Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet Electra & AVL => Topic started by: tooseevee on September 28, 2016, 04:32:54 pm
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I've reached a point where my EDS, scoliosis, arthritis and muscle loss have pretty much made me useless.
The other day I decided to do my valves (although they are probably right where they ought to be) and found that it is just totally impossible for me to turn the engine over with either the kicker (by foot OR hand) OR the rear wheel and at the same time watch the TDC tool (which in itself contributes to the difficulty of turning the engine to a precise position because it replaces the spark plug you've removed to make it easier. It's the perfect Catch-22).
Plus the engine is VERY reluctant to STAY at TDC and always manages to go "just over" and "just past" where I want it to stay. VERY frustrating and to be perfectly blunt: It pisses me off and I have to walk away to avoid looking for a sledge hammer >:( :o
And yes, I know I should be able to watch the pushrods and see when they're both slack at TDC, but I can't.
I'm thinking of pulling the primary off and turning the engine over with the crankshaft nut like I do my harley (open primary) on which I can set both points gap, ignition timing and the valves in about a half hour.
So - question for those who have done it: Can I turn the engine over with this nut (at the crankshaft) with the plug out or will it just unloosen? Or do I just have to go ahead and see what happens?
PS: What's the Part# of that nut? I can't seem to find it in the Parts Book.
PPS: Before someone asks, the last time I set the valves was when the head came back from ACE and I KNEW I was at TDC because I was looking at the piston and could tell by the positions of the lifters that I was on compression stroke.
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Here is my method. I use a reference pointer wire with french chalk on the back wheel.
Set the wire so that it sits over the back tyre side wall like a pointer.
Engage top gear. Rotate the back wheel forward until well past TDC, say 10 mm marked on the finder. Mark the back tyre under the wire with French chalk.
Wind the back wheel well back then, going forward, establish 10 mm before top dead centre and mark it on the back tyre.
Now find the point half way between the two chalk marks on the back tyre.
Wind the wheel well back again and go forward till you have that centre point under the pointer wire.
Voila, TDC.
This way you are never trying to judge the vague area when the piston is very near TDC.
All the wheel movements must be in one direction to take the huge transmission backlash out of the equation.
Incidentally, in top gear (direct drive), about 0.4 of an inch BTDC measured on the back wheel is good for static ignition timing.
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So - question for those who have done it: Can I turn the engine over with this nut (at the crankshaft) with the plug out or will it just unloosen? Or do I just have to go ahead and see what happens?
Yes. That is the way I have always done mine and never encountered any problems.
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Here is my method. I use a reference pointer wire with french chalk on the back wheel.
Set the wire so that it sits over the back tyre side wall like a pointer.
Engage top gear. Rotate the back wheel forward until well past TDC, say 10 mm marked on the finder. Mark the back tyre under the wire with French chalk.
Wind the back wheel well back then, going forward, establish 10 mm before top dead centre and mark it on the back tyre.
Now find the point half way between the two chalk marks on the back tyre.
Wind the wheel well back again and go forward till you have that centre point under the pointer wire.
Voila, TDC.
This way you are never trying to judge the vague area when the piston is very near TDC.
All the wheel movements must be in one direction to take the huge transmission backlash out of the equation.
Incidentally, in top gear (direct drive), about 0.4 of an inch BTDC measured on the back wheel is good for static ignition timing.
That's brilliant! :) :) :) Double ++ and thank you. Malky, too.
I feel so stupid and my only excuse is that this never came up doing harleys either because of open primaries or the simplicity of finding your place using the kicker lever and watching the pushrod positions (I didn't use TDC to set valves on harleys especially kick onlys).
I may not get to this today (it's 2:30 already and I missed lunch :(), but I WILL get back to you.
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If all your doing is adjusting the valves, if the piston is within ±15° of TDC the adjustment will be fine. Both the exhaust and inlet valve are totally closed in this range and the cams are not even close to starting to lift a valve.
If you were sitting the ignition timing it would be another matter.
Then, every degree counts.
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You can also .....
Remove the fuel tank, remove spark plug...,
Slow crank the engine. Use a wooden dowl/ stick to take measurements through the spark plug hole . Mark the dowl/ stick with the highest point . Check push rods to see if loose. If not , crank engine 180deg more.TDC
Chasefield 's way to TDC is smarter.
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You can also .....
Remove the fuel tank, remove spark plug...,
Slow crank the engine. Use a wooden dowl/ stick to take measurements through the spark plug hole . Mark the dowl/ stick with the highest point . Check push rods to see if loose. If not , crank engine 180deg more.TDC
Chasefield 's way to TDC is smarter.
Thanks, but I already Have a TDC finder finder that screws into the spark plug hole. It's even indexed in tenths between whole numbers.
But you Are right: the big wooden dowel would be easier to see :) :)
I still haven't gotten back to the bike. It's been raining for 4 or 5 days now and I'm a hurtin' MFer :o it's too damp down there :'( Waah!
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I still haven't gotten back to the bike. It's been raining for 4 or 5 days now and I'm a hurtin' MFer :o it's too damp down there :'( Waah!
Well, I 'spose I should bring this thread to a close. To tell the truth, I forgot all about it.
I dragged the better half down one day when the rain finally dried up. I 'splained what she needed to do and she watched the TDC finder go up and down with a good light while I turned the engine over with the rear wheel in 5th gear.\
We found that TDC was exzackly 4.0 on this particular TDC finder. The valves were perfeckly OK when I checked them as I thought.
I had had a shitty running experience previous to this and had dropped the bowl, checked that the needle was shutting off properly and removed the mixture screw and the pilot jet to blow everything out. I took the pilot jet out in the sun and looked with a magnifying glass and lo and behold there was a tiny piece of grit inside the jet in one of the holes. How it got through the super-fine filter in the tank and my inline filter I'll never know.
It started up OK on the third crank of the ES which is why I still have a love/hate relationship with this TM-32 Mikuni. I HATE the way the engine will just NOT stay running the first time no matter how many times I have tried to tweak the carb to make it so. I have made a hundred tiny mixture screw tweaks from the sweet spot and it's still the same story the next day. It will run a couple revolutions and no matter how quick and delicate I am with the throttle it will die and sometimes it dies with one of those horrible sprag clanks that slams into my brain like getting hit with a baseball bat and makes me want to just say F! this and get rid of the bike. If it does it twice I get so pissed hearing that sprag clank I want to smash the whole F-ing bike with a sledge hammer and just be done with it.
And I will go to my grave hating the fact that this engine will NOT kickstart cold. Period. And I'm convinced it's something to do with the characteristics of this carburetor on this particular engine (ACEhead with 9.8 comp). There is no tweaking I haven't tried and it still won't kickstart cold or get past those first 10 seconds after electric starting and keep the mu**rf**ker running on the first ES.
But then it runs so good out on the road and is an instant starter warm (both kick and electric) that it's like a dog that bites you once in a while, but you still love the dog.
Yes, I've gone one up and one down on the needle. Ran like shit both ways from the middle groove. And the richener is useless. It Will Not start AT ALL with ANY use of the enrichener.
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It sounds like you and Mikunis Just Don't Get Along... I'm sure you have been in touch with ACE about this, so consider the alternatives, though (re-)check that your carb hasn't got an air leak around the mounting rubber flange, it sounds a like the way mine was behaving a while ago, tightening up the hose clip sorted it.
Amal Concentric Mk 2 - Bullet Whisperer swears BY these carbs rather than AT them, he's the go-to guy for tuning these.
Dell'Orto PHF 32, 34 or 36 with the accelerator pump, the carb of choice for the UK importer's original go-faster kit for the Electra-X, there's a Malossi flage rubber for it with the correct 60mm centres. Don't worry about the black spaghetti in the photo, that's just small bore tubing from the overflows, which can be trimmed to suit.
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/176/dscn7422_imagesia-com_17609_large.JPG) (http://en.imagesia.com/dscn7422_17609)
Other carbs might be suggested, possibly our host's JRC Kehin copy.
A.
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It sounds like you and Mikunis Just Don't Get Along... I'm sure you have been in touch with ACE about this, so consider the alternatives, though (re-)check that your carb hasn't got an air leak around the mounting rubber flange, it sounds a like the way mine was behaving a while ago, tightening up the hose clip sorted it.
Amal Concentric Mk 2 - Bullet Whisperer swears BY these carbs rather than AT them, he's the go-to guy for tuning these.
Dell'Orto PHF 32, 34 or 36 with the accelerator pump, the carb of choice for the UK importer's original go-faster kit for the Electra-X, there's a Malossi flage rubber for it with the correct 60mm centres. Don't worry about the black spaghetti in the photo, that's just small bore tubing from the overflows, which can be trimmed to suit.
Other carbs might be suggested, possibly our host's JRC Kehin copy.
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Adrian,
I did some bitchin' and moanin' over on DanB's thread. I shoulda done it here. I just can't deal with everything that's involved in learning yet another carburetor at this point and getting it dialed in.
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If you have tried everything allready with the carb, you could try to retard your ignition by 1 or 2 degrees. I think it would reduce those backfires when cold.
I have heard those mikuni carbs are really sensitive about their jets. If you want an easy carb I would suggest a PWK carb. I bought one from China and it was basicly free (35$ if I recall) but it works like a charm. Got it jetted with the jets witch came with it.
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Unlike the cast iron Bullets, the AVL classic and Electra-X have fixed ignition, there's no provision for changing the firing position apart from using offset rotor keys.
A.
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Unlike the cast iron Bullets, the AVL classic and Electra-X have fixed ignition, there's no provision for changing the firing position apart from using offset rotor keys.
A.
Sorry I tought it was the same as CI but with no points.
Anyways now that i have read you posts on this thread and from the other thread. I really think it is not a carb related issue but a weak spark because of the high compression. The spark could look OK on the open air but it can be weak on the compression chamber where the compressed air is more denser.
First you have to check you don't have resistors on both the plug and the plug cap. If the plug cap shows 5 kohms then use b9es or b8es plug.
I would recommend you to get a better coil (bosch blue or pertronix flame thrower 40511), good quality ignition wire and a resistor plug cap if you use plugs without resistor (b9es or b8es) or a plug cap without resistor if you use plugs with resistors ( br9es, br8es or iridium br9eix or br8eix)
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Sorry I tought it was the same as CI but with no points.
Anyways now that i have read you posts on this thread and from the other thread. I really think it is not a carb related issue but a weak spark because of the high compression. The spark could look OK on the open air but it can be weak on the compression chamber where the compressed air is more denser.
First you have to check you don't have resistors on both the plug and the plug cap. If the plug cap shows 5 kohms then use b9es or b8es plug.
I would recommend you to get a better coil (bosch blue or pertronix flame thrower 40511), good quality ignition wire and a resistor plug cap if you use plugs without resistor (b9es or b8es) or a plug cap without resistor if you use plugs with resistors ( br9es, br8es or iridium br9eix or br8eix)
I've had compression blowout in the back of my mind for a long time now, but the disprover is how well the damn thing runs out on the road. It gets to 50, 55 very easily and quickly and will cruise at 50 in 4th with no sweat at all and 5th is a whole 'nuther world from the stock engine.
Second thing: You've got me all confuzalated now with this resistor thing. The HT wire, coil and plug cap are stock to this '08 AVL and I've never used anything but BPR9ES (except 8s for while) in it since new and no other plug has ever been recommended here that I know of (I've been on here since '09 or '10 I think). Now I'm second guessing something ELSE again...
Is it a resistor cap or isn't it? It's shiny metal like a beer can. It appears to be steel :)
Kevin? Isn't that the plug in CM's catalog? Ace? Adrian? Arizoni? Vince?
Should I locate a coil tester? Or just go ahead and get a Pertronix (put a whole Pertronix setup in my '70 DS (and a '72), good stuff).
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If its the original AVL metal encased plastic plug cap it'll have an inbuilt resistor.
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Second thing: You've got me all confuzalated now with this resistor thing. The HT wire, coil and plug cap are stock to this '08 AVL and I've never used anything but BPR9ES (except 8s for while) in it since new and no other plug has ever been recommended here that I know of (I've been on here since '09 or '10 I think). Now I'm second guessing something ELSE again...
I hope you all realized I meant BR9ES. I don't know where that P came from. The dark depths of my miiiinnd ...
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If its the original AVL metal encased plastic plug cap it'll have an inbuilt resistor.
OK then. So now let's talk about what Finnbullet said. Should I, or should I not, be using a resistor plug with a resistor cap? ??? ???
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Have to agree completely. You only need 5kOhms of suppression in total, either 5 from a suppressed plug cap or 5 from a suppressed plug. Not both.
Your preference, although it certainly appears easier in my experience to find suppressed plugs on the shelf than non suppressed ones.
You definitely don't want to be using a suppressed HT lead either. If you have one of those fitted junk it immediately.
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Have to agree completely. You only need 5kOhms of suppression in total, either 5 from a suppressed plug cap or 5 from a suppressed plug. Not both.
Your preference, although it certainly appears easier in my experience to find suppressed plugs on the shelf than non suppressed ones.
You definitely don't want to be using a suppressed HT lead either. If you have one of those fitted junk it immediately.
I haven't changed the coil, the HT wire or the plug cap. And I have always been using BR9ES plugs since Day One. Recommended here. No other plug has ever been recommended here by anyone for an AVL. This goes back to Dec. 2009 when I got this brand new '08 AVL and replaced the Bosch that was in it by the recommendation of many here on the forum. It's also the plug sold by Kevin at CMW for this bike. That's where I got my first ones in Nov. 2010.
Do you see why I'm curious now? This is a rip in the fabric of the universe ??? ::) ;) Migod, what have I done? :o :o
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It's okay I've ripped it the other way by using the same NGK plug for almost 15,000 miles in my B5.
I intend to check it later today when I do an oil change. I may refit it I may not. It's been totally problem free, never been cleaned and only been out of the bike once at 5,500 miles for this photo opportunity. I may fit a long lasting Iridium plug just to see how long it will last,but I don't think I'd actually benefit from one.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t245/portisheadric/Gump/P1010949_zpsflqvix4z.jpg)
The fatter the spark the less chance a plug has of fouling in less than optimum running/starting conditions. Some bikes will benefit, some bikes won't, older style electrics and engine designs more so than newer ones.
Removing an unnecessary resistor that might fail at some point and fitting a quality plug cap is a very cheap upgrade to a better ignition circuit. I've been stuck at the side of the road on a soaking wet night with a metal encased plug cap more times than I wish to remember before realising that having a metal encased plug cap is not always a good thing. I've been throwing them away for some time now.
EDIT:- put a file to the centre electrode, gapped it and decided to put it back in the bike. I'll change it when it's done 20,000.
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It's okay I've ripped it the other way by using the same NGK plug for almost 15,000 miles in my B5.
I intend to check it later today when I do an oil change. I may refit it I may not. It's been totally problem free, never been cleaned and only been out of the bike once at 5,500 miles for this photo opportunity. I may fit a long lasting Iridium plug just to see how long it will last,but I don't think I'd actually benefit from one.
The fatter the spark the less chance a plug has of fouling in less than optimum running/starting conditions. Some bikes will benefit, some bikes won't, older style electrics and engine designs more so than newer ones.
Removing an unnecessary resistor that might fail at some point and fitting a quality plug cap is a very cheap upgrade to a better ignition circuit. I've been stuck at the side of the road on a soaking wet night with a metal encased plug cap more times than I wish to remember before realising that having a metal encased plug cap is not always a good thing. I've been throwing them away for some time now.
That's a good looking plug; one of the +s of a properly tuned EFI.
I've never really liked that cap either, but not enough to change it. Maybe I'll find a good looking old style black rubber NR plug cap and a Pertronix round coil (what I see in my head when I think "coil"). I could leave the stock coil in place and mount the round coil on the downtube with a screamin' yellow zonkers yellow HT wire. Ohlord - stop me..:-[ :-[ ::)
Is there anything about the Electronic Ignition in an AVL that sez "Don't fuck with the stock Resistor plug cap or I will not run"?
My old question still hangs in the air: Why has a resistor plug (BR9ES) been recommended for ever for an engine with a resistor cap if there's something wrong about doing that?
And does it really matter? From what I'm hearing here now and what I'm reading other places, yes, it matters. How much? Who knows? I'm reading one or the other, not both. For me, simplicity matters. I'm not hearing from the heavy hitters here yet.
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Until the heavy hitters show up, my two pence worth. My Electra-X had an NGK resistor cap fitted quite early on in place of the metal thing, which was too reminiscent of the one I had on a Honda single years ago, and which had to go as it didn't like rain. This was with a non-resistor plug, with an ordinary B9ES or B8ES most of the time. Going to a non-resistor plug cap with your resistor plug will be ok, maybe treat your bike to some nice new copper core HT lead?
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I don't know why they have recommended a resistor plug with resistor cap, could be a precaution if someone had changed the plug cap to resistorless version.(I think the electronic ignition needs that 5 kohms to prevent the radio interference from the ht lead to mess up the electronics.)
The resistor plug may work just fine with the resistor cap and original coil in an engine with standard compression, but when you lift the compression the ignition system needs more voltage and energy to produce a good spark. So it might be that when you have those resistors (5 kohm + 5 kohm + x ohms from ht lead) the standard coil can't give a high enough voltage to produce a good spark.
My friend had a moped ones that had a bad coil on it. It had a spark when we tested it, but it was a weak one, it was PITA to get the engine running. We tried to kick start it and we tried to push start it, and finally we did get it running. but when the bike warmed up, it started at the first kick. So a lesson learned, it might work just fine with a weaker spark when it is all warmed up.
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Going to a non-resistor plug cap with your resistor plug will be ok, maybe treat your bike to some nice new copper core HT lead?
A.
Yes :) Yes :) Yes :) And a proper round coil I can see.
And I'm going to beat this other problem, too. "Ve haf vays, you know, to deal vis ziss".
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I don't know why they have recommended a resistor plug with resistor cap, could be a precaution if someone had changed the plug cap to resistorless version.(I think the electronic ignition needs that 5 kohms to prevent the radio interference from the ht lead to mess up the electronics.)
The resistor plug may work just fine with the resistor cap and original coil in an engine with standard compression, but when you lift the compression the ignition system needs more voltage and energy to produce a good spark. So it might be that when you have those resistors (5 kohm + 5 kohm + x ohms from ht lead) the standard coil can't give a high enough voltage to produce a good spark.
My friend had a moped ones that had a bad coil on it. It had a spark when we tested it, but it was a weak one, it was PITA to get the engine running. We tried to kick start it and we tried to push start it, and finally we did get it running. but when the bike warmed up, it started at the first kick. So a lesson learned, it might work just fine with a weaker spark when it is all warmed up.
You're selling me more and more on a Pertronix coil and a new HT wire and cap. That way I can use all these BR9s I have. I never did like a coil I couldn't see.
And I WILL solve this other problem, also. I'll boil this damn TM32* in hydroflouric acid if I have to. As long as I can Walk, I will NOT have a motorcycle I can't kick start!! :) :) :) ;D
* I know it's a good carb. There's something I haven't fixed yet or got right yet, that's all.
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Not sure if this is relevant in your case, but I was having Hot start issues with my AVL Bullet. Stock except for Goldstar exhaust and stock carb upjet. Did all the usual carb cleaning and and electrical tests. Finally did a resistance check on the stock coil. Because I didn't want to remove the tank, I checked at the plug end of the coil wire. It read 5K more than the spec for the coil. To me that indicates a resistor plug wire. I changed to a B9es plug and the hot start issue went away. It was as available as the BR9.
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Just checked nfield gear, you can either have red NGK resistor plug caps or the flashing variety, resistor or otherwise not specified!
No lack of the short black NGK non-resistor caps on that well-known auction web site however... (just the thing if you also want to use an Iridium plug at some stage).
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Just checked nfield gear, you can either have red NGK resistor plug caps or the flashing variety, resistor or otherwise not specified!
A.
That's not the point here, Adrian. I can "have" any kind of cap I want. I realize that. What I DO have is the stock cap that came on the engine from the factory.
The point is that from day one it looks like the stock cap on AVLs is a resistor type and from day one BR9ES is the recommended plug. That seems to be incorrect now?? That's my only point.
I personally never gave it a second thought before it came up here just by accident in the general discussion about my tricky starting issues. I've just kept using the plug recommended here and everywhere else, including NFieldGear, since the bike was new.
I'm going to just get a non-resistor cap and HT wire and Prtrnx coil and keep on using the BR9ES plugs I already have and be done with thinking about it any more.
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My point was simply that our as hosts don't seem to list a non-resistor plug cap, you will have to buy one from another source... Sounds like you're on it, though.
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The point is that from day one it looks like the stock cap on AVLs is a resistor type and from day one BR9ES is the recommended plug. That seems to be incorrect now?? That's my only point.
Ya know, I never even thought about questioning the use of the BR plug. Glad u found this 2CV. Since I'm still in pieces, think I'll be looking for a new cap and ht lead.
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tooseevee,
I have mentioned this resistor plug / cap business in numerous threads, both here and elsewhere, over the last few years. I even had a Honda CB500F brought in, in immaculate restored condition, but only running on two cylinders and the odd pop and bang from the other two. The owner brought along a brand new electronic ignition kit for me to fit and asked me to strip the carbs.
I checked the [brand new] ignition points and whipped the'BR' type plugs out, to check them and found they were on the black side. I spotted it had resistor type plug caps, so I fitted non resistor type plugs. The bike started instantly on all four, with a steady, even tick over and never missed a beat right up to the red line.
I have since fixed numerous BSA, Triumph and R.E. twins with misfiring issues by junking the 'R' plugs and putting plain ones in - this is at the top of my check list on difficult starting, misfiring engines and so easy to fix.
As an aside, some people see a big, blue 'R' on the side of a spark plug and mistakenly think 'racing', but it is 'resistor' and they are not welcome in my workshop and our racing Enfields don't use them either.
B.W.
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tooseevee,
I have mentioned this resistor plug / cap business in numerous threads, both here and elsewhere, over the last few years. I even had a Honda CB500F brought in, in immaculate restored condition, but only running on two cylinders and the odd pop and bang from the other two. The owner brought along a brand new electronic ignition kit for me to fit and asked me to strip the carbs.
I checked the [brand new] ignition points and whipped the'BR' type plugs out, to check them and found they were on the black side. I spotted it had resistor type plug caps, so I fitted non resistor type plugs. The bike started instantly on all four, with a steady, even tick over and never missed a beat right up to the red line.
I have since fixed numerous BSA, Triumph and R.E. twins with misfiring issues by junking the 'R' plugs and putting plain ones in - this is at the top of my check list on difficult starting, misfiring engines and so easy to fix.
As an aside, some people see a big, blue 'R' on the side of a spark plug and mistakenly think 'racing', but it is 'resistor' and they are not welcome in my workshop and our racing Enfields don't use them either.
B.W.
I'd just rather not comment much further on this. I'm just going to get a non-resistor cap (and a new coil) and be done with it. If I didn't already have quite a few BR9s (and 8s) on hand, I would just get some B9ES plugs. This is better, I guess, because now I don't trust the cap or the wire or even the coil.
I just don't want to hear some day down the road "Well, you picked the wrong plug. You should have known better". I didn't pick it out of the air. The BR9ES has ALWAYS been the recommended plug for this bike both in the original paper catalog and then online so that's the one I've been using. Never thought about it 'til now and now I don't even trust the factory coil.
This machine has been an incredible learning experience. And I'm not done yet :) :) :o ??? 8) ::) :-X And I swear I will win unless I end up in a nursing home first :) Luckily it's still my left leg that's the worse of the two.
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Well, I'm back again whether you people who are sick and tired of this old man and his '08 Acehead AVL like it or not :) :) ;) Like a bad penny or another government "program".
I've had the Pertronix coil and new HT wire here for a week or so now and have been thinking out the wires and the location and what kind of clamp to buy or whether to hide it (like the OEM one) under the tank.
(A) I don't wanna hide it. I want to see it; (B) I don't like the forward mount on the downtube idea using the horn socket. Looks stupid + the wires from the TCI become even longer.
I want it behind the engine somewhere where I can see it which also gives me very short wires from the TCI.
The TCI tells the coil what to do through a Brown wire (from the KILL switch though a fuse) and a Red/White wire (straight from the TCI).
Under "normal" circumstances where the kill switch grounds the points the Brown would be Negative (Kill switch grounds the points to the frame, killing the spark, killing the engine).
But that's not the case here since the Brown wire is fused (and it being a Royal Enfield), the Brown must be 12V Pos. and the "kill switch" simply "unplugs" the coil's 12V Pos..
What say the experts here? I treat wires like water pipes so wadoowinoe? ??? :) Which wire goes to which coil terminal?
And what possible future problem would I introduce by tapping the new coil wire into the Brown wire beFORE the fuse? (I would have to unwrap a lot and the wires are like spider web). I guess I'd better do it because after all it IS a 12V POS wire.
What things would make that Brown wire fuse blow? Would any short anywhere in the ignition system blow that fuse through the Kill switch?
Yes, I do know the wires. I've had every one of them unwrapped, kissed and hugged and then rewrapped with cloth harness tape.
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I'm surprised that a lot of our electronics and electrical gurus didn't comment on my last. Oh, well. I just fell back on my vast knowledge of electricity as water and the wires as pipes (that make sparks).
So wadda youse 'tink? ???
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Tooseevee,
In my exploration for my current breakdown I realized that the brown wire which runs 'from' the TCI to the ignition coil doesn't actually do that. My understanding is that the brown wire runs from the killswitch, and splits at a Y to power both the TCI and the coil. At least that's what it does on my already-suspect wiring diagram. I haven't unwrapped all the wiring (yet).
I believe the TCI's leg of the brown wire is fused, but the leg of the Y that connects to the coil is not fused. Could this be because the TCI is also connected to the pulser coil, and that might be the surge risk?? I have no practical knowledge on this subject, but figured I'd try and offer what little help I could. Hopefully I haven't further muddied the waters.... it sounds like you have a more intimate understanding of your wiring harness than I, so feel free to disregard. :o
Chuck
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Tooseevee,
In my exploration for my current breakdown I realized that the brown wire which runs 'from' the TCI to the ignition coil doesn't actually do that. My understanding is that the brown wire runs from the killswitch, and splits at a Y to power both the TCI and the coil. At least that's what it does on my already-suspect wiring diagram. I haven't unwrapped all the wiring (yet).
I believe the TCI's leg of the brown wire is fused, but the leg of the Y that connects to the coil is not fused. Could this be because the TCI is also connected to the pulser coil, and that might be the surge risk?? I have no practical knowledge on this subject, but figured I'd try and offer what little help I could. Hopefully I haven't further muddied the waters.... it sounds like you have a more intimate understanding of your wiring harness than I, so feel free to disregard. :o
Chuck
Yes. The TCI gets its 12V+ from the Ignition Switch through the Kill Switch through its own fuse. The Coil gets its 12V+ direct from the other leg of the "Y" with no fuse (that matters here).
The Red/White wire is a direct connection between the Coil and the TCI.
My gut tells me that the Brown goes to Positive on the Pertronix Coil and the Red/White goes to the Negative and that's the way I've wired it. My new jumpers come right off from very close to the TCI and I've made them Red and Black as the wires to a Coil should be. The fuse functions the same as before. We'll see later if any smoke comes out.
For all I know this thing is wired to blow if you change the coil. Like some of the cars now that will punish you harshly if you Dare change the battery and missed the seminar.
There is no Pos or Neg marking on the OEM coil. It's just a shapeless black lump. I've heard some say that the connections to a coil don't matter; that either way is Okay, that's why they're not even marked any more. Quien sabe?
Oh, no. You haven't muddied at all ;) It helps to verify each others incorrectness once in awhile ;) ;) An old cowboy mentor once told me "Son, it's about as clear as mud, but it covers the ground". The mud is very thick here in 2016.
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The Red/White wire is a direct connection between the Coil and the TCI.
My gut tells me that the Brown goes to Positive on the Pertronix Coil and the Red/White goes to the Negative and that's the way I've wired it. My new jumpers come right off from very close to the TCI and I've made them Red and Black as the wires to a Coil should be. The fuse functions the same as before. We'll see later if any smoke comes out.
Nice big fat blue spark from the Pertronix coil. Of course, that's from an exposed plug, no compression and an engine cranking at about 3,000 with the plug out. No, I didn't start it. I will not hear that noise again this season! Everything carb and intakewise is coming apart and I will find the problem this time or I will give this bike away to someone who can. I've had it with hearing sprag noises both kick and electric just to get this bitch started the first time of the day and then have it run (and start) like a Swiss watch after its first start. See you in the Spring.
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Nice big fat blue spark from the Pertronix coil. Of course, that's from an exposed plug, no compression and an engine cranking at about 3,000 with the plug out. No, I didn't start it. I will not hear that noise again this season! Everything carb and intakewise is coming apart and I will find the problem this time or I will give this bike away to someone who can. I've had it with hearing sprag noises both kick and electric just to get this bitch started the first time of the day and then have it run (and start) like a Swiss watch after its first start. See you in the Spring.
Why don't you just start it? I think you have just fixed the problem with the better spark :)
But, IF it still does backfire when cold, you should check the ignition timing. ( according to hitchcock they have found as much as 7 deg too much advance in a totally standard ignition in an avl engine because of the manufactoring toleranses. If this is the case in your bike, you should use those offset keys to retard the ignition a few degrees)
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Agreed! We're waiting pensively for the verdict.
Best case scenario, you enter the winter with a personal win versus this cold start issue. Worst case scenario you have a few months to ponder on another solution.
Again I'm a novice, but is it realistic to consider a hotter spark plug? I know the b8 and b9 plugs are what's recommended, but what is the harm in a hotter plug? (besides a higher chance of pinging when hot)? My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out. It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?
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Why don't you just start it? I think you have just fixed the problem with the better spark :)
But, IF it still does backfire when cold, you should check the ignition timing. ( according to hitchcock they have found as much as 7 deg too much advance in a totally standard ignition in an avl engine because of the manufactoring toleranses. If this is the case in your bike, you should use those offset keys to retard the ignition a few degrees)
No, I'm not starting it again. The whole intake side is coming off and apart. I will boil the carb in carburetor cleaner if I have to. It's going to be as clean as a piece being rechromed and sealed like the space station against micro intake leaks.
It's been so long and so much water under the bridge and tweaking this and turning that that I must set a new absolute baseline again and start from there. I'll then wait til the air warms up or if I feel like it and feel I'm ready, I'll run my heater in the garage for a morning near the engine and then start it. I've got to have a new baseline like I did when I got this bike sight unseen from the lawyers of an out-of-business dealer in 2010, never sold, dry, sitting in a back room for two years, no miles, no gas, no battery, flat tires, all the bulbs burnt out, CMW Title and a bill of sale.
I'm not leaning toward a timing problem very much, but you may be right. It runs so well on the road and starts if you breathe on it after that first start and warmup of the day.
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Well fingers crossed, sounds like you have a good approach!
Cheers,
Chuck
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Agreed! We're waiting pensively for the verdict.
Best case scenario, you enter the winter with a personal win versus this cold start issue. Worst case scenario you have a few months to ponder on another solution.
Again I'm a novice, but is it realistic to consider a hotter spark plug? I know the b8 and b9 plugs are what's recommended, but what is the harm in a hotter plug? (besides a higher chance of pinging when hot)? My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out. It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?
I've already done the 8 and the 9 switcheroo many months ago at Ace's suggestion. Didn't seem to make a lot of difference from what I could detect from how it started or idled or ran down the road with the seat of my pants on the seat. So I don't know. No change in reading the two plugs; they looked the same more or less.
No, I've never tried a 7, just 8 and 9.
I personally never want to hear that sprag noise. It hurts my bRAYn. I NEVER get it when I kill the engine because I have ALways used the comp release. The engine should start and run and not die with that horrible clank during the FIRST sparked revolution and that's what I'm going to find this time or the bike is going away. I think there is still some tiny thing wrong in the intake somewhere (before the valve). I do not think it's a spark or valve timing problem.
The only problem is I should have waited until AFter to install the Pertronix.
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Agreed! We're waiting pensively for the verdict.
My understanding is that your sprag sound when it dies at cold start is not pinging, but just the normal sound the engine makes when stalling out. It's still not pleasant, and still should be avoided, but am I wrong in thinking that could be unrelated to timing?
Oh, it's definitely not pinging :) >:(
Yes, it might be timing, but I'm not ready to screw with the timing on what, to me, is a fixed electronic ignition system. The damn thing should deliver at least 2 or 3 sparks on compression before the second or third arrives too soon and drives the frigging engine Backwards! I just don't know. If it's delivering the first 3 or 4 compression sparks that much TOO early, that's an impending nightmare to me. I think once I start fucking with what should be a functioning fixed system that I am totally in the dark about modifying, I am doomed. I almost wish it had points.
I still think there is something wicked in the delivery and/or mixture of fuel for the first few important seconds at that very touchy initial rollon position of the throttle. I can also see your questioning of timing. It also fits in this story because it IS a too early spark that is what makes the poor beast scream in dying, backward slamming agony.
And it never does it warm. The timing doesn't change with warm (to speak of). Also remember this is a 9.8 comp engine with "huge" ;) valves and a totally different shaped comb chamber. So who knows? ??? :)
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Yes, you've got yourself a proper conundrum!
I only kickstart, but any starting issues I have are generally fuel related. The 'water' separates from the gasoline, and sinks to the bottom of the tank. Sometimes my bike starts no problem, but if it has been sitting for a few weeks I generally have to open the petcock and drain fuel out through the carb until it 'smells like gas'... then it fires up first kick.
Those rare 'incomplete starts' do give me that winding, grinding sprag sound when it fails to fire up. In my case I figure it is related to incomplete combustion (due to fuel separation).
It sounds like the root of your problem may lie elsewhere, but it can't hurt to drain the little bit of water out of your gas as a precautionary measure.
Best of luck!
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Yes, you've got yourself a proper conundrum!
I only kickstart, but any starting issues I have are generally fuel related. The 'water' separates from the gasoline, and sinks to the bottom of the tank. Sometimes my bike starts no problem, but if it has been sitting for a few weeks I generally have to open the petcock and drain fuel out through the carb until it 'smells like gas'... then it fires up first kick.
Those rare 'incomplete starts' do give me that winding, grinding sprag sound when it fails to fire up. In my case I figure it is related to incomplete combustion (due to fuel separation).
It sounds like the root of your problem may lie elsewhere, but it can't hurt to drain the little bit of water out of your gas as a precautionary measure.
Best of luck!
Yes, and a quandary, too.
I love that ++ "til it smells like gas".
Yes, that's why I think mine is more a fuel problem than an actual timing (like your 'fuel separation') problem.
I dood it already. I drained the tank and carb totally quite a few weeks ago (it's in the thread somewhere). I put 3 gallons of E10 in it. No MMO. All I added was the bare minimum amount of Ethanol Fighter Treatment Stuff. No change. No improvement. No difference.
Back to Blowin' (leaves) In The Wind..... ??? :) ::)
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had the same backward sprag slam hot start issues before i tore it down and sent it to Ace. work issues prevent me from finishing the project at this time...but thank you all for your input
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Those engines are a pain to find TDC you think there would be some markings to assitain accurate TDC one old school way is to use an upside down knitting needle then make a mark when engine reaches TDC then run it round again, or better you might be able to use a dial gauge which would be the most accurate after taking a few readings, TDC is a must for obtaining valve and cam timing, very important in relation to ignition timing BMW use a lock pin on singles to obtain spot on TDC which is dead essential for cam timing. There probably is a better way not yet discovered but the knitting needle will work albeit not being exact spot on.
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I doubt the French chalk on the tire would be accurate you must remember there is considerable backlash in the chain and sprockets and the gearbox it may be accurate enough but l would wager a few degrees out, in reality the engine design comes from the dark ages they did not have modern timing marks back then but in saying that with mordern gauges you can obtain them, let's not forget this design goes back 70 years.
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...... one old school way is to use an upside down knitting needle then make a mark when engine reaches TDC then run it round again,
Or use a short piece of small diameter wooden dowel.
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I have done some research on these models from original factory workshop manuals, it seem the only accurate way to find TDC is by attaching dial gauge via spark plug hole, for ignition timing rotate the crank and set the gauge to 0.8 mm BTDC then adjust the back plate, it sounds odd l now no degrees but this is the procedure listed in the archives for general publication, there appears to be no timing marks on engine other than cam dots which are set after you establish TDC, valves are also set at the TDC compression stroke both valves closed.
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I have done some research on these models from original factory workshop manuals, it seem the only accurate way to find TDC is by attaching dial gauge via spark plug hole, for ignition timing rotate the crank and set the gauge to 0.8 mm BTDC then adjust the back plate, it sounds odd l now no degrees but this is the procedure listed in the archives for general publication, there appears to be no timing marks on engine other than cam dots which are set after you establish TDC, valves are also set at the TDC compression stroke both valves closed.
When doing your research on these models, did it not occur to you that there is no back plate to adjust on these [AVL] models?
B.W.
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I have done some research on these models from original factory workshop manuals, it seem the only accurate way to find TDC is by attaching dial gauge via spark plug hole, for ignition timing rotate the crank and set the gauge to 0.8 mm BTDC then adjust the back plate, it sounds odd l now no degrees but this is the procedure listed in the archives for general publication, there appears to be no timing marks on engine other than cam dots which are set after you establish TDC, valves are also set at the TDC compression stroke both valves closed.
We're talking AVLs here. AVLs are Electronic Ignition and have no points backing plate to adjust.
Finding TDC center on my AVL to Set The Valves takes about two minutes with the "timing mark" on my little piece of dowel. The hardest part is rotating the rear tire and keeping my eye on the mark. Everything hurts especially working on the ground.
I know. I know. Harbor Freight Bike Lift. I'm an idiot ??? ??? :) :)
Another hint: Remove the tappet cover center post when setting valves. Gives way more freedom for the wrenches.
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When doing your research on these models, did it not occur to you that there is no back plate to adjust on these [AVL] models?
B.W.
Woops. Shudda read this posting first before I answered Karl.
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A TDC guage £30 on eBay.
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Anybody mention that Hitchcocks sells a TDC "tool"? I broke the porcelain off an old spark plug and use a wooden dowel thru it.
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Yes l have one of those old 70s plug type gauges as well, but l have to say they are not the most accurate, but in saying that traveling through memory l have once used a knitting needle cut down.