Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: gashousegorilla on November 29, 2018, 03:53:00 am
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Once a season at least ! Just a reminder.... it's a good thing to do . It can certainly avoid ruining your day with catastrophic failure. If the engine sprocket/sprag retaining bolt spins out, it could wedge itself under the primary chain and snap it sending it through or cracking the case and or left side cover. It can also lock up the rear wheel if it gets wedged under the primary chain... NOT GOOD ! We have seen this before, and the factory updated the torque spec and bolt sometime ago. The torque spec NOW is 48 ft lbs, with loctite 270 applied. ME ? ..... I put red Loctite on it and slam that bolt in with a impact gun ! :o The bolt thread's into the crankshaft in a clockwise direction.... however.... the crankshaft and engine sprocket/ sprag gear rotate COUNTER clockwise on the left side. This can tend to loosen the bolt. Another example that I found, after noise was heard behind the left side cover. The sprag gear was loose , and walking in and out a bit on the crankshaft , making a chain slapping noise on occasion......
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Ooh! Good advice, GHG! :o
Odd that they wouldn't have included some sort of locking system for the bolt.
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Mr. Gorilla, why is your chain so clean? What lube do you use? Thanks for the really good tip.
9fingers
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Ooh! Good advice, GHG! :o
Odd that they wouldn't have included some sort of locking system for the bolt.
Or at least tap a left handed thread on that side of the crankshaft already ! Geez... I guess telling people to just tighten the bolt more is a cheaper option for them ?! :o
Mr. Gorilla, why is your chain so clean? What lube do you use? Thanks for the really good tip.
9fingers
That is the primary chain, which lives behind the left side cover... it runs in a bath of motor oil. ;)
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While not as popular as oil threads, fastener threadlocker threads can be just as exciting.
As you try, like me, to choose the correct threadlocker from Loctite or Permatex you will enter a wilderness of product evolutions and corporate handoffs.
Putting on my fire suit, here's an overview:
Blue: medium strength; disassemble with hand tools
Red: high strength; may or may not require high heat to disassemble with hand tools
Purple: low strength; disassemble with hand tools
Green: wicking (penetrating already assembled fasteners); medium/high strength; not sure about disassembly
As you examine the product comparison charts, be careful to note publication date. For instance, Loctite 270 seems to be a recent introduction, perhaps related to the Henkel handoff.
So which Loctite to use? My recommendation if your sprag bolt has not loosened, then Loctite 270 after cleaning and proper torque including 24 hour cure period should be sufficient. If your sprag bolt has loosened itself as shown in Mr Gorilla's photos then I recommend a Loctite that requires heat for removal (eg Loctite 263) because the threads are probably a bit worn from vibration and need the extra help.
I noticed the bolt head doesn't have a strength/grade marking. Finding a marked substitute with a shoulder is a consideration. And maybe adding a Nord lock washer? If anyone goes down this path, please post OEM and p/n.
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How anyone would think they can improve on Enfield's self aligning drive sprocket technology with a few simple drops of thread locking compound is beyond me!
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What if a solid physical stop were attached to the inside of the cover? ???
Maybe drill and tap through the cover, and run a large bolt in, cut to length with thread lock and sealed, adjusted to leave maybe 1/8" clearance between the new cover bolt/drive sprocket bolt stop, and drive sprocket bolt? ::)
That might prevent the drive sprocket bolt from ever backing too far out. You probably could even mount a sensor or switch to the new stop to let you know your sprocket is falling off again! :o
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Narada -- Grant was right: "I will be done. That's it. I will just leave it alone. Really. You can trust me... ;)" How soon forget our promises. That what owning an RE does to you.
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That is the primary chain, which lives behind the left side cover... it runs in a bath of motor oil. ;)
Shows what I know.......DOH! This is my first bike, in 49 years, that has the drive chain on the right side.........had me confused........not hard to do. Thx
9fingers
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Hey Grilla, Your just beating on it too hard. ;)
I see it's just starting to rub the cover, caught that just in time.
Hows the chain look must have been flexing left a lot.
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What if a solid physical stop were attached to the inside of the cover? ???
Maybe drill and tap through the cover, and run a large bolt in, cut to length with thread lock and sealed, adjusted to leave maybe 1/8" clearance between the new cover bolt/drive sprocket bolt stop, and drive sprocket bolt? ::)
That might prevent the drive sprocket bolt from ever backing too far out. You probably could even mount a sensor or switch to the new stop to let you know your sprocket is falling off again! :o
I like it . And a fail safe basket to catch the bolt too ! ;D
While not as popular as oil threads, fastener threadlocker threads can be just as exciting.
As you try, like me, to choose the correct threadlocker from Loctite or Permatex you will enter a wilderness of product evolutions and corporate handoffs.
Putting on my fire suit, here's an overview:
Blue: medium strength; disassemble with hand tools
Red: high strength; may or may not require high heat to disassemble with hand tools
Purple: low strength; disassemble with hand tools
Green: wicking (penetrating already assembled fasteners); medium/high strength; not sure about disassembly
As you examine the product comparison charts, be careful to note publication date. For instance, Loctite 270 seems to be a recent introduction, perhaps related to the Henkel handoff.
So which Loctite to use? My recommendation if your sprag bolt has not loosened, then Loctite 270 after cleaning and proper torque including 24 hour cure period should be sufficient. If your sprag bolt has loosened itself as shown in Mr Gorilla's photos then I recommend a Loctite that requires heat for removal (eg Loctite 263) because the threads are probably a bit worn from vibration and need the extra help.
I noticed the bolt head doesn't have a strength/grade marking. Finding a marked substitute with a shoulder is a consideration. And maybe adding a Nord lock washer? If anyone goes down this path, please post OEM and p/n.
Very good idea Bert ... the Nord lock washers are on order, and I'll let you know. ;) But it's still gonna get some red loctite and an impact gun ... and maybe a cheater pipe too ? ;D
That is the primary chain, which lives behind the left side cover... it runs in a bath of motor oil. ;)
Shows what I know.......DOH! This is my first bike, in 49 years, that has the drive chain on the right side.........had me confused........not hard to do. Thx
9fingers
No worries... ;)
Hey Grilla, Your just beating on it too hard. ;)
I see it's just starting to rub the cover, caught that just in time.
Hows the chain look must have been flexing left a lot.
Ya think ? ;D The the chain looks good.... the auto tensioner however, is thrashed. The upper row of teeth , which the spring mechanism engages in, are warn off. So the mechanism released and dropped ... bringing the chain with it. So slack chain , with no tension.
BTW... for those who don't know, that plug on the top of the left side cover is a primary chain inspection hole. If you remove it and stick your finger in there and push up on the chain... It should feel tight with very little play, if any at all. If it flops around or is easy to push ?..... you got a problem in there.
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OK... I THINK I have gotten to the bottom of this bolt fiasco. If you'll notice in the picture I posted above... the bolt has NOT spun out, but also has not dropped out. That is because this particular bike is an early UCE engine-ed G-5 motor. The G-5's have/had different left and right side engine covers, and rocker boxes then the C-5's. The left side cover that we are looking at here, on the G-5 , is flatter and not as rounded or bulges out as much as the more common C-5 and B-5 models. In the beginning, back in 2009 , it was just C-5 and G-5 here in the states... two different style left side covers.
Should the bolt spin out.... as it inevitably will because it's not a left handed thread .... On a G-5 the head of the bolt will bottom out and hit the inside of the left side cover.... while there are still a few threads of the bolts still in the crankshaft.... and preventing the bolt from dropping and causing mayhem. Loose ain't good, but at least it ain't tearing up the primary chain and the left crankcase and cover should it fall ... I guess they were thinking ?! ::) They "achieved" this by the length of the bolt ... leaving it too long, to thread all the way into the crank shaft, and also using a thick washer/ spacer. So when the bolt spins out, it hits the cast "Ribbing" on the inside of the cover.....
The left side cover on this G-5 CAN NOT be pushed on with the bolt un-threaded near it's end. If you look closely at the pic's, you can see some scaring on the inside of the cover, at the ribbing where the head of the bolt was hitting...
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Some more shots....
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The bolt and spacer in question...
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These covers style's on the G-5 did not last very long , and the bike was gone after a couple years. After that, the bikes here in the states all had the different "winged " more rounded C-5 type cover. Around 2011 there was a service bulletin , which mentioned a different bolt , thick washer , loctite 271 and increasing the torque spec . Ummmmmm ?.....I'm wondering it that old style G-5 bolt and spacer went into some of those early C-5's type left side covers and dropped causing mayhem ? ::) I've seen it in more then one case !
So anyway, a Nordlock M12 -- DP NL/PR , part number 0129510 from Fastenal here in the states, will be tried with the bolt and red 217 Loctite....
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That'what I'm talkin'about! The G5 cover is doing something like what I was thinking...block the bolt from being able to completely un-thread! ::)
Maybe some kind of disc or puck could be epoxied to the inside of the C5 cover as one potential way to stop the bolt, if it were still a problem? ???
I red loctite-ed mine a while back, but next time I'm in there I'll see what I can do...just in case all else fails! :o
Meanwhile, I think I'll google Nordlocks and see what I'm missing...
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so ive got a 2011 C5 with 45000 km on the clock... should i do this if ive never done it...
Or is it a case of 'if it aint broke, dont fix it'..... ?
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I'm guessing, if it hasn't come loose before you got 45000 km on the bike, it isn't going to.
For better or worse, that's my attitude about my 2011, G5 with 23000 miles (37100 km) on it.