Author Topic: it's painted! (mostly...) and it doesn't run... LOL  (Read 17745 times)

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Stogierob

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HI, All

Been a while, but life and one bitter winter with no heat in the garage can put a damper on things.

She's painted and fully reassembled.  there are extra parts, nuts, bolts, and washers still on the workbench, but i'm not worrying about that right now.  The important stuff is on the bike.  as the photos show, the headlight still needs to be installed and the battery cover is getting repainted tonight. 

And she doesn't run.  she doesn't spark.  the kickstarter moves so effortlessly compared to my 08 RE that i'm not really sure there's compression.  I have a compression tool/gauge, but not the right threading to screw it in to the head.  but she's not dripping gas and she's not dripping oil.  there is a small at fluid drip, but i know i need a new gasket.  i'll accept a small drip for now.

The battery has been sitting on the charger for several months, but it's only showing 11.7V.  the ammeter needle is pointing to the 11:30 position (slightly to the left of center) and doesn't flinch when i swing the kick starter.  I probably should get a new battery, but that's not in the budget for a few months.  been checking the other posts and I'll start unplugging, cleaning, and replugging in all of the electrical connectors.  I think i have a replacement plug somewhere as the one in the bike is nice and black.

Glad to be back...
Stogierob







1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 12:32:07 am
First thing to find out is if you have compression.  Put your thumb over the spark plug hole.  You should not be able to hold you thumb on that hole while the bike is being kicked.

If you have that amount of compression, you can move onto spark check.  To get spark you will need a good battery charge.  If the horn will blow loudly, the battery should have enough charge to make a spark.  If not charge the battery. I forgot to ask, is this still points ignition or has it been changed to electronic ignition?  If electronic, a fully charged battery  (12.7 + volts) is necessary to get the electronics to work.  Eleven volts will likely not activate the electronics.

If still no spark, check the battery ground behind the battery where it connects to the frame.  The new paint may be interrupting the flow of electrons.  Get some sand paper, sand that ground connection until you have shiny metal. Check for spark again.

If still no spark check corroded points, or nil point gap.  If that ok, check to see if there is an internal short in points assembly or in coil.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:36:13 am by mrunderhill1975a »


tooseevee

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Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 01:34:52 am
HI, All

She's painted and fully reassembled. 

And she doesn't run.  she doesn't spark.

The battery has been sitting on the charger for several months, but it's only showing 11.7V.  I probably should get a new battery,

 I think i have a replacement plug somewhere as the one in the bike is nice and black.
Stogierob



        I'll bet that a new battery and new plug will go a long way toward starting that really nice looking with its new paint job bike.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Bilgemaster

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Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 01:36:06 am
That battery's a goner, and will only fuzz bucket any diagnostic maneuvers from here on in. Replace it.

That said, she's looking good...VERY 'Battle of the Bulgey'. Those brassy bits are a wee bit twee and eye catching as-is, but carry on soldier.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 01:45:10 am by Bilgemaster »
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


Stogierob

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Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 02:26:07 pm
so the order is  battery & plug and thumb check compression.  easy enough.  the horn i have sounded very weak when i tried it.  it looks like it's a newer horn, so it's probably the battery and not the horn that's busted.

The brass is coming off or getting painted.  i have the original handlebar, but wasn't going to mess with that until i had her running.  i may replace it sooner since i still have work to do anyway.

points - i think i know where that is...  hopefully there's a video somewhere that will explain how it actually works. 

Thanks!
Rob

1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Bilgemaster

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Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 03:03:38 pm
I would advise not even LOOKING at those points until there's a fresh new fully-charged battery hooked up reading at least 12.5 Volts (and not an electron less).

By the way, they're located under the round cap held on by two screws on the lefthand side between the cylinder barrel and the battery box.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:36:25 pm by Bilgemaster »
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tooseevee

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Reply #6 on: July 11, 2019, 07:14:05 pm
the horn i have sounded very weak when i tried it.  it looks like it's a newer horn, so it's probably the battery and not the horn that's busted.


        A battery can blow a horn or even light the lights and still come nowhere near cranking the engine over fast enough or long enough to start it.

         And cranking with a weak battery is no good for the starter.

          Get a good AGM battery and a tender.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Bilgemaster

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Reply #7 on: July 11, 2019, 07:41:02 pm
        A battery can blow a horn or even light the lights and still come nowhere near cranking the engine over fast enough or long enough to start it.

         And cranking with a weak battery is no good for the starter.

          Get a good AGM battery and a tender.

It seems our man Stogierob is lucky enough not to have one of those flakey starters.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


tooseevee

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Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 09:57:52 pm
It seems our man Stogierob is lucky enough not to have one of those flakey starters.

       That's right. Duh ??? He's kick only.

        Carry on.
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Stogierob

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Reply #9 on: July 11, 2019, 11:42:49 pm
and the quest for a battery continues...  my current battery is an Exide 12XR5L-B, which i have learned is a 5AH battery.  the only '12' batteries on the market in the local area (and online so far) are 10AH batteries and are entirely too big. 

So my 'i have so much to learn' question of the day is:  if the bike is kick-start, and the stator recharges the battery while running, what is the battery actually used for on the bike?

Thanks!
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Arizoni

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Reply #10 on: July 12, 2019, 01:12:06 am
IMO, if the bike is kickstart only, a 5AH battery should be enough.
About the only big drain on the battery is the headlight and if yours is one of those RE's that uses a AC power from the alternator to light the headlight, it won't even have to do that.

By the way, if your RE has a switch to turn on the headlight, turn it off while your trying to figure out what the problem is.

For what it's worth, also IMO, your 11.7 volt reading from the existing battery should be more than enough to make the ignition coil fire a healthy spark at the spark plug.  That assumes the main fuse is good and all of the wiring connections are making good contact.

About those ignition points:  After you remove the cover you should see the points.  They will have a spring on them and a little fiber block that is rubbing on a cam on the shaft.  An electric wire will be attached to them along with a wire coming out of a little tiny "can".  That can is the condenser.

You seem to have a volt meter so, with the ignition switch turned on and the kill switch in the "run" position, checking the voltage between the nut that holds the wires on the points and ground should show almost a full battery voltage reading.  If it doesn't, there is a bad connection somewhere between the battery and the points.  It could be a fuse, a bad wire connection or a bad ignition switch.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


Arizoni

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Reply #11 on: July 12, 2019, 08:42:54 am
I messed up in my last post.
With the points closed as they are most of the time you won't see any voltage between the wire nut and ground.  It is only when the points are open that you will see the full battery voltage.
The points should open when the crankshaft is rotated to raise the fiber block that is riding on the points cam or, you can pry the points open and place some sort of a non conductor between the contact surfaces.

Sorry about that.
Jim
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Adrian II

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Reply #12 on: July 12, 2019, 06:19:35 pm
Quote
Get a good AGM battery and a tender.

That's still good advice from tooseevee, even for smaler (non-electric start) batteries.

Quote
what is the battery actually used for on the bike?

Easier starting and parking lights!

A.
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Stogierob

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Reply #13 on: July 13, 2019, 12:42:14 am
battery has been ordered....

already have a decent quality battery charger/conditioner...

didn't open the points... yet...

thumb test on the cylinder did prove that there is compression...

now the waiting... 

Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Stogierob

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Reply #14 on: July 23, 2019, 10:34:51 pm
battery arrived and was installed. 

didn't start.

checked points.  loose/incorrectly installed wire now has a new terminal end and is reattached.

Confirmed that there is spark when the bike is kicked.  One lonely spark per kick.

still doesn't start.  I do get something that sounds like a solid wheeze from the exhaust like it could be inspired to start. 

I"m making the horrendous assumption that since I see spark, the ignition switch and kill switch are functioning normally.

So what is next on the list? 

and the tail light (new/replacement/retro-style) is on when the key is turned.  it does not get brighter when the brake is applied.  should it be off until the brake is applied?  should it be a low/high light for when the headlights is on?  speaking of headlight, there isn't a bulb and that switch is off. 

Thanks!
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Arizoni

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Reply #15 on: July 24, 2019, 01:38:24 am
If it has spark, fuel and compression it must be close to starting.

My next plan would be to make sure it is getting some fuel.
Assuming some is in the carburetor bowl I think I would use the method I had to use on my old lawn mower.
That involved sticking one end of a piece of small vinyl tubing down about an inch (25mm) under the gasoline in a gas can and putting my finger over the open upper end.  I would then stick the gas filled end into the mouth of the carburetor and remove my finger from the upper end. 
Once "primed" like this, one pull on the starter rope would fire it up every time.

You might try something like this after getting access to the mouth of your carburetor.
If you don't want to try this, you might put your hand over the mouth of the carb and then kick the engine thru a few attempts to start it.   Don't worry about fixing the fuel/air mixture until you actually get it to run for at least a few "chugs" before it dies.

If the engine "kicks back" badly when you try to start it, the ignition  points might be out of time.  It's better for the kick starter and for your leg if the timing is slightly retarded so it's firing at top dead center or even a little after TDC.
Jim
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 04:36:21 pm
When you say it has "spark", does that refer to the points or at the spark plug, with its threaded part held against the head or cylinder? Just wanna be clear.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


ddavidv

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Reply #17 on: July 25, 2019, 01:19:02 pm
Spark at the plug, so there is ignition.
Any fuel getting into the cylinder? Can you smell gas or does the plug get any dampness on it? If not, no fuel.

Maybe give the carb a 'rap' with the handle of a screwdriver a few times to see if the float is stuck.
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Stogierob

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Reply #18 on: August 02, 2019, 12:07:52 am
UPDATE:

Points (point?) seems to be doing the right thing.  we (youngest is actively involved in this project) managed to get it to thut, thut, thut, thut this afternoon.  I had the plunger on the carb up for a while.  when it put it down, the bike seemed to want to start.  we did also get one backfire.

Other problems we encountered - she doesn't want to shift through the gears.  Youngest got it into 4th a few days ago.  today, we couldn't get it back to neutral.  somehow, he managed to get it back to neutral after about five minutes of trying.  even he's not really sure why it shifted.  and I'm not sure this is a problem, but sometimes the kickstarter just swings through while other times it's clearly building compression and wanting to start.

What should I be looking at next?

Thanks
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


mrunderhill1975a

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Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 06:09:41 pm
I would check timing. I use a static light, but the method in the link below would also work.

https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/pictures/content403/bullet_ignition_timing_points_16-08-17.pdf

Concerning the shifting problems, if the wheel is not turning, it is sometimes difficult to get the gear box to shift, I wouldn't worry about shifting until you get the engine running.

The info below was from Kevin Mahoney in a 2007 post on this board:
"Starting the Royal Enfield Motorcycle

This procedure really works.  Anyone large or small, novice or experienced can do this, it is REALLY IMPORTANT that you follow the instructions they do make a difference. It will take longer to read this than it will to do the procedure, but please read it all.

1. Make certain that the "kill" switch is in the "on" or "run" position. This switch is located by the throttle, on the right side of the bike. (Sounds dumb, but I have missed this step more than once myself).

2. Turn the fuel tap to the "on position". Make sure that there is plenty of fuel in the tank. When the arm of the fuel tap is pointing toward the ground it is on. When it is horizontal it is in the "off" position. When the arm points upward it is in the "reserve" position.

3. If the engine is cold, push down on the gold colored choke lever. It is located on the right side of the bike about where your knee is. On the Lean-Burn engines such as those found in the Electra the choke is a knob that needs to be pulled out.

4. Engage the compression release. This is the lever on the underside of the left hand handlebar switches (pre-1999 1//2), or just to the right of the left hand handlebar switches.. It is engaged by pushing it forward (pre-1999 1/2) or pulling it toward you (all other models).

5. With the compression release engaged, kick the bike through 3 times. This "primes" the engine. (Optional, but I think it helps a cold engine)

6. Turn the ignition switch on by turning the key to the right.

7. With the switch turned on, choke on, the throttle closed, and the compression release engaged, gently move the kick start lever and note the movement of the ammeter gauge. (*For those of you with Electronic ignition bikes like the Electra see below). It will deflect to the left and then come back to the center. As you slowly turn the engine over, watch for the ammeter to deflect to the left. Now move it a little more until it just comes back to the middle. This middle position means that the piston is poised exactly where it should be for starting.

8. Now the moment of truth. Release the compression release lever and kick the bike through. When kicking, strength is not the key. A small woman can start the bike with the correct technique. The key is a long kick with good follow through. Kick it until the top of your shoe hits the foot peg. 9 times out of 10,the bike will start in the last 3" of movement.

9. If the engine is hot from being very recently run, you can omit steps 3, 4, and,5 .

10. If the bike doesn't start, repeat steps 7 and 8. (If bike is "hot" do not use the choke, if it is just "warm " you may need it) You MUST position the piston properly through the use of the ammeter.(for all non-electronic ignition bikes) A natural inclination (especially if people are watching you) is to start kicking blindly without using steps 7 and 8. This is a route to total frustration and a complete loss of your manhood.( or womanhood ).

If the bike doesn't start after 3-4 kicks
I use a rule of 4, that is, if it doesn't start after four kicks, (adhering tightly to the steps above) then do something different. If it doesn't start in four kicks, then put the choke in the "off" or up position and try another 4 kicks. If that doesn't work, open the throttle all the way, choke on, and try it. Then if it still doesn't start, try throttle full open, choke off. This usually does it.

*Note for Electra or owners of bikes with electronic ignitions
With an electronic ignition the ammeter will not dip as stated above because it has no ignition points to draw current. Instead you want to move the kickstarter so that the bike is at the top of the compression stoke (not the exhaust stroke). With the decompresser open you will hear a rush of air coming from the decompresser as the piston rises on the compression stroke. An alternative method it to leave the decompresser shut and kick the bike until you meet stiff resistance. Then you must open the decompresser for a moment to relieve the pressure before you attempt to kick start the bike."
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:22:49 pm by mrunderhill1975a »


Stogierob

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Reply #20 on: August 02, 2019, 09:40:09 pm
I'll try that. 

general question for the audience - how far does your kickstarter move before the pawls engage?  I have a non-swivel foot rest on mine and i feel like the kickstarter needs to almost be resting against the back of my leg to get a decent amount of engaged travel from the kickstarter.

Thanks
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Bilgemaster

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Reply #21 on: August 03, 2019, 03:17:24 pm
If I understand the question correctly, I'd guesstimate that from it's top resting position at maybe 56 or 57 minutes, if it were a clockface, mine might engage with the pawl at anywhere up to 4 or 5 minutes of downward movement. It varies.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


tooseevee

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Reply #22 on: August 03, 2019, 10:06:18 pm
If I understand the question correctly, I'd guesstimate that from it's top resting position at maybe 56 or 57 minutes, if it were a clockface, mine might engage with the pawl at anywhere up to 4 or 5 minutes of downward movement. It varies.

      Same here (just a few minutes before midnight) when I use either the straight or the swivel (UCE) kicker. And you want a smooth kick that ends in front of the foot peg as far forward as your leg will allow.

        Yes, I feel the (straight) kicker on my leg when I'm riding. I use it sometimes for extra leverage in a back-up sit choo ashun.
Oh, BTW I rode 20 miles Monday. It all finally fell together. It hurt AWE full, but that's not news :)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 10:42:32 pm by tooseevee »
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Bilgemaster

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Reply #23 on: August 04, 2019, 12:07:41 am
[...Snip!]       
Oh, BTW I rode 20 miles Monday. It all finally fell together. It hurt AWE full, but that's not news :)

That's great! Good to hear you're getting out and about on your superb old AVL.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


Stogierob

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Reply #24 on: August 04, 2019, 03:50:37 am
If I understand the question correctly, I'd guesstimate that from it's top resting position at maybe 56 or 57 minutes, if it were a clockface, mine might engage with the pawl at anywhere up to 4 or 5 minutes of downward movement. It varies.

My kickstarter is at about 11 o'clock and the pawls don't engage until 9 o'clock.  i hope this isn't something I need to address now.  i've looked at the instructions to replace a pawl and that's just a lot more than I want to get into right now...

Thanks
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Bilgemaster

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Reply #25 on: August 04, 2019, 04:18:20 am
That should be enough to get her sputtering to life, but if you can remove and reset the kickstart lever to a little closer to 12, that might work better for you. It's possible that with a little runtime and resultant flinging of the lube goop around in the case that that pawl assembly may loosen up and start catching a little better and sooner. In fact, most everything will likely benefit from having the cobwebs blown out over a couple-few hundred miles.
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Stogierob

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Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 12:43:05 pm
bilgemaster - that is what I am seriously hoping for...

Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


tooseevee

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Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 02:17:08 pm
My kickstarter is at about 11 o'clock and the pawls don't engage until 9 o'clock.  i hope this isn't something I need to address now.  i've looked at the instructions to replace a pawl and that's just a lot more than I want to get into right now...

Thanks
Rob

     You've got to move your kicker (at the knurled shaft) to a more straight up position when at rest. It's not enough of a kick to have it engage at 9:00 o'clock. At least it's not with an engine that doesn't want to start.

      At least then that 9:00 engage point might be closer to 10:00 or 11:00.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:32:41 pm by tooseevee »
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Stogierob

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Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 11:27:23 pm
IT STARTED!!!

and it actually stayed running for more than a little while.  there was lots of white smoke for the first five minutes, but that went away.  several bolts need to be tighten back up now that they rattled loose.  and after it had been running for a while, it would idle for about 40 seconds before it would die.  a little starter fluid was involved to get it turned over, but when it would stall it would kick over without anything other than a bit of throttle.

the kick starter is now at almost 1 o'clock.  it engages at 11 o'clock. 

Again, thanks to all who chimed in!

next post will be for help in identifying the bolts that attach the exhaust down pipe to the bike just in front of the engine.  no clue what happened to those bolts when it remove them from the bike.  i'll include picts.

StogieRob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


Arizoni

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Reply #29 on: August 07, 2019, 12:28:55 am
Ah!  The wonders of a starting fluid. :)
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


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Reply #30 on: August 07, 2019, 05:49:45 am
About those rattle-loosening fasteners: A good habit to get into might be putting a drop or two of that Harbor Freight Medium No. 42 threadlocker stuff onto every nut or bolt or screw you henceforth wrench on. It's not a magic elixir, but it's cheap and really will help keep those fasteners where they belong. A bottle in the tool pouch and a few strategically handy around the shop should only set you back about 10 bucks. I also tend to give any oily threaded bits a little love with an alcohol swab swiped from the doctor's office for good measure beforehand, but that's just me.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


Stogierob

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Reply #31 on: August 07, 2019, 10:05:32 pm
tool kit!  right!  i bought a tool roll several months ago.  time to get that kit into the bike's toolbox...  i'll add some blue thread locker to the kit. 

got the bike started again today.  seems like insufficient fuel flow is the next hurdle.  we can get it running if we keep the throttle at 1/3-1/2 open while kicking the shit out of it. (20-40 kicks)  thankfully, youngest is 17, strong (not that strength is involved in kicking a 350), and determined to get that bike running as well...

Stogierob
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #32 on: August 07, 2019, 11:22:37 pm
If you haven't cracked open the carb for a good cleaning of its bowl and jets, that might be a good idea, seeing as how long it's been sitting. Or, seeing as how you're already at least getting some  life out of her, you might just try "The Sea Foam Shortcut Purge":

  • If it's more than a month old, empty whatever gas is in the tank
  • Dump in about 2/3 of a bottle of Sea Foam
  • Turn the fuel tap onto "On" (not "Reserve")
  • Fill fuel tank with nice fresh gas, turn off fuel tap, and come back tomorrow
  • Fire her up and commence running through that tankful, and when you tank up again pour in the remaining 3rd of that Sea Foam

If you're already getting any life out of her at all, then that initial stronger concentration of Sea Foam and gas marinating in the carb bowl overnight will likely loosen up any cruds just enough for the rest of the more dilute Sea Foam to rinse them away pretty well. Don't be alarmed if there seems more white exhaust smoke than usual. That is normal. After the Sea Foam purge treatment, an ounce or two of Marvel Mystery Oil with every fill up will serve to more gently keep the innards clean. It's also a great dessert topping!

This Sea Foam overdosing thing is a pretty well known "easy fix" for irritable-running bikes, especially after a long winter layup. Berry's Chemtool B-3, Techron, or similar fuel additive solvent-cleaners might also do the trick, but Sea Foam's most often mentioned as the cure for those laid up cloggy ethanol-spew blues, which sounds just like what you may be dealing with.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 11:36:09 pm by Bilgemaster »
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ddavidv

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Reply #33 on: August 08, 2019, 03:59:38 am
Check you have adequate fuel flowing from the tank when you turn the feed on. Could be possible the screen in the shutoff valve is partially blocked or the valve itself.
Tap the float bowl with a screwdriver handle to loosen a stuck needle valve.
It shouldn't take any throttle application to start in my experience but I also have a Keihin replica carb on mine.
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tooseevee

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Reply #34 on: August 08, 2019, 12:18:41 pm
Check you have adequate fuel flowing from the tank when you turn the feed on. Could be possible the screen in the shutoff valve is partially blocked or the valve itself.
Tap the float bowl with a screwdriver handle to loosen a stuck needle valve.
It shouldn't take any throttle application to start in my experience but I also have a Keihin replica carb on mine.

         Your last sentence is also true on my AVL with Mikuni TM32. It does not want the throttle touched AT ALL to start, kick OR electric, or it will have a hissy fit  :). It does NOT want the throttle touched until it has run 30 or 40 seconds, then I can rev it a bit if it makes me feel good. The revs increase a bit as it warms up and at the first stop sign it wants its idle speed screw tweaked down just a hair. It never shows ANY sign of dying. 
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Stogierob

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Reply #35 on: August 12, 2019, 12:52:43 am
we're down to 20-30 kicks to get the bike started. 

i did the seafoam soak overnight and i'm burning through a 50/50 tank of gas and seafoam.  i have to keep the throttle open a bit if I leave the 'choke' button up on the carb, or i have to keep the throttle open more than a bit if the button is down. 

the shifter will upshift positively, but downshifts are non-existent.  i have to get slow enough to use the neutral lever as a reset, then i can decide where to go from there.  not an elegant setup, considering the kickstarter is almost covering the return to netutral lever.  remembering that 1st is up, and all other gears are down is still a bit of a challenge.

progress continues...

Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


ddavidv

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Reply #36 on: August 12, 2019, 01:45:09 pm
If you were to give a little shot of starter fluid into the intake would it start right up?
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Stogierob

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Reply #37 on: August 12, 2019, 06:35:20 pm
If you were to give a little shot of starter fluid into the intake would it start right up?

that's how we got it running in the first place!   i'm trying to learn the bike and figure out what it wants from the humans who will ride it.  since it will start without starter fluid, we're happy to just crank away....
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Adrian II

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Reply #38 on: August 12, 2019, 08:55:15 pm
Has the carburettor been stripped and THOROUGHLY cleaned in toluene and/or left for a good while in an ultrasonic cleaning bath. The starter side of the carb will have not only the pilot/starter jet which can be clogged with crud but several VERY tiny drilled passages for air and fuel which can also get clogged and make starting hard or impossible.

When stripping the carb don't lose and tiny washers or gaskets. You can buy service kits for the VM24 and 28 Mikarbs at you-know-where.

A.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Royal-Enfield-350CC-VM-24-MIKCARB-Overhauling-Kit-GEc/153278364984?epid=0&hash=item23b01a3d38:g:5a0AAOSwhyRbztPt

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tooseevee

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Reply #39 on: August 12, 2019, 09:08:59 pm
we're down to 20-30 kicks to get the bike started. 

Rob

     That's silly. You know there's something ELSE wrong. Doesn't accomplish a damn thing to just keep kicking 10, 20, 30 times.

       C'mon. Get a grip :)
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Stogierob

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Reply #40 on: August 13, 2019, 01:25:18 am
     That's silly. You know there's something ELSE wrong. Doesn't accomplish a damn thing to just keep kicking 10, 20, 30 times.

       C'mon. Get a grip :)

i'm far from saying this is either normal or that i'm done diagnosing the problem.  i'm just thrilled that i'm making progress.  the latest issue is that the seafoam cleared the overflow tube in the carb bowl and all of my gas drained on to the garage floor.  thankfully, it was only about 10 ounces.  next project will be confirming if the floats are actually closing off the fuel needle in the bowl.

Rob
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #41 on: August 13, 2019, 06:36:20 am
Yeah. I think you may be on the home stretch. It's probably just some crudlets in the needle valve assembly inhibiting smooth operation, though it could be a sticky float for the same reason. Short of pulling off the whole carb for a thorough cleaning and maybe rebuild, it may at least be time to just drop the carb bowl for a good blast of it and every nook, cranny and jet you can reach in there with some spray carb cleaner. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!!! That spray shit will ricochet off in every which direction, and will do those baby blues no favors.

By now that Sea Foam may have hopefully softened up any cruds in there enough to be able to blast-rinse them away short of doing a full carb teardown...Though that certainly wouldn't be the worst  idea anyone's ever had. No, that might be that remake of Arthur  with Russell Brand. That was awfully hard to watch.
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tooseevee

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Reply #42 on: August 13, 2019, 12:30:17 pm
Yeah. I think you may be on the home stretch. It's probably just some crudlets in the needle valve assembly inhibiting smooth operation, though it could be a sticky float for the same reason. Short of pulling off the whole carb for a thorough cleaning and maybe rebuild, it may at least be time to just drop the carb bowl for a good blast of it and every nook, cranny and jet you can reach in there with some spray carb cleaner. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!!! That spray shit will ricochet off in every which direction, and will do those baby blues no favors.

By now that Sea Foam may have hopefully softened up any cruds in there enough to be able to blast-rinse them away short of doing a full carb teardown...Though that certainly wouldn't be the worst  idea anyone's ever had. No, that might be that remake of Arthur  with Russell Brand. That was awfully hard to watch.

     His carb needs a full teardown and cleaning. I think we all know that. All the fuel draining out on the floor is just another! indication. And all the intake rubber replaced and resealed also. Probably.

      I remember years ago (so long ago I don't even remember which carb it was) the bike was just not right. It was "OK", but something was just not right.

      I dropped the bowl, the float valve was working exactly right, pulled all the jets from underneath, blew them out. Pulled the mixture screw, blew it out. Back together - same thing!

      Dropped the bowl, pulled the jets AGAIN. This time I got in bright sun with a a loupe and finally saw it! A tiny piece of grit was jammed in the bore of the Pilot Jet and my best blow job had done nothing to move it.

        I striped a piece of multi-strand steel electrical wire down and got it to move with one of the strands.

         Problem solved.

 

RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


Bmadd34

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Reply #43 on: August 13, 2019, 03:57:53 pm
I have found that the easiest tool (and most accessible) is a bread tie (The tiny plastic coated bit of metal wire that holds your loaf of bread closed) also called a "twist tie", depending on where you're from. Simply peel the plastic of about an inch or so from one end and go to town. Got a jet with a slightly larger diameter, fold the tie in two. Easy and efficient. Another trick to use would be to remove the air filter bits and hold your hand over the intake while you (Or preferably someone else) kicks it over a few times. A lot of times this will clear the slow jet pretty quickly, depending. Give these a go and let us know what comes about.
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Adrian II

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Reply #44 on: August 13, 2019, 04:34:47 pm
And if the crescendo of replies saying "you probably need to give your carb the cleaning-out of its life" proves to be correct, flushing any cr*p out of the tank and fitting an in-line fuel filter should prevent the need for a repeat performance.

A.
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Stogierob

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Reply #45 on: August 14, 2019, 06:18:27 pm
And if the crescendo of replies saying "you probably need to give your carb the cleaning-out of its life" proves to be correct, flushing any cr*p out of the tank and fitting an in-line fuel filter should prevent the need for a repeat performance.

A.

Crescendo would be very appropriate.  i, however, will be disappointing the audience as i would rather deal with a mostly running bike for the next 6-8 weeks than struggle with completing a carb overhaul.  This is the reenactment season for me.  I've an event this weekend and two events in september.  Then, if just banging away at it hasn't helped, i'll do the carb rebuild.  i also found a locking petcock/fuel tank filter, which will be ideal for eliminating the ignition key.  i'll still need a battery cut-off somewhere, but i can figure that out this winter.  And the tank has been cleaned already.

Thanks!
Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...


ddavidv

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Reply #46 on: August 16, 2019, 03:28:35 am
If you can fix a toilet you can rebuild a carb. They are just toilets for fuel. I don't know why everyone fears them so.
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #47 on: August 16, 2019, 04:21:53 am
You haven't seen MY toilet. Be afraid...Be very afraid. It'd gag a buzzard.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:55:57 am by Bilgemaster »
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Stogierob

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Reply #48 on: August 23, 2019, 12:34:25 am
If you can fix a toilet you can rebuild a carb. They are just toilets for fuel. I don't know why everyone fears them so.

because my toilet doesn't have two jets, three screws, a choke pin, and throttle cable, and if the seven things aren't configured just right, won't flush or refill properly!!!  LOL

I cleaned the jets and she now idles.  she still needs a generous turn of throttle to start, but I can deal with that for the next few weeks.

Rob
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Arizoni

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Reply #49 on: August 24, 2019, 02:41:32 am
A throttle cable on a toilet.  Now, that's an interesting thought.
If you got a turd crossed, you might just grab the throttle and give it a mighty yank and.... BOOM! it would break free.

Of course the splash of the cold water might be more than unpleasant but at least the problem would be solved. :)
Jim
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ddavidv

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Reply #50 on: August 25, 2019, 12:19:02 pm
So she idles now once started/warm? Excellent.

If it needs throttle to start when cold then your choke or richening device isn't working properly. If it still needs throttle to start when hot something is still amiss.
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Stogierob

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Reply #51 on: September 28, 2019, 05:03:07 pm
the carb rebuild kit has been ordered.  haven't watched a video on this project yet, though.  also replacing the kickstart dog and return spring. 

bike ran like a champ at the two reenactment events I got her to.  had to start at wide open throttle, but she started and I didn't care.  tinkering with the idle speed screw got the bike running without having to constantly blip the throttle.

progress report once the deed is done!

Rob
1977 RE Bullet 350 that is slowly being converted to resemble a WWII era bike...