-
Hi all,
I was told that this was the forum to join for all things RE. Just bought a 2005 65 military with a 612 Hitchcock kit. Got a good price on it, but it has some problems that I'm hoping y'all can help me with.
First- it's gear shifter is slack. Can't select any gear. Guy I bought it from was riding it when this happened.
The starter sprag seems to be out as well. I wonder if these two things are related?
Lose of power, noticed by the previous owner on the same ride when the gear shifter went out. I also wonder if this is related.
The guy I bought it from took it to a mechanic and was told it either had a leaking head gasket, or a bad piston. I don't think the mechanic did more than a visual inspection.
If it matters, the 612 kit has about 600 miles on it and the PO claims that the break-in procedure was being followed.
I don't have the bike in my possession yet, so I haven't had a chance to dig into it. I'm hoping that based on my vague description one of y'all more knowledgeable folks might have an opinion about what it might be.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
-
Welcome to the fold.
Look up Pete Snidal and order one of his service/maintenance cd's. Lots of info there! Should cover any problems you may have.
My bike is kick only and a 4 speed, so I'm just guessing here..... but the first thing I'd do is open the primary and see if anything there looks torn up. The spag can come apart violently and cause expensive parts to turn into scrap. Lots of info here on various repair or deletions of the e start. Search should find that.
The transmission shifter I would suppose is it's own problem, unless the primary chain is causing binding on the mainshaft somehow. You'll have to remove the transmission cover (behind the kick starter) to get to the shifter parts. Could be the shifter ratchet spring broke?
Composite gaskets are available to fix oil leaks at the head, but If you're just leaking at the front it could be from the rocker oil feed banjo bolt.
Let us know what you find when it gets home. And how about some pics?
-
thanks for the reply. I'll certainly post some pics, and not just of the various broken bits :)
-
ivantheterrible
First, WELCOME to the forum. :)
A few thoughts about your problems (although I don't own a Iron Barrel):
The shift on these older RE's was kind of a hodge podge when they designed it. Often, problems developed because of wear in the bushings and shafts needed to get a "right hand shift" transmission to shift with a left foot shift lever.
It may be that some retaining pin fell off. It is most likely that whatever the problem is, it is external to the transmission. The inner workings were pretty robust.
Hopefully one of the guys who owns one of the older iron barrels like yours will chime in.
The sprag clutch, located on the crankshaft left side (with rider sitting on the seat) has been a problem ever since they added it to the engine. It is accessible by removing the primary drive/clutch case cover.
Hopefully, it is just not engaging. If the sprags did fail it can dump a LOT of small, very hard pieces of metal into the bearings and primary drive chain area and these can cause a lot of damage.
Even if the clutch is in fair shape, it's a good idea to remove it. There are a lot of posts on our forum that tell you how. Just use the search engine and search for "sprag clutch replace" in the Iron Barrel section of the forum.
At 600 miles, the piston should be in pretty good shape but there is no doubt that someone has been in there frinkling around because to convert the engine to a 612 it had to be taken apart. That could result in a blown head gasket but bear in mind, the head gasket really doesn't seal the combustion chamber. The chamber is sealed with a metal to metal fit between the end of the iron cylinder and the aluminum head. The "head gasket" is really there to seal the tunnel the push rods go thru to keep the area from leaking oil.
A more likely cause of the engine loosing power is either the ignition timing is off or the valves need adjustment.
A gooked up carburetor that needs a good cleaning could also easily cause a power loss. Especially if the motorcycle has been sitting for a long time and the fuel is old.
-
Unless I missed something, a sixty five has the improved5 speed box with a good LH shift.
I wish I had that on my bike.
-
thanks, Jim. I find your post comforting! I trust all will be revealed when I lay some photos on y'all. I've been busting through all 200 plus pages of the Iron barrel section here. I'm on page 51.
Great site!
-
A very special welcome to you, Ivan Grozny! I too have a 2005 "Military," though with nothing so grand as that Hitchcock's big bore kit installed. What follows is the lowdown on mine, which may or may not help you get your own better fettled...
A previous owner had been kind enough to install an electronic ignition, for which I'm grateful for ease of maintenance and reliability's sake. I removed that sillyass crankcase breather catch can system (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,25940.msg298796.html#msg298796) which had been clogging up and causing real problems. I also put in a full-sized 7" headlamp with a natty little cap (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,7829.msg298921.html#msg298921) instead of the goofy little 5 3/4" DOT-mandated one, and also yanked out that wiring "dogbone" in the headlamp shell (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,26018.msg299654.html#msg299654) that bypassed that perfectly good lighting switch, keeping the headlamp always on (another DOT mandated goofiness). The sprung rider and pillion saddles must have been added by a previous owner, along with a handy loop handle attached atop the lefthand shock to more easily hoist the beast up onto her centerstand. I found another matching handle in the parts bin given to me by the previous owner, and stuck that on too, onto the righthand side, figuring I might be able to then use both handles' loops to securely strap gear down onto the pillion saddle when touring. I also slapped on an ultra-cheapo $16.99 sidestand (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,25801.msg297837.html#msg297837) from India, which is holding up remarkably well...keeps me from having to do the full heave-ho every damned time I stop, especially on that hill by my boats' storage lot gate. That whole "Grunt!--[Open Gate]--Grunt!--[Close Gate]--Grunt!" routine got old quick. One other super-useful addition has been an inexpensive little waterproof combination 12V USB & Cigarette Lighter Power Socket (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,25804.msg297612.html#msg297612) doodad that I've snuck onto the frame under the rider saddle, though it would fit nicely onto one's handlebars too. I use my phone's Google Maps "Route Options: Avoid Highways" trick and some Bluetooth earbuds for touring, so keeping that gear powered up is sort of "Mission Critical." Also, chicks dig USB ports.
Other than that lot, as far as I know everything else on my 2005's probably bone stock, including the exhaust system. I've still got that preposterously long original "Bengal Bottle" silencer/muffler, which I rather like the almost bizarre length and look of, and also the "pulse air" system with its inlet doodad welded into my downpipe/header near the exhaust outlet. I'm led to understand that this pulse air system (its controller's under the lefthand sidepanel) is intended to let a bit of fresh air into the escaping exhaust to help burn off any residual unburnt fuel when it reaches a kind of not-quite-a-catalytic-converter doodad that's usually sort of tap-welded into the muffler end of the downpipe, or in some cases within the muffler itself. I'd imagine all of this restrictive power-sapping and sort of heavy emissions crap would have been long since removed by any previous owner savvy and eager enough for added performance to be lobbing in a fairly expensive big bore kit from Hitchcocks. I'm perfectly OK with mine being there for now, since it keeps the roar to a minimum when I kick the beast to life. Like I've said here before, I have neighbors I like on both sides with small children and I don't want to be "that guy" rousting those kids from their naptimes just as Mom's breaking out the Chardonnay for a little "Me Time." Maybe in several years I'll do the whole "Performance Upgraydd Thang," but for now I'm pretty content just thumping along backroads in the 50s as I do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP1iTsBd11o). It's powerful and fast enough for the geezin' likes of me.
I can tell you that you were told right that this is the Forum to be on to help get your Enfield squared away. I got mine last December, and she was ailing too. Thanks largely to the clever and helpful folks here, I'm now pretty confident I could hop on her, go most anywhere, and my ass would wear out before that bike.
-
Great post bilgemaster! This does indeed seem to be the place.
-
Welcome Ivan, glad to have another Enfield rider here.
-
Thanks Ivan Vasilyevich! Where are you exactly? Your profile would only suggest that you might have spent a whole lot of time in St. Basil's Cathedral...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Moscow_05-2012_StBasilCathedral.jpg/800px-Moscow_05-2012_StBasilCathedral.jpg)
-
I don't know what is wrong with the shifter. It is not a common failure on 5 speed gearboxes, but it might be very minor.
As for the 612 kit, the parts are very high quality from Hitchcocks. I am not a particular fan of the concept of the 612 kit, but it is well made.
I assume if the mechanic suspects compression loss by naming head gasket or piston, that he took a cold cranking compression test. It would be helpful to know the reading from that test.
It is very common to get too much compression with the 612 kit, and it can cause piston problems. Cold cranking compression readings with the throttle wide open are a must to get this engine dialed in properly.
-
Thanks Ivan Vasilyevich! Where are you exactly? Your profile would only suggest that you might have spent a whole lot of time in St. Basil's Cathedral...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Moscow_05-2012_StBasilCathedral.jpg/800px-Moscow_05-2012_StBasilCathedral.jpg)
Hah, that's a good one, and totally understandable that you'd think that. But, though I am of Russian and eastern European heritage, I've never been to the old country.
-
I don't know what is wrong with the shifter. It is not a common failure on 5 speed gearboxes, but it might be very minor.
As for the 612 kit, the parts are very high quality from Hitchcocks. I am not a particular fan of the concept of the 612 kit, but it is well made.
I assume if the mechanic suspects compression loss by naming head gasket or piston, that he took a cold cranking compression test. It would be helpful to know the reading from that test.
It is very common to get too much compression with the 612 kit, and it can cause piston problems. Cold cranking compression readings with the throttle wide open are a must to get this engine dialed in properly.
Thanks for posting. I get the impression you are 'the Man', as it regards these bikes. (no offense meant to others who might also be 'the man' as if regards these bikes. )
I'm interested in what you mean by not being a fan of the 412 concept. Concept is such a precise word in this context. I'd love to hear (read) why you feel that way.
-
Thanks for posting. I get the impression you are 'the Man', as it regards these bikes. (no offense meant to others who might also be 'the man' as if regards these bikes. )
I'm interested in what you mean by not being a fan of the 412 concept. Concept is such a precise word in this context. I'd love to hear (read) why you feel that way.
Well, we have built a fair number of 612 Bullets, and also quite a large number of 535 Bullets. The main difference is the long stroke is slower revving, and the larger displacement of the 612 places much higher demand on the intake system. The typical result is that low rpm torque is improved, but max rpm is lower, and revving is slower.
Rider perceptions show that it is more at home pulling a sidecar or pulling loads, and not as lively and sporty as a well tuned 535. Nothing wrong with it, but it seems a different bike when you ride it. Hp is numerically similar to a good 535, but it rides differently.
Some of this can be offset with enlargement of the carb and intake port, to help higher rpm extension, to a point. That must be done judiciously, by someone who has experience in such matters. It will reach max piston speeds sooner than the 535, so it won't ever rev quite as high as a good 535. Good for a puller, though, if you like to ride a passenger and encounter hills often. Also it is much stronger than a stock Bullet, so you will definitely feel it.
-
Thanks Ace.
-
is your 5 speed shifting on the left or right?
-
It was converted to the right, I'm going to convert it back to the left unless I get a lot of folks advising me against it.
-
picked up the bike tonight. too dark for pictures, but looking through the maintenance records I found the following....
.rebuild engine with customer provided performance parts-replace crankshaft and bearings, piston cylinder,head, carburetor, exhaust, install electronic ignition.
convert transmission to left-side shift, convert primary to belt drive, replace drive chain.
the invoice is from rising sun cycles LLC in Harriman TN. work was done in 2013.
-
It was converted to the right, I'm going to convert it back to the left unless I get a lot of folks advising me against it.
Right side shift is much better. Shifts more positive, and the rear brake actuation is much more positive. Plus, the potentially dangerous underslung rear brake pedal that is required with left side shifting is deleted. Much better.
Besides, with the belt drive primary(which is really good and very expensive), you can't have left side shift.
Those should be enough reasons to keep right side shifting.
:)
-
sounds pretty definitive. I guess I'll see if I can switch back and forth.
-
Had a spare minute to mess with the bike. Trying to get the gearbox cover off. Remove the gear selector (right shift bike) removed the kick arm and the 6 allen screws, tap with a mallet and it starts to come off but not quite. Am I missing something?I don't want to force it.
-
I got the gearbox cover off, and the primary cover off. I was kinda hoping there would be something obvious, broke spring, cracked part, but everything looked good, at least as far as I could see. I still believe the sprag clutch is busted, and everything I've read says that it's a week link and should be deleted anyway, so I'll take that out. Any chance taking out the sprag and associated gears for the ES will solve the slack gear shift pedal problem? Or do I need to dig into the gearbox farther? I don't even know what I'm looking for.
-
The 5 speed gearbox is usually very good, though it can fail occasionally.
While you have the primary cover off, is the clutch fitted properly and working/adjusted OK? You'll have to refit the out gearbox cover to check. The clutch actuator is hooked up to the cable in the outer cover, When you pull the clutch lever it rides up over three steel balls to move the clutch pushrod via an adfjustable screw pad, make sure they're all still in place.
As Ace says the electric start can't be used with the belt drive conversion, so if the belt drive has already been fitted, the conflicting parts of the electric start mechanism should already have been removed to allow the engine drive pulley to be fitted.
Normally a failed sprag clutch would not affect gear shfiting except when the debris manages to lock up the entire primary side.
+1 on keeping it right-foot shift, you want that belt drive!
A.
-
I'm a little confused. Like i said in an earlier post, I have an invoice that clearly says 'converted primary to belt drive' but now that I've got the cover off, I see that it's a chain. The invoice is from 2013, so maybe it was switched back? Maybe i'm taking 'belt' too literally? Anyone got an opinion about this?
-
I'm a little confused. Like i said in an earlier post, I have an invoice that clearly says 'converted primary to belt drive' but now that I've got the cover off, I see that it's a chain. The invoice is from 2013, so maybe it was switched back? Maybe i'm taking 'belt' too literally? Anyone got an opinion about this?
They make a chain driven clutch that is like the belt drive clutch, minus the belt. Maybe it is that.
Or maybe they removed the belt system before selling the bike.
Also, the 5 speed gearbox needs to have the cover gasket in place to work right.
If it has no gasket, get one.
-
thanks.
I assume the 'cover gasket' is simply the gasket that goes around the edge of the gearbox cover? Is that because it needs to have oil in the gear box? Also, how can I tell if I've got the chain drive that's like the belt drive clutch?
-
The 5 speed gearbox is usually very good, though it can fail occasionally.
While you have the primary cover off, is the clutch fitted properly and working/adjusted OK? You'll have to refit the out gearbox cover to check. The clutch actuator is hooked up to the cable in the outer cover, When you pull the clutch lever it rides up over three steel balls to move the clutch pushrod via an adfjustable screw pad, make sure they're all still in place.
As Ace says the electric start can't be used with the belt drive conversion, so if the belt drive has already been fitted, the conflicting parts of the electric start mechanism should already have been removed to allow the engine drive pulley to be fitted.
Normally a failed sprag clutch would not affect gear shfiting except when the debris manages to lock up the entire primary side.
+1 on keeping it right-foot shift, you want that belt drive!
A.
this is interesting, because I know the es was used up until a week or so ago. The PO never used the kS. When I went to see it for the first time, the seller reviled to me that the ES was no longer working (sounded like the starter motor just spun) and we both assumed that it was the sprage clutch, since it's a common failure with these bikes.
So I guess there is no way I have the belt primary, huh?
-
No, stock transmission uses a duplex chain, if that's what you have you might want to ask the vendor "Where's my belt drive?"
THIS
http://www.bobnewbyracing.com/
Yes, there is a chain driven version of the Bob Newby clutch as well as the belt version (Hitchcock sells both), but belt is belt, chain is chain.
For what it's worth the sprag clutch tended to fail more on the Electra-X AVL models than the Sixty-5, but with a 612 conversion the starter has a lot more to do, and the sprag clutch clutch is more at risk from bigger bangs when the engine back-fires, especially with a higher compression piston. Using the decompressor valve when starting (AND stopping) gives the starter mechanism as much easier time.
A.
-
i feel stuck as what to do next. I started taking the primary side apart (magnet out, clutch basket out) with the intention of getting the sprag clutch out. should I carry on?
-
i feel stuck as what to do next. I started taking the primary side apart (magnet out, clutch basket out) with the intention of getting the sprag clutch out. should I carry on?
I've never been so deeply into the guts of mine, but it seems to me you might do well to press on and attend to that starter. Either repair or replace it, or remove it altogether. In either case, a proper examination seems in order, if only for safety's sake. Last thing you need is bits of random starter jetsam knocking around in there. Our hosts in Ft. Worth can provide you with whatever you may need, however you may decide. I'm happy to have a working starter, even though I have not used it in months--Now that I'm used to the beast I just don't stall out that much at lights anymore. If you do repair it, there are a few things you can do to try to keep that wonky sprague doodad happy:
- Instead of the 420 ml of 15W40 oil specified in the Owner's Manual (up to the level hole), pour in about 800 ml to a full quart or liter of Type F Automatic Transmission Fluid. This is said to better bathe that wonky sprague with just the stuff it likes, and won't do the clutch or alternator any harm. I am led to understand that a Factory Service Bulletin advising this added lubricant amount went out to dealers several years ago. I also add a dash (just about 2 ounces or roughly 50 ml) of Marvel Mystery Oil to the primary case, but then I also add it to my fuel, engine oil and use it as a desert topping and after shave. I just can't help myself. Incidentally, Type F ATF will also serve quite well as fork oil, which is just so blessedly easy to drain and change in our old "iron belly" Enfields that it makes me wonder why ALL bikes aren't so thoughtfully designed.
- If it has not already been removed, take that lighting "dogbone" connector out that I've already mentioned in an earlier posting. It just overrides the lighting switch on the handlebars, keeping them always-on. The problem with this is that one of the most frequent alleged causes for sprague clutch failure is said to be low battery power at startup, which will only be exacerbated by the drain from all those lamps. Whether I'm kicking or (rarely) electro-starting the beast, I always try to do so with lights off. That they're always so when I'm ready to start is actually thanks to my whole little shutdown routine: stop engine with decompressor, key off, lights off, kick start to top dead center (TDC) then decompress just a tad beyond that, fuel off, up on the stand, key out and into the left pocket. Then into the store to get another jug of Marvel Mystery Oil...
- When starting from cold, it's always a good idea to first free up the clutch plates by just pulling in the clutch and kicking it through a couple-few times. This is especially the case if you do use the electric start. In that case, you would still also do well to use the decompressor and kickstart to get the piston just a tad beyond TDC as if you're going to kick it, then pull in the clutch and hold it while you hit the starter button until she burbles to life...Less stress on the whole flakey rig that way.
So, just get what you have running well as she can on her own present terms and layout is my advice. Since all my other bikes have always had a right hand shift, I might have preferred that on the Enfield too. But you know what? I got used to the lefty pretty quickly, as you will with your righty, I'm sure. I certainly have no complaint whatsoever with my 5-Speed gearbox. It's as pleasant and precise as any Burman gearbox I've ever had on my Nortons. As for whether it has a belt or chain primary drive, I certainly wouldn't let that keep you up nights...Bit of a "nothingburger," if you ask me.
I do hope you get her squared away soon and with minimal fuss or expense. One thing to remember is one thing at a time! Nothing will bugger up a ride quicker and make it harder to sort out than making a whole bunch of mods or changes all at once, until when the inevitable problem does occur you just don't know where the real gremlin may be lurking.
-
thank you bilgemaster. Your posts are both informative and entertaining/funny. Loved the mystery oil riff.
-
got the primary side apart and all related starter gears removed. Nothing noticeable out of place. It's all fine on that side near as I can tell. Not a waste of time, I wanted to make it kick only, so I've removed all the related gears.
I'll put it back together and adjust the clutch and see what happens. I'm sure I'll have to dig into the gearbox.
super easy bike to work on, so far
-
Previous owner sent this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7sNugqa9Y&feature=youtu.be
I don't know if it's helpful to my quest or not, but if you see something worth commenting on, please do
-
Pop the cover off and lets see
-
Is a right shift convert 1 up and 4 down? I've read conflicting things. Seems I really need to know the answer to this. The guy I bought the bike off of said it's 1 down and 4 up, but he said the guy who sold it to him said it's 1 up and 4 down...The guy I bought it from was very new to motorcycles (this was his first bike) so I take his word with a grain of salt or 5.
-
Is a right shift convert 1 up and 4 down? I've read conflicting things. Seems I really need to know the answer to this. The guy I bought the bike off of said it's 1 down and 4 up, but he said the guy who sold it to him said it's 1 up and 4 down...The guy I bought it from was very new to motorcycles (this was his first bike) so I take his word with a grain of salt or 5.
The right side shift is 1 down and 4 up like modern bikes so nothing to re learn there.
I'm pretty sure that the 5 speed gearbox was actually designed to be right side shift and what the factory then did was run a long shaft in the same plane from right to left through the cases and out the other side. But the gear box itself is clearly more comfortable as a right side shift. I suppose it was a way to hold on to their antiquated engine lay out just a bit longer. The real benefit from switching it back to the right isn't so much better shifting; you won't see dramatic improvements there as it was pretty good to begin with, but MUCH better rear braking from having the brake lever now directly in line with the brake cam actuator.
And of course the whole thing will look 100% better.
-
Is a right shift convert 1 up and 4 down? I've read conflicting things. Seems I really need to know the answer to this. The guy I bought the bike off of said it's 1 down and 4 up, but he said the guy who sold it to him said it's 1 up and 4 down...The guy I bought it from was very new to motorcycles (this was his first bike) so I take his word with a grain of salt or 5.
The kits were available with either 1down or 1 up, depending on source.
You should look to see what you have.
If you install rearset controls, you can set the linkage to give whichever you want.
-
The kits were available with either 1down or 1 up, depending on source.
You should look to see what you have.
If you install rearset controls, you can set the linkage to give whichever you want.
how would I determine what I have? Right now the gear shifter is inoperable. Is there another way?
-
Seems I really need to know the answer to this. The guy I bought the bike off of said it's 1 down and 4 up, but he said the guy who sold it to him said it's 1 up and 4 down...The guy I bought it from was very new to motorcycles (this was his first bike) so I take his word with a grain of salt or 5.
It sounds like he never rode it. If he rode it, would he not know the shift pattern of the bike?
-
I agree,,,,,seems strange that he wouldn't know.
-
Reading thread "Feeling Stupid" I get impression that sometimes we all make really stupid mistakes. Happened to me too but whatever. Fact that the shifter does not work may be the very reason he did not have a chance to drive it. I cannot imagine how he would be able to do it. It seems to me that it may very well be a simple assembly error. I definitely would start with taking the cover off to inspect it. This mechanism is so simple it is hard to imagine what possibly could go wrong but you never know.
As far as the shifting order ... you are going to find it out immediately once the shifter works.
-
Fact that the shifter does not work may be the very reason he did not have a chance to drive it. I cannot imagine how he would be able to do it.
Damn :) I was thinking of saying that also in my Reply #39 and I fergot ???(http://)
-
I had a hot minute to start to dig into it, and discovered that the manual shows that I need a special tool to take the rocker shaft out, so I can take the carrier plate off. the 'special' tool appears to be a simple bolt through a dowel. Any feedback on this is appreciated.
Also, the shaft that the shifter peddle connects to (the part with the splines, sorry, I'm using the parts diagram from Hitchcocks and for whatever reason, they don't have that part . maybe because mine is a converted 5 speed?) spins in it's housing. Sorry so vague, I'll see if I can post a picture when my IT guy (13 year old son) gets home
-
If you have not already acted on the earlier recommendation to get the Pete Snidal workshop manual for the Bullet, available in CD or paper form, I would get hold of one NOW ;)
http://www.enfield.20m.com/buynowb3.htm
as well as an official workshop manual.
A.
-
You do not need any special tools to simply remove the tranny cover. Have you done that yet?
-
got the workshop manual. Got the Peter Snidal on order.
yes, gearbox cover off.
-
O.K so where is the disconnect?
-
I don't mean this in a smart ass way, I'm sure you're trying to help and judging by your posts in other threads I've read that you've posted in, you're quite knowledgeable but....have you read anything I've posted? The cover has been off for some time. i'm not sure what you mean by 'disconnect'. The gear shift spins when pressure is applied ( I posted a video), the rocker and associated parts seem to be fine and in place, so the next step as I see it is to remove the carrier plate so I can see if the cam plate and pawl are functioning. To get the carrier plate off I need to remove the rocker shaft (correct?) to remove the rocker shaft I need special tool ST 25153-4 'Extractor for 5-speed gearbox pipe' Clear as mud? ;)
Seriously though, if any of this is wrong, I'd be happy to be informed of it.
-
If it were mine, I would try to disassemble the carrier plate without using the special tool.
Over the years I've found that there are only a few cases where a special tool is required and most of those cases involved something that was press fit and the only way to pull it off was with some sort of tool.
Chances are, the tool they are suggesting would end up being one of those, "that was nice" tools that didn't contribute anything to the task at hand.
-
I don't see how the carrier plate can be removed without the rocker shaft coming out. I'd really like to be wrong about this.
-
If it were mine, I would try to disassemble the carrier plate without using the special tool.
Over the years I've found that there are only a few cases where a special tool is required and most of those cases involved something that was press fit and the only way to pull it off was with some sort of tool.
Chances are, the tool they are suggesting would end up being one of those, "that was nice" tools that didn't contribute anything to the task at hand.
My hunch is Arizoni's probably right, and you might well make do without, but one great thing about Enfields is that these kind of "special tools" and other gear so often seem like they're priced with that decimal point mistakenly shoved to the left when compared with the asking prices for similar doodads for other marques. Sometimes you need to wait a bit for that slow boat from "Enfield County" in India, but they get here eventually. At least, I've always been perfectly satisfied by that vendor yonder with the few orders for oddball items I've given them, with a couple-few weeks being the average time to delivery.
In the case of that special tool ST 25153-4 'Extractor for 5-speed gearbox pipe' you describe, it appears that one can be had for the princely sum of $8.78 with free shipping (https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROYAL-ENFIELD-5-SPEED-GEARBOX-ROCKER-EXTRACTOR-TOOL-GENUINE-ST-25153-4-USD-/282856196867?hash=item41db8b0b03). That's like lunch money...a light lunch...no coffee.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xgYAAOSw5PFZgYRs/s-l1600.jpg)
-
That is the tool, but isn't it just a bolt through a dowel? I assume it threads in and you turn it using the dowel. Could you just thread in a bolt and turn it with a wrench/vice grips?
-
I don't mean this in a smart ass way, I'm sure you're trying to help and judging by your posts in other threads I've read that you've posted in, you're quite knowledgeable but....have you read anything I've posted? The cover has been off for some time. i'm not sure what you mean by 'disconnect'. The gear shift spins when pressure is applied ( I posted a video), the rocker and associated parts seem to be fine and in place, so the next step as I see it is to remove the carrier plate so I can see if the cam plate and pawl are functioning. To get the carrier plate off I need to remove the rocker shaft (correct?) to remove the rocker shaft I need special tool ST 25153-4 'Extractor for 5-speed gearbox pipe' Clear as mud? ;)
Seriously though, if any of this is wrong, I'd be happy to be informed of it.
I must have missed some details. It looked to me in the video that the connecting link must have fell off to have that much motion at the lever.
-
I must have missed some details. It looked to me in the video that the connecting link must have fell off to have that much motion at the lever.
It was certainly clear from the beginning to me that "something" must have fell (sic) off the way that shifter lever was acting. That and the fact that he didn't know the shift pattern yet said he had ridden the bike.
-
Ok y'all, a bit of an update. I'm in contact with the original owner. The guy I bought it off of is a nice sincere fellow, but doesn't know motorcycles (this was his first motorcycle)
the belt drive was installed, but then removed before selling. He's offered to sell it to me for $350. worth doing?
The bike is in fact right shift, 4 down, one up, Hitchcock kit. That's why the parts diagram for my model didn't make sense.
I'm determined to figure this out. What can I do so you guys can help me help myself? Video of the gearbox with the cover off? Simple photo?
-
If it is a Hitchcock kit, the first thing I would do is to send Hitchcock an E-Mail that explains exactly what is happening with the shift lever. That is, something like,
I have a Royal Enfield 65......
The shift lever does not shift the gears when it is moved.
The lever seems to be spring loaded and it returns upward rotating at least 60 degrees from a horizontal position. It seems like it is not connected to anything except for the spring.
Can you give me an idea of what could be wrong and what I would need to do to fix it?
Also, attach the short video you posted earlier.
(This one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7sNugqa9Y&feature=youtu.be
If anyone knows how to fix it, it would be Hitchcock and from what I've heard, they are very good about answering E-Mails and answering questions.
IMO, that lever should have some sort of positive engagement with the shift plate which has the milled irregular shaped slot cut into it.
There should be a cam follower that goes thru that shift plate's slot and the cam follower should move the yokes that move the gears from side to side.
As the gears move from side to side, dogs on the sides of the gears engage or disengage from the dogs on the side of the adjacent gear. That's how the gears transmit power thru the gearbox.
(Maybe you already know all of this but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Now that it is, it looks to me like the shift lever is not engaged with the shift plate. If it was, it could not move to a position that is over 60 degrees upward when the lever is released.)
-
thanks, Jim. i think I need to post a video. the splined piece that the gear shift pedal attaches to is spinning in the teardrop piece that attaches to the gear shift linkage. There are no welds in this piece, and it's two pieces, but I can't believe it's meant to spin. https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/1613/Carrier_Plate_and_Gear_Lever_Shaft_-_5_Speed
part no. 25, except mine is different because it's the Hitchcock kit, but it's basically the same part.
-
the piece that I'm talking about is the piece in the lower left.
http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/5-Speed-Right-Shift-Conversion/18965
-
It is not meant to spin. The spines are probably stripped out on one or both pieces of the joint.
-
OK, part #25 in the diagram is the original left-foot shift item, yours will be a much truncated piece with the spines pointing the other way, rather like the part in the plastic bag in the attached photo (from ebay).
Not some right-foot shift conversions use a longer gear-shift stub which pivots on both the inner and outer gearbox casing (more support), some have a shorter piece which pivots in the outer cover only.
Ace is correct in saying that the tear drop-shaped bit should NOT be spinning on the splined piece. Normally they're welded on when they're adapted from the stock part, but this might have been held on only by an interference fit which worked loose. There are no splines to hold this particular bit in place though, the only splines are on the end where the gear-shift lever sits.
Get the tear-drop piece welded back onto the stub of the gear-shift shaft where it belongs, and there's a distinct possibility you will have a working gear shift.
Hope that makes sense.
A.
-
that's what i was thinking and I'm happy that the experts agree. I'll start with welding the two pieces together and see where that gets me. I emailed Hitchcock's about purchasing just that piece from their kit, but haven't heard back yet.
-
In other words, you have confirmed that the piece is broken off and it needs to be re-welded?
Just looking at the exploded drawing of the shifting links provided in your Hitchcock link caused me to think, If one of those pivot pins (find # 23) was not in place, the gearchange link (find # 24) would not transmit the movement of the gear lever shaft (find # 25) and it (find 25) would just rotate and do nothing.
It does puzzle me that the gearshift does rotate upward about 60+ degrees on its own though.
The only spring that moves the shift lever is find #20 and it only moves it a short distance back to a "centered" position making it ready for the next up or down movement of the foot lever.
-
The piece in the plastic bag from the picture adrian provided (the ebay one) is the piece I'm talking about. If you look closely, there's a splined end (the shift pedal attaches there) and a tear dropped piece intersecting the shaft. The tear dropped piece attaches to the shift linkage (no.24) via a pin(no.23) but before the tear dropped piece can transmit force to the shift linkage, it spins on the shaft. the tear dropped piece isn't welded to the shaft. As ace said, it's just a press fit. I think that the previous owner(in experienced guy) tried to ride it, got confused thinking it was 1 down 4 up instead of the correct 4 down, one up, got frustrated and cocked it up. Clear as mud? ;D :o
Sorry i'm not a better writer and more knowledgeable about the names of the parts (tear dropped piece? :) ) but I'm doing my best, and I think we're on to something. I don't see how something that must transmit force can spin and still work.
-
If the teardrop shaped piece is free to rotate on the shaft, that would sure do it. Or should I have said, "that sure wouldn't do it"?
A tack weld with an electric welder would fix it in no time.
I suppose its radial position wouldn't be too important but if it wasn't in the right place, your shift lever could end up a bit higher or lower than you would like. Of course, the spline teeth will allow you to get the lever close to the right place by just indexing the lever up or down 1 tooth but it might end up a bit higher or lower than a properly made one from the factory.
If you can figure out where the piece goes, finding a welding shop to tack weld it should be fairly easy. If you use the "sad hound dog eyes" approach, they might even do it for free. :)
-
I happen to know a good welder, and he has all the tools and works for free.....ME! ;D
-
I happen to know a good welder, and he has all the tools and works for free.....
Awesome! I know that guy, he always makes the best cup of coffee in town...
-
if it works, the really hard part begins.....learning to shift with my right foot and a different shift pattern! :o
-
Just plan on riding 75 miles on some back streets around your house with lots of starts and go's.
By the time you've finished that, shifting will become natural. :)
-
I test-rode a 70's Triumph with a right-hand, one-up-the-rest-down shift pattern - I was surprised how natural it felt, no drama at all. Then again, I thought the same of driving in the UK for two months on the "wrong" side of the road, which I took to readily, but when I got home again it was at least that long before I reliably kept to the right after pulling out of my own driveway... :-[
-
I rode my bullet and lightning for two years as my only form of transport. Gearing is on different sides but both had 5 speed gearboxes (changed the gearbox on the lightning from 4 to 5 speed). Strangely enough the hardest part was which foot to put down at stop. Never seemed to get it right unless on the same bike for a while.
Made for some awkward stops. Also relied a little bit more on the front brake.
fun and games :)
Warwick
-
well, it SEEMS to have worked. still feels a little strange. Doesn't really pop/snap/ nor clunk into gear like other bikes I've owned, but something is happening. I got it into neutral and first and second, near as I can tell, but definitely got it into neutral.
-
I rode my bullet and lightning for two years as my only form of transport. Gearing is on different sides but both had 5 speed gearboxes (changed the gearbox on the lightning from 4 to 5 speed). Strangely enough the hardest part was which foot to put down at stop. Never seemed to get it right unless on the same bike for a while.
Made for some awkward stops. Also relied a little bit more on the front brake.
fun and games :)
Warwick
Yup! Jamming down on the gear shift for the first few rides expecting the rear brake was this old longtime "righty's" experience when first astride my Enfield. But one quickly overcomes that old muscle memory, and now I certainly wouldn't go through the bother of swapping it. In fact, I kinda like the "down and out" to first, now that I'm used to it, and "higher up" works for me too. I further suspect that some fine day, sooner than I'd like to think, when I'm scanning the Interwebs for those sweet adult diaper deals, and can no longer ride without the kids bringing it up at those involuntary committal hearings, the "retro-youngsters", weary of their Danish zero-impact scootlets, might seek out something more "visceral" like my internal combustion single...but yet not so arcane as a righthand shifter. Most riders are used to the left.
Now that I dwell on it, I can't help but wonder if the cause of our Ivan Grozny's fancy righthand gear selector doodad failure might not have been one or more emergency stop stomps to starboard, when port would have been advised.
-
It could easily have happened if the previous owner was not accustomed to right-shift, and stomped the shifter thinking it was the rear brake.
-
yeh, I got ten bucks that say the guy before me wrecked it. Very nice guy, but the wrong bike for him.
-
I too just acquired an iron-barrel Bullet 500 ('08 Classic ES Chrome) just after Thanksgiving and am working on reviving it after a long slumber. This is a great thread for going over the bike and seeing what needs attention!
-
I too just acquired an iron-barrel Bullet 500 ('08 Classic ES Chrome) just after Thanksgiving and am working on reviving it after a long slumber. This is a great thread for going over the bike and seeing what needs attention!
Welcome to the Iron Bellied Horde of The Riders of the Archaic! You are welcome to fire up a new thread introducing yourself and your new ride. Those Chrome ones are some of the prettiest of the breed, so pictures are most welcome. That might be a good place to spell out any issues or questions you may have as you get to know each other. I believe you will also find that searching the Forum Archives will often help you solve whatever issues may come up. It was certainly crucial in helping me sort out my own 2005 "Military" Bullet 500ES, which I've now had for just about a year and 5,000 miles.
Where are you?
-
Thanks for the welcome, Bilgemaster. I drafted a nice intro thread but now it won't let me post it (Database Error). This is my bike. Current priorities are getting it started (I think the carb needs cleaning), sorting the left-hand turn signals and the taillamp, re-installing the fork shroud, painting the shocks and primary case gloss black, and figuring out if a UCE rear wheel will fit so I can buy inexpensive powdercoated rims to replace my chrome ones.
-
I neglected to mention that I also want to fit knobby tires and that I'm in Southwest Vermont (North Pownal).
-
Thanks for the welcome, Bilgemaster. I drafted a nice intro thread but now it won't let me post it (Database Error). This is my bike. Current priorities are getting it started (I think the carb needs cleaning), sorting the left-hand turn signals and the taillamp, re-installing the fork shroud, painting the shocks and primary case gloss black, and figuring out if a UCE rear wheel will fit so I can buy inexpensive powdercoated rims to replace my chrome ones.
Pretty ride! And I see that a previous owner did you the favor of upgrading to a punchier "short bottle" exhaust. One presumes they also attended to the necessary rejetting of the carbs, but then we don't know that for sure, right? Accordingly, if you're pulling off the carb for cleaning anyhow, you might do well to note the sizes of the jets presently fitted. That's the first thing folks here who really know how to dial these old gals in will be asking, followed by your average ambient temperatures, location above Sea Level, and recent Pap Smear results.
As for that "Database Error" business, the story there is that they recently "upgraded" to a new forum system here, and are still working out some of the bugs. One of the most prevalent and annoying digital gremlins is the inability of the system to now digest many common symbols and other characters--even not particularly exotic ones. If you use any symbols beyond what you would see on a U.S.-English Windows keyboard ca. 1999 (and even a couple of those, like the tilde), then when you go to <Post> the system's character mapping will just shrug and fart out a "Database Error" message. For the time being, I'd suggest copying and saving any messages you draft into Notepad prior to hitting that <Post> button, just in case you have to salvage it. And resist that urge to "Interrobang" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang) everything, OK?
(https://cdn.dribbble.com/users/493823/screenshots/2321260/interrobang.gif)
-
Welcome Gunpowder...
...and figuring out if a UCE rear wheel will fit so I can buy inexpensive powdercoated rims to replace my chrome ones.
It may fit, but the UCE drive chain being on the opposite side may give you a few extra headaches...
-
And resist that urge to "Interrobang" everything, OK?
"Tis a .gif to be simple..."
A.
-
Welcome Gunpowder...
It may fit, but the UCE drive chain being on the opposite side may give you a few extra headaches...
Just a thought: My 2005 Iron Cylinder "Military" has painted green rims and its drive sprocket's on the left. I suppose the likelihood that they're powder coated is about the same as my spokes being coated in platinum, but at least a couple of these Mean Green rides have been chopped into cafe racers and otherwise molested or blinged out with chromy fripperies. That means a few unwanted easily-paintable wheels that may be a direct swap for yours may be out there waiting for you somewhere. It's also possible our hosts in Ft. Worth might be able to square you away with a pair, or refer you to someone who can.
-
Just a thought: My 2005 Iron Cylinder "Military" has painted green rims and its drive sprocket's on the left. I suppose the likelihood that they're powder coated is about the same as my spokes being coated in platinum, but at least a couple of these Mean Green rides have been chopped into cafe racers and otherwise molested or blinged out with chromy fripperies. That means a few unwanted easily-paintable wheels that may be a direct swap for yours may be out there waiting for you somewhere. It's also possible our hosts in Ft. Worth might be able to square you away with a pair, or refer you to someone who can.
I actually was searching for Military-model takeoffs when I found the UCE wheels that piqued my interest. I haven't found a set yet, unfortunately.
-
i have seen a latest model of royal enfield but i liked old model more than new one.
-
That's a nice Iron Barrel, Gunpowder. I think I'd be pretty happy with that! 8) I have a UCE that is a keeper, but an IB would be a nice addition to the family. Looks like a clean old Dodge truck behind you in that picture too. :)