Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: sparklow on February 04, 2016, 12:36:23 am

Title: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: sparklow on February 04, 2016, 12:36:23 am
Fork tubes come out of the casquet fine but I cannot get the 12mm caps off the fork legs. Following Scottie's directions with the lower triple tree clamp tightened and trying to turn clockwise to loosen these caps is not working so far. Anything else I could try? Is the removal of the allen bolts at the bottom of the fork legs another option to drain the oil or will I wish I left them alone?
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: pmanaz1973 on February 04, 2016, 02:15:50 am
On my 2014 I had to put the forks cap in smooth jawed vise and used a s pipe wrench and heat to break things loose.  The 28mm fork caps are on rookie tight - I had to use some heat and a pipe wrench to get the bloody tubes to turn. Strap wrench and leather pipe vise was useless - Ridiculous that they were on there that tight.  That truly was the only rough part and it wasn't that bad since any marred parts are hidden under the fork tube dust covers.

The threads on my 2014 were standard left-loose and right-tight, so no surprises. 

Here is my thread: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,20792.msg231242.html#msg231242
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: High On Octane on February 04, 2016, 04:03:13 am
If you're only changing the oil you just need to take off the top caps and pull the plugs on the bottom of the fork legs.  I use 260ml of synthetic ATF to refill.  Others use actual fork oil.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: pmanaz1973 on February 04, 2016, 07:32:50 am
If you get the top caps off successfully, I would highly recommend full disassembly.  There was quiet a bit dark sludge and surface rust I cleaned up while I was in there.

I'm loving the Bel Ray fork oil weight and amount I went with - everything I read was to stay with a 7-10wt fork oil at about 180 to 190cc.  I weigh about 185-190 with all my gear on and I find the 7wt at 180cc I went with is just about right for my style of riding.  I even do some gravel roads and find the front end is much better than factory. 

I may try bumping up volume to 190cc but will stick with the 7wt oil.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: sparklow on February 04, 2016, 09:28:09 am
Thanks for the replies so far. It appears from reading many of the fork related posts on this forum that one of the problems is that several variations of fork types are in use. My 2011 has the offset axle with the forks that are threaded into the casquet. Unfortunately only the earlier models of these offset type forks allowed for easy fork oil change, that is that they had an oil hole in the top plug and removable plugs at the bottom of the fork legs also. So I am thinking that mine are the type with a left hand thread holding the fork caps (12mm allen type) onto the fork legs. I have worked on many bikes but I have never run into anything close to the torque used at the factory to install these plugs, they might as well be welded on!
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: JVS on February 04, 2016, 09:41:50 am
Thanks for the replies so far. It appears from reading many of the fork related posts on this forum that one of the problems is that several variations of fork types are in use. My 2011 has the offset axle with the forks that are threaded into the casquet. Unfortunately only the earlier models of these offset type forks allowed for easy fork oil change, that is that they had an oil hole in the top plug and removable plugs at the bottom of the fork legs also. So I am thinking that mine are the type with a left hand thread holding the fork caps (12mm allen type) onto the fork legs. I have worked on many bikes but I have never run into anything close to the torque used at the factory to install these plugs, they might as well be welded on!

You must've come across my posts then  ;D I haven't been able to loosen the reverse thread top caps either. You are right about them being welded on. I even had heat applied with a butane torch and they still didn't budge. I gave up. Next option is to buy the fork legs brand new from CMW / Hitchcocks and ask them to send them with the top caps loosened/without any fork oil. Unless I can loosen the bottom allen bolts safely (with the legs removed), which I do not want to do as it seems risky.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 04, 2016, 02:44:51 pm
Heat, and if really necessary a hit from an impact wrench.  If there's no screw on the top cap you can drain the fork from the bottom but not refill it :(
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Richard230 on February 04, 2016, 03:17:51 pm
I have been thinking of changing the fork oil of my 2011 B5.  I have the factory service manual, but it sure isn't very helpful.  It says to remove the forks from the bike but doesn't say how. Can someone tell me how to remove the fork tubes from the casquet assembly?

I really don't understand the design.  It has large screws on top of the casquet and under that are the fork tubes with even larger nuts that can not be accessed unless the forks are completely removed from the front end. What is the purpose of the screws and what are they designed to do? What is is that attaches the forks to the front of the bike?  I can't see anything that looks like a triple clamp that would secure the forks to the frame.

The method of removing the forks from the bike is not very obvious.  And are there any tricks to refitting them back in place.  Those rubber spacers near the bottom and to the sides of the headlight look like they might be trouble when reinserting the forks into the casquet. My Triumph has something similar and getting the fork tubes past the rubber spacers took some good luck and lots of silicone spray. Any helpful comments would be appreciated.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 04, 2016, 03:48:23 pm
Anyone have the link to my post handy?
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: pmanaz1973 on February 04, 2016, 04:13:04 pm
Here is the link:  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.0.html

Like I said, I had to use a pipe wrench and heat to get those loose.  Unacceptably tight those were.  You could try Kroil penetrating oil and let them set over night.  That stuff is amazing, works on saltwater corroded bolts in my experience.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: mattsz on February 04, 2016, 04:16:38 pm
Here is the link:  https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,10813.0.html

Like I said, I had to use a pipe wrench and heat to get those loose.  Unacceptably tight those were.  You could try Kroil penetrating oil and let them set over night.  That stuff is amazing, works on saltwater corroded bolts in my experience.

This reminds me that the link to the PDF copy of Scotty's tutorial died with my website.  I'll find another way to get it out there...
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 04, 2016, 04:33:32 pm
"If you notice inconsistencies in the text and the pictures, do as I say not as I do.  When you can write your own tutorial instead of reading mine you can tell me what to do ;)"

What an obnoxious jerk.  Who lets this guy post here anyway?
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: mattsz on February 04, 2016, 04:37:29 pm
"If you notice inconsistencies in the text and the pictures, do as I say not as I do.  When you can write your own tutorial instead of reading mine you can tell me what to do ;)"

What an obnoxious jerk.  Who lets this guy post here anyway?

Hah!  Don't be so hard on that guy... you did notice the wink, didn't you?



This reminds me that the link to the PDF copy of Scotty's tutorial died with my website.  I'll find another way to get it out there...

I posted the PDF to Dropbox - and added the link to that thread - hope it works...
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Carlsberg Wordsworth on February 04, 2016, 08:19:48 pm
I speed read D Scottys instructions so had to put the fork back in and clamp in the lower tree, but high enough that I could use my hex key on my B5.

Used a breaker bar on a deep socket and some strong blasphemous words. I forget which way I went but originally I think I was tightening.

Used Castrol 10W synthetic 190cc (IIRC).

Strangely, I have been looking at the chart by Peter Verdone Designs as I was reading somewhere that not all weights are the same and it's all about centistokes or something. Also I'm sure I read what was recommended for the RE but I can't seem to find that.

It all feels ok really but I guess now I've asked myself the question, I wonder what the difference feels like so might change again even though I only did it six or so months ago.

Sorry, started rambling .....
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 04, 2016, 09:18:26 pm
I think RE recommends 10w30 motor oil for the forks in the manual.  Not using fork oil is just wrong to me, so I went with 10w fork oil, Bel-Ray since that's what was in stock locally.  Synthetic fork oils are nice if you can get them since they behave more consistently across temperature variations, your forks don't get stiffer in the winter.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Richard230 on February 04, 2016, 10:29:16 pm
Thanks for the fork servicing wright-up, Scotty, as linked by pmanaz1973. I would never have figured out how to remove those forks from the bike without that information.  It is much different than anything I have come across before. I guess RE mechanics are born with the knowledge of how to remove those forks and don't require that the information be spelled-out in the factory service manual.  ::) Are the C5 forks the same as the B5 forks as far as the removal and servicing goes?
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 05, 2016, 03:10:18 am
I think it was common knowledge in the day when there were lots of British bikes with nacelles on the front end. 

Pretty much the same, some differences but the pieces go together the same way.  Honestly, almost all Damper rod forks are the same as these.  Take pics as you go so you know how to put it back together later.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: suitcasejefferson on February 05, 2016, 07:12:02 am
While I am a former auto mechanic with 32 years experience and something of a maintenance fanatic, there are 3 things I don't do on a motorcycle until problems show up. Fork oil, steering head bearings, and swing arm bearings. I will change the fork oil and the seals when the seals start leaking, I will replace, lube, and adjust the steering head bearings and swingarm bearings when I detect any play in them. I have put 96,000 miles on my Kawasaki Vulcan 750, none of those things have been touched, and I have yet to experience any problems. If I'm going to have to do major disassembly, I'm definitely going to put it back with new bearings, seals, etc. I do not expect the RE to last as long as the Kawasaki, but I'm not riding nearly as much now as I was back in '02 when I bought that. I doubt I'll ever put more than 25,000 on the RE.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: sparklow on February 10, 2016, 09:48:32 pm
Job is now done. Getting the forks off the bike is easy enough following Scottie's write up. Getting the caps off the fork tubes is another matter. I tried it on the bike, tried to use the lower triple tree bolts to hold the fork tubes, but no go. I would have had to tighten the bolts to the point of stripping them out. So fork legs off the bike, wrapped with a thick layer of tape and then clamped into the pipe jaws of my bench vise. This sounds dangerous but it worked fine along with a heat gun and a large breaker bar. Fork legs were not damaged, oil changed, and front end back together. If I ever have to do it again it will be much easier the second time!
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Ducati Scotty on February 10, 2016, 09:59:12 pm
Yes, always easier the second time!  A) You know what you're doing and B) you've broken the factory seal already.

Several people have reported trouble either getting the forks out and/or getting the top cap out.  The lower triple does have a limited amount of grip.  If the top cap is really set in there it may not be enough.  I'd be in favor of trying to loosen the top cap with an impact wrench provided you a) make sure it's clamped well in the lower triple, b) you turn it the correct direction to loosen it, and c) cover ever damn think with towels to avoid scratched paint and broken glass.

Honestly, one or three blips on an impact would probably pop out the most stubborn top cap.  The caveat being, if you're doing something wrong then an impact wrench is going to make it worse very quickly.

Scott
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: Craig McClure on February 15, 2016, 05:54:36 pm
If you're only changing the oil you just need to take off the top caps and pull the plugs on the bottom of the fork legs.  I use 260ml of synthetic ATF to refill.  Others use actual fork oil.
PLUS ONE, on the SYNTHETIC 20w ATF. Works BETTER than the expensive "fork Oils" I've used.
ALSO PLUS ONE, on leaving the forks in the bike to change fluid, & using drain plug at  bottom. I have aluminum top plugs with an allen head. use penetrating oil overnight if stiff & a piece of pipe to extend your Allen wrench. An Allen head socket on a breaker bar will be ideal. Careful refilling - My Manual is WRONG, & I had to re-do.
Good Luck.
Title: Re: 2011 B5 fork oil change trouble
Post by: pmanaz1973 on February 15, 2016, 06:16:47 pm
On newer (2010 on) straight fork C5 and B5 this would only partially work.  You could drain the oil, but still have to loosen the entire top cap to refill and get a wrench down there to hold the piston in place when you retighten.  Everyone that has tried to loosen the top cap has ended up having to remove the fork tube anyway in order to remove the top cap due to it being so over tight.  The second time around this may be possible.  Scotty, I recall this being a topic before. Thoughts?