensive heroic modifications.
There will be some slight amount of port filler(epoxy) used to correct the port bowl deformities.
Some unique valve seat angles have been developed to assist the flow, and this has so far added a pretty good amount of flow.

We ARE going to get those valves opened up a little further. We're looking at the 2 basic methods by which we can do that, and we'll see what shakes out. We are sending the cams in to be put on the Cam Doctor and analyzed, and then we'll see about doing something with them. We are lucky on this particular job to have a legendary cam grinder who is willing to look at this for us, and possibly do a grind.

We will be pursuing the 535cc route with a new piston, and doing as much as possible with the new piston to improve everything we can with it.

The big "IF" is all around the ECU for the EFI and the rev-limiter. This is the fly in the ointment.
I'm looking at ways to get into that thing, but if it is too difficult, I'm not ruling out a move to a carburetor.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on November 27, 2012, 05:01:21 am
Hi ace.cafe

I just spoke to Chetan at RaceDynamics regarding the ECU for UCE500. He said that they are currently selling the unlocked one and it's readily available. He can be contacted on +91 80 40929292 and chetan@racedynamics.in

I have forwarded him the links to this thread if he can give us a reply here.

Some info about their ECU is available on this link:

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/motorcycle-performance-parts/racedynamics-50054/ (http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/motorcycle-performance-parts/racedynamics-50054/)

Hope that we see some good development here!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Jack Leis on November 27, 2012, 06:07:21 am
I want one !
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 27, 2012, 09:05:24 am
From the site:
"Why has RaceDynamics not come up with a performance boosting ECU for the Royal Enfield Classic 500 like a better top end speed and overall power gain?

First of all, the aim of the RaceDynamics stock replacement ECU is to increase the riding pleasure for the rider of the Classic 500 by eliminating the various glitches the stock ECU has been plagued with.

Secondly, many Royal Enfield Classic 500 have reported violent fishtailing of the motorcycle at speeds exceeding 100 Kph. So, in the interest of our customers’ own safety, we have not programmed the ECU for better top end speed and more power although such potential does exist with the Classic 500′s UCE engine."

Sounds like they haven't raised the redline and don't intend to.  Though they make one that will map to a free flow exhaust and is totally programmable with a laptop.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on November 27, 2012, 09:31:40 am
RaceDyncamics is currently selling only one ECU for UCE500 which is unlocked, as they call it. This ECU can be connected to a PC to be programmed.

As far as I can understand, they had plans to launch 2 different ECU. One which is unlocked and can be programmed and the other one which is locked. In this link another ECU has been described which is meant to work with export UCE500 which comes with an O2 sensor. I don't know if they are currently selling the export model, or if the current one can be made to work with export UCE500 by programming it accordingly.

Chetan can be contacted for more information. I have posted his contact details above.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on November 27, 2012, 09:44:45 am
Had a telephonic chat with Chetan at RaceDynamics. He said that the locked version of the ECU(which does not work with the O2 sensor) will be available in some time. Currently the unlocked version is available. He also said that they need ECU pin configuration and other details to launch the ECU which works with O2 sensor and that they will launch one if they receive mass orders.

Also, they will need an O2 sensor, exhaust and wiring for to work on the export model ECU which will most probably have to be sourced from abroad as RE doesn't sell them in India.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 11:05:50 am
Had a telephonic chat with Chetan at RaceDynamics. He said that the locked version of the ECU(which does not work with the O2 sensor) will be available in some time. Currently the unlocked version is available. He also said that they need ECU pin configuration and other details to launch the ECU which works with O2 sensor and that they will launch one if they receive mass orders.

Also, they will need an O2 sensor, exhaust and wiring for to work on the export model ECU which will most probably have to be sourced from abroad as RE doesn't sell them in India.

Hi iron.head.
Thank you for contacting them and getting this info.
Amazingly, when I woke up this morning, I had an email from them in my mailbox.
This is probably due to your discussion with them, and I thank you again for that!

Anyway, we are going to pursue something with them and their programmable ECU for the UCE engine. And we have a bike with the export equipment on it here, and can provide them with any info, pictures, or even parts, that they might need to get us the unit we want. O2 sensor version, and also non-O2 sensor version.

I will respond to them today by opening the conversation of what we have planned here in the US for the higher power UCE bikes, and hopefully can begin to move in that direction with them.

This is good news!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on November 27, 2012, 12:19:24 pm
Hi ace.cafe

Happy to be of help! Hope that we can get the UCE500 kit for our Indian bikes too given that we don't have the O2 sensor.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 12:27:13 pm
Hi ace.cafe

Happy to be of help! Hope that we can get the UCE500 kit for our Indian bikes too given that we don't have the O2 sensor.

Cheers!

My hope is to be able to do both types.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on November 27, 2012, 01:39:17 pm
*IF* we are going to "roll our own" with an unlocked ECM.

I recommend moving to THE standard controller -->

http://www.microsquirt.info/

There is a whole community already built up around this system, from the days of B&G's Mega-squirt D-I-Y project.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 01:53:50 pm
*IF* we are going to "roll our own" with an unlocked ECM.

I recommend moving to THE standard controller -->

http://www.microsquirt.info/

There is a whole community already built up around this system, from the days of B&G's Mega-squirt D-I-Y project.

It's interesting, but from my reading about it, it requires the removal of all the sensors off of the UCE engine, and using a new set of Microsquirt-compatible sensors. Not a trivial matter if the UCE is not using GM sensors. And I suspect it is not using GM sensors.
If I had to do it without any other alternative, that's one thing.
But if I can leave all the factory sensors and wiring intact, and swap in a new controller that will just plug right in and be programmable by PC, I'd prefer that.
And I suspect consumers would prefer that too.
Also, the Megasquirt controller is not any less expensive, and any sensor changes would add to the price too. And we'd have to program maps from scratch.

I'm not ruling the MS out, but I want to pursue this RD avenue to see if it's as feasible and low-cost as it appears to be.
My aims are for best overall performance with most reasonable cost and easiest installation.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on November 27, 2012, 05:11:05 pm
From the site:
"Why has RaceDynamics not come up with a performance boosting ECU for the Royal Enfield Classic 500 like a better top end speed and overall power gain?

First of all, the aim of the RaceDynamics stock replacement ECU is to increase the riding pleasure for the rider of the Classic 500 by eliminating the various glitches the stock ECU has been plagued with.

Secondly, many Royal Enfield Classic 500 have reported violent fishtailing of the motorcycle at speeds exceeding 100 Kph. So, in the interest of our customers’ own safety, we have not programmed the ECU for better top end speed and more power although such potential does exist with the Classic 500′s UCE engine."

Sounds like they haven't raised the redline and don't intend to.  Though they make one that will map to a free flow exhaust and is totally programmable with a laptop.

Scott

Really?  "Violent fishtailing" over 62 miles per hour?  I must be doing something wrong...
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on November 27, 2012, 06:00:09 pm
I showed 91 on my speedo the other day on a grooved interstate on my G5. Its slight weave started to intensify as I approached top speed and I had to grip the bars a bit to stop it. I as probably actually doing 82 or so, but it was a long way from "violent fishtailing."
However, the wheels must've thought they were doing 91. Smaller diameter Pirelli 90/90-19 tire.
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 06:10:03 pm
I seem to recall a year or two ago when this was a subject of much discussion here on this forum.
The C5 models were exhibiting this behavior, although it might be a matter of opinion about how "violent" it was.
Here's one thread about it.
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,8325.0.html

We now see that the latest models are coming with the 19" front wheel and they have changed the fork sliders away from leading-axle to regular ones. I suspect that is a change which was precipitated by the stability observations in the early C5 models.

So, while it may be thought to be a matter of degree about this observed behavior, there does seem to be something behind it, specifically regarding the early C5 models.

It's also relevant to recognize that 60+mph is considered to be quite a blazing speed on Indian roads. It's very different than here.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on November 27, 2012, 06:13:52 pm
My 2012 C5(C5 special in the US) starts weaving right after reaching 115 km/h from the initial months of purchase. My bike has improved swing arm bushes/some bush mounting and new design front forks offset. The weaving intensifies to a very scary level when it reaches 125 km/h. Only once till date I was able to touch 125 km/h with no weaving at all, and that happened because the tyre pressure was low. Usually I maintain 22/32 psi. Lot of people have reported this figure of 115 km/h, right after which instability steps in. Maintaining low tyre pressure is a simple remedy, though replacing the nylon swing arm bushes with metallic ones might be the proper fix. G5/B5 is said to have a different frame/swing-arm design and I said to be free from this high speed instability issue.

Though some people have reported that replacing the stock hard compound tyres with expensive soft compound ones also cures this weaving issue.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on November 27, 2012, 06:30:59 pm
Noooooo!!!!! Not another "wobbly C5" thread!  Noooooo!!!!!

Seriously though, take it to another thread.  I'd like to at least keep this one on topic.  And if you have a wobbly C5 send me a PM and I'll do all I can to get you sorted.

Scott :(
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 08:14:08 pm
Don't worry.
They aren't limiting what we're going to do with it. That was just for the India Home Market bikes that don't have the O2 sensor, and the factory map wasn't well sorted and had problems with being too rich, and not running real well. They aimed to cure those problems for the home market UCE with a new ECU and new program.

What we will be doing is a whole other ball game. We will be raising the rev limiter and changing all the parameters via the programming interface, so it will do what we want it to do, in concert with our modified engine power kit
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on November 27, 2012, 10:06:35 pm
The " Royal Enfield Classic 500"  is the Indian domestic market name for the C5.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on November 27, 2012, 10:13:33 pm
I can understand their initial logic in aiming their product at fixing the original Indian marketed ECU's which did have errors in it.

Royal Enfield has fixed that problem and will update  every RE sold in that country for free.  The owner only has to take his EFI RE into his dealer when a company engineer with the computer and attachment cable is there.

That said, it would seem there isn't a market for this new ECU unless the maker changes the goal to offering a way to increase power.

I understand the makers logic in not wanting to produce something that can harm people but he should face the fact that riding any motorcycle can be dangerous and it should be up to the rider, not the maker of aftermarket parts to determine where the limits are.

Belonging to a Indian web site that often discusses Royal Enfields as I do, I can vouch for the desire of many riders in that Country who wish for more power from their bikes.

Many are finding that simply changing the air filter and exhaust doesn't improve the bikes performance greatly and in some cases decreases it.
They are looking for other ways of gaining power and his product could give it to them if he only agrees to change his tactics and goal.

If he were to do this, his product would be a great success both in his Country and World wide.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2012, 10:28:57 pm
I can understand their initial logic in aiming their product at fixing the original Indian marketed ECU's which did have errors in it.

Royal Enfield has fixed that problem and will update  every RE sold in that country for free.  The owner only has to take his EFI RE into his dealer when a company engineer with the computer and attachment cable is there.

That said, it would seem there isn't a market for this new ECU unless the maker changes the goal to offering a way to increase power.

I understand the makers logic in not wanting to produce something that can harm people but he should face the fact that riding any motorcycle can be dangerous and it should be up to the rider, not the maker of aftermarket parts to determine where the limits are.

Belonging to a Indian web site that often discusses Royal Enfields as I do, I can vouch for the desire of many riders in that Country who wish for more power from their bikes.

Many are finding that simply changing the air filter and exhaust doesn't improve the bikes performance greatly and in some cases decreases it.
They are looking for other ways of gaining power and his product could give it to them if he only agrees to change his tactics and goal.

If he were to do this, his product would be a great success both in his Country and World wide.

Exactly.
And that is what we plan to be making, using this ECU platform as a basis.
We have already opened the dialogue with them to work together with us on this project for Ace.

This ECU thing was the last key that needed to be turned.
We can do anything with the engine that we want to do.
It was this electronic black box that needed cracking.
Once we have that in our hands, with a programmable capacity, we can provide a variety of results for different levels of mods, from stock on up.
It will require a lot of dyno time for us to make up these programs, but it's all possible.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on November 27, 2012, 11:27:14 pm
Really?  "Violent fishtailing" over 62 miles per hour?  I must be doing something wrong...

+3
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: BRADEY on November 28, 2012, 05:48:27 am
Guys you could completely do away with this ECU thing. Many people in India are converting their UCE 500s to carbed version, using a Ucal 32/33 CV carbs.

This calls for a change in stator, rotor, wiring, TCI ignition and coils, all of these can be borrowed from the younger sibling of C5,  the Classic 350 (except for the carb). And thus you could play around with all kind of jetting etc..............here is the thread
http://www.bcmtouring.com/forum/motorcycles-f13/classic-500efi-modifications-maintenance-t26074-13/
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 28, 2012, 12:01:01 pm
Guys you could completely do away with this ECU thing. Many people in India are converting their UCE 500s to carbed version, using a Ucal 32/33 CV carbs.

This calls for a change in stator, rotor, wiring, TCI ignition and coils, all of these can be borrowed from the younger sibling of C5,  the Classic 350 (except for the carb). And thus you could play around with all kind of jetting etc..............here is the thread
http://www.bcmtouring.com/forum/motorcycles-f13/classic-500efi-modifications-maintenance-t26074-13/

Hi Bradey,
Yes, that option is always on the table.

What I'm trying to accomplish with this, if we can, is to get a simple plug-in modification that fits right into the existing bike with the same connector plug, and work with everything that is already there, and do what we want.
That would be the top preference. If we can't get exactly that, we can begin to work our way down the preference scale.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on December 09, 2012, 11:45:48 pm
Tom
Are you planning on ratio rockers for the UCE, or is that exclusively for the fireball kit.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 10, 2012, 11:32:08 am
Tom
Are you planning on ratio rockers for the UCE, or is that exclusively for the fireball kit.

I definitely have it in mind.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Chiefharlock on December 10, 2012, 09:12:02 pm
ACE, are you guys looking at using the same 535 barel and piston set up that Hitchcocks has for sale in their catalogue/ website?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 10, 2012, 10:42:49 pm
ACE, are you guys looking at using the same 535 barel and piston set up that Hitchcocks has for sale in their catalogue/ website?
Chief,
No, we'll be making our own piston, and boring the barrels to suit.

However, there is some chance that the Hitchcock's stuff might still be compatible. I just don't know yet because we haven't completed the project yet, and the valve timing and valve lift will affect the piston design. And there could be some chamber mods or squish/quench mods that will dictate some things about the piston.
So, we have to wait and see when we get closer to finishing up this project.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on January 21, 2013, 08:27:15 pm
Just thinking out loud here. Can an electrically driven supercharger find its way inside an Ace air can. No belts, discreet, just enough boost, nothing crazy. 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on January 21, 2013, 10:55:03 pm
Just thinking out loud here. Can an electrically driven supercharger find its way inside an Ace air can. No belts, discreet, just enough boost, nothing crazy.

I suppose if Peugeot can supercharge a 125cc scooter ...
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_0509_peugeot_jet_force_125_compressor/
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 08, 2013, 02:33:40 am
UCE head is almost finished development.
Ace valve gear installed.
Rocker work still to come.
Piston comes after that.

Details as they come in.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: b.sheets on February 08, 2013, 03:49:13 am
UCE head is almost finished development.
Ace valve gear installed.
Rocker work still to come.
Piston comes after that.

Details as they come in.

whats the price range looking like for this?
I think I remember you saying something about making it available in stages.
what kind of price scale are you thinking? just trying to plan out my next few bike purchases in the hundreds of dollars price range.
thanks ace
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 08, 2013, 09:50:21 am
whats the price range looking like for this?
I think I remember you saying something about making it available in stages.
what kind of price scale are you thinking? just trying to plan out my next few bike purchases in the hundreds of dollars price range.
thanks ace

I have not worked out any prices yet.
I'm aiming to make it as affordable as I can.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 08, 2013, 05:55:06 pm
So will this be usable now with the rest of the bike stock or is this just the first step and now we get into the fuel mapping, etc.?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 08, 2013, 06:35:11 pm
So will this be usable now with the rest of the bike stock or is this just the first step and now we get into the fuel mapping, etc.?

Scott

Hi Scott,
What we have now will be usable with the stock bike.
However, it will not be optimized, because the flow curve favors more lift of the valves to get what the porting job gives. But if a person wanted to put it on the bike the way it is now, it would still give some improvement. It's just that the cams are so low lift that they just can't get the valves open enough to get good flow.
I would suspect that if the ported head was used the way it is, with stock valve lift, the stock ECU would have a good chance at being able to adjust for its needs automatically. But I  think it would give only a mild power boost to do that.

So, the next step is to get some valve lift.
And then a 535 piston for more bore, crown clearance for higher valve lift, and establishing a proper squish distance.
And then the performance ECU.

We have plans for each of these subsequent steps.

The best news that I got is that it appears that this mod should be quite affordable, and includes our Ace valve gear with the beehive springs.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 08, 2013, 06:42:33 pm
Thanks Ace.  Glad to hear it's both affordable and scaleable.  I'm guessing this will be the base step for all future UCE hot rodding.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: rep_movsd on February 08, 2013, 07:32:58 pm
Just thinking out loud here. Can an electrically driven supercharger find its way inside an Ace air can. No belts, discreet, just enough boost, nothing crazy.

There are a couple of people who have tried this and I'm sure it can be made to work but pump gas is not going to cut it - Supercharging means you have too much dynamic compression.

I had a different idea - have a super charger, but only run it at the bottom 2000 RPM or so.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GlennF on February 10, 2013, 10:51:02 pm
There are a couple of people who have tried this and I'm sure it can be made to work but pump gas is not going to cut it - Supercharging means you have too much dynamic compression.

I had a different idea - have a super charger, but only run it at the bottom 2000 RPM or so.

You better do something about the serious lack of oil pressure at low revs if you try that.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 11, 2013, 06:29:02 pm
I am expecting/hoping to have some photos and data on the UCE head project by later tonight.
I talked to the shop today, and they said they would try to get the pics and flow chart out to me tonight, if they can get to it.
If not tonight, then I'll post it as soon as they send it to me.

Basically, the head is done, and the special custom valves have been ordered, and we will have to wait for them to come in before we can do any heads.

The exhaust port has been raised and enlarged to some degree at the exit, and so it will need the aftermarket exhaust systems that have the full diameter pipe without the reducer. We will be working on our own pipe too.

The other necessary pieces in the puzzle such as piston, etc, are still underway. Progress is being made.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on February 11, 2013, 08:52:27 pm
Tom
DandD recently made custom pipes and exhausts for RE.

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,15069.0/all.html
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2013, 04:48:00 pm
Okay, while I'm waiting for the data and pics of the UCE head to get sent to me, let's have a comparison of the stock head flow of "old vs new".

The flow data for the stock Iron Barrel head:
CFM flow @ 28" water column
@ .050" lift = 28.7
@ .100" lift = 53.2
@ .150" lift = 83.8
@ .200" lift = 111.7
@ .250" lift = 132.3
@ .300" lift = 143.0
Average flow = 92.1 avg cfm flow

Flow data for stock UCE head.
CFM flow @ 28" water column.
@ .050" lift = 35.9
@ .100" lift = 65.338
@ .150" lift = 89.09
@ .200" lift = 111.74
@ .250" lift = 125.64
@ .300" lift = 135.9
Average flow = 93.93 avg cfm flow

The stock UCE head has a very slight flow advantage of 1.83 cfm.
This flow difference is nearly nothing, and it could be said that they are basically even within their factory lift ranges.

For purposes of investigation about how the ports would respond to higher than factory lifts, we flowed these ports up to .400" lift.

Iron Barrel:
@ .350" lift = 151.1 cfm
@ .400" lift = 154.6 cfm

UCE:
@ .350" lift = 141 cfm
@ .400" lift = 142.5 cfm

In this comparison, it appears evident that the Iron Barrel would respond more to higher lift than the UCE. Just as it did at lifts higher than .200", where they were about equal flow. Because the Iron Barrel engine has a hemi chamber, it suffers less from flow interference by the combustion chamber walls. We aimed to improve this situation in the work which was done to the UCE head, so it would respond more to the higher lifts which we have planned for it.

We are primarily interested in the intake flow amounts here, because the exhaust goes out mostly under pressure when the exhaust valve opens and has significant help to get it out of the cylinder. The intake flow is the area of main concern.

When we get some data in on the modified/ported UCE head flow, I will post that and compare against the stock flow, so we can see what was accomplished.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on February 12, 2013, 06:06:14 pm
FWIW, Hitchcocks online catalog (page 92) now claims that they have put in more work on the power commander and seemingly ironed out the bugs, and it comes with a 20% power increase.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2013, 06:26:51 pm
FWIW, Hitchcocks online catalog (page 92) now claims that they have put in more work on the power commander and seemingly ironed out the bugs, and it comes with a 20% power increase.

Interesting.
I'll be watching to see what actual users say about it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 12, 2013, 06:33:19 pm
Yes, interesting.  I wonder if they've solved the RPM problem.  The PCs were reporting wildly swinging RPMs while the engine was running steady.  If so, that's some very good news for everyone.  A free flow air cleaner, exhaust, and a PC are the go-to first steps in hot rodding almost any EFI bike.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on February 12, 2013, 07:03:53 pm
The attached dyno chart did not show the wild rpm oscillations that Wokka had reported. Someone should call them. They usually stand behind their product.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2013, 07:21:39 pm
FWIW, Hitchcocks online catalog (page 92) now claims that they have put in more work on the power commander and seemingly ironed out the bugs, and it comes with a 20% power increase.

Okay, regarding this "20% hp increase", let's have a look at that a little closer.
They say in the ad that "Dyno figures show that we have gained approximately 20% increase in BHP at the rear wheel coupled with a smoother power curve by using a different air filter and silencer."

This means that it is NOT the Power Commander alone doing this. In fact, the vast majority of the gains are from the free-flowing filter and exhaust, with the Power Commander doing the equivalent of the re-jetting that we would do on a carb equipped Bullet.

There is only one ignition setting and mixture setting that is correct for any particular engine condition and speed. Anything other than that will lose power and efficiency.
A change in electronic controller can only make more power if the existing/previous controller had been tuned poorly enough to be losing that  amount of power, and then the new controller can gain back what was lost by the poorly tuned controller.

The facts are that the only way to really increase power beyond what the proper mixture setting and ignition setting allows with the stock system is to increase the amount of air entering the engine, and then adding the proper amount of more fuel to that air to make the best power mixture for the higher amount of air. The free-flow filter and silencer can have some of this effect of improving the breathing. But only to the extent that the breathing capacity of the engine allows for flow.

And this is where we come into the equation. We get more air into the engine. Air is the hardest part of the mixture to get into the engine, because we have to get a LOT of it in there in an extremely short time period of each cycle, while the fuel is easily squirted in in a small amount. It's the air that's tough to get enough of, and without more air, it doesn't do any good to put more fuel in.

So, you have to take these marketing claims of "more hp" with a grain of salt, really. They might give more power, but they can only gain back whatever poor tuning lost with the factory tuned ECU. Or, by adjusting the mixture for the added air flow that the free-flow stuff provided. Just like we would do manually with our carburetor on the Iron Barrel bike.
It's getting more air into the engine, and then getting the A/F ratio set right for that larger amount of air volume that actually makes more power. And this is why we work so hard on the heads, and make such a big issue out of the cfm air flow rates of these ports, etc. It's not just some esoteric issue. It is the very heart of making more power, and that's what we do.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on February 12, 2013, 07:37:44 pm
So, you have to take these marketing claims of "more hp" with a grain of salt, really. They might give more power, but they can only gain back whatever poor tuning lost with the factory tuned ECU. Or, adjusting the mixture for the added air flow that the free-flow stuff provided. It's getting more air into the engine, and then getting the A/F ratio set right for that larger amount of air volume that actually makes more power.

Ok, so maybe this has been addressed already, but...

Just how poorly tuned are our factory ECU's?  If the 20% gain is due to the Power Commander, the filter, and the silencer, then how much is due to the PC alone?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 12, 2013, 07:43:39 pm
+1 Ace!  The D&D exhaust also includes a free flow air filter.  Without better breathing all around the PC really wouldn't do too much.  I've seen a few of the maps they have for totally stock bikes.  They really add or remove just a teeny bit here and there which smooths things out.  I'd say the corrections they're making are largely the result of individual engine variances compared to the standard EFI map.  Most EFI bikes are mapped very well these days excepting the lower crusing RPMs where EPA and other emissions regulations often have them running lean.  This makes for cleaner emissions but less than optimal performance.  In these ranges you don't generally get a huge blast of extra power, just a smoother and better behaved engine.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on February 13, 2013, 06:59:11 am
let's have a comparison of the stock head flow of "old vs new".

The flow data for the stock Iron Barrel head:
CFM flow @ 28" water column
@ .050" lift = 28.7
@ .100" lift = 53.2
@ .150" lift = 83.8


Flow data for stock UCE head.
CFM flow @ 28" water column.
@ .050" lift = 35.9
@ .100" lift = 65.338
@ .150" lift = 89.09


In this comparison, it appears evident that the Iron Barrel would respond more to higher lift than the UCE.......

........the UCE head, so it would respond more to the higher lifts which we have planned for it......

I like that the UCE flows significantly better at lower opening than the Iron Barrel - it holds promise that a wider cam lobe (less slope) can perform better than a radically steep lobe.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 13, 2013, 11:55:43 am
That's a very good observation!

The cam on the UCE is not a very radical one, and seems to be designed mostly around wideband torque production and emission control.

However, it does have the auto decompressor mechanism inside the exhaust cam, and that really complicates making other cams for it, because we want to retain the auto-decomp system so as to not endanger the starter sprag. We have a strategy in mind.

Regarding the low lift flow, this will most likely see some change with the ported head, but hopefully not too much change. When optimizing valve seat angles for most flow, sometimes the flow at lowest lifts(where least flow occurs) get a little cut, in favor of more flow at the higher lifts where most flow occurs. We'll just have to see how this pans out. I have not seen the flow chart yet. But our plan is to provide a lift increase along with this porting, so our goal will be to optimize for best overall cylinder fill, and most flow will occur at the higher lifts.
 
However, we are taking a moderate approach to this, sort of like we did with the Fireball. We are not attempting to do a racing engine with this. At least, not right now.



Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: rep_movsd on February 13, 2013, 08:36:06 pm
One of the interesting facts about the ECU of the Classic-500 is that they actually took the trouble to map it to 18500 feet altitude. Any Bullet that cannot reach Khardungla pass at that height will never be taken seriously in India. Been there - The CL-500 climbed easily in 3rd and 4th with a pillion. All the other 350 cc bikes including the CL-350 needed 1st and second even with a single rider. A "Japanese" bike was revved out in 1st gear and barely moving forward in the last stages.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Royalista on February 13, 2013, 09:38:45 pm
Amen to that...

Whenever I have an issue that's what keeps me focused. Whatever happens, I can ride it up to Khardung La.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 15, 2013, 03:53:23 pm
We have been having some recent conversations with the ECU people, and it seems that they will be making a few tweaks that we need, and we will buy a unit for our testing here. That means that we'll probably have it here by the end of the month, or early next month. And then we'll have to familiarize ourselves with how to program it and get some time on the bike and the dyno with it. We will have to program this thing for our kit.
The unit will just plug into your existing wiring harness. Un-plug your OEM ECU and plug in this new one. We will have it pre-programmed and ready to plug right in when we get these kits ready for market.

Assuming everything works out, and we will probably come up with some things we want to improve along the way, we'll then begin with having our special "ACE" versions of this ECU made for us, which will have all the features and programming to provide with our kits.

So, I'm feeling pretty optimistic about this right now.
We expect to have the heads(we are doing two heads) in our hands before the end of the month too. I don't know why I haven't received the flow charts for the head yet, but they will eventually arrive, and then I'll post them. We still need to get the better rockers made.
Then, Chumma will work out the piston design with our piston provider for the 535 piston with the features that we want to provide with that. And we'll bore the barrels for the new pistons.

The pieces are starting to come together.
The idea is that you bolt on our custom 535 big-bore kit with piston and barrel, and bolt our modified head on top, button it all up, and plug in the new pre-programmed ECU, and you ride away with an Ace power upgrade for your UCE bike that works right out of the box.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 15, 2013, 06:48:27 pm
Awesome progress :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ragmas on February 15, 2013, 08:50:12 pm
What's that?  You need another test bed?  Why of course, I would be glad to let you throw that into my bike so I can see how it does. 

Samgar
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on February 16, 2013, 01:19:26 am
Not that I want to take anybody's eye's off the prize, but I'm curious about Ace's statement about poorly tuned factory ECU's, which led me to ask:

Quote
Just how poorly tuned are our factory ECU's?  If the 20% gain is due to the Power Commander, the filter, and the silencer, then how much is due to the PC alone?

Can anybody comment?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on February 16, 2013, 01:46:10 am
I have no idea how poorly tuned the factory ECU is.
I guess it depends on what you want.

In India, km/ltr is the biggie. 

That probably explains why my RE is giving me better mileage/gal than my old Honda CX500.

I think Ace's projects are designed to improve power and acceleration so from that standpoint there are some improvements that can be made.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 16, 2013, 02:14:45 am
Not that I want to take anybody's eye's off the prize, but I'm curious about Ace's statement about poorly tuned factory ECU's, which led me to ask:

Can anybody comment?
Matt,
I mentioned it in the context of the claim of "20% hp increase" from the Power Commander, along with the inclusion of the different air filter and different silencer. This meaning that the addition of these free-flow devices permitted some additional air to be ingested into the engine, and so the additional fuel could be used in a productive way and the Power Commander could then supply that fuel to make a correct mixture ratio.

I really don't know how poorly(or not) the stock ECU is tuned. Only that the Power Commander could not make much improvement by itself unless the ECU was poorly tuned.
Real increases come when the engine gets more air into it, compression is increased, displacement is increased, rpm is increased, or any/all of the above. In fact, it is likely that the stock ECU is tuned fairly well for normal riding with the stock engine. And so I don't think that just plugging in a Power Commander is going to give anywhere near a 20% power increase unless these other items are changed to permit more air to come into the engine, which can then accept more fuel in the proper ratio. And I was pointing out that the ad for the PC was doing just that, and that the free flow filter and silencer were part of this power gain, and a very important part at that
So, the PC is not doing this by itself, and it is just correcting the mixture ratio for the additional air that the free flow parts allowed to enter.

That is really the point that I was trying to make.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on February 16, 2013, 10:20:09 am
I really don't know how poorly(or not) the stock ECU is tuned. Only that the Power Commander could not make much improvement by itself unless the ECU was poorly tuned.

Thanks for that clarification Ace!  I am a-quiver with anticipation of your results...
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on February 16, 2013, 11:11:12 pm
On a dyno test on my bike the stock ECU with an EFI muffler and K&N filter was pretty well tuned. the mixture was pretty much between 12 and 13:1 thoughout the entire range. It could've been tweaked a little closer to 13:1, but in the the real world it works pretty well!
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 16, 2013, 11:19:15 pm
On a dyno test on my bike the stock ECU with an EFI muffler and K&N filter was pretty well tuned. the mixture was pretty much between 12 and 13:1 thoughout the entire range. It could've been tweaked a little closer to 13:1, but in the the real world it works pretty well!
Bare

Yeah, I sort of expected it would be pretty good.
That really just reinforces that the PC would have very little effect without the other modifications listed in that advertising copy. But doing the free flow modifications, and having the PC add fuel in the proper ratio to work with the increased air supply can give a good boost as a combined package.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 22, 2013, 01:25:12 pm
Our prototype programmable ECU is ready, and I'm being billed for it today, and it will be on its way to us for testing very soon.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on February 22, 2013, 03:05:56 pm
what brand/make/model of ECU are you using ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 22, 2013, 03:44:40 pm
what brand/make/model of ECU are you using ?

This particular one is coming from RaceDynamics. I expect that it will have the modifications to it which we requested, along with the programming cable.
We like this one because it plugs into the harness just like the stock ECU, and uses the stock injector and all the stock sensors, etc.
We(supposedly) can program it the way we desire. And we will need to develop the program on a dyno with all of our new performance kit stuff on the engine. So, this is basically just an easy to plug-in platform, which we will need to program specifically for our needs. Our goal in the future would be to provide the unit with our program already in it, for purchasers of our kits. It wouldn't be of any use to us in a standard configuration. This just allows us to get into it and modify it the way we need to.
And of course, we need to test it to be sure that it is going to do what we want, including being stable and reliable.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 22, 2013, 04:17:18 pm
Any idea what the CU will retail for?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 22, 2013, 04:34:14 pm
Any idea what the CU will retail for?

Scott

Well, it's costing me about $400 to get this one landed here in the US, including the programming cable link, and the shipping costs, etc. I had to pay retail price, plus shipping.
I will have to try to negotiate something with them on the price for some quantities in the future.

Right now I'm just wanting to get this package working and sorted. Then I can work on getting costs down. First things first.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 22, 2013, 06:25:04 pm
$400 retail with a programming cable is a good price IMO.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2013, 11:53:26 am
$400 retail with a programming cable is a good price IMO.

Scott

Well, as it turns out, the final price I had to pay was $450, including various fees for stuff like "Bank Charges", which I didn't really want to pay, and $60 for shipping.
But, at least I got the stuff on the way here now.

I informed them that in the future, when I wish to purchase these items for re-sale with our performance kits, that we need to discuss some kind of dealer pricing.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 25, 2013, 06:17:02 pm
Still, that's in the ballpark of other similar units like the PC3.  When something gets made in smaller numbers there's often a premium to pay for it.  I'm glad this one seems reasonably priced.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2013, 06:35:28 pm
Still, that's in the ballpark of other similar units like the PC3.  When something gets made in smaller numbers there's often a premium to pay for it.  I'm glad this one seems reasonably priced.

Scott

Scott,
What kind of exhaust system are you using?
Do you have an aftermarket exhaust?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 25, 2013, 07:56:49 pm
I've got the stock header with an Emgo reverse cone.  They make two that are within about an inch of each other, this is the shorter.  With stock intake I haven't noticed any difference in performance compared to the stock torpedo but I do get fewer vibes all around, most notable through the pegs.  This is a steel baffled unit, not a glasspack.  Noise is about the same as stock, maybe a touch louder at speed but your neighbors would never notice.  And it looks way nicer ;)

I also have a pod filter, not a K&N but similar.  Thin fiber element that can be used dry or oiled.  I had mounted it right to the throttle body but that dropped my MPG by about 10%.  It did seem to have a bit more giddyup with that and the intake howl sounded great.  I have a length of radiator hose about the right diameter and I'm planning to mount it again sometime with a little length to both smooth out the airflow and increase the air capacity betwee the filter and the TB.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on February 25, 2013, 09:43:28 pm
On the dyno, mine started to shut off the gas at 5500 and the mixture would start to lean out, but the engine would keep running to 5900 before it would quit. The power dropped off rapidly above 5500 but it was interesting to see the engine keep on revving. Or quite like most of the engines I've had dynoed which quit pretty much at redline or maybe 100 RPM higher.
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 25, 2013, 10:49:10 pm
Here's some detail on what I have on:
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php?topic=15416.0

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2013, 10:53:28 pm
On the dyno, mine started to shut off the gas at 5500 and the mixture would start to lean out, but the engine would keep running to 5900 before it would quit. The power dropped off rapidly above 5500 but it was interesting to see the engine keep on revving. Or quite like most of the engines I've had dynoed which quit pretty much at redline or maybe 100 RPM higher.
Bare

Well, I expect that we will gain control over that function, among other things.
I'm sure it will be an interesting experience to work with the unit and see what we can get out of it, in conjunction with our modifications.

We have a few ingredients of our recipe coming together now, but it takes everything together to bake this cake. Still a lot of work to do.
We're trying to retain all the nice convenient features like the EFI and the Electric Start and the auto-decompressor and the hydraulic lifters, and all that stuff for minimum fussing that everyone seems to like, and still provide some nice "go power" with the package.

It's a fun process. There are some frustrations along the way, just like most anything, but we enjoy doing it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 25, 2013, 10:58:15 pm
Here's some detail on what I have on:
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php?topic=15416.0

Scott

It looks very good.
However, we are gonna need a full size inside-diameter header on there for this head.
 ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 25, 2013, 11:37:22 pm
Well that's good :)  I also suspect you'll be going for a higher flow muffler anyway.  The D&D system looks nice but as I recall that was an internally stepped header, don't remember the diameters offhand.  Nice that it has a second layer heatshield built right in, and it gives the whole thing a burley look to boot.  Hitchcocks has a full diameter pipe, no heat shield I believe, but it's got the O2 bung and I bet the quality is good.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: barenekd on February 26, 2013, 12:18:20 am
This Hitchcock pipe is nice. It's a bit larger diameter than the stock RE pipe. With a Goldie silencer, it makes less power than stock! The bottom end power is gone! Jack had one on his bike. It didn't work well. He went back to the stock bike with the Goldie.
Ron Greene said the D&D pipe was worth 4 hp. I'm assuming he meant over the stock pipes. If true, that's a good hike!
Bare
Bare
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 26, 2013, 02:49:04 am
This Hitchcock pipe is nice. It's a bit larger diameter than the stock RE pipe. With a Goldie silencer, it makes less power than stock! The bottom end power is gone! Jack had one on his bike. It didn't work well. He went back to the stock bike with the Goldie.
Ron Greene said the D&D pipe was worth 4 hp. I'm assuming he meant over the stock pipes. If true, that's a good hike!
Bare
Bare

That doesn't surprise me at all, about the reduction of low rpm torque after losing the smaller I.D. stock header. The smaller pipe has higher flow speeds and improves scavenging at lower rpms.
However, it loses the advantage at higher rpms because of being small. So, it's a two-edged sword.
We see the same thing with the Iron Barrel engines when people install a 350 exhaust system on the 500 to improve low rpm torque, and it works. But it loses a lot of power at higher rpms because it's too small to work at the higher rpm range.

With a port that is designed to work into a larger pipe, it should be a better overall match. I'm not going to say that the larger I.D. pipe will give better torque at low rpm than the smaller I.D. pipe, but with the right exhaust port it should give a decent low rpm performance while being much better in the higher rpms. It's all a matter of balancing the performance throughout the rev range.
With any fixed diameter and fixed length exhaust system, there is only one area where it is ideal, and the rest is compromise. Making a very useful compromise is the art of it.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 08, 2013, 11:01:45 pm
Okay, I need a refresher on the I.D. of these pipes, please.

IIRC, the D&D has a 1.625" I.D. at the head joint. Is this correct?
And what is the I.D of the Hitchcock's pipe, without the reducer? Is it also 1.625" I.D.?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 11, 2013, 06:56:57 pm
I now have the programmable ECU and the software for the UCE in my hot little hands!
It arrived today.

Familiarization process with the hardware and software will commence!

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 11, 2013, 07:08:59 pm
Funny ...that elusive, and probably the most critical piece got done first. Assuming that the head is almost done, piston next, then exhaust...then vroom vroom!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 11, 2013, 07:10:59 pm
Funny...the part that you were most concerned about got prototyped first....With the head nearly complete, I am guessing its piston time, exhaust then vroom vroom ! haha ! Good times ahead !













Testing ? Did someone say testing ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: raderj on March 12, 2013, 06:00:03 am
Oh Boy. This is becoming very exciting, indeed.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 12, 2013, 06:50:18 pm
Tom,
This is from a previous post by 72Westie:
The pipe is a stepped head pipe, 1 5/8 out of the head to 1 3/4. They have a 2 1/4 full length heat shield back to the muffler, that is what gives the head pipe that big look. He said they tried a bunch of different sizes and this was the best set-up.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 12, 2013, 07:05:31 pm
Okay, well that should work then.

And the Hitchcock's pipe has the solid reducer inside it, which can be bored to 1 5/8".

So, it appears that we'll be compatible on both counts, as far as I can tell.
I would prefer to check the fit in the head first, before I make any firm statements. This should happen soon. No need to jump the gun.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 20, 2013, 11:07:13 pm
The custom valves.
They will be cut for length, and the keeper grooves cut for proper installed spring height.
These babies are top of the line Inconel valves by Ferrea, to our spec.
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1796467855/name/UCE+valves+1.jpg)

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on March 20, 2013, 11:18:04 pm
Inconel is good stuff.  Especially the types with a fairly large amount of cobalt in them.

We found that cobalt acts almost like a lubricant at high temperatures for parts that are rubbing against other steel or iron parts.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 20, 2013, 11:42:04 pm
Do you have to re-harden them after you cut the keeper slots?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 21, 2013, 12:41:39 am
Do you have to re-harden them after you cut the keeper slots?

Scott
No, they will use the valve lash caps on top, so that does away with any special hardness needs. The lash caps are hardened.
The keeper grooves can be cut into the existing hardness level without worry.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on March 21, 2013, 01:48:33 am
The custom valves.
They will be cut for length, and the keeper grooves cut for proper installed spring height...........

I'm out.
I believe that'll be great for a track bike, but, not for my daily rider.
Fin.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 21, 2013, 12:48:48 pm
I'm out.
I believe that'll be great for a track bike, but, not for my daily rider.
Fin.

I understand. No hard feelings.
There's always a line involved in modifications which some people feel is too far, and others feel is not far enough. It's a hard line to walk.

I'm sure that there will be other factors which cause people to not choose it.
As things zero-in on that line, and it becomes clearer, this acts like a wedge on the prospective clients, and some will decide against it.
I had to live with that situation when doing the Fireball too. Settling on one set of parameters will always have this effect.

The one thing that I can say about it is that the cams are short duration, and they have a short overlap. The added lift and port shape/size which we are planning is really necessary to provide the power boost in the absence of longer cam duration. Keeping the short duration and overlap does help to maintain the lower rpm torque, and more lift/flow helps to increase torque in the midrange too.
It's a juggling act. There are always ramifications to each decision.

Regarding the valves, they are not enlarged, and the intake is 1.733" and the exhaust is 1.5".
The inconel is not required for the temperature issues that they normally are used for, but they had the high quality inconel blanks in a size that we needed, which could be easily provided for our application without long waiting times, and the cost difference was only a few dollars per valve. So, we have a bit of "overkill" in the valve material, but it isn't a budget buster, and the valves will be very robust in terms of handling any temps that they will see in this application.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on March 21, 2013, 02:23:49 pm
Ooooh, shiney!  I'm still interested!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 72westie on March 21, 2013, 02:59:28 pm
What kind of lift are you running with those valves, 2.5"?  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 21, 2013, 03:11:27 pm
What kind of lift are you running with those valves, 2.5"?  ;)

Ha!
That's a good one!

Actually, we're probably looking at around .400" lift, or thereabouts.
We might go a little higher than that, maybe, if it looks like it's worth doing.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on March 23, 2013, 04:37:08 pm
I take it you are grinding your very own cams for this project?  If so, what was the biggest variation as far as the lift/duration between the original cams and new cams?  Have you tried any variations to perform better at higher RPMs or are you just focused on making the most out of low end and mid range RPMs?
Scottie
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 23, 2013, 05:10:06 pm
I take it you are grinding your very own cams for this project?  If so, what was the biggest variation as far as the lift/duration between the original cams and new cams?  Have you tried any variations to perform better at higher RPMs or are you just focused on making the most out of low end and mid range RPMs?
Scottie

Hi Scottie,
We are not grinding cams for this project because the auto-decompressor system is located inside the exhaust cam, and that complicates the cam-making procedure. And we don't want to delete the auto-decompressor because that protects the electric starting gear system from damage.
We plan to address the lift and breathing issues in a different way with this engine, and leave the original cams in place, along with the auto-decompressor.

However, for the older Iron Barrel engines we had cams ground for us called "Ace Magnum Cams" which have about .040" higher lift, and about 8 degrees longer duration, compared to the stock cams. And the opening/closing timing points are different than stock, and the ramps and lobe shapes are different than stock. These things are determined by the flow characteristics of the ports, so that we can make the most out of the flow, without putting any higher stress than necessary in the valve train components. These cam figures might not sound all that impressive for an increase, but it must be viewed in the context that we are flowing about 30% more through the ports on average, because of our head work.

On the Fireball, we focused on a wide torque curve, with an upper-rpm range raised to about 6000 rpm, and peaking horsepower relatively near the max rpm of the engine. This gave a good result for street use, and still allowed a good higher rpm power, and the ability to get a top speed of over The Ton.

We have good understanding of cam design, and so we can apply that to our needs, whether they be higher rpm power, or low rpm torque, or whatever.  In the end, the cams are basically the "traffic cop" of breathing, and ultimately it is the flow capacity and the flow characteristics in the head which will determine the power potential and power range of the engine.

With the Bullet, the long stroke is a limiting factor in rpms, so the max rpms are not really going to get very high. So with the normal 90mm stroke that all the Bullet engines have, we consider 6000-6500rpm to be about the safe limit for a street rod, while keeping engine longevity in mind as one of the goals.  Generally we aim for 6000 rpm limit, and give a few hundred extra rpms for a useful extra "cushion" if needed for some reason on occasion.
With this approach, we can get a nice power level at the higher rpms, without objectionable losses down there in the lower rpms, and good street tractability, good fuel economy, and a good expectation of longevity.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GSS on March 23, 2013, 07:57:58 pm
I'm out.
I believe that'll be great for a track bike, but, not for my daily rider.
Fin.

A pretty definitive statement with no word of explanation?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 23, 2013, 10:01:08 pm
A pretty definitive statement with no word of explanation?

GSS,
It's purely his decision, for whatever reasons he has.
No explanation is necessary. It just comes down to his desires, which I respect, and I don't question.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on March 24, 2013, 05:29:20 am
A pretty definitive statement with no word of explanation?

Firstly, let me acknowledge the terrific amount of development work involved in a project such as this.

Then, I'd like to say that the project has taken an unexpected turn. Perhaps it is the best way to solve the issue as seen by the developers - however - I disagree and therefore I'm out.

It really is that simple. 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 24, 2013, 05:44:13 am
Firstly, let me acknowledge the terrific amount of development work involved in a project such as this.

Then, I'd like to say that the project has taken an unexpected turn. Perhaps it is the best way to solve the issue as seen by the developers - however - I disagree and therefore I'm out.

It really is that simple. 

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your disagreement ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 12:10:40 pm
I think that it must have come from the custom valves adding cost. That seemed to be when it happened.

In any event, any reason that a person feels to not want this stuff is a good enough reason. Nobody should feel pressured to be wanting these things. It's just a choice people make. There will certainly be many more who won't do this modification.  That's the way these things are.

The man has made his decision, so let's leave it at that.

I'd also like to add that there have been numerous tests of intermediate stages that were tried along the way.
If someone doesn't want the full package, and is willing to accept some lesser amount of power, for a less costly price that includes the stock valves and less port work, or whatever, that is possible. It would have to be on an individual basis, by inquiry.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 02:16:22 pm
Okay, just for some fun, I'll post some flow-based estimates of what might be produced by some intermediate stage work.
These are ESTIMATES based on flow into the engine, and are not dyno tested results or anything like that. It's just what would be likely with the additional flow coming in.

Stock valves with the ACE valve job, on stock springs should yield "about" 2hp increase. No real porting, just some minor bowl blend.
Ace valves and valve spring package, with hi-lift rockers should yield about 5hp increase. No real porting, just some minor bowl blending.

So, there's a couple possibilities that could be looked at for smaller gains, which would obviously be lower cost than the full package with the porting job.

These estimates are based on pretty conservative numbers, which I extrapolated from the stock bike's performance numbers.
The stock bike is rated at 27.2hp at the engine. Divide that 27.2 into the max flow of the stock head, which is 136 cfm, and we get 5 cfm of flow for every horsepower it produces at the engine.  This is about the level of efficiency this engine produces in stock form. It takes 5 cfm of flow for it to make one hp.
So, if we then divide the max flow number for the ACE valve job(no porting), with the same stock valve lift as the stock bike has, which is 146 cfm, we get 29.2 hp at the engine, so that is a 2hp increase from JUST a valve job that doesn't even include new valves.
If we add the ACE valves/springs to allow higher lift, and our upcoming higher lift rockers, on our ACE valve job(no porting), we get 165 cfm max flow. Divide that by 5, and it comes out to 33 hp at the engine, which is  5.8 hp increase.  Almost 6hp. This is using the same level of efficiency of 5cfm per hp as the stock bike gives. We are not assuming that we are improving the efficiency in these estimates.
This seems to be in the same estimated general power output range as the upcoming Cafe Racer mentions in the articles recently written about it.

So, if you include some improvement from your free-flow exhaust and nice air filter into that equation, which seems to be around 2hp from those things, it adds up.
A 21 rear-wheel horsepower stock UCE would add about 2hp from the exhaust system and air filter, and estimate another 2hp from the ACE valve job, and that would then put that bike at an estimated 25hp at the rear wheel.  No porting.
That same 21 rear-wheel horsepower stock UCE with the higher lift kit and our valve job and valve/spring package would add estimated 5.8 horsepower to the 2hp from the exhaust kit, to put the rear wheel hp at an estimated 28.8 rwhp. No porting. Again, it's estimated to be similar to about what the Cafe Racer would be expected to have at the rear wheel, using their engine hp numbers as a guide.

This gives some general idea about things that could be done, which require less work, would cost less, and give a more modest power increase which might better suit some people.

Virtually every job we do is a custom job anyway, so we can accommodate.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on March 24, 2013, 06:09:17 pm
Hi ace.cafe

I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project! Can you not design new cams which can also accommodate the auto-decomp? How about the new set of cams/throttle body etc the Cafe Racer is rumored to come with?

Are we trying to go a little too cost effective with our UCE project?

I have been told by one local RE manager here that C5 in India initially came with a set of cams which would develop play and start making noise quite early and another set which was better than the old ones. This I came to know when I got the noisy cams replaced on my bike.

Also, I remember reading it somewhere on this thread that stock UCE 500 makes 19.8 hp at the wheel, but you have quoted 21 hp in your last post.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on March 24, 2013, 06:31:01 pm
......I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project!...............

+2
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 06:42:07 pm
Hi ace.cafe

I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project! Can you not design new cams which can also accommodate the auto-decomp? How about the new set of cams/throttle body etc the Cafe Racer is rumored to come with?

Are we trying to go a little too cost effective with our UCE project?

I have been told by one local RE manager here that C5 in India initially came with a set of cams which would develop play and start making noise quite early and another set which was better than the old ones. This I came to know when I got the noisy cams replaced on my bike.

Also, I remember reading it somewhere on this thread that stock UCE 500 makes 19.8 hp at the wheel, but you have quoted 21 hp in your last post.

Hi,
Well, the main thing to get is more power.

Yes, I know that we have seen 19.8hp at the wheel on the UCE, but there have been several dyno tests of various UCE bikes, and some have shown over 20hp, with one being right about 21hp. It really isn't a big issue, because the power gains will just add to whatever the bike previously had before modding, and it will likely vary some from bike to bike.
So, I didn't mean to make any statement about the UCE by using that one figure as a base power figure. If you add the same numbers to the base of 19.8hp at the rear wheel, the numbers will be 1.2 hp lower for that. I had to pick a number as a rwhp base for the stock bike. If you prefer to use 19.8 as that base, please adjust the final figures accordingly. These are estimates.

Regarding cams.
We have plans to increase the breathing via ratio rockers. This gives us the additional lift which will exploit the head work and can provide just as much power as if we had made cams. We have no plans to radically increase the maximum rpms, and expect to redline around 6000 rpm, or perhaps a little bit higher, and so we really do not perceive a need for longer duration in order to do that. We will get a little bit of duration increase between the .050" points which will effectively increase our breathing duration to some small extent from the rockers.
So, the point I'm making is that the rockers are taking the place of the cams in this case, and will cost less, and do the job, while allowing the auto-decompressor to remain in place.

I think we could design cams which would include the auto-decomp, but having them made is an expensive proposition. Particularly when the valve timing of the standard cams of the UCE already have the timing points and lobe centers approximately where we would want them anyway. What they really lack is lift, and the rocker kit can supply that.
In the event that the Cafe Racer cams and throttle body become available for separate purchase, we can certainly have a look at those and see if they can be used to add to our package.

We will pursue the 535 big-bore too, and will have a piston which will have sufficient reliefs in the crown to allow the higher lift, and also give perhaps just a little more compression too. That's probably worth a couple more hp.

With the ability to program the ECU to move the rev-limiter, we can utilize the slightly higher rev range which we plan, and get to 6000rpm+, which gives us some more revs to make hp, compared to the stock rev limit.

And this again comes down to some selection criteria. We are not currently making this to be a "race kit". That's something else. This is a street rod kit, which is not a full-out racer.

If we have people who want a full-out racer, that is certainly open for discussion, and we can comply with that, at higher cost and more time for development. We are not opposed to doing that.

So, let's talk about it. What do we want in cams that we are not getting with these rockers?
We have a resource to go to for cams, bit they'll be expensive and will take time.
Regarding the decomp, we could move the decomp to a manual decomp in the head if we prefer to eliminate the auto-decomp. Maybe you don't like the auto-decomp? We can change it.
And we could twin plug if people want that.
We can do a lot of stuff. Let's get the ideas out on the table.




Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on March 24, 2013, 06:49:30 pm
I think that it must have come from the custom valves adding cost. That seemed to be when it happened.........

Well ACE, since you seem to be calling me out on this....   I disagree with your plan to use exaggerated rocker geometry to obtain higher lift.

Aside from the extreme mechanical loads you will end up twisting into the head casting (through the rocker pivots) this will do little for the lack of overlap and scavenging at higher RPM's.

I was willing to let you have your campaign, and, not publicly torpedo you....  But when you started speaking for me you should have known I would correct the misperception.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on March 24, 2013, 06:58:26 pm
Hi ace.cafe

Good to know that we are open to more ideas and that cams will not act as a deterrent to performance. We can anyway borrow things from the cafe racer once parts become available for purchase(which will be soon after bike's launch in India). Are we not using the ACE CerMet/Moly Dri-Lube coated pistons for UCE?

Thanks
iron.head
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 07:09:08 pm
Well ACE, since you seem to be calling me out on this....   I disagree with your plan to use exaggerated rocker geometry to obtain higher lift.

Aside from the extreme mechanical loads you will end up twisting into the head casting (through the rocker pivots) this will do little for the lack of overlap and scavenging at higher RPM's.

I was willing to let you have your campaign, and, not publicly torpedo you....  But when you started speaking for me you should have known I would correct the misperception.

Sorry about the misperception.
I'm happy to discuss.

Regarding the loads on the head involved with the rocker systems, perhaps you should know that we have been testing kits like this on the weaker Iron Barrel head casting with similar rocker block system for over 6 months with very good results, and no effects to the head casting. And it's doing very well for power too. The better and stronger UCE head should be even better in this regard. We will test the package.

Regarding scavenging, I understand your concerns about that. I feel that the proposed plan will suffice for the small rpm increase that we have planned, along with the rest of the design. The time/area window during overlap will be increased, and our low-lift flow is higher. If I am in error in this judgment about having enough scavenge for the rpm limit selected, then we will see it during tests.

And again, if there is a demand to have cams, we can go there.
I was working to get where it needed to be, with the least further delay,with cost-effective results, with the easiest end-user installation.
I really hadn't anticipated any blowback on the rocker decision.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 07:13:03 pm
Hi ace.cafe

Good to know that we are open to more ideas and that cams will not act as a deterrent to performance. We can anyway borrow things from the cafe racer once parts become available for purchase(which will be soon after bike's launch in India). Are we not using the ACE CerMet/Moly Dri-Lube coated pistons for UCE?

Thanks
iron.head

Hi,
Yes, we will have a piston that is made for this application, and coatings will be available as always.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: b.sheets on March 24, 2013, 07:33:01 pm
this is becoming a pretty exciting thread.

Ace, keep up the great work and thanks for giving options to everyone as to how far they want to take this...

IMO bring on all the upgrades you can. Let's make this thing do the ton... ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: REpozer on March 24, 2013, 10:09:11 pm
Don't need no stinking valve lift with this nitrous kit.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NEX-15005/

28 HP?? Ha , ..maybe I can make a 100 HP at the wheel,... for a few seconds.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: kammersangerin on March 24, 2013, 10:20:59 pm
Silly question Ace, but do you do this sort of mod for just REs or other bikes as well?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 24, 2013, 11:32:41 pm
Silly question Ace, but do you do this sort of mod for just REs or other bikes as well?

We specialize in Enfields, but we could do others if the opportunity arose.
I have not pursued that, but I'm open to it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 04, 2013, 12:26:49 pm
Hi guys!

We finally got our final flow data on the UCE head, and I thought you might like to see it.

I'm just going to post the intake numbers here today, and the exhaust flow numbers are ported to a corresponding percentage of the intake numbers in the UCE Ported Head that we did.

First, here is the flow chart from the stock UCE head as it comes from the factory.
The stock cam only lifts to .300", but it was flow tested to .400" where it flattened off.
STOCK HEAD:
Lift--------CFM
.050".....35.9
.100".....65.3
.150".....89.09
.200"....111.74
.250"....126.84
.300"....135.9
.350"....141
.400"....142.5

Here's a photo of the UCE head on the flow test bench.
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/585937705/name/UCE+on+flow+bench+photo+4+%282%29.jpg)


And this is the flow from our UCE Ported Head.
This head was flow tested to .500" because we will be adding more lift than stock.
PORTED HEAD:
Lift--------CFM
.050".....28.72
.100".....52.414
.150".....86.07
.200"....113.25
.250"....135.9
.300"....156
.350"....174
.400"....189
.450"....195
.500"....198

We can immediately notice that the flow numbers on the UCE Ported Head are more oriented to better flow at the medium and higher lifts, and that the low lift flow is slightly reduced, compared to the stock head flow. This is part of porting practices to get most flow where it counts, and limit intake flow losses out the exhaust valve during overlap period.
The UCE Ported Head was ported to take advantage of the higher lifts that it will be seeing in our application.
The peak flow rate is increased very significantly, and it compares quite closely with the flow seen in the Ace Fireball 535 kit which we make for the Iron Barrel Bullets.
We expect this to do very well.

Here's a pic of the exhaust port outlet where the header pipe connects, for you guys with header questions. The exhaust port is not exactly round, and it is done that way intentionally, so don't be concerned that it isn't perfectly round.
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1043863316/name/UCE+exhaust+port+photo+2+%282%29.jpg)

Graph of flow comparisons, stock UCE vs Ace UCE attached below.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on April 04, 2013, 03:53:21 pm
Its coming together !!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on April 04, 2013, 06:16:14 pm
Very impressive improvement over stock.  Can't wait until the motor is complete and we can see some dyno numbers.  Keep up the great work ACE!    8)

Scottie
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 04, 2013, 06:51:27 pm
Well, this is what it takes to get the power up to where we want it to be.
We're asking for a fairly significant increase over stock power.

As I mentioned in a previous post, if we make a basic comparison of air flow(cfm) per horsepower on the stock bike, we get 135.9cfm divided by 27.2(stock hp) and we get 4.996. Essentially 5 cfm per hp, in round terms. The stock bike takes 5 cfm to make each hp.

So, if we do the same calc for this Ace UCE Head, we are probably looking at around .400" lift, so take the 189cfm divided by 5, and we get 37.8hp at the engine. About a 10.6 hp increase over stock.

Since the stock bike loses, let's say around 7hp by the time it gets to the 20.2 hp figure we might typically see at the rear wheel on a dyno, we can subtract that same amount of loss off our figure, and get around 30.8 hp at the rear wheel for our Ace rwhp estimate.

So, that's a well-founded realistic guesstimate at what we'd expect to see.  There is some potential for more than that, but I would rather estimate on the conservative side at this time. And there could be some things that might hold us back more than anticipated too, like the stock throttle body.

We'll have to take it one step at a time, and see what we can get out of it. And as we work at the fine-tuning after it is done, we can usually pull a fair amount more than the first attempt.

Should be faster than the new 535 Cafe Racer, if it all comes together as planned.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GSS on April 04, 2013, 07:18:12 pm
Should be faster than the new 535 Cafe Racer, if it all comes together as planned.
Very nicely done. Between you and ScooterBob, I think we will see a real ton on a UCE soon!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on April 04, 2013, 08:37:38 pm
By wagging my thumb in the air and looking at the numbers it looks like your ported head with the stock valve lift would add about 15% worth of power.

That alone would boost the 27.2 hp to 31.2 and some folks could find some usefulness for 4 more horsepower. :)

Keep up the good work. :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 04, 2013, 09:08:08 pm
By wagging my thumb in the air and looking at the numbers it looks like your ported head with the stock valve lift would add about 15% worth of power.

That alone would boost the 27.2 hp to 31.2 and some folks could find some usefulness for 4 more horsepower. :)

Keep up the good work. :)

That's a good point, Jim.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: wokka on April 09, 2013, 07:56:32 am
Been hiding under rocks in various countries lately,

Just had a read through the last 5 or so pages, nice work Ace.

The only worry I have is that the porting work is not possible out here, and shipping back and forth to the states is gonna cost a fortune.

Interested to see the numbers
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Jamesriot on April 09, 2013, 08:38:35 am
Good if there is someone great like you, in my country....I would ask them to do it for my bike.

Good Job bro, keep it post!  8)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AussieDave on May 09, 2013, 10:07:34 am
Bit of a bump, just wondering how its all coming along? No pressure:)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 09, 2013, 01:59:45 pm
Bit of a bump, just wondering how its all coming along? No pressure:)

Still coming along slowly. There will be some delays over the next 2 months because Chumma will be in India, and he has the B5 prototype bike at his place in NJ.
In the meantime, we will be working with the parts development.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AussieDave on May 09, 2013, 02:55:42 pm
Still coming along slowly. There will be some delays over the next 2 months because Chumma will be in India, and he has the B5 prototype bike at his place in NJ.
In the meantime, we will be working with the parts development.

Thanks!
[/quote
And I'm sure it will be worth the wait. Thanks for the prompt response. all the best.D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: eda1bulletc5 on May 09, 2013, 04:21:16 pm
Hi Ace,

It is very nice to know the thoroughness in your modifications!!...Great work and write-up. Hope to see some dyno results!

Ace, how is the racedynamics ECU modifier or powercommander V (can't remember which one you had got) working? Will Dyno tuning and installing a new map help (if any) further improve performance along with your mods?

Good luck on the project!

Sajiv


Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on May 09, 2013, 06:03:20 pm
Hi Ace,

It is very nice to know the thoroughness in your modifications!!...Great work and write-up. Hope to see some dyno results!

Ace, how is the racedynamics ECU modifier or powercommander V (can't remember which one you had got) working? Will Dyno tuning and installing a new map help (if any) further improve performance along with your mods?

Good luck on the project!

Sajiv

Hi Sajiv,
We are a long ways off from anything like that.
We still have to finish doing the engine.

Yes, dyno tuning it will be important to establish the proper ECU behavior for this engine. It will definitely help us to make the performance the way we want it.

Thanks to all for your interest and support.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on June 25, 2013, 06:36:39 pm
Yes, yes, Gorilla and Scooter Bob built a totally bitchen bike.  Moving on... ;)

How's progress on the UCE Fireball going?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on June 25, 2013, 07:14:57 pm
Yes, yes, Gorilla and Scooter Bob built a totally bitchen bike.  Moving on... ;)

How's progress on the UCE Fireball going?

Scott

We are awaiting the completion of the rocker arm system for the head. It's underway.
The piston will come next, and Chumma will be handling that part of it when he comes back from India in late July.
After that, it should be a matter of programming the ECU and getting it all dialed-in.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 16, 2013, 01:26:26 am
Rocker arm prototypes for the UCE project have been shipped and are on the way to us for evaluation.

Things are progressing, even if slowly.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on August 16, 2013, 01:49:31 am
Rocker arm prototypes for the UCE project have been shipped and are on the way to us for evaluation.

Things are progressing, even if slowly.

That's awesome!  Can't wait to see what you end up accomplishing with this project!

Scottie
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Mr.Mazza on August 26, 2013, 12:41:13 pm
Bit of a bump, any new progress on this? Very interested!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 26, 2013, 07:05:47 pm
Chumma is meeting with the custom ECU manufacturer for a training session.
Next month, the piston development begins.


Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on August 26, 2013, 07:14:45 pm
When you do piston development, do you need to do it 100% from scratch?  Or can you get 'blanks' of some sort that are about right and mill them to exactly what you want?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 27, 2013, 01:03:13 pm
When you do piston development, do you need to do it 100% from scratch?  Or can you get 'blanks' of some sort that are about right and mill them to exactly what you want?

Scott

Typically, the forgings are made in basic bore sizes, and they are oversized enough in most areas, so that they can be machined to have the dome size and shape needed, and the other various requirements we may have.
So, it is the dimensional specs that we need to give them for this, and we also discuss weight saving and any other issues that may be needed for the application.
After that, they make a CNC program to finish up the forgings to our specs.

In the case of the UCE, with a closed chamber that probably won't be needing any dome or raised area for compression increase, it's mostly going to be making sure that we have sufficient valve recess depth for our increased valve lift, and also getting the squish distance set for the most common(sea level) applications. We are going to do some tests to see how much additional compression we can get by optimizing the squish, so that we can coax a little more power out of the package with a good piston design.

I don't know at this time if the AVL 535 piston will be compatible with our lift specs, but we will find that out, so that those who have already installed that AVL piston can know. Since we already know that the AVL piston squish is not in the proper spec, and we also know that the stock UCE squish is not in the proper spec,(contrary to others' conclusions) the AVL piston would require being set to a different deck height in the bore than the stock piston is set at, which can be done with some small amount of work involved.

When we have the opportunity to make a custom piston,  we'd like to get the most that we can get out of it, and have it do what we want it to do, with the easiest installation procedure for the user.

Perhaps we're just a bit more "picky" about things than other people, but we sometimes are aware of some more technical issues than others might see. We don't just do extra things for no reason. We do have reasons, even if some people don't know what those reasons are.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on August 28, 2013, 12:40:05 am
Since we already know that the AVL piston squish is not in the proper spec, and we also know that the stock UCE squish is not in the proper spec,(contrary to others' conclusions) the AVL piston would require being set to a different deck height in the bore than the stock piston is set at, which can be done with some small amount of work involved.

I know, right? Those engineers at RE are sure dumb not to get the squish area JUST right on every one of the 150K bikes a year that they make! Seems to ME that they run pretty good ..... and they'll run better with the AVL piston in 'em - especially since it's the same nominal bore size, weight, pin height and all .... but with a flat top. A feller COULD spend a fortune or a lifetime to re-invent a AVL piston - or he could just buy one and put it in there and have a little more zoot ...... Just sayin' ..... and concludin' ...... ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bulletman on August 28, 2013, 01:34:14 am
I know, right? Those engineers at RE are sure dumb not to get the squish area JUST right on every one of the 150K bikes a year that they make! Seems to ME that they run pretty good ..... and they'll run better with the AVL piston in 'em - especially since it's the same nominal bore size, weight, pin height and all .... but with a flat top. A feller COULD spend a fortune or a lifetime to re-invent a AVL piston - or he could just buy one and put it in there and have a little more zoot ...... Just sayin' ..... and concludin' ...... ;D
I'm no piston expert Scooterbob, but what you're sayin' makes total "Common" sense to me...I sure don't want or rather wouldn't want to spend a fortune...not if if I can help it. :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 28, 2013, 01:49:21 am
Apparently.
It's really not a contentious or argumentative issue.
It's either in squish spec or it's not. The  OEM ones that we've seen are not.
What their reasons are for making this decision is unknown to me.
Ours will be within the generally accepted squish distance because we wish to utilize the benefits of the mixture motion in the combustion process as part of the improvements with our kit.

However, our piston project only regards our kit, since our kit has specific requirements that are different from the OEM parts. OEM specs or other performance products' specs are outside our purview, except that we observe and note what we see and measure about them.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on August 28, 2013, 05:30:57 am
I don't doubt that replacing the existing UCE piston with a AVL piston will raise the compression ratio (assuming the cylinder is mounted at the same height) and result in some power increase.  This increased power does come with some risk though.
The revised combustion area with a flat topped piston may be more prone to pre-ignition or detonation  which the relieved dome piston helps to prevent.
Using higher octane fuel may be necessary to keep this from happening.  On the other hand, it may not be enough by itself.

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.
When maximum power is the goal, improving the entire combustion area with a properly designed piston crown and modifying the combustion area to create a proven squash type combustion chamber is needed.

IMO, the original UCE combustion zone was designed to create modest gains in power and high reliability while giving the best fuel economy while using low octane fuel.  This goal was reached with the existing design.

Ace on the other hand is looking to get the greatest power out of the engine without sacrificing reliability or creating a engine that needs 100 + octane fuel.

While using the AVL piston in place of the original UCE piston is an option, making it the only option would tie his hands and keep him from reaching his goal of developing the maximum power possible.

At least, that's the way I see it. :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 28, 2013, 03:10:05 pm
I don't doubt that replacing the existing UCE piston with a AVL piston will raise the compression ratio (assuming the cylinder is mounted at the same height) and result in some power increase.  This increased power does come with some risk though.
The revised combustion area with a flat topped piston may be more prone to pre-ignition or detonation  which the relieved dome piston helps to prevent.
Using higher octane fuel may be necessary to keep this from happening.  On the other hand, it may not be enough by itself.

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.
When maximum power is the goal, improving the entire combustion area with a properly designed piston crown and modifying the combustion area to create a proven squash type combustion chamber is needed.

IMO, the original UCE combustion zone was designed to create modest gains in power and high reliability while giving the best fuel economy while using low octane fuel.  This goal was reached with the existing design.

Ace on the other hand is looking to get the greatest power out of the engine without sacrificing reliability or creating a engine that needs 100 + octane fuel.

While using the AVL piston in place of the original UCE piston is an option, making it the only option would tie his hands and keep him from reaching his goal of developing the maximum power possible.

At least, that's the way I see it. :)

I'm in agreement with much of the above statement.

Here are the details about my observations and opinions on the subject.

First, the AVL and UCE have a "more modern" closed chamber design than the Iron Barrel open chamber hemi. However, they do not have a fully "modern" closed chamber, owing to the side-draft induction configuration inherent in the vintage style engine layout chosen for the "retro" styling needed for the market. Side-draft induction comes with a need to angle the valves quite wide from vertical, so that there is not such a severe turn in the port to get the mixture into the cylinder. When these valves are angled like this, the valve heads automatically require a fairly deep combustion chamber to fit them in there. With a combustion chamber deep enough to accommodate these valve sizes, the volume of the combustion chamber is still fairly big in terms of modern chamber size, even if it is a "more modern" closed chamber design. So, there are some inherent challenges which come along with this.

Typically, one of the first things to do with a closed chamber is to use the squish/quench area inherent with a closed chamber design. This squish comes from the piston coming within a very close distance to the flat areas of the cylinder head, and "squishing" the mixture in those areas toward the center of the chamber as the piston goes over TDC, thus increasing the motion of the mixture during the combustion phase, generally giving a faster and more complete burn with less end-gas problems. The small gap remaining between the flat area of the piston crown and the flat areas around the perimeter of the closed chamber then constitute a "quench" area which prevents the burning in that thin quench gap, preventing the detonation of the end gases at the furthest ends of the chamber in the quench area. These things combine to allow a higher working compression ratio with the same fuel octane because the mixture motion from the squish, and the improvements of quench, can get the mixture burned more quickly and evenly, generally staving-off detonation and other end gas issues up to a certain amount of more compression being allowed before these problems do begin to arise. It's not a panacea, but it can give a little bit more by using it, than would be available if not using it. So, it is common practice in modern engines to use it, even with  fully modern chambers of very small volume and upright valve angles, because it does work to allow more compression to be used to gain more power and more complete burns.
That's why it is used. There are established and accepted engineering guidelines for designing squish and quench distance and area into the piston/chamber interface which are well-known for many years now.
Bringing the squish/quench zones into play for the best effect can be an important key to getting the power and efficiency improvement from raised compression, while managing the risks of higher compression reaching nearer to the edge of the fuel limits.

Using the squish/quench in a closed chamber in conjunction with a flat top piston is good design. The flat top piston has the smallest area of any piston crown shape, and this is valuable because it is the lightest weight crown shape, provides the lowest obstruction to the moving flame front during combustion, has the smallest potential for any hot spots arising from irregular shapes or edges, and the smallest area to absorb any useful heat away from the chamber into the piston body. I'm fully in favor of using a flat top piston in the applications of a closed chamber design with squish/quench whenever it is possible. So, I am not opposed to the use of a flat top piston in any way, as long as it is appropriate in the scope of the overall engine design. I expect our piston design to be a flat top design, with the necessary valve lift reliefs in the crown.

Regarding the use of the AVL 535 flat top, it might very well be able to be used with our kit too. At this time, it's too early for me to be able to say if it will, or it won't. If it can, that's fine. I will want it to be installed to our squish/quench requirements if anybody uses it with our kit, providing that there is such compatibility. Our kit will have valve lift increase, and it has not yet been determined if the AVL 535 flat top will have sufficient valve relief depth for our valve lift height at TDC, when installed at the proper deck height in relation to the barrel deck to achieve our squish/quench specs. So, that is something that remains to be determined. Our piston design that will be intended for our kit will have all the necessary dimensional and clearance requirements for compatibility, and also any other improvements that we can possibly put into it. That's why we are doing it. We are after a "plug and play" compatibility with all the components in our kit.
We are designing for an intended result with our kit.
We are not designing our kit around the use of some other parts that happen to be out there. If other parts work with it, that's just all the better for choices.



 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on August 28, 2013, 11:49:39 pm

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.


But it WILL maximise the amount of money left in your wallet - I just can't WAIT 'til the Gashouse Gorilla takes HIS stock, dished piston out and tries the AVL slug ....... !  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 29, 2013, 01:00:57 am
But it WILL maximise the amount of money left in your wallet - I just can't WAIT 'til the Gashouse Gorilla takes HIS stock, dished piston out and tries the AVL slug ....... !  ;)

   D'oh !!  Ahhhh..... Why not ?  I was gettin' bored just riding around on it anyway !  Guess I'm going back in....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on August 29, 2013, 02:04:06 am
I don't doubt that replacing the existing UCE piston with a AVL piston will raise the compression ratio (assuming the cylinder is mounted at the same height) and result in some power increase.  This increased power does come with some risk though.
The revised combustion area with a flat topped piston may be more prone to pre-ignition or detonation  which the relieved dome piston helps to prevent.
Using higher octane fuel may be necessary to keep this from happening. 

BTW - I ran the dog-snot out of the Crash Test Dummy bike with the AVL piston it and the barrel cut down to 0.00 compression height (for proper quench ...) on 87 octane pump piss and had zero detonation, zero carbon build up and zero wear on any inspectable components. By "dog snot" I mean ON the rev limiter, WOT throttle for a 30 mile run, twice a week for a month. You can't hurt one .....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on August 29, 2013, 02:25:47 am
Umm... what does "WOT" mean?  I've seen it used here a number of times, and I can't get it from the context...   :-[
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bulletman on August 29, 2013, 02:28:04 am
Umm... what does "WOT" mean?  I've seen it used here a number of times, and I can't get it from the context...   :-[
Mattsz..
Wide Open Throttle  = WOT
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bulletman on August 29, 2013, 02:31:46 am
But it WILL maximise the amount of money left in your wallet - I just can't WAIT 'til the Gashouse Gorilla takes HIS stock, dished piston out and tries the AVL slug ....... !  ;)
Well....Scooterbob...all I want to really accomplish is to work on a simple project that has been proven.....AND save some money..hopefully a LOT of money from what I'm seeing..it also seems that I would save a considerable amount of time....which in this term is more valuable to me.... :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bulletman on August 29, 2013, 02:36:22 am
   D'oh !!  Ahhhh..... Why not ?  I was gettin' bored just riding around on it anyway !  Guess I'm going back in....
Lets swap bikes GHG, feel free to work on mine....I believe it was a C5 that you have worked on before..I'm sure that's what it was? so since you have the experience working on that bike...I have a C5 too....I wouldn't mind a nice and sexy bike...smoothly running around town...I'm sure the girls would feel the same way too... ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 29, 2013, 02:56:34 am
Lets swap bikes GHG, feel free to work on mine....I believe it was a C5 that you have worked on before..I'm sure that's what it was? so since you have the experience working on that bike...I have a C5 too....I wouldn't mind a nice and sexy bike...smoothly running around town...I'm sure the girls would feel the same way too... ;D


   Shush !!  Will ya !  The wife might be readin' this !  And sure ,you can barrow it......but the girls won't be able to catch ya. ;)  ;D   And you might be better off with Scooterbob working on yours. I go my own to do !  LOL !  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Bulletman on August 29, 2013, 02:58:37 am

   Shush !!  Will ya !  The wife might be readin' this !  And sure ,you can barrow it......but the girls won't be able to catch ya. ;)  ;D   And you might be better off with Scooterbob working on yours. I go my own to do !  LOL !  ;)
:D
Man o man...at least you gotta give me credit for trying.... ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on August 29, 2013, 12:11:31 pm
Mattsz..
Wide Open Throttle  = WOT

Then there is "WFO" ..... Wide F Open .... with the throttle cable stretched and the grip clenched tightly in your fist .....  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on August 29, 2013, 12:13:36 pm
Well....Scooterbob...all I want to really accomplish is to work on a simple project that has been proven.....AND save some money..hopefully a LOT of money from what I'm seeing..it also seems that I would save a considerable amount of time....which in this term is more valuable to me.... :)

Well - There you go! That's the whole ScooterBob program ... Geeter DUNN and ride that sucker! Let someone else fettle endlessly ....  ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 29, 2013, 01:51:48 pm
Well, we're still fettling, so anyone who doesn't want to wait could certainly avail himself of the Scooter Bob Program, or the Hitchcock's program, or whatever.

It has never bothered me any, if some people decide to use mods or parts from other makers, instead of ours.
People are free to do as they please.
We are just doing what we do, for those who want what we do.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 04, 2013, 01:13:24 am
Another little update.

Rocker progress report.
We are looking at three rocker options to present, and having them available for use with the head work.
The first will be just the stock rocker set as it comes from the factory. If the user just wants head work, and use the stock lift and the stock piston, or the flat top pistons for 535, then this will be the most basic option.
The second will be moderate ratio rockers of the stock style. Sort of like the Ace Shotgun Rockers which we will be releasing for the Iron Barrel engine. This will likely require our piston which will have some valve relief pockets in the crown to clear the valves when the piston goes over TDC. We may make a special 535 piston specifically for this, which will have the quench distance set to use with the stock(bored to 535) barrel, and the right compression and valve relief to use with this rocker set.
The third option is the Hi-Lift rocker set which we are already developing, and it is like our similar arrangement for the Ace GP Head for the Iron Barrel. It will feature new billet rocker boxes with shaft-type alloy roller rockers with a higher lift ratio. It will replace the rocker covers on the engine. This will lift the valves much higher, and definitely will require our piston with enough valve relief and compression increase to work with this system.
This will be a fairly expensive option for those who want extra power and are willing to spend what's necessary to get it. However, it is unique in the Bullet market, and Ace is the sole developer and supplier of roller rocker hi-ratio systems for the Royal Enfield. We will have it if you want it.We basically have decided to offer this roller rocker package across the entire Enfield model line-up from legacy to current models. It's a great upgrade in a much needed area of high lift.

The currently existing  UCE 535 pistons from others are flat tops without any valve relief, and they were made to use with stock valve lift, which is VERY minimal lift in the UCE. That's all fine and good for low lift builds, but we are going beyond that, and we'll have pistons for the applications all worked out.

While I don't have any pics right now of the UCE rocker package, I can show a representative photo of the similar package that we have put together for the Iron Barrel engine, on the Ace GP head. Those of you who have followed what we are doing with the iron Barrel engine may already have seen these pics, but I'm posting for those who might not have seen them.

Of course, the styling will be adjusted to suit the UCE head shape and style. I'm just showing the basic concept in this photo of the Iron Barrel system.
Please see attachment.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on December 04, 2013, 03:23:45 am
By wagging my thumb in the air and looking at the numbers it looks like your ported head with the stock valve lift would add about 15% worth of power.

I plugged those numbers into my calc, and, I only see a 10.3 percent flow increase. (with some significant flow jumps)  how do you recon it worth 15% ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on December 04, 2013, 05:04:17 am
You really expect me to remember what I did 9 months ago?
I have problems wondering what I wanted to get when I walk into a room.  Sheeze!

OK.  The stock valve lift Ace mentioned is .300.
At .300 lift the stock head flowed 135.9 cubic feet/min.

@ .300 lift the modified head was flowing 156 cfm.  156-135.9 = 20.1 cfm increase.
20.1/135.9 = 0.148 which is equal to 14.8 percent increase.

At least that's the way my thumb figures it when I hold it up and wag it in the air. :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on December 04, 2013, 06:50:07 am
You really expect me to remember what I did 9 months ago?
I have problems wondering what I wanted to get when I walk into a room.  Sheeze!

OK.  The stock valve lift Ace mentioned is .300.
At .300 lift the stock head flowed 135.9 cubic feet/min.

@ .300 lift the modified head was flowing 156 cfm.  156-135.9 = 20.1 cfm increase.
20.1/135.9 = 0.148 which is equal to 14.8 percent increase.

At least that's the way my thumb figures it when I hold it up and wag it in the air. :)

Sorry, it was one of my less-than-sensitive postings .....

I coulda sworn ACE wrote the stock lift was .400 and he was testing to .500 for the extra lift .....   anyway, I added up all the flow measurements from .400 and below, then, compared the two .....

I admit; without knowing the cam profiles (time @ lift), it is still a guess - but my maths say the ported head only flowed 10.3% better.  A bit of low-lift flow was sacrificed for the numbers at the higher lift measurements.

Of course,  it'd be interesting to see just how much the dynamic cylinder flow would be able to keep up with the increase in ACE's static measurements.  a bit of calculus to be sure !   :o

redoing my calcs .....  using .300 max lift ...... I find the stock head flow total equals 564.77 whereas the polished head flows a total of 572.35.  a mere 1% increase with the stock rockers.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on December 04, 2013, 11:26:02 am
Sorry, it was one of my less-than-sensitive postings .....

I coulda sworn ACE wrote the stock lift was .400 and he was testing to .500 for the extra lift .....   anyway, I added up all the flow measurements from .400 and below, then, compared the two .....

I admit; without knowing the cam profiles (time @ lift), it is still a guess - but my maths say the ported head only flowed 10.3% better.  A bit of low-lift flow was sacrificed for the numbers at the higher lift measurements.

Of course,  it'd be interesting to see just how much the dynamic cylinder flow would be able to keep up with the increase in ACE's static measurements.  a bit of calculus to be sure !   :o

redoing my calcs .....  using .300 max lift ...... I find the stock head flow total equals 564.77 whereas the polished head flows a total of 572.35.  a mere 1% increase with the stock rockers.

You can get more lift than that from "stock" cams ..... Right, GHG?  ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 04, 2013, 11:33:47 am
It is true that the average flow numbers at stock left height is only about a percent more than the standard head.
However,  as Gremlin correctly points out, the flow dynamics in the running engine will be more biased toward the peak flow near the max lift because that's where the piston speeds are fastest, working to draw in the air the best.
But,  in a general way regarding this topic, I do agree that keeping the stock lift would severely limit the gains in flow and in power. However, having the compatibility with stock rockers and piston allows a budgeted build that could occur in stages, which may be important to some people who can't do it all at once.
And for anyone wanting to use our head with modified cams in the engine with stock rockers, there is the ability to do that too.

I would not expect any users wanting significant power increase to retain the stock valve lift on any performance mod to this engine, unless it is just an interim stage of a budget - constrained process.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on December 04, 2013, 04:18:15 pm
Another little update.

Rocker progress report.
We are looking at three rocker options to present, and having them available for use with the head work.
The first will be just the stock rocker set as it comes from the factory. If the user just wants head work, and use the stock lift and the stock piston, or the flat top pistons for 535, then this will be the most basic option.
The second will be moderate ratio rockers of the stock style. Sort of like the Ace Shotgun Rockers which we will be releasing for the Iron Barrel engine. This will likely require our piston which will have some valve relief pockets in the crown to clear the valves when the piston goes over TDC. We may make a special 535 piston specifically for this, which will have the quench distance set to use with the stock(bored to 535) barrel, and the right compression and valve relief to use with this rocker set.
The third option is the Hi-Lift rocker set which we are already developing, and it is like our similar arrangement for the Ace GP Head for the Iron Barrel. It will feature new billet rocker boxes with shaft-type alloy roller rockers with a higher lift ratio. It will replace the rocker covers on the engine. This will lift the valves much higher, and definitely will require our piston with enough valve relief and compression increase to work with this system.
This will be a fairly expensive option for those who want extra power and are willing to spend what's necessary to get it. However, it is unique in the Bullet market, and Ace is the sole developer and supplier of roller rocker hi-ratio systems for the Royal Enfield. We will have it if you want it.We basically have decided to offer this roller rocker package across the entire Enfield model line-up from legacy to current models. It's a great upgrade in a much needed area of high lift.

The currently existing  UCE 535 pistons from others are flat tops without any valve relief, and they were made to use with stock valve lift, which is VERY minimal lift in the UCE. That's all fine and good for low lift builds, but we are going beyond that, and we'll have pistons for the applications all worked out.

While I don't have any pics right now of the UCE rocker package, I can show a representative photo of the similar package that we have put together for the Iron Barrel engine, on the Ace GP head. Those of you who have followed what we are doing with the iron Barrel engine may already have seen these pics, but I'm posting for those who might not have seen them.

Of course, the styling will be adjusted to suit the UCE head shape and style. I'm just showing the basic concept in this photo of the Iron Barrel system.
Please see attachment.


Will this work with the stock bottom end ?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 04, 2013, 04:26:01 pm
It will work.
How long the bottom end will hold up depends on a variety of things, and we'll do some testing to try to determine how long it will last.

With the type of bottom end which comes standard in the UCE, as long as there was good quality in the manufacture and assembly of the engine, it should last.
If they didn't make it very well, then it might not.
This is something that I cannot control, and is RE factory related.

We use similar systems in the Fireball, and they hold up very well.
So, it comes down to how good a job that RE does in making these things.

If people see fit to do additional bottom end upgrades for peace of mind, I can certainly understand that, and we would participate in any bottom end work that a buyer might desire, if he wants us to.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on December 04, 2013, 11:44:02 pm
You can get more lift than that from "stock" cams ..... Right, GHG?  ;)

  Ah?...... YEAH!  Of course..... Hold that thought.



Another little update.

Rocker progress report.
We are looking at three rocker options to present, and having them available for use with the head work.
The first will be just the stock rocker set as it comes from the factory. If the user just wants head work, and use the stock lift and the stock piston, or the flat top pistons for 535, then this will be the most basic option.
The second will be moderate ratio rockers of the stock style. Sort of like the Ace Shotgun Rockers which we will be releasing for the Iron Barrel engine. This will likely require our piston which will have some valve relief pockets in the crown to clear the valves when the piston goes over TDC. We may make a special 535 piston specifically for this, which will have the quench distance set to use with the stock(bored to 535) barrel, and the right compression and valve relief to use with this rocker set.
The third option is the Hi-Lift rocker set which we are already developing, and it is like our similar arrangement for the Ace GP Head for the Iron Barrel. It will feature new billet rocker boxes with shaft-type alloy roller rockers with a higher lift ratio. It will replace the rocker covers on the engine. This will lift the valves much higher, and definitely will require our piston with enough valve relief and compression increase to work with this system.
This will be a fairly expensive option for those who want extra power and are willing to spend what's necessary to get it. However, it is unique in the Bullet market, and Ace is the sole developer and supplier of roller rocker hi-ratio systems for the Royal Enfield. We will have it if you want it.We basically have decided to offer this roller rocker package across the entire Enfield model line-up from legacy to current models. It's a great upgrade in a much needed area of high lift.

The currently existing  UCE 535 pistons from others are flat tops without any valve relief, and they were made to use with stock valve lift, which is VERY minimal lift in the UCE. That's all fine and good for low lift builds, but we are going beyond that, and we'll have pistons for the applications all worked out.

While I don't have any pics right now of the UCE rocker package, I can show a representative photo of the similar package that we have put together for the Iron Barrel engine, on the Ace GP head. Those of you who have followed what we are doing with the iron Barrel engine may already have seen these pics, but I'm posting for those who might not have seen them.

Of course, the styling will be adjusted to suit the UCE head shape and style. I'm just showing the basic concept in this photo of the Iron Barrel system.
Please see attachment.


  Beautiful Job on those rockers Ace !  Thats an amazing piece of machining  :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on December 05, 2013, 12:02:03 am
Ace,

Looking at the pics, it  looks like the block that supports the rockers bolts on where originally the cover bolted on.  Is that the way it is?  Was that so you could get a new pivot axis for the rockers?

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 05, 2013, 12:38:07 am
  Ah?...... YEAH!  Of course..... Hold that thought.



  Beautiful Job on those rockers Ace !  Thats an amazing piece of machining  :)

Thanks GHG!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 05, 2013, 12:44:16 am
Ace,

Looking at the pics, it  looks like the block that supports the rockers bolts on where originally the cover bolted on.  Is that the way it is?  Was that so you could get a new pivot axis for the rockers?

Scott
Hi Scott,
Yes, that's it.
We use all the available bolt holes for the rocker covers and rocker blocks to hold the base plates on to the head. This avoids any extra machining or drilling/tapping the head for this mod, and in fact the one we make for the UCE will bolt right on to any UCE head, whether it has our port and valve gear, or not.

The rocker shaft bolts to the base plate, and holds the rocker at the right pivot height and relationship for the rocker geometry needed for the new roller rockers which sit a bit higher over the valve, due to the diameter of the roller.

The cover plate has its own set of holes/bolts which mate with the bottom plate, and the pair of plates form a "clamshell" clamp on both ends of the rocker shaft, in addition to the bolts holding the ends of the rocker shaft. Tight fit.
Plenty strong.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on December 05, 2013, 04:20:01 pm
Ace, I don't know how many orders you got up to date but I hope I'm number one? Can't wait to get this - any estimated figures on the "all" package?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 05, 2013, 04:30:55 pm
Ace, I don't know how many orders you got up to date but I hope I'm number one? Can't wait to get this - any estimated figures on the "all" package?

Hi Roeland,
You will have your choice of the rocker packages, depending on what limits you decide to put on the budget. The port will be the same, and so will the valve gear, and the installed height at the valve tip. The differences will come by how much you decide to lift the valve with the rocker package you decide upon, and the piston necessary to handle it.

These rocker packages will need different piston crowns, to suit the amount of lift ratio. The higher the lift ratio, the deeper the valve reliefs on the piston crown must be, and also the compression ratio must be different to handle the change in inlet valve closing timing which is affected by the lift ratio. We'll have it all worked out in packages that will work together.

As for the waiting time, it will be a while. Very little work progresses during the holiday season, and so I think it's best to settle back and wait till it's done.

I won't have prices on the hi-lift roller rocker box arrangement for a while yet because it is in development, but they will be expensive. This is not a cheap thing to produce in small quantity, and I'm working some of the hottest talent in the US to get this stuff done. I don't want to scare you away from it, but the Iron Barrel version of these rockers was north of $1k, just for the package of roller rockers and custom billet aluminum boxes.
The moderate ratio versions of the standard style rockers will be much more budget-friendly, but not as much lift. They'll bolt on just like the stock rockers do.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on December 05, 2013, 04:37:43 pm
ok
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 06, 2013, 05:05:09 pm
In case anybody is interested in why we are using the rockers for our lift increase, we have several reasons, depending on the application.

Of course, there are two ways to increase valve lift, and we are very familiar with both types, and have used both methods successfully in the past. The 2 methods are increasing the lift at the cam lobe, and increasing the lift at the valve via the rocker. In both systems, the added lift will incur an increase in spring pressure(load), and also increase in accelerations(speeds) of the parts being lifted to a higher lift over the same periods of time.

First, in keeping with our general theme of easy installation of a performance kit on the top end of the engine,  by using the rockers to increase lift, we keep the lift increase on the head, so the user is not required to enter the cam chest and deal with changing cams which some users might feel is too "complicated" for them to want to do. Even with experienced users, it is possible to get the installation wrong if they don't pay close enough attention. So, this simplifies the whole matter, especially for those users who have little experience in engine building. One of our goals is to have the easiest installation for the user.

Secondly, it allows the use of the stock cams which have the auto-decompressor built into the exhaust cam. We want to keep this function right where it is, so that people may have the factory-supplied protection of their sprag starter system, as the factory intended. We understand that this can also be done with a modified cam too, but it complicates manufacture.

Thirdly, it is typically less expensive to build rockers than it is to have custom cams ground, so we expect a cost benefit to keep the cost of the kit lower, or provide us extra "room" to include other features in the kit at a similar cost level.

Fourth, on a performance level, adding the lift ratio at the rockers allows the accelerations of all the parts on the cam/lifter/pushrod side of the valve train to operate at the same rates as they would in a stock engine over the entire rpm range. The only increase in accelerations of parts in this type of system comes at the end of the rocker arm on the valve tip side(and the valve and valve spring stack), which is increased in speed when providing the lift increase from the rocker. Since our Ace valve train is engineered with the lighter parts than stock, and has the advanced beehive spring system for keeping spring surge and harmonics under control, we easily control these moving parts on the valve side of the rocker. By keeping the accelerations/speeds of these heavy parts such as pushrods and lifters at the same speed as stock, this helps keep the inertia of these masses under control, leading to easier controllability of the valve train, and this is more likely to provide better stability and less deflection, resulting in more accurate translation of the cam profile to the valve.

With the lift increase at the cam lobe alone, all of the parts on the cam/lifter/pushrod side of the valve train are subjected to increased accelerations, also along with the parts on the valve/spring stack side. Not that this is necessarily "bad", but it is a fact regarding the comparisons between these two lift increasing methods.

Typical engineering practice in modern pushrod engines distributes the lift percentages by about 2/3 of the lift supplied by the cam lobe, and 1/3 supplied by the rocker ratio. You will find ratio rocker systems in the vast majority of all OEM or performance pushrod engines today. It is certainly not a rarity, or unusual in any respect.
So, we see it as a viable tool in our toolbox to use to achieve our goals.

Regarding using cams to do the lifting, we have no quarrel with that either, and we have used that method in the Iron Barrel Fireball package to very good effect. We had the cams ground by a cam manufacturer according to our specifications, limited it to a fairly modest increase, and observed the results over time, before attempting to increase lift any further. When  we did make the move to higher lift, we then moved to using ratio rockers to augment the lift at the lobe. And our systems for that engine distribute the lift increases at approximately the 2/3 lobe and 1/3 rocker relationship which I mentioned earlier, for all the reasons I previously mentioned.

It's all just tools toward achieving an end. It's not that there are "camps" which  say "lobe", and other "camps" that say "rocker". They all play together, and proper engineering uses these tools to make the end user happy with the outcome. "There's more than one way to skin a cat". You can use all lobe, or you can use all rocker, or your desired combination of both, and get good end results from your lift increase as long as the rest of the valve train is up to the task.
 I like cams, and I like rockers too. They are both important parts of the valve train. Most of all, I like to get good results by using the right methods and practices to make people happy with the performance of their engines.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on December 06, 2013, 06:04:20 pm
Thanks for the details Ace.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on December 09, 2013, 05:23:28 am
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ScooterBob on December 09, 2013, 10:28:50 am
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland
I hear tell that the Gashouse Gorilla has some VERY nice adjustable ones .................
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 09, 2013, 01:18:05 pm
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland
Probably they will.
If there is a change, I will notify about the change and provide availability of the new ones.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 11, 2013, 10:59:49 pm
We got confirmation yesterday about our cost structure for the modifications to the UCE head.

I'm not going to announce a price right now because we are still deciding how we want to present the kit as a package or a la carte.

But I can tell you that the head work will cost lower than the Fireball and offer similar flow and features for less money.

I hope that stokes some of your holiday fires in anticipation of UCE performance from Ace.

Happy Holidays!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on December 12, 2013, 03:30:54 am
That's great news Ace!  I'm excited to see how the 1st few come out.  Is there going to be dyno testing?   :D

Scottie
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on December 12, 2013, 05:33:00 am
Yes - great news - I look forward to this.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: roshiba on December 12, 2013, 07:06:03 am
That's Good News Ace
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: crush02342002 on December 12, 2013, 12:59:04 pm
how about some teaser pics of some of the work :)

edit...went back a few pages and seen them. Nice work indeed!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 02Electra on December 12, 2013, 01:23:47 pm
Interesting.

Tom, planning anything for the chap who is looking for a blueprinted/worked head with minimal aftermarket parts but expecting a clean and strong pulling UCE till the redline?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on December 12, 2013, 01:33:00 pm
Interesting.

Tom, planning anything for the chap who is looking for a blueprinted/worked head with minimal aftermarket parts but expecting a clean and strong pulling UCE till the redline?


If you go back 2-3 pages Tom says ALL the options that will be available from a budget head job up to the full works.    ::)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 12, 2013, 02:17:38 pm
how about some teaser pics of some of the work :)

edit...went back a few pages and seen them. Nice work indeed!

I can snap some more pics next week. The head is at Mondello 's and they are away at a trade show until early next week.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: crush02342002 on December 12, 2013, 02:30:55 pm
sounds good, cant wait :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 12, 2013, 02:33:35 pm
Interesting.

Tom, planning anything for the chap who is looking for a blueprinted/worked head with minimal aftermarket parts but expecting a clean and strong pulling UCE till the redline?
Yes, we can provide any stage of modifications that you may want. All our work is custom work, and we can adjust the suggested package any way you  desire.
We will need some aftermarket parts to pull strong and clean to  red line cleanly in top gear. Our upcoming parts will be designed to do that.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: JVS on February 02, 2014, 12:50:09 am
Updates?  :D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on February 03, 2014, 09:30:32 pm
Updates?  :D

Head work is done and "in the can", with easy repeatability on future heads at a good price. Still having some delays with the  rocker system development,  trying to achieve the most results in an affordable package. This is where the delays are right now. We may see a break through on this in a week or two with a new approach we'll be trying out. Hopefully.
Then the piston design goes into finalization. We have the chamber mold to create the piston crown, but we can't finalize until we know the final valve lift height, so we can set the depths of the valve relief pockets on the piston crown.

So, that's the story. I haven't been updating because we haven't reached a significant milestone of progress worthy of reporting recently.

I'm hopeful we can report that the valve lift is finalized very soon.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 25, 2014, 11:36:26 pm
Update!

Okay, we have finished Roeland's head work, and it is ready to ship!

The package is basically as described previously, and it is the most affordable Fireball package yet!

Basically, we did the previously described porting and head mods, and also have included a "beta prototype" set of UCE rockers which were done in a similar fashion as the Ace Shotgun Rockers for the iron barrel kit.  So. this package includes the head work AND the ratio rockers for the same price as the Iron Barrel Fireball head work alone.
Close to .500" max lift with the rocker ratio we used with the STOCK CAMS in there! No specialty cams needed to buy!
The Ace beehive springs and valve gear will handle that lift.
The max flow in the port is almost identical with the max flow in the iron barrel Fireball, but the lifts are not the same. We used more lift in this UCE to get the max flow we were after.
We used a valve size which allows more lift, with using the regular flat-top piston he has in there, and (hopefully) will have sufficient clearance over TDC, but he is going to have to check it, and maybe there might need some small clearance adjustment. And maybe it might be just fine as it is with the flat top piston in there. We'll see.
So, we went with more lift, and not the big valves, and that's how we went at it, in the final analysis, for this first one.
Stock chamber on this one, for keeping it affordable.

After we get some reports from him, we will see if there needs to be anything changed to reach what we were after.
So, we finally have one going out, after all this time, and I'm very pleased about it!
 :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: DanB on August 26, 2014, 01:20:54 am
Congrats ace!  This is a big deal and it's cool to watch it all in the making. Thanks for sharing it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on August 26, 2014, 05:09:16 am
Thank you Tom - this is great news - I look forward fitting this head.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on August 26, 2014, 05:37:27 am
Hi Tom,

What would be your final estimate in terms of power gain?

Thanks

Roeland
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on August 26, 2014, 05:52:50 am
Way to go Ace!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 26, 2014, 12:05:33 pm
Hi Tom,

What would be your final estimate in terms of power gain?

Thanks

Roeland
I would think it should be somewhere near the other Fireballs, like something in the low to mid 30s. I think it should do the Ton, if the rev limiter is moved out of the way, and you can get 6000 rpm in top gear. The cams have a little shorter duration than the Fireball cams, but I think there is enough breathing there. We'll have to see how it goes.

It will need to be checked for piston to valve clearance when you are assembling it. It might be pretty close to the piston at TDC, so we have to check it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on August 26, 2014, 03:26:14 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on August 26, 2014, 04:00:05 pm
In pretty sure they can be adjusted, but you have to take it out to do it.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 26, 2014, 04:08:46 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?
That"s a good question.
At this time, it appears to be relative to the individual machine in question

If the engine has a good build, there should be no problems using it "as is".
The vibration amount varies from one bike to the next, and there actually can be other contributors of vibrations than just crank trueness, and different riders have different levels of sensitivity to the vibrations.
So, it is quite an individual situation. Much of it would be based on how well the factory built a given engine.
The OEM parts and basic design should be capable to handle the upgrade.

I will say that the improvements are not restricted to high rpms, and there is a good amount of torque increase in moderate rpms, and a relatve "ease" of how the bike seems to feel when riding, without the feeling like it is struggling. This is seen in the other Fireballs, and when you ride at 60mph, it feels mote relaxed, as if you were riding at 40.
But if the crank actually is out of true badly enough to rattle your teeth, it should be addressed because that won't be too good for a stock bike either.

All I can really say about it is that we can offer these power upgrade parts, and each owner needs to assess his own bike and situation to determine suitability of application regarding the factory bottom end.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on August 26, 2014, 04:19:11 pm
Strange -I don't seem to get excessive vibrations - I'm more concerned with the handling of the bike once you hit a ton. So far I feel relatively uncomfortable at a gps speed of 140 km per hour. I probably end up stiffening the swing arm as per GHG and perhaps look at different shocks.....not that intend riding at a ton but it would be great to comfortable cruise at 120 km per hour with some overtaking ability. mmmhh...maybe I put clip on's and rear sets on my military?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 26, 2014, 06:14:53 pm
That's good news!

No bottom end work or upgrades for this?

The elephant in the room, I guess, is the crank balance question?  Rev limiter or none, my bike's engine vibrations range from manageable up to 4000rpms, uncomfortable above 4000 rpm, to virtually unrideable at 5000rpm.  What good would the performance upgrades be?  If the alignment and balance of the UCE cranks can't be adjusted, does that add the cost of a new crank to the mix?


 My bottom end has not been touched  :o ::)   I live in the RPM range of 2800-4200.... Where it's important. AND I DO NOT hold back from reving it to it's red line. The vibes that some experience , I believe anyway. Has more to do with the way the motor is mounted.... as to how it SHOULD be mounted.  The is a reason why I pulled my bike down to the molecular level, and re mounted the motor... And NOT just to paint the frame. The motor should fit in there nicely, without stress, and without flex. I haven't had to touch or tighten any of the nuts or bolts on my motor mounts since.

 You don't cruise at 5000 rpms or 5500 rpms or 6000 rpms.   Those are area's where your peak numbers are.... and lower then that on a stock bike for sure.  You rev to your peaks ... or a Little beyond. When it's needed for power, then shift and you are still in that peak area. Race stuff, hot rod stuff or for passing.   And you would certainly not want to cruise at 5000 rpms on a stock bike, because you are beyond your peak number, and the power is falling off. Just wasted over reving and stressing the motor.



Strange -I don't seem to get excessive vibrations - I'm more concerned with the handling of the bike once you hit a ton. So far I feel relatively uncomfortable at a gps speed of 140 km per hour. I probably end up stiffening the swing arm as per GHG and perhaps look at different shocks.....not that intend riding at a ton but it would be great to comfortable cruise at 120 km per hour with some overtaking ability. mmmhh...maybe I put clip on's and rear sets on my military?
   

 Roland, these chassis perform stunning well at low speeds and top speeds when they are set up right.  They handle like a dream.. All around.  That change they made to the geometry , I think, makes them sluggish.  More weight .... your weight ! shifted forward with clip on's or clubmans only makes it better.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: mattsz on August 27, 2014, 12:57:34 pm

 My bottom end has not been touched  :o ::)   I live in the RPM range of 2800-4200.... Where it's important. AND I DO NOT hold back from reving it to it's red line. The vibes that some experience , I believe anyway. Has more to do with the way the motor is mounted.... as to how it SHOULD be mounted.  The is a reason why I pulled my bike down to the molecular level, and re mounted the motor... And NOT just to paint the frame. The motor should fit in there nicely, without stress, and without flex. I haven't had to touch or tighten any of the nuts or bolts on my motor mounts since.

 You don't cruise at 5000 rpms or 5500 rpms or 6000 rpms.   Those are area's where your peak numbers are.... and lower then that on a stock bike for sure.  You rev to your peaks ... or a Little beyond. When it's needed for power, then shift and you are still in that peak area. Race stuff, hot rod stuff or for passing.   And you would certainly not want to cruise at 5000 rpms on a stock bike, because you are beyond your peak number, and the power is falling off. Just wasted over reving and stressing the motor.

I'm not talking about cruising at 5000 rpms.

I DO hold back from reving it to its red line - as I said, it's basically unrideable there.  I don't "live" above 4000, because it's not comfortable there - I occasionally go there when I need to give it a kick, but it isn't any fun.

Not sure what you're suggesting about motor mounting - can you elaborate?  Or, is there another post where you wrote about it?  I could start a new thread so as not to hijack...
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on August 27, 2014, 01:39:27 pm
Matt -  Basically what GHG is saying is that they put these bikes together so fast and without care at the factory that sometimes the motor is slightly skewed in the frame which puts undue stress on the motor itself and that can cause the excessive vibrations.  Loosening all the motor mounts and tightening them back can sometimes relieve this stress and make for a smoother ride.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 27, 2014, 07:01:41 pm
Matt -  Basically what GHG is saying is that they put these bikes together so fast and without care at the factory that sometimes the motor is slightly skewed in the frame which puts undue stress on the motor itself and that can cause the excessive vibrations.  Loosening all the motor mounts and tightening them back can sometimes relieve this stress and make for a smoother ride.

Scottie J


  Exactly...  And if that doesn't do it?  You may have to look deeper is all. Mount holes are lined up and etc....  Hard to get a bolt in and out etc.  Nuts spinning off their bolts, cracked frames in the area of a mount etc.


I'm not talking about cruising at 5000 rpms.

I DO hold back from reving it to its red line - as I said, it's basically unrideable there.  I don't "live" above 4000, because it's not comfortable there - I occasionally go there when I need to give it a kick, but it isn't any fun.

Not sure what you're suggesting about motor mounting - can you elaborate?  Or, is there another post where you wrote about it?  I could start a new thread so as not to hijack...


  I hear ya Matt.. My point was that ,  One can't assume that there is something wrong with the crank.. Could be ?... Maybe not ?  And not saying your are now !  ;)  There is more then one possible cause for vibration. Like there would more then one reason there may be a problem with a crank.  Simple stuff first I'm thinking....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 27, 2014, 07:05:58 pm
I have always liked low bars with a forward leaning position.
Gets the weight centered much better like GHG says. Better handling and control.
And I don't think it is very comfortable to sit up and beg anyway, with all the weight squarely on my ass.
Forward lean is where it's at, IMO.
YMMV.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 28, 2014, 10:02:11 pm
Some pics of the Ace UCE head mods, the Ace valve gear, and also the modified stock rockers with ratio added.

There will be new pushrods required because the rocker mods included a cup on the pushrod interface, and the pushrods will need to have ball-ends on both ends now. Also pushrod length should be checked when the engine is built, and order new pushrods to correct length. Pushrod change comes with the territory when modding rockers. Not expensive. I will instruct the owner how to measure.

Intake fits with stock injector housing.
Exhaust fits with stock exhaust, or aftermarket exhaust.

This is the most bang for the least buck that we could pull off.

Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on August 28, 2014, 10:05:46 pm
I m pretty sure this one don't do the ton, but who's asking me. Here it is in all its glory...and a hand 'ported' exhaust port with the motor still mounted on the bike. yes, that's how these schmucks did it...with a hand held grinder with the engine still on the bike.
 
I mean this one: ---> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-C5-Bullet-Royal-Enfield-Custom-Cafe-Racer-/271588012795?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f3be832fb&item=271588012795&pt=US_motorcycles

Also, I think the owner is being disingenuous. I remember watching this on the show and they never claimed it did the ton. They even tried "race gas" and pumped up the tires for minimal rolling resistance....
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on August 28, 2014, 10:07:48 pm
Some pics of the head mods, the Ace valve gear, and also the modified stock rockers with ratio added.

There will be new pushrods required because the rocker mods included a cup on the pushrod interface, and the pushrods will need to have ball-ends on both ends now. Also length should be checked when the engine is built, and order new pushrods to correct length.



Roeland ! You lucky duck !
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on August 28, 2014, 10:10:13 pm
Some pics of the Ace UCE head mods, the Ace valve gear, and also the modified stock rockers with ratio added.

There will be new pushrods required because the rocker mods included a cup on the pushrod interface, and the pushrods will need to have ball-ends on both ends now. Also pushrod length should be checked when the engine is built, and order new pushrods to correct length. Pushrod change comes with the territory when modding rockers. Not expensive. I will instruct the owner how to measure.

Intake fits with stock injector housing.
Exhaust fits with stock exhaust, or aftermarket exhaust.

This is the most bang for the least buck that we could pull off.



This is amazing work Tom ! The pics make the importance of tip geometry ever so clear !

Once again : Roeland ! You lucky duck !
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on August 28, 2014, 10:16:32 pm
Great work Ace!  Looks really good!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 28, 2014, 10:24:50 pm
Great work Ace!  Looks really good!

I think the best part about it is that it is very affordable, as far as the stuff we have produced so far. It's the least expensive overall package we have made.
It uses the cams that came with the bike, and still retains the auto-decompressor function to protect the ES sprag system.
It retains the hydraulic roller tappets for no adjustment requirements.
Works with the stock piston, or the 535 flat-top piston.
The rocker system significantly increases the lift, and adds about 8-10 degrees to the effective duration between the .050" lift points.
It flows very close to 200 cfm.
It has a 32.8mm inlet tract, which will support 6000 rpm, if the rev limiter is re-set to a higher rpm.
Torque will be increased all thru the range, and the rpm range will be increased.

Everything about this head's specs say it should be the centerpiece of a UCE that can do The Ton, if the EFI can be re-mapped to suit the need, and a free flow exhaust package is installed. This head gives the capability, at the lowest price that I know about. The owner already has the Power Commander V and the Autotune, and some experience in mapping it. I think this bike will give us some very good performance and valuable feedback info.

Re-posting the pics, since they got pushed back on the last page.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 29, 2014, 12:27:49 am
I m pretty sure this one don't do the ton, but who's asking me. Here it is in all its glory...and a hand 'ported' exhaust port with the motor still mounted on the bike. yes, that's how these schmucks did it...with a hand held grinder with the engine still on the bike.
 
I mean this one: ---> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-C5-Bullet-Royal-Enfield-Custom-Cafe-Racer-/271588012795?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f3be832fb&item=271588012795&pt=US_motorcycles

Also, I think the owner is being disingenuous. I remember watching this on the show and they never claimed it did the ton. They even tried "race gas" and pumped up the tires for minimal rolling resistance....


 "This 2010 Royal Enfield C5 Bullet was featured in several episodes of Discovery Velocity's "Cafe Racer" TV series and has been designed and rebuilt by several of the country's top custom cafe builders. The subject of the series' "Royal Flush" features, the C5 Bullet was extensively rebuilt by Loaded Gun Customs (rearsets, electrical work) Spannerland/Cosentino Engineering (Race Tech/Hagon suspension) and J&B Moto Co. (paint, Siuzuki GS 450 E fuel tank, Yamaha race fairing, paint, rear taillight) along with Cafe Racer magazine's Blake Kelly who not only tested the Enfield on the New Jersey Motorsports Park track on the series, but who was also responsible for re-designing the fuel injection system and running gear. The Bullet's top speed has been increased to 100 MPH and brake horsepower increased as well. "



  Bwahahahaha !..... D'oh !   Sorry.   Ahhhhh.... No.   Oversizing the ports and ripping them open, adding a Power commander ?.... No.   "TOP" Custom Cafe racer builders in the country ?   Well..... I remember a certain show, at a certain booth. Where one guy brought TWO complete  Bikes that RAN !  And are still daily riders.  Oh..... And another guy who brought ONE, that didn't run and wasn't even completed.  Hey.... but the boy COULD talk .   Another great decision by..... Well  :-\    ;D      Fourteen  different outfits to build a bike ?........ PO-lease !  Someone buy that bike and fix it !!  Nice looking though I think.....

 There I go again !   Sorry Ace  ;)


 

 
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 29, 2014, 01:02:00 am

 "This 2010 Royal Enfield C5 Bullet was featured in several episodes of Discovery Velocity's "Cafe Racer" TV series and has been designed and rebuilt by several of the country's top custom cafe builders. The subject of the series' "Royal Flush" features, the C5 Bullet was extensively rebuilt by Loaded Gun Customs (rearsets, electrical work) Spannerland/Cosentino Engineering (Race Tech/Hagon suspension) and J&B Moto Co. (paint, Siuzuki GS 450 E fuel tank, Yamaha race fairing, paint, rear taillight) along with Cafe Racer magazine's Blake Kelly who not only tested the Enfield on the New Jersey Motorsports Park track on the series, but who was also responsible for re-designing the fuel injection system and running gear. The Bullet's top speed has been increased to 100 MPH and brake horsepower increased as well. "



  Bwahahahaha !..... D'oh !   Sorry.   Ahhhhh.... No.   Oversizing the ports and ripping them open, adding a Power commander ?.... No.   "TOP" Custom Cafe racer builders in the country ?   Well..... I remember a certain show, at a certain booth. Where one guy brought TWO complete  Bikes that RAN !  And are still daily riders.  Oh..... And another guy who brought ONE, that didn't run and wasn't even completed.  Hey.... but the boy COULD talk .   Another great decision by..... Well  :-\    ;D      Fourteen  different outfits to build a bike ?........ PO-lease !  Someone buy that bike and fix it !!  Nice looking though I think.....

 There I go again !   Sorry Ace  ;)


 
That's ok, GHG.
You saved me from having to say it!
 ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 29, 2014, 01:18:09 am
 Well.... That Black and neon green Classic Bonnie LOOKED interesting anyway ! :o  And the other guy should learn how to maybe replace the wheel bearings on that old "Custom" Jap bike before it goes on national TV  perhaps ?   You ..know basic stuff maybe ?!  But those two propane cylinders used as gas tanks were clever ?!  :o    Alright..... I'll stop now  ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on August 29, 2014, 05:20:25 am
Tom,

Thank you again - I look forward to the head.

Regards

Roeland
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 29, 2014, 05:46:56 am
Tom,

Thank you again - I look forward to the head.

Regards

Roeland

Shipping in the morning.
Thanks, Roeland!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on August 29, 2014, 08:23:15 am
Hi Tom,

would there be a benefit to consider titanium or alloy pushrods?

Thanks

Roeland
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 29, 2014, 12:28:16 pm
Hi Tom,

would there be a benefit to consider titanium or alloy pushrods?

Thanks

Roeland
Roeland,
IMO, a regular nice tempered chrome-moly steel pushrod is the best choice.
The other materials are lighter, but they also flex more, and can also bend.
I suppose you could use any of those materials, but the general consensus of the speed community is that steel is best. The stiffness is more important than the higher weight in this application.
I don't have any UCE pushrods here, but I think an O.D. of 5/16" or 8mm, with wall thickness of about 1.5mm would be good, and they need to have rounded ends on both ends, because the new rockers have a cup attached, and the lifter acts like a cup. So, a simple shaft with rounded ends of the right length and diameter should do.
The length should allow the pushrod to pre-load into the lifter by about a half-mm (.020") when the head is seated fully down.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on August 30, 2014, 06:42:20 am
As I recall, they clocked the bike with radar stock and then never really mentioned the final speed.  They didn't mention hitting the rev limiter so...

Pretty bike but I'd call it a mostly cosmetic project.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 30, 2014, 01:54:07 pm
As I recall, they clocked the bike with radar stock and then never really mentioned the final speed.  They didn't mention hitting the rev limiter so...

Pretty bike but I'd call it a mostly cosmetic project.

Scott
After watching them hog out that exhaust port with a grinder while the head was still on the bike, right on the "Cafe Racer TV Show" with everybody watching, like that's some kind of "normal activity", I would say that head is ruined.
I consider that a butcher job.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on August 30, 2014, 02:56:25 pm
I just tried to find that episode and was unsuccessful.  Was it that bad that they pulled the episode off of the internet?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on August 30, 2014, 03:06:09 pm
I just tried to find that episode and was unsuccessful.  Was it that bad that they pulled the episode off of the internet?
I just tried to find it, but I didn't see it on YouTube.
Don't know why.
Those guys are hacks.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on August 30, 2014, 03:09:28 pm
I just tried to find it, but I didn't see it on YouTube.
Don't know why.
Those guys are hacks.

I even went to Discovery's website and they no longer have it listed as an episode that you can watch there either.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gashousegorilla on August 30, 2014, 03:21:29 pm
I even went to Discovery's website and they no longer have it listed as an episode that you can watch there either.


  Comedy section perhaps ?  ... Really boys, don't bother, You'll only get pissed.......
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on August 31, 2014, 12:02:53 am
.......... Hey.... but the boy COULD talk ......

 8)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 29, 2014, 07:10:16 pm
We have tracked Roeland's Ace UCE head to Cape Town South Africa, and it should be arriving to him soon.
Apparently, there was a postal labor strike or something in South Africa, and it delayed this delivery by several weeks, which was out of our control. But the package is not lost, and should be delivered very soon.

Roeland has the PC-V and the Autotune module, and has experience in setting up the maps, so it shouldn't be too long until he is riding. It will be needed for him to obtain new pushrods of the correct type and length for this head, and also to check the valve to piston clearance upon reassembly. I think it should all clear without problem, but it should be checked. I recommend using a squish distance of 1mm from the top of the piston to the flat bottom of the head for best results.

So, we should be seeing some reports in the fairly near future about how he likes it.
Just giving the update, in case anyone was wondering what was taking so long.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on September 30, 2014, 06:04:48 am
Yes - we're having some postal strikes and can expect 6 weeks delays on foreign parcels. I have been waiting on some items I ordered in July and still have not received them. The cylinder head is in Cape Town since the 23rd but no further movement since. - will keep you updated.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on September 30, 2014, 05:04:38 pm
At the local post office - I will collect tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on September 30, 2014, 07:40:07 pm
At the local post office - I will collect tomorrow.

Please keep in touch with any questions!
I sent an email with a few of the major topics to watch for.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on October 24, 2014, 11:17:35 pm
At the local post office - I will collect tomorrow.

Got updates for us Roeland?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Roeland on November 13, 2014, 11:03:43 am
Hi,

I have not fitted the head yet. I'm waiting until my son has school holidays (after 03 December) as I'm currently giving him  every day a lift on the bike to the train station (the bike is my main mode of transport).
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AussieDave on November 14, 2014, 02:41:20 am
Nice one Roeland! I was giving my daughter a lift to school all last year- she loved it! Helmet and goggles and the little leather jacket -I could tell she was really tickled when we'd pull up in front of her classmates....and on the back she's like" faster daddy ,faster!"  Enfields are gold!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on November 14, 2014, 05:16:44 am
Nice one Roeland! I was giving my daughter a lift to school all last year- she loved it! Helmet and goggles and the little leather jacket -I could tell she was really tickled when we'd pull up in front of her classmates....and on the back she's like" faster daddy ,faster!"  Enfields are gold!

+1  :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: rep_movsd on December 10, 2014, 03:07:19 pm
Maybe slightly off topic, but...

Given that we have a spanking new billet head design for the UCE, designed from a clean sheet of paper and no unnecessary compromises.....

So a question for ACE...

What if you had to do it for the Iron barrel head?
What would you do given a blank slate - I understand that you push the limits with the existing GP head using Hitchcocks big head as a base, but does it make sense to make a brand new billet head design for the CI engine too?

Regards
Vivek
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 10, 2014, 11:05:50 pm
Maybe slightly off topic, but...

Given that we have a spanking new billet head design for the UCE, designed from a clean sheet of paper and no unnecessary compromises.....

So a question for ACE...

What if you had to do it for the Iron barrel head?
What would you do given a blank slate - I understand that you push the limits with the existing GP head using Hitchcocks big head as a base, but does it make sense to make a brand new billet head design for the CI engine too?

Regards
Vivek
We could make some minor modifications, and use the UCE billet head on the CI engine too. The bore and displacment, and the stud pattern, and the pushrod locations are all the same. Trim off the barrel spigot, and use a flat top piston, and it's good to go. The intake stud spacing is the same as for the manifold we use for the carb, so the carb/manifold will go right on. Maybe some adjustment for using a UCE exhaust pipe on the old frame. Head oiling would require a single external oil pipe from the normal location at the oil pump to the temp sensor threaded boss location on the head, and a plug in the oil hole in the bottom of the head.

Haven't measured it to see if it would fit under the Iron Barrel tank, or not. Probably would.

Question was a little off topic for this UCE forum, but there is your answer as I see it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on December 11, 2014, 04:20:52 am
We could make some minor modifications, and use the UCE billet head on the CI engine too. The bore and displacment, and the stud pattern, and the pushrod locations are all the same. Trim off the barrel spigot, and use a flat top piston, and it's good to go. The intake stud spacing is the same as for the manifold we use for the carb, so the carb/manifold will go right on. Maybe some adjustment for using a UCE exhaust pipe on the old frame. Head oiling would require a single external oil pipe from the normal location at the oil pump to the temp sensor threaded boss location on the head, and a plug in the oil hole in the bottom of the head.

Haven't measured it to see if it would fit under the Iron Barrel tank, or not. Probably would.

Question was a little off topic for this UCE forum, but there is your answer as I see it.

Lets stay off topic for one more moment, how about a fireball or even a GP head on the UCE?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on December 11, 2014, 12:13:00 pm
Lets stay off topic for one more moment, how about a fireball or even a GP head on the UCE?

That's also theoretically possible, but a little more complicated. We are basically trying to give GP head features in the new Billet head for the UCE, but limited to the existing GT 34mm throttle body so people don't have to buy a new injection system.

BTW, I did have a discussion with the machinist about enlarging the bore of the throttle body for special builds, and they can do it. It would cost some money to do, but shouldn't be prohibitive for someone seeking even more rpms and power.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 10, 2015, 09:53:48 pm
Update!
The ACE UCE Billet Head programming has begun!

While I was there looking at the CAD screen, we discussed the possibility of making some minor changes to allow the head to go on the regular 500 bore size as an option, instead of just the 535 only. And at this point, it appears that MAY be possible, but the valves wouldn't be quite as big as the 535 version.

Things are still in the CAD modeling phase, so I can't say anything is "set in stone" as of yet. Things could change as the CAD gets closer to the final.

Once the CAD is final, we are going to order the billets and special tooling, and start cutting heads! Once that happens, we'll have heads very soon after that. Like the next day!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 10, 2015, 10:02:30 pm
Is this a mill or a 3D printer?  One day from CNC plan to part in hand is pretty cool.

Scott
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 10, 2015, 10:03:46 pm
Is this a mill or a 3D printer?  One day from CNC plan to part in hand is pretty cool.

Scott
5 axis CNC.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on March 11, 2015, 12:51:07 am
Awesome Ace!  This is super exciting stuff!  :D

Just my 2 cents here......  I would still plan on making the full 535 version.  Initially.  Here's why.  First and foremost, you already have a lot of planning into the 535 design.  But more importantly, you are now working with new age equipment.  After you have a few 535s in use and overhead costs are cleared, it will be VERY easy to go back into CAD, redesign for the 500 cylinder with literally just a few clicks and a different valve train.  Hell, you could even do the 350 in time.  The advantage of CAD drafting and 5 axis cutting is that every head can be exactly the same, and then with a few clicks and a couple of hours time, you now have a whole new design with no more worries of new molds or anything associated with old school designing costs.

And Scotty is right.  With CAD 5 axis technology you be able to go from design, to cut, to build to bolt on in just a few days.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 11, 2015, 01:05:00 am
Awesome Ace!  This is super exciting stuff!  :D

Just my 2 cents here......  I would still plan on making the full 535 version.  Initially.  Here's why.  First and foremost, you already have a lot of planning into the 535 design.  But more importantly, you are now working with new age equipment.  After you have a few 535s in use and overhead costs are cleared, it will be VERY easy to go back into CAD, redesign for the 500 cylinder with literally just a few clicks and a different valve train.  Hell, you could even do the 350 in time.  The advantage of CAD drafting and 5 axis cutting is that every head can be exactly the same, and then with a few clicks and a couple of hours time, you now have a whole new design with no more worries of new molds or anything associated with old school designing costs.

And Scotty is right.  With CAD 5 axis technology you be able to go from design, to cut, to build to bolt on in just a few days.
The 535 is the first priority because the larger bore is always better.
We will try to accommodate the 500 bore with the most minimal change, if possible.

Yes, I have already pointed out that when the CAD is done, the rest will come along quickly after.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: heloego on March 11, 2015, 04:08:27 pm
Dude! This is exciting news!  ;D
Ever since I got my C5 I've been drooling over this! 8)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 11, 2015, 04:58:06 pm
For more in-depth update, see this link below.
You may have to scroll up a few posts.

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,20474.msg237890.html#new (http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,20474.msg237890.html#new)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Arizoni on March 11, 2015, 11:42:36 pm
For what it's worth, it takes a hell of a lot more than "a few clicks" to change a 3D solid model to redesign things.

I know because I spent over 25 years as a design engineer designing and making 3D solid models of jet engine parts and assemblies using the most advanced 3D solid modeling systems available.

I might also mention that the 3D printers make plastic parts.
The only way a 3D printer can make a solid metal part is to use the plastic part (with shrinkage allowances built into it) as the expendable mold for an investment casting mold.

The plastic part is melted out of the ceramic casting mold thru the gates and risers that must be a part of the model before the molten metal is poured into it.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AussieDave on March 12, 2015, 12:48:31 am
Arizoni you may be interested in this .... I can't find the link on my mobile but at the recent airshow in Victoria a team from monash Uni displaced a jet turbine they had designed and printed with titanium alloy using a laser process they are developing ... I think the laser fuses together the powdered metals or alloys .. In any case there was a great deal of interest show from the large manufacturing sector .... People queried the strength of the product ... From memory I think it was stronger than a forging . I'll try and find the link when I get home .
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Ducati Scotty on March 12, 2015, 02:37:26 am
Arizoni, don't you know that everything in software is easy and fast to do?  Just ask any manager who has never done any of the work ;)

I don't think I can count how many times something someone thought was a little change made me re-factor half the system while they kept asking, "What's taking so long?"
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: armando_chavez on March 12, 2015, 03:43:56 am
id like to also add that there are 3d printers that print in metal
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 12, 2015, 03:47:31 am
Okay guys, we aren't going to 3d print, and we are going to try to do what we can with the one program to cut the heads. The different valve sizes should be able to be accommodated, or at least the bore can take a notch relief for de-shrouding. We will report and advise what we recommend for 500 use.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: 1 Thump on March 12, 2015, 04:15:58 am
Okay guys, we aren't going to 3d print, and we are going to try to do what we can with the one program to cut the heads. The different valve sizes should be able to be accommodated, or at least the bore can take a notch relief for de-shrouding. We will report and advise what we recommend for 500 use.

Ace,
You probably already know all of this and have already factored it in but I thought I'd put it out there: Kevin Mahoney had mentioned at one point that the GT has "warmer" cams. I am guessing they have a higher lift than the the 500 cc UCE motor.....but I could be totally wrong. This might also influence which rockers you use, final lift, and need for notching the piston.


Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 12, 2015, 10:13:34 am
Ace,
You probably already know all of this and have already factored it in but I thought I'd put it out there: Kevin Mahoney had mentioned at one point that the GT has "warmer" cams. I am guessing they have a higher lift than the the 500 cc UCE motor.....but I could be totally wrong. This might also influence which rockers you use, final lift, and need for notching the piston.
Yes, when the GT finally was released here, I pressed Kevin on the various rumors about the differences, and he said positively that the cams are the same on the GT and UCE 500. The only differences are the 535 bore size and the larger throttle body. And the larger throttle body is only about 2mm more.

But, regarding your point about different rocker ratios, that will be possible, and so that will open up the possibility to use other cams, as long as the max valve lift stays within  its maximum limits of around .510". 
With the 1.7:1 ratio we plan as std, it will use pretty much the whole available valve lift with the stock cams(.300"in, .280"ex, lobes x 1.7). Other ratios such as 1.6, 1.52,  and probably some others could be substituted. If some other cams from another vendor have compatible lobe lifts which could allow  them to use their taller lobes with a shorter ratio and still fit under the .510" valve lift limit, then it might work. At this time, I have no info on any aftermarket UCE cam specs, so I can't comment any further about that.
The rocker ratio might also be reduced if a lower performance level might be desired by someone, for whatever reason he may have. Several options of rocker ratios provide several performance stages to be easily implemented on the same head.
So, there is some inherent flexibility from different rocker ratios that could be creatively used for different tuning strategies, and easily done.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: heloego on March 13, 2015, 01:30:35 am
Thanks, ACE. Been following that thread, too.  ;D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: nigelogston@gmail.com on March 13, 2015, 09:22:14 am
Wow   I just realised that I totally missed all the action on this string because, after being absent from the forum for  a while,  my attention was grabbed by the 535 head project string under the Continental GT bulletin and I did not look any farther .  All eyes on Roeland then.

Nigel Ogston
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 15, 2015, 12:49:55 pm
Regarding this matter about cams, our primary goal is to not need aftermarket cams, so as to minimize overall cost, and simplify the modding job to 'head only'.
However, at my last meeting with Mondello's we decided that it appears to be possible to leave some room between the roof of the ports and the bottom of the valve spring seat. So, assuming this all works out in the end, we should be able to accommodate even higher lift(on special order) up to about .600" max lift at the valve. That would open up the cam options to ones which have more lobe lift than the OEM cams, and of course would permit as much duration as any of the aftermarket cams might have. Since there is a "lift ceiling" even with our possible .600" valve lift, there will be some limit on what cams could fit in with the package, but in all cases, of course, our lift with this head would be way more than with any cam alone with std rockers.

As I previously mentioned, if a certain cam is desired, and our roller rocker multiplier ratio pushes the valve higher than the .600" maximum, it will be possible to substitute lower ratio roller rockers to attempt to satisfy the need to use that cam and still stay undet our hard lift limit. I can't say that all cams will fit into the allowable options, but it appears that we will now have much more latitude for that, AND potential for .600" lift which is as high as our max effort racing heads from the Iron Barrel GP heads and the full race Big Heads.

So, as things begin to come into focus more clearly, it seems like there will be even more potential in this Ace UCE/GT head than we first anticipated. And, if ported for use with a big carb, or a large custom throttle body, it could rev even higher for more hp.

Very exciting news. It could potentially be set up as a full race head. Or, just have much wider compatibility for other cams, and higher power potential for the street.

But standard form will still be for .500" lift with OEM cams, and ports that will fit with the OEM size inlet and exhaust systems, for easy bolt-on modding. Other options will be special order.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on March 15, 2015, 01:08:14 pm
Just a quick reference for all the Hot Rodders out there, .600 lift at the valve is the same amount of lift that a new LS6 Z06 Corvette produces in full race form at between 700-1000hp.  And the LS6 heads pretty much can't flow anything much higher than the .600 lift.  Now obviously, the UCE billet head isn't going to be breaking any Dynos with numbers.  But this does give you a good idea of how radical and over the top this new head design is going to be.     ;)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: heloego on March 18, 2015, 02:03:56 am
 :D
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on March 25, 2015, 09:55:00 pm
Billet machining!
 8)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AussieDave on March 26, 2015, 09:59:53 am
Tease ! :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: rep_movsd on April 01, 2015, 11:46:43 am
As soon as I can afford, I'll be getting a GT and trying to make a race spec bike for the track with this...
Really excited!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on April 21, 2015, 11:49:31 pm
That sounds great!

We are coming along with the project.
Here's a prototype pic of the rocker layout.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: High On Octane on April 22, 2015, 12:26:24 am
That looks fantastic!  I like the needle scaling.  :)
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: gremlin on April 22, 2015, 05:47:01 am
We are coming along with the project.
Here's a prototype pic of the rocker layout.

That looks interesting.
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on March 27, 2023, 04:04:06 pm
Hello Folks!

Reviving this old thread again!

I am nostalgic about all the work ACE did and my friend in India who upgraded his Cast Iron 500 with the ACE kit!

There are a lot of UCEs still on the streets around the world and a huge number in India!

Wondering what happened to the UCE kit! There are tuners and modders in India who have done some work on the Enfields but nobody can port the head etc. However, there will be a few shops that can replicate the ACE work and do it on scale!

Hoping to get some responses!

Thanks,
Adi
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AzCal Retred on March 27, 2023, 05:03:49 pm
Here are some current & available UCE go-fast bits:

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/35385
PART No. 90371; 4 VALVE CYLINDER HEAD CONVERSION PACKAGE, 500 EFI (UCE); £2,750.00
Designed from scratch, we have turned this pipe dream into a reality to offer a 4 valve cylinder head conversion for the 500 EFI. This has been in the works for a number of years, and we have taken this through the design stage, prototyping, testing and finally production. 
The kit comprises of a complete cylinder head with all new internals, new type of cylinder barrel, forged piston (87mm), inlet manifold, performance cams, and all the smaller components to match. The cylinder head to cylinder barrel joint is a gasketless finish.
A large increase in performance can be gained with this package, as well improving aesthetics with a twin port exhaust setup.
The conversion has been designed to be a bolt on package without any requirements for machining, but this is a major change to the bike and one to be carried out by a competent mechanic.
Each kit is hand assembled in our workshop to match your requirements and will take approximately 1 week before dispatch.
Exhaust system needs to be ordered separately, see related items below. Fuel controller not included.


https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/42809
PART No. H4V056; EXHAUST PIPE SET (2 PIPES) WITH BRACKETS, 4 VALVE B5 + C5 EFI; £219.00

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/42811
PART No. H4V057; SILENCER SET (PAIR) WITH BRACKETS, 4 VALVE B5 + C5 EFI; £292.00
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: AmBraCol on March 27, 2023, 05:05:19 pm
Thank you for reviving the thread. In a server change and a computer update and who knows what all else, I lost my links to this forum and couldn't get it to come up in searches.  Looks like there's a lot to catch up on from the past couple of years!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Crispyduck on March 28, 2023, 11:49:48 am
Hi Ace,

Thats great news. Looking forward to see what u can come up with for the UCE engine.

In terms of wish lists someone requested a way to solve the top end "clatter". I would also like to request the same thing.


Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Guaire on March 29, 2023, 02:50:25 pm
The 4 valve head belongs in a separate thread, as well as the stroker kit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIxqZFlVZJo
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Warwick on March 30, 2023, 08:24:54 am
WOW! Performance figures look impressive!!! I really look forward to seeing someone complete a bike!
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: iron.head on June 05, 2023, 10:26:01 am
My query is regarding the head porting that was being worked upon. IMHO that's the most crucial part of the performance upgrade. It seems ace.cafe hasn't been active on this forum from a couple of months :(
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Guaire on June 05, 2023, 05:47:35 pm
My query is regarding the head porting that was being worked upon. IMHO that's the most crucial part of the performance upgrade. It seems ace.cafe hasn't been active on this forum from a couple of months :(

By porting, do you mean shaping and polishing a stock head?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: GUNR on November 23, 2023, 05:08:19 am
Is the Ace head available for sale for the CGT?
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: ace.cafe on November 27, 2023, 05:02:50 pm
Discontinued
Title: Re: Ace UCE project.
Post by: Haggis on November 27, 2023, 09:04:52 pm
Hitchcocks still sell a four valve head conversion.
You need deep pockets though......
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/35385