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Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet Electra & AVL => Topic started by: ace.cafe on January 17, 2014, 06:20:50 pm

Title: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 17, 2014, 06:20:50 pm
Hi!
I got Tooseevee's head in today, and am going to bring it over to the shop for mods.
I don't know exactly what Tooseevee wants done to it yet, so I thought we could start a thread to talk about it, and all you AVL guys can get in on the act.

This is the first AVL that we are getting a chance to work on at Ace.
Should be a lot of fun!

AVL community participation invited!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 17, 2014, 06:26:11 pm
Hi Ace,
 No surprise really, but I will follow this with interest and if I can help in any way with my 'previous' with these machines, I will be happy to do so  8)
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: TejK on January 17, 2014, 06:43:15 pm
I don't know exactly what Tooseevee wants done to it yet, so I thought we could start a thread to talk about it, and all you AVL guys can get in on the act.

Finally !!! Tell us how it flows and then make it flow, make it flow more, I say !!!  ;D

This should be fun !!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 17, 2014, 07:24:12 pm
Baseline flow test will be first on the agenda, for sure.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 17, 2014, 08:11:36 pm
       Well, I am indeed surprised & honored. I am not worthy   ;)(http://)

        I never dreamed I would be the subject of a whole thread (It's OK. As I said "I'm honored").

       I've already asked Ace the first question which must be answered off-forum. I'll wait for his answer before I say more. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 17, 2014, 08:35:08 pm
Will report after I meet with Mondello's about this.

I like to make everyone's project fun!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on January 18, 2014, 11:39:00 pm
I'd love to see their comments on the standard inlet and exhaust tracts, and the way the factory fitted the valve seats with the valve sides protruding into the combustion chamber and the other (on the inlet side) sticking out into the inlet tract. :o Plenty to keep them busy... 

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 19, 2014, 04:50:32 pm
Well, on this particular head, the inlet port entry measures 38mm wide by 39mm tall.
Perfect for about 8500 rpm, which would never be seen by this engine.
Gotta wonder what these people at RE are thinking!!!??
At least the carb flange has a 33mm I.D. so we can actually use that part.

Anyway, the valve seat installation on this particular head don't seem to have much excessive overhang. Probably varies from head to head, just like we see on the Iron Barrel.
The valves seem to be the same diameter as the ones in the UCE. Chamber too.
We will upgrade these valve springs to do away with that strange AVL valve behavior at 5800 rpm.

The good news is that it looks like there could be a good fit for the same roller rockers that we use on the Big Head. This would be a plus!

Since I'm not expecting Tooseevee to be running around much at 8500 rpm, I'll see what I can get the guys at Mondello's to recommend about making this port smaller, for an appropriate rev range for this street engine.

Will need to raise the compression some. Will need to discuss this with Tooseevee.

Tooseevee's main goals are midrange torque, and easier highway cruising at moderate rpms.

Overall initial impressions are that we can help this head out quite a bit.
Port is crazy large. Valves are not.
Looks like a good candidate for roller rockers.
Piston may need changing if the valve lift gets too close to the flat top piston crown. Compression would need adjustment to suit the rocker ratio change.
Build quality of the head looks fairly good, compared to the Iron Barrel.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on January 19, 2014, 09:53:01 pm
If you could find a way to eliminate the valve bounce on the standard cams that would be a major step forward...  8)

Perhaps a more secure valve collet arrangement could also be devised.

Regards,

A
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 19, 2014, 10:36:24 pm
If you could find a way to eliminate the valve bounce on the standard cams that would be a major step forward...  8)

Perhaps a more secure valve collet arrangement could also be devised.

Regards,

A
Hi Adrian,
I think our beehive springs will do it.
With the kind of harmonic control they have, I would be surprised if any bounce remained.
We'll have a look at the collects too.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 19, 2014, 11:51:13 pm

Will need to raise the compression some. Will need to discuss this with Tooseevee.
Piston may need changing if the valve lift gets too close to the flat top piston crown. Compression would need adjustment to suit the rocker ratio change.

            Uh oh   :-\   Yer scarin' me a little   :)(http://)

             
             
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 20, 2014, 01:48:43 am
            Uh oh   :-\   Yer scarin' me a little   :)(http://)

Okay.
Well, let me formulate up a plan of attack first, and then we can commence with the real scarin'!
 ;D

             
           
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on January 20, 2014, 01:59:31 pm
Oh this is cool. Thanks 2CV for taking the first plunge for us AVLers
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 20, 2014, 03:04:43 pm
Oh this is cool. Thanks 2CV for taking the first plunge for us AVLers

We will soon know if we can use our roller rocker package from the Big Head Iron Barrel in this AVL head. If we can, then that holds big promise for the power potential from these AVL engines, and wouldn't require an entire new development process.
Just from my initial eyeballing of the rocker area, it looks promising that it might work.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on January 20, 2014, 03:21:24 pm
You sure have your work cut out for you right now Ace!  Between taking on 2CVs AVL AND my twin heads, you must be really crunching some new numbers you haven't had to deal with before.  But I can't think of anyone else that could possibly work the magic better than you can.  :)  I really hope those Big head rockers will fit the AVL.  That'd be sick!

Scottie
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 20, 2014, 03:49:29 pm
You sure have your work cut out for you right now Ace!  Between taking on 2CVs AVL AND my twin heads, you must be really crunching some new numbers you haven't had to deal with before.  But I can't think of anyone else that could possibly work the magic better than you can.  :)  I really hope those Big head rockers will fit the AVL.  That'd be sick!

Scottie

Yes, it's been arduous for a while, because every different kind of head that came in the door needed a new development project, and it was killing us with R&D work.
But now, we have some of them under our belt already, and it would be nice if we could use some of our already developed stuff on these other heads coming in.

Of course, Scottie, YOUR heads are the "oddball" heads that need another whole new development project. Sheesh!! 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 21, 2014, 12:59:36 pm
It has come to my attention via "the grapevine" that our Ace Magnum Cams have been successfully used in an AVL engine. I knew this could be done, but I didn't know if it would solve the valve bounce issue that is present with the stock cams, so I didn't try to pursue that.
I still don't know for sure, because the person who tried them didn't really know that there was a valve bounce issue, so maybe he doesn't rev it up much.
But, it could give some added lift to the AVL Engine which the AVL desperately needs. It's not a huge amount of lift increase, but it's the same as the Fireball,  and it dropped right into the AVL with no other changes needed except for lengthening the pushrods and removing the valve lifter thing, just like the 'S cams' need.
So, details are slim, but we do know that they drop in and give added lift and performance increase. We don't know for sure if the valve bounce still happens, but the person reporting says he doesn't notice any.

Like I said, I have avoided pushing these for AVL use before, but I got this report from somebody who tried it, so I'm passing the info along to anyone who might be interested.

Please do not construe this to be any attempt to horn-in on the S Cams from Bullet Whisperer. We are tight with B.W., and we wouldn't do that. And the S Cams have had much more conclusive testing done on them.
I really only mention it as a relatively easy way to get some more lift in the AVL.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 21, 2014, 07:21:09 pm
Wow this is great news considering BW has said he will no longer offer the S cams.  i would really like to see some more tests done. unfortunately i dont have to $ to do it at the moment.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on January 21, 2014, 08:56:06 pm
Wow this is great news considering BW has said he will no longer offer the S cams.  i would really like to see some more tests done. unfortunately i dont have to $ to do it at the moment.
Never say never ! - there are a good number of these in use now, both in the U.K and overseas. It seemed a load of hassle for some to get money to me, but recently, better options have worked with less trouble. That said, they are not cheap and can take a long time to arrive here after I order a batch to be made. I could live just as easily without them - I certainly wouldn't get rich out of doing them, but I've enjoyed others telling me they do for their machines just as they did for my test machine when I first tried them  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 21, 2014, 09:39:36 pm
I would prefer that the S Cams be considered the main choice for AVL owners. We would recommend spring changes and other changes when attempting to deploy any of our cams.

Having a happy working relationship with B.W. is much more important to us than moving a few sets of cams.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on January 21, 2014, 10:36:00 pm
+2 to what Ace and BW both said.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 21, 2014, 10:59:58 pm
i wouldnt mind paying a little extra in a while, if there is easier ways to pay.  especially since the S cams are already very reputable.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 21, 2014, 11:06:20 pm
I would also love seeing the big head roller rockers on my AVL head.  I feel like i might be the youngest guy on this forum, and i dont want to be judged when i say i would like the fastest avl haha.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on January 22, 2014, 04:25:45 pm
The fastest 500 AVL is probably Basanti's track bike in India, he has done the squish band modification and various racing mods as well as the S cams. Perhaps if there IS enough demand for another batch of cams in the US, BW could market them through Ace, rather then send lots of individual sets over the Atlantic.

One more concern on the technical front, for a seriously thrashed engine I would want to replace the cam followers (and guides) on the AVL engine with the much more robust items from the C.I. engine, ideally the Samarat thicker stem version with the hard chromed feet and bronze guides. I have had a set of the AVL cam followers fail (the foot snaps off and bounces around in the timing cover looking for other things to damage) as they are not really up to the job.  >:(  With the stock rockers this needs the push rods extending by approximately 3/8", but as you would be using custom push rods this should not bother you too much!

Have fun, guys!  :)

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 22, 2014, 04:35:48 pm
Some good suggestions there, Adrian.
Thanks!

On the subject of Tooseevee ' s head, it is at Mondello's awaiting a flow test and some quotes on 2 different types of mods based on different budgets.
I don't know yet exactly how far Tooseevee wants to go with this thing, so I will offer some options.

However, they will be evaluating the use of our roller rocker kit on the AVL head, so that we will know if it is viable, or if it would need some changes. So we will get that information out of this process.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bill Harris on January 22, 2014, 05:42:34 pm
I too, have had a cam follower fail in the Harris Scrambler.  This is one of the weak points in the AVL engine and needs some attention.

Cheers,
Bill
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on January 23, 2014, 02:33:11 pm
My guess is that the factory wanted to shed some weight in the valve train, not such a good idea.  I should have specified the 3/8" figure was for my project bike with S cams and modded C.I. crankcases, other engines may differ!

A.

Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: AVL Power! on January 23, 2014, 03:32:07 pm
The fastest 500 AVL is probably Basanti's track bike in India, he has done the squish band modification and various racing mods as well as the S cams. Perhaps if there IS enough demand for another batch of cams in the US, BW could market them through Ace, rather then send lots of individual sets over the Atlantic.

One more concern on the technical front, for a seriously thrashed engine I would want to replace the cam followers (and guides) on the AVL engine with the much more robust items from the C.I. engine, ideally the Samarat thicker stem version with the hard chromed feet and bronze guides. I have had a set of the AVL cam followers fail (the foot snaps off and bounces around in the timing cover looking for other things to damage) as they are not really up to the job.  >:(  With the stock rockers this needs the push rods extending by approximately 3/8", but as you would be using custom push rods this should not bother you too much!

Have fun, guys!  :)

A.

I still think BW's AVL was faster because I never saw Basanti posting speed specs higher than 150kph.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 23, 2014, 06:27:26 pm
Ace,

        Not rushing you at all on the other ideas, but are you going to recommend the TM-32 as a carb choice?

        I can still get one for 127 free shipping. I'll order it soon before that offer goes away if you approve.

         Plus I want to set it on my coffee table & stare at it while visions of warm weather, a running engine & thumping drum in my head   :)   ;)(http://)

          PS: It's F-ing freezing here. Got to run the Husquevarna snow blower twice this week.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 23, 2014, 06:40:49 pm
Ace,

        Not rushing you at all on the other ideas, but are you going to recommend the TM-32 as a carb choice?

        I can still get one for 127 free shipping. I'll order it soon before that offer goes away if you approve.

         Plus I want to set it on my coffee table & stare at it while visions of warm weather, a running engine & thumping drum in my head   :)   ;)(http://)

          PS: It's F-ing freezing here. Got to run the Husquevarna snow blower twice this week.

If you are satisfied that a peak power rpm of  6000 rpm is okay for you, then the TM32 will do fine. You only need the TM34 if the desired rpms are higher than 6000 rpm. They will both fit the manifold, so you can pick the one you want, based on your needs.
And as the rpm requirements go higher, even larger carbs can be needed.
It depends on your desires.

I need to know which one you pick, so we can port the head to suit.
This means filling the port floor up with some filler, so that it can be made smaller for this application. The port size as it comes from the factory is too big for normal purposes. A smaller port diameter will help your midrange torque and cruising power, which seems to be what you are wanting, right?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 23, 2014, 07:40:31 pm
If you are satisfied that a peak power rpm of  6000 rpm is okay for you, then the TM32 will do fine. You only need the TM34 if the desired rpms are higher than 6000 rpm. They will both fit the manifold, so you can pick the one you want, based on your needs.
And as the rpm requirements go higher, even larger carbs can be needed.
It depends on your desires.

I need to know which one you pick, so we can port the head to suit.
This means filling the port floor up with some filler, so that it can be made smaller for this application. The port size as it comes from the factory is too big for normal purposes. A smaller port diameter will help your midrange torque and cruising power, which seems to be what you are wanting, right?

           With my age & riding habits today, 6,000 is all I'll ever need or want.

            I concur with all you say above.

             I'm a bit concerned going beyond doing all we can to the head only to make it work as well as possible & to work well with the TM-32. I think that's enough for me.

              Going into pistons & compression &/or cams seems a little scary to me now. Not because of ability, but simply "why". That plus I don't want to have something else to do Next Time or whatever plus my own physical limitations. I manage a half hour at a time most days.

             I could change a piston, no problem, but that could lead to more. And more. I want to be just riding by April & I don't want to take it apart again next winter to do something else.

             Do you get what I'm getting at?

             I'll order the TM-32 this afternoon.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: TejK on January 30, 2014, 06:34:23 pm
Guys , just wondering .....


.....are we there yet ?

Wondering what Ace will develop for the AVL kit.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 30, 2014, 11:01:22 pm
Guys , just wondering .....


.....are we there yet ?

Wondering what Ace will develop for the AVL kit.
No, we are not there with a kit yet.

What we are doing is meeting the goals for Tooseevee with this effort. During the process, we are gaining and have gained the necessary information to allow us to know how to approach this engine for various stages of modifications. We needed to get an AVL head in our hands to see its characteristics and evaluate and develop modification strategies . We will then be able to do custom jobs on AVL heads and  certain parts at whatever power level and application might be desired by the owner. This is what we do with all the Bullets. The "kit" is just one possible permutation that happens to be a popular one for a typical street rod application. All our jobs are custom jobs, hand done, one at a time, so any custom desires can be worked into the job on request. We already know most everything we need to know about modding these heads, and we are soon to know the rest of the details.

If anyone wants a job on their AVL head, please don't feel like you have to wait. We can begin moving on your job as soon as you wish to contact us to discuss your needs.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 31, 2014, 03:30:47 pm
      The Mikuni TM-32 arrived yesterday. Nice looking carburetor.

       Some initial observations:
           Very light
           Very different feel to the slide vs BS-29 CV (yup, I know why)
           Much larger fuel inlet fitting
           HUGE filter side hole vs BS-29
           Much higher than the BS

           Can someone (who's actually used it) verify that Sudco throttle cable 021-947 is correct for this carb with stock handlebars? Why I ask is that the catalog sez it's for VM-34. I guess a lot of the VM & TM parts are the same?

            Also have those of you who have the TM-32 on an AVL put an angled Cable Adjuster on or did the vertical one work OK with the sharp turn? Was your frame tube a problem? Sudco has 40 & 90 degree ones listed.

              Ace - Do you have an old Ace Canister laying around  ???(http://) ?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: motoguzzibill on January 31, 2014, 04:23:44 pm
I recently put a TM-32 on my AVL. I modified the stock throttle cable to fit, just takes a little time and soldering. Bend/curve in the cable is not a problem. The bell mouth in the intake side of the carb is huge, 58 mm if I remember correctly. At the local ACE Hardware I found a black rubber-ish flexible 2"X4" connector which fit the bell mouth real well. I glued a UNI foam filter to the end of the connector, very clean fit. I chose to enlarge "opening" on the edge of the side cover to avoid rubbing between the connector and sidecover. Foam filter sits behind the sidecover, only the black connector from the carb mouth is visible. Clean, efficient,functional, and affordable. There is more intake noise at idle, but it is a big air pump.

I'm in the process of installing the "S" cams from BW, and waiting for the snow to melt. Looking forward to hearing/learning more about port modifications from ACE. My JB Weld is ready!
Bill N.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 31, 2014, 05:09:06 pm
I recently put a TM-32 on my AVL. I modified the stock throttle cable to fit, just takes a little time and soldering. Bend/curve in the cable is not a problem.
Bill N.

            You changed the ball on the end? What did you use? Is it a split ball you can find at a bike shop?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on January 31, 2014, 05:13:13 pm
The balls are just soldered on 2CV.  Use a small propane torch to heat it up, the solder will melt and the ball will come right off.  Make your adjustments to the cable housing and cable and then use a vice or something to hold ball in place and solder the cable back on using either the torch or a good soldering iron.  Not difficult at all.

Scottie
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 31, 2014, 06:16:43 pm
The balls are just soldered on 2CV.  Use a small propane torch to heat it up, the solder will melt and the ball will come right off.  Make your adjustments to the cable housing and cable and then use a vice or something to hold ball in place and solder the cable back on using either the torch or a good soldering iron.  Not difficult at all.

Scottie

           I realize that, Scottie. I've done it changing to S&S carbs on harleys. But you can't put the same BS-29 ball back on the RE cable.

           The stock RE throttle cable ball end for the BS-29 won't fit the TM-32; it's way bigger. Hence my question to motoguzziguy since he says he's done it: Is the cable ball for the TM a Mikuni piece you can get at a bike shop? You can't use the same ball.

            Maybe you file it down to fit. Fine. Just lookin' ahead & lookin' fer ideeers.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on January 31, 2014, 06:36:37 pm
Hi 2CV,

I had the same thought as you.  I just purchased a normal IB throttle cable for the VM series carbs (TM/VM cables use the same ball at the end).  However, that Sudco cable that Ace recommended looks WAY better. 

Based on what I've read, a few folks have used the angled cable adjuster and others haven't.  Seems to work either way and i'll be without it as it all lines up for me ok. 

How about the spring in the TM?  Like wrestling a greased up weasel trying to stuff it all back in, eh?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: boggy on January 31, 2014, 07:45:52 pm
Ace,
I'm excited to hear what you can do with the AVL and when I have something else to ride I will certainly be in touch about performance upgrades.  I have half a mind to ship you my whole damn bike, but we'll see.

Exciting stuff.  Good luck.

Boggy
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 31, 2014, 07:46:39 pm
Hi 2CV,

I had the same thought as you.  I just purchased a normal IB throttle cable for the VM series carbs (TM/VM cables use the same ball at the end).  However, that Sudco cable that Ace recommended looks WAY better. 

Based on what I've read, a few folks have used the angled cable adjuster and others haven't.  Seems to work either way and i'll be without it as it all lines up for me ok. 

How about the spring in the TM?  Like wrestling a greased up weasel trying to stuff it all back in, eh?

            I've pretty much decided to order the Sudco 021-947 cable that Ace recommends that has the correct ball on the end rather than fool with this stock BS-29 ball end, cutting the cable, cutting the housing & getting the free cable dimension right. PITA. May also go ahead & get an angled top tube, too. It just seems better to me for zero binding.

            Yes. You've got to hold your face right to get that spring back in   ;)(http://)

             The needle holder is easier in & out; no spring under it makes the screws way easier to install. No tweezers necessary. The needle is a 5-groove # 5 FP 17 with the clip in the center groove. 

              It has a D or O 52 Main Jet which I don't see on the parts diagram. And I don't find this needle part number either. I'm still not clear on the jets on this thing. What the hell are "Starter Jets"?  And the idle speed thingy works on the inclined plane idea. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on January 31, 2014, 10:10:12 pm
I have your baseline port low test results. I will post it when I get home.

Some of the info I reported previously on the port size was erroneous because something was wrong with my caliper and it was reading wrong. The port size is big, but not THAT big. Mondello's thinks they can port it to flow faster without filling the floor.

Regarding the jets for the TM32,  good starting point for jetting is:
30 pilot (22/210 type)
P4 needle jet (389 type)
Stock 5fp17 needle in middle position
195 main jet (4/042 type)

That will get you in the neighborhood.  You may have to do some changes for temperature changes.

We will install our alloy manifold on your head for mounting the TM32.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 01, 2014, 12:09:52 am
I have your baseline port low test results. I will post it when I get home.

Some of the info I reported previously on the port size was erroneous because something was wrong with my caliper and it was reading wrong. The port size is big, but not THAT big. Mondello's thinks they can port it to flow faster without filling the floor.

Regarding the jets for the TM32,  good starting point for jetting is:
30 pilot (22/210 type)
P4 needle jet (389 type)
Stock 5fp17 needle in middle position
195 main jet (4/042 type)

That will get you in the neighborhood.  You may have to do some changes for temperature changes.

We will install our alloy manifold on your head for mounting the TM32.

           Awright. Sounds good. Can't wait to hear more & I'm sure others will be interested also.

           I looked more carefully at the carb later this afternoon & finally it all came clear. I couldn't find the pilot jet. Finally found it. They have put a large plastic & brass collar around the main jet. You have to remove the main jet out which lets you remove the collar. Then you can see the pilot jet at the bottom of a long tube & remove it. You cannot see it or remove it without pulling the main jet first. And I also know what 'starter jets' are now.

          I like the way the floats ride up & down on their own little pins.
          I'll have to get used to the mixture screw being an air screw; CW rich, CCW lean. It arrived 1 1/2 turns out.
          And the idle speed screw is the coolest I've ever seen.
 
          What's in there now is:
                   Main jet:     #250
                   Pilot Jet:     #45
                   Needle:       #5 FP 17 clip in middle of 5 grooves
                   Needle Jet:  #Q2
           I'll order some jets with the throttle cable.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 01, 2014, 12:34:59 am
The only pain in the ass with the TM32 is that it only comes with the cold starting knob on the left side. This is a bit awkward to operate because it is way under the tank. If this is a problem that is too irritating,  then Sudco makes a conversion kit to change the knob to a cable connection, and it can be cable operated with a handlebar mounted choke lever. You have to buy all the parts separately,  but it can be done.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 01, 2014, 01:24:31 am
The only pain in the ass with the TM32 is that it only comes with the cold starting knob on the left side. This is a bit awkward to operate because it is way under the tank. If this is a problem that is too irritating,  then Sudco makes a conversion kit to change the knob to a cable connection, and it can be cable operated with a handlebar mounted choke lever. You have to buy all the parts separately,  but it can be done.

           That won't bother me a bit. The BS-29 richener is on the left.

            I never ride in the cold now & don't even like it cool so I very seldom ever had to use the richener on the BS-29. I had it just a hair rich I think & it always started with one or two kicks all last season, no richener. Maybe three kicks for the first start if it was a cool morning, no richener.

             I sometimes had to fondle the throttle for 30 seconds, but then it would idle on its own. I realize the TM might act different not being a CV.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 01, 2014, 01:40:08 am
Okay, here's the flow test results for the AVL head.
Test done at 28" H20 on Mondello's Superflow Flow Bench

Lift        Intake cfm      Exhaust cfm
.050"        26.9               22.2
.100"        56.2               47.6
.150"        83.7               69.6
.200"       108.5              90.5
.250"       131.8             113.2
.300"       152.2             123.8 (Max lift with stock cams or S cams)
.350"       162.5             125.6  (Max lift with Ace Magnum cams)
.400"       170.9             122.0  (Exhaust port begins backing up)
.450"       176.3             119.6  (Exhaust port continues to decline)
.500"       182.4             118.7
.550"       186.4             118.6
.600"       189.5             118.3

Average intake flow up to .300" lift with stock cams = 93.216 cfm
Average intake flow up to .350" lift with Ace Magnum Cams  = 103.115 cfm
Average flow and peak flow would increase further if ratio roller rockers were installed.
All flow at all lifts would also increase with porting and valve job.
Obviously if lifts go over .350" the exhaust port will need to be ported/cured of the restriction causing it to back up at higher lifts.

Flow rates are not too much different than the stock Iron Barrel head. Similar modifications of porting, cams and/or ratio rockers, valve spring upgrades, would be recommended to bring it up to Fireball standards. For a reference, the Fireball intake flows 195 cfm at .350" lift, and averages 121.75 cfm up to .350" lift.
With big roller rockers on this head, and a good porting and bigger valves, it could exceed the Fireball flow, and get into the racing head territory pretty well. That's not necessary for most street applications, but the options are there.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on February 04, 2014, 02:47:24 am
This is great data and information. Thanks Ace for sharing the flow rates of the AVL. Lots of provoking thoughts right now.

Did you and 2CV agree to what's going to be done?  New springs I've read, larger exhaust port or value upgrade?  I'm seriously considering sending mine off to you to get the most out of bw's s cams (street only).
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 04, 2014, 03:15:38 am
This is great data and information. Thanks Ace for sharing the flow rates of the AVL. Lots of provoking thoughts right now.

Did you and 2CV agree to what's going to be done?  New springs I've read, larger exhaust port or value upgrade?  I'm seriously considering sending mine off to you to get the most out of bw's s cams (street only).
Yes, the mods will be essentially like we do with the Fireball head on the Iron Barrel, adapted to the AVL head requirements.
No special cams or rockers, so the lift will remain the same as stock.
No changes to the piston.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: REpozer on February 04, 2014, 04:01:58 am
Ace, what general up grades ( if any) do you recommend for lower end of the AVL with Fire Ball?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 04, 2014, 12:26:43 pm
Ace, what general up grades ( if any) do you recommend for lower end of the AVL with Fire Ball?

Well, it depends on how well the factory did with each particular bike. In theory, the AVL supposedly has all the necessary upgrades already in it. It has the roller bearing on the big end of a steel con rod, and high output oil pumps, and an alloy barrel as standard equipment.  Where the questions arise with the AVL, are whether they put it all together well enough to ensure that it will hold up.

If you would like to know what I think might be the places where stress failures might occur on a higher output AVL, I think it would be in the bearings. The bearings are the same as the Iron Barrel engine, which would be okay if they were very high quality units like we put in with rhe Fireball. I think it's pretty clear that the factory opts for bearings that are quite a bit lower in cost, and so they often don't take any added stress very well. With the AVL roller big end bearing, it's just like the UCE. Depending whether they got the hardening correct on the big end eye of the con rod, it might hold up fine if it also got the proper clearance during assembly. If it didn't get good heat treating and proper clearance, then it won't.  We can't say what will happen because of variance in manufacturing.

For an AVL owner looking g to upgrade and do things to try to overcome these potential issues, I would say to get a good set of bearings like we use, and get an outer race installed in the con rod which is precision honed to proper clearance for a new top quality roller bearing like an Alpha bearing. Rebuild the crank with precise truing to minimize vibration.
These are the things we do with the Fireball. With an iron barrel bike, it's obviously needed to change all the bottom end parts out before trying to upgrade the power. With the AVL, it is less obvious, and it may, or may not, be necessary for a mild/moderate power increase. For a big power increase, I would go ahead and do a full upgrade to the bottom end in advance.

With the behavior of bearings in failure mode, they give plenty of warning with knocks and other bad sounds when the begin failing. So it is conceivably okay to try the power mods on the stock bottom end, and if it holds up to it, then fine. If it starts knocking after maybe 1500 miles, then it wasn't okay, and you need to open it up and do the bottom end work to it. Otherwise, it could all be done at first as a preventive measure. We have no way of knowing which engines will be able to handle the power upgrades the best. It was determined at the time of the bike's manufacture. Lower power upgrades are more likely to do okay without bottom end mods than big power upgrades would be. If you do the bottom end work first, then it will handle any power upgrade level that you might want to choose.
These choices are made by each owner. The above info can be a guideline. I can't say for certain what engine can withstand what level of power in factory form. It is very much a "luck of the draw" situation of how well the factory did on your specific machine.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 07, 2014, 04:24:43 pm
      Ace, the TM comes with a #45 Pilot & a #250 Main.

      You recommended a while back that I start tuning with a #30 & a #195.

      Should I order Pilots from #30 to #40 (3) & Mains from #195 to #240 (6)? 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 07, 2014, 04:36:18 pm
      Ace, the TM comes with a #45 Pilot & a #250 Main.

      You recommended a while back that I start tuning with a #30 & a #195.

      Should I order Pilots from #30 to #40 (3) & Mains from #195 to #240 (6)?

You might want pilot jets 27.5, 30, a 32.5, and a 35, maybe. Just for some potentials for tuning adjustments in unusual circumstances of elevation or temperature.
I think the mains might be good to have 180, 185, 190, 195, 200. It would be very unusual to need over 200 main  jet.
The needle jets are probably more critical for average riding. They control the cruising range of the engine, so you feel them most, and they affect the response and fuel economy in the most used rpm range.
I would get  P2, P4, P6, P8 needle jets.
And I would get a 6DP17 needle, for getting leaner adjustments if you were to go high up in elevation in the summer, ever.

In the peak heat of the summer, you need leaner jetting.
In the dead cold of winter, you need richer jetting.
In the shoulder seasons, you are somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 09, 2014, 04:56:31 pm
       Went to the jap bike store yesterday & ordered the Sudco throttle cable for the TM-32 & a 90 degree cable adjuster for the top. I don't want any sharp bends.

       This morning I took the switch assembly off (2 screws) that houses the throttle cable rotator & removed that. I left the cable in place. I'm hoping I can snake the new one through using the old one to pull it through with. Probably won't work & I'll end up pulling the headlight out.
Oh, well    ;)  Don't want to screw up a connector in the rat's nest.

          I noticed on the bottom half of the switch assembly there's a threaded hole with nothing in it. Does any know? It looks like it could have been some kind of primitive cruise control on another bike.

          Has anyone run their throttle cable NOT through the nacelle?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 09, 2014, 05:14:55 pm

.......I noticed on the bottom half of the switch assembly there's a threaded hole with nothing in it. Does any know? It looks like it could have been some kind of primitive cruise control on another bike.......


Not really Cruise Control.  There's supposed to be a set screw in there, more of a tensioner on the actual throttle grip housing.  I always have mine set so it doesn't make any contact as I like my throttle to "snap" back closed when I let go of it.  I would try and put a screw back in there if for nothing else to keep dirt and grime out of there.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 09, 2014, 07:10:52 pm
Not really Cruise Control.  There's supposed to be a set screw in there, more of a tensioner on the actual throttle grip housing.  I always have mine set so it doesn't make any contact as I like my throttle to "snap" back closed when I let go of it.  I would try and put a screw back in there if for nothing else to keep dirt and grime out of there.

Scottie J

           I agree with you; I want no hesitation on returning to idle. Been there, done that.

           I have maybe 16 pounds of assorted machine screws down there in coffee cans. Waddayoo wanna bet I never find a screw that'll thread into that hole?  :o  ;)(http://)

            I'm thinkin' a little blob of J-BWeld  :o(http://)  Done, done & done.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 09, 2014, 07:22:46 pm
J-B Putty Stick would be perfect for that.   ;)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Mr.Mazza on February 10, 2014, 09:24:08 am
That does give one the idea of making a basic cruise control, or for better terms, throttle holding latch.
Various notches on your bars next to the throttle and a small latch on the thing itself? Lock into place and hold throttle open?
Obviously a quick releasing system ;)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 10, 2014, 01:13:21 pm
That does give one the idea of making a basic cruise control, or for better terms, throttle holding latch.
Various notches on your bars next to the throttle and a small latch on the thing itself? Lock into place and hold throttle open?
Obviously a quick releasing system ;)

Not much point in that when you can buy ACTUAL cruise control for $35.  Though I must emphasize that these throttle lock cruise controls are more for fucking around than using for cruise control.  They are really only worth a crap if you're driving through Nebraska mile upon mile of flat road.  They work good for giving your throttle hand a rest on long rides too, but that's about it.

http://www.bikebandit.com/universal-vista-cruise

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 11, 2014, 01:27:25 pm
That does give one the idea of making a basic cruise control, or for better terms, throttle holding latch.
Various notches on your bars next to the throttle and a small latch on the thing itself? Lock into place and hold throttle open?
Obviously a quick releasing system ;)

           Speaking only for myself, of course, I have no use for cruise control on the Enfield. I just don't do that kind of riding any more. I don't think I've cruised in any one gear without a throttle change for more than 15 minutes since the Summer of 2010 when I first got on the thing. The Enfield's not exactly a marathon long distance runner at full throttle til the next fuel stop.

           Other bikes built for that job - yes.

            I do use it in my wife's car on the way to Home Depot, but that's about my only experience with cruise control. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: mattjohnson207 on February 11, 2014, 07:52:51 pm
Tooseevee...just did my throttle cable, noticed the same thing....I have a '90 k75 bmw that uses a primitive throttle lock screw right there...guess we didn't get ours.
The throttle cable went in like butter after I figured it out,   Put the  ball less end thru the  throttle hole then slip the slit stepped collet over the bear cable.  Cable easily slides thru the dedicated cable hole in the nacelle
  Matt
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 12:21:16 am
Okay, so at Mondello's today, we hatched the plan of attack.
I have emailed Tooseevee with some of the details, and some requests for measurements.

Basically, we need to have more space at the valve to let more air in.
If cams or rockers are not wanted in the job, then that leaves bigger valves. So, that's what we plan.

The approach is more valve area via bigger diameter valves, and to unshroud the bigger valves by doing some re-shaping of the combustion chamber to allow better flow out of the bigger valves. This will also require new valve seats.
The chamber will be cc'd prior to the work, so we know the starting volume of the chamber before we do anything to it. After we do the flow relief work around the valves, we will weld up some aluminum in another part of the chamber, and  grind it and shape it to help out the flow over there in that part. And we will adjust the chamber volume with this added metal to have the same cc volume as it had previously, so that the compression will not be adversely affected. When it's done, the chamber will have a somewhat different shape, much improved, bigger valves, but the same cc's of volume and compression.

In this case of larger valves, it is possible that even with the standard lift, and depending on how far down the bore the piston is at TDC, we may have to provide clearance for the valves by fly-cutting valve relief pockets in the piston crown. This is not an unusual procedure in performance work. Then we have some room to work our plan without the piston banging into the valves over TDC.
Basically, we have to do something to get more room to let air in around the valves.  Cams, rockers, or bigger valves. Pick one, or more.

And to all you other AVL owners out there who may experience issues with interference in piston-to-valve clearance over TDC, we can fly-cut your piston too, if you need it, and it is a quite inexpensive procedure to do. Much much cheaper than a new piston. There is a limit to how far it can be cut into the crown, but if you are doing big time lift mods that go beyond what we are doing in this job, then you will need another piston anyway, and most of you contemplating anything like that would already realize this.

So, we have a pretty good plan here. Depending on how the location of the piston at TDC works out, we may or may not have to do anything with that. If we do, then it isn't too expensive of a job to provide clearance relief cuts in it, and this gives a route to anyone else with an AVL needing to do that. Just send in your piston if you need it done.

Of course, this job gets all the other Fireball stuff like the beehives and Fireball valve gear hardware and installation methods, and the performance coatings too.

Waiting for a response from Tooseevee about it.

Tom
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on February 12, 2014, 01:03:19 am
Cool. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

Ace, how do you measure the piston clearance?  Considering you have the head and 2cv has the rest of it. Curious....
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 01:21:37 am
Cool. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

Ace, how do you measure the piston clearance?  Considering you have the head and 2cv has the rest of it. Curious....
He has to give me the measurement of how far down in the hole that the piston is at TDC, and also the thickness of the head gasket. Then I can know how far the valve can come down without touching. The cam profile will dictate how far the valve will be out at TDC, and I have a set of AVL cams in my possession, so I can get that from the profile.

With the AVL cams intake valve only beginning to open at 9*BTDC, it won't be open very much at TDC. But, it depends on how high up the piston is. If the piston is not right up to the top, and we have a 1mm gasket thickness or something like that, we might have enough room.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on February 12, 2014, 02:13:38 am
Thanks Ace. Same procedure with S cams?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 02:23:01 am
Thanks Ace. Same procedure with S cams?
Same basic procedure, but the S Cams open the intake earlier with their longer duration. This means that the valves are more open around TDC, which means more likelihood of valve to piston clearance issues.

It can be done, as long as I can get the owner to take the measurements that I need, and do it accurately.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 03:23:12 pm
I would also like to note that because of the similarities between the valves and chamber of the AVL and the UCE, all these same options can be available for the UCE too.
So, if any UCE owners want a big valve kit for their UCE, and don't want cams or rocker changes, we can accommodate.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 04:55:19 pm
He has to give me the measurement of how far down in the hole that the piston is at TDC, and also the thickness of the head gasket. Then I can know how far the valve can come down without touching. The cam profile will dictate how far the valve will be out at TDC, and I have a set of AVL cams in my possession, so I can get that from the profile.

With the AVL cams intake valve only beginning to open at 9*BTDC, it won't be open very much at TDC. But, it depends on how high up the piston is. If the piston is not right up to the top, and we have a 1mm gasket thickness or something like that, we might have enough room.

It looks like his piston is about right at the top of the barrel at TDC, so no extra room there.
I asked him to pull the piston and send it to me for relief cutting of the crown for valve clearance.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: 1 Thump on February 12, 2014, 05:36:25 pm
I would also like to note that because of the similarities between the valves and chamber of the AVL and the UCE, all these same options can be available for the UCE too.
So, if any UCE owners want a big valve kit for their UCE, and don't want cams or rocker changes, we can accommodate.

Ace,

Could you indicate the anticipated ball park performance with this mod, along with the usual free flow and carb upgrades.

Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 12, 2014, 06:43:39 pm
Ace,

Could you indicate the anticipated ball park performance with this mod, along with the usual free flow and carb upgrades.

I can't right now, because this is the first AVL we have done, and we don't have any flow results from the porting yet. I can provide a decent estimate based on the ported flow test info, after that gets done.

The bottom line is that we always do the best we can,  based on whatever budget limitations or other limitations we have to observe for the customer's wishes.

As I mentioned earlier,  some of this stuff will give us good info about UCE mods, because of the similarity between them and the AVL. We can apply things we learn here to the UCE too.

If you would like a guess, I will say it should be around the Fireball power area. Not too sure about the shape of the power curve. Basically it will have similar valve size, similar compression, similar carb and exhaust, . The Fireball has more cam duration and lift, and 35 more cc displacement. The AVL has a little larger port, and has some of the stuff like alloy barrel and 8.5:1 piston, and steel rod and roller bearing, so it is less expensive to convert for power, as long as the factory parts hold up.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 12, 2014, 09:16:31 pm
      I'm VERY happy with what's going on so far & this guy (YOU, Ace) is just the best guy to work with that I've come across in a long time. We are SO lucky to have him & the Mondello guys.

       I hammered on the cylinder for a while this afternoon with a
block of hardwood & my 4 pound, coxcombed harley hammer. No luck. Dead arm. These guys ceMENT the gaskets in Chennai. Later tonight I'm going down & drive a putty knife in horizontally all the way around. That'll do it.

       Then the piston will go off to Ace to have recesses calculated & cut into the top for the huge beautiful new F-ing valves!

        Stay tuned  :)   ;D   ;D(http://)

       
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on February 12, 2014, 11:30:03 pm
woah how much better would the upgrades be if you did the head and a 535cc big bore?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 13, 2014, 12:29:39 am
woah how much better would the upgrades be if you did the head and a 535cc big bore?

We are doing the head.
It's getting the full porting job, full Ace valve gear, big valves, chamber mods, and thermal barrier coatings on the chamber and exhaust port, Mikuni TM32 flatslide carb with Ace flow-matched alloy manifold, and free flow exhaust.
And the piston's getting relief cuts to clear the bigger valves when they are part open over TDC.
So, it's getting a lot.

It's just not getting cams or rockers, so the lift will remain the same. But the big valves will give more open valve area, even at the same lift, so that's why we are going that route.

Of course, it would do more if it got the cams or rockers too, but the desire of the owner was to keep the lift as it was, and do what else we could do. So, there you have it.

The 535 is good for about a horse and a half more. It can be done at any time, if he wants that. We can fly cut the valve reliefs in the flat top 535 piston too.

Basically, what we do is what the owner wants us to do. We can do practically anything that is wanted. Each job is custom.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on February 13, 2014, 02:16:19 am
      I'm VERY happy with what's going on so far & this guy (YOU, Ace) is just the best guy to work with that I've come across in a long time. We are SO lucky to have him & the Mondello guys.

       I hammered on the cylinder for a while this afternoon with a
block of hardwood & my 4 pound, coxcombed harley hammer. No luck. Dead arm. These guys ceMENT the gaskets in Chennai. Later tonight I'm going down & drive a putty knife in horizontally all the way around. That'll do it.

       Then the piston will go off to Ace to have recesses calculated & cut into the top for the huge beautiful new F-ing valves!

        Stay tuned  :)   ;D   ;D(http://)

     
Tooseevee,
You're going to be REALLY glad you did this. If you think that you loved your bike before... I'm excited for you man.
Chuck.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 14, 2014, 08:48:27 pm
   Just a quick update to keep the thread alive:

             The cylinder came right off once I drove a putty knife horizontal into the gasket from all 4 corners. Then it was just wiggle, wiggle, wiggle.

              The wrist pin keepers are very simple. Out in 2 seconds with a needle nose. The wrist pin slid right out after 5 minutes with the hair dryer.

              The worst part is getting the old gasket off both surfaces; no gouges allowed). It stewed all night in carb cleaner, but that evaporates too fast. Goo-Gone is pretty good. Still a finger-killer job. I should have bought some acetone, but what do I do with the rest of it? Don't need it.

              The piston & new head gasket were sent off to Ace at noon.

              All the jets for the TM are here; needle, pilots & mains. Gonna stick with the stock needle to begin with. They're pricey & the stock one has 5 grooves. Waiting on throttle cable. When that gets here I can set it up & adjust it to the carb. I hope I'm lucky & the free cable length at the carb end is right.

                 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 15, 2014, 04:43:07 pm
 
......The worst part is getting the old gasket off both surfaces; no gouges allowed). It stewed all night in carb cleaner, but that evaporates too fast. Goo-Gone is pretty good. Still a finger-killer job. I should have bought some acetone, but what do I do with the rest of it? Don't need it......
               

That's what these are for.  They clean old gasket material in 10 seconds.  We go through a box every 2 or 3 weeks at the Subaru shop.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/RolocDiscs_zps95875819.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/RolocDiscs_zps95875819.jpg.html)

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 15, 2014, 06:01:24 pm
That's what these are for.  They clean old gasket material in 10 seconds.  We go through a box every 2 or 3 weeks at the Subaru shop.

Scottie J

           All done in 10 minutes this morning after a Goo-Gone douche overnight.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 15, 2014, 08:44:05 pm
           All done in 10 minutes this morning after a Goo-Gone douche overnight.

LMAO  Literally  ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 20, 2014, 04:08:10 pm
    Well, it's really warm here today & yesterday so I've been doing odds & ends.

    Yesterday I wrapped both hand grips & both levers with black cloth harness tape. They get very slick on a sweaty day 'specially in traffic.

    This morning I put the sleeve back on the exhaust valve lifter that holds the valve open; the AVL version of a compression release. This sleeve is captured on the lifter by a tiny circlip. It's a real SOB to get on; very fiddley & a tiny work area. After a half hour of trying to stay cool & remembering my old zen & TM days I finally got the look on my face just right ;D(http://) & it slipped on.

       There must be tool for these tiny damn things.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 23, 2014, 01:23:33 pm

Regarding the jets for the TM32,  good starting point for jetting is:
30 pilot (22/210 type)
P4 needle jet (389 type)
Stock 5fp17 needle in middle position
195 main jet (4/042 type)
That will get you in the neighborhood.  You may have to do some changes for temperature changes.

           I've switched the jets in the TM-32 from what it comes with to your recommendations above as a starting point.

           I have a question just for my own info: What's the difference to the engine switching from a Q-2 to a P-4 needle jet? Is it just a matter of the P-4 being richer (with the clip in any given groove) than the Q-2? And what's the difference between a Q & a P jet?

           I also have to make the switch in my brain about the mixture screw. The BS 29 was CCW richer being a fuel screw. The TM 32 is CW richer being an air screw. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 23, 2014, 01:40:08 pm
           I've switched the jets in the TM-32 from what it comes with to your recommendations above as a starting point.

           I have a question just for my own info: What's the difference to the engine switching from a Q-2 to a P-4 needle jet? Is it just a matter of the P-4 being richer (with the clip in any given groove) than the Q-2? And what's the difference between a Q & a P jet?

           I also have to make the switch in my brain about the mixture screw. The BS 29 was CCW richer being a fuel screw. The TM 32 is CW richer being an air screw.

The P4 is a leaner needle jet by a large amount. Q jets are a richer jet series than P jets. Lower letters and numbers are leaner, and get richer as you go up.  The range in the P series is P0, P2, P4, P6, P8, and then you get to Q0, Q2,...etc.
The needle jet is the primary fuel regulator from 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, along with some help from the needle. From 1/2 throttle to 3/4 throttle, the needle is the primary regulator, along with some help from the needle jet. In other words, the needle jet has stronger effect than the needle does at throttle settings below half throttle, and the needle has stronger effect at throttle settings more than half throttle. At half throttle, they have about the same effect. So, when you do your plug chops to check mixture at the different throttle positions, you know what to adjust.

You are correct about the air screw direction. The normal starting point for beginning the tune-up is the screw is 1.5 turns out from the fully in position. Any adjustment that is more than 3 turns out has gone beyond the adjustment range, and the next leaner jet needs to be installed, and start the screw process again. If the engine runs(doesn't die) with the screw fully in, then it needs the next richer jet, and start the screw adjustment process again.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 23, 2014, 02:13:37 pm
The P4 is a leaner needle jet by a large amount. Q jets are a richer jet series than P jets. Lower letters and numbers are leaner, and get richer as you go up.  The range in the P series is P0, P2, P4, P6, P8, and then you get to Q0, Q2,...etc.


             Olord  :)(http://) Of course. I should have realized that; the higher up in the alphabet, the richer the jet. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 23, 2014, 02:28:31 pm

The needle jet is the primary fuel regulator from 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, along with some help from the needle. From 1/2 throttle to 3/4 throttle, the needle is the primary regulator, along with some help from the needle jet. In other words, the needle jet has stronger effect than the needle does at throttle settings below half throttle, and the needle has stronger effect at throttle settings more than half throttle. At half throttle, they have about the same effect. So, when you do your plug chops to check mixture at the different throttle positions, you know what to adjust.

You are correct about the air screw direction. The normal starting point for beginning the tune-up is the screw is 1.5 turns out from the fully in position. Any adjustment that is more than 3 turns out has gone beyond the adjustment range, and the next leaner jet needs to be installed, and start the screw process again. If the engine runs(doesn't die) with the screw fully in, then it needs the next richer jet, and start the screw adjustment process again.

            Yup. I'm clear on all of this, but thanks for laying it all out so clearly.

             I learned a lot about these kinds of carbs from working with the BS-29 CV the bike came with. I really like them both (the BS & the TM). I enjoy taking them apart and putting them together.

             I was mostly used to S&S carbs on harleys before I got this RE. That's a really excellent, simple, very tuneable, highly perfected for the job, carb. Most people who bitch about them don't read the F-ing manual or have intake leaks or something else wrong with the basic engine or tuneup that's NOT carb related. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on February 23, 2014, 03:00:02 pm
....Most people who bitch about them don't read the F-ing manual or have intake leaks or something else wrong with the basic engine or tuneup that's NOT carb related. 

Like when I was on a bike cruise last summer and the one guy had to trailer his Hog back home because he just mounted his carb to the intake and never actually bolted it to anything and the carb kept falling right off?  LOL  ;D

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on February 23, 2014, 03:01:21 pm
Most carbs are okay, once you get used to working with them.
CV carbs are the least fussy because once they are set, the are pretty much self - adjusting for changing conditions. But, they are not as good for outright performance.

S & S is sort of like a side - draft version of a carb like was used on American cars with a booster and a butterfly valve. That is a typical vintage type layout for feeding multiple cylinders from the same carb.

IMHO,  the individual runner inlet system is the highest performance type, with an individual port and individual manifold, and individual carb for each cylinder. At least, that would be for normally aspirated systems. For blown applications, it's common to use a plenum system.
With singles, it's always an individual runner system because we only have one.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 27, 2014, 11:57:46 pm
      Does anyone out there have a couple of the hardened steel washers that go under the head stud nuts that they might want to give up?

      The two inner ones on my AVL were missing - from Day One, I think. These machined hardened washers need to be under your nuts or they don't seat properly.

      CMW doesn't have them so I'm not jeopardizing a sale.  These are Part #500321 in the AVL parts book.

       PS: No, my head's not back home yet   :((http://)

       PPS: A Joe Mondello car was sold on Mecum the other day. A 442, I believe, with a 600+HP engine.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on February 28, 2014, 12:36:40 am
Hi 2CV,

I don't have them... But, I scoped these out at my local true value (automotive, hardened washers). I don't know the size, but if you're in a pinch let me know and the appropriate size. I'll grab a few and post them.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 28, 2014, 02:25:39 am
Hi 2CV,

I don't have them... But, I scoped these out at my local true value (automotive, hardened washers). I don't know the size, but if you're in a pinch let me know and the appropriate size. I'll grab a few and post them.

            Don't make a special trip, but when you're there next check them out & I'll do the same here.

            The diameter is more important than the thickness; they have to fit into a milled recess. They are 5/8" (0.625") O.D. and 0.060" thick. I'm not sure what the hole is - 5/16"?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Arizoni on February 28, 2014, 05:04:03 am
2CV
I looked at Hitchcocks AVL parts list and couldn't find any hardened washers.
I did find 6 stainless steel washers that go under the cylinder head nuts.

In any case, why do they have to be hardened washers?
There is nothing moving against them that would create wear and hardening a piece of steel does not change the degree it will bend under load.  The modulus of elasticity of steel remains the same regardless of its hardness.

The Hitchcock site shows the nuts as M8 X 1.25 so the body diameter of the studs would be 8mm or .315 inches (5/16" for all practical purposes).

A regular 5/16" washer in the US will be about 3/4" in diameter.
There is a 17/64 ID and a 9/32 ID washer that is 5/8 outside diameter but they might be hard to find.
Finding a 1/4" ID washer with an outside diameter of 9/16" should be pretty easy and drilling out the hole to 5/16" would allow it to work fine.
Using it sure would be better than using nothing at all. :)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on February 28, 2014, 01:11:42 pm
2CV
I looked at Hitchcocks AVL parts list and couldn't find any hardened washers.
I did find 6 stainless steel washers that go under the cylinder head nuts.

              Those are the ones I need for the AVL. 4 were there, two were missing. Hitchcocks seems to list them for the ironhead, but not the AVL.  ??

In any case, why do they have to be hardened washers?
There is nothing moving against them that would create wear and hardening a piece of steel does not change the degree it will bend under load.  The modulus of elasticity of steel remains the same regardless of its hardness.

The Hitchcock site shows the nuts as M8 X 1.25 so the body diameter of the studs would be 8mm or .315 inches (5/16" for all practical purposes).

A regular 5/16" washer in the US will be about 3/4" in diameter.
There is a 17/64 ID and a 9/32 ID washer that is 5/8 outside diameter but they might be hard to find.
Finding a 1/4" ID washer with an outside diameter of 9/16" should be pretty easy and drilling out the hole to 5/16" would allow it to work fine.
Using it sure would be better than using nothing at all. :)

           *I* didn't decide *I* wanted hardened washers for under the cylinder head nuts. RE decided that & that is what's under the nuts on my AVL head & that's what's in the CMW catalog for ironheads & also in Hitchcock's. I don't know why they're not listed for AVL; they're in the AVL parts book, part #500321. They're in the CMW catalog for the older engines, not AVL. Page 13, Part #Z91008.

             These appear to be machined & hardened washers; they're not just regular washers out of the hardware store drawers. I read an analysis somewhere about why they're there but I can't recall where I read it.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on March 09, 2014, 10:12:51 pm
We are still waiting for Mondello's to clear out this nitro burning fuel dragster engine they have to finish before they can get back on our stuff.
We have to share the schedule.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on April 14, 2014, 01:36:28 pm
Ace,

    We're not putting new rings on my piston, right? (Less than 1,000 miles).
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on April 14, 2014, 01:56:48 pm
Ace,

    We're not putting new rings on my piston, right? (Less than 1,000 miles).

Nope. No new rings.
We are confining our piston work to valve reliefs on the crown, only. And only minimal ones that won't be deeper than necessary.
I'll be going to Mondello's tomorrow, so I'll see how it's going.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on April 14, 2014, 03:27:32 pm
Nope. No new rings.
We are confining our piston work to valve reliefs on the crown, only. And only minimal ones that won't be deeper than necessary.
I'll be going to Mondello's tomorrow, so I'll see how it's going.

            All is well. I won't start getting twitchy 'til around the 2nd week of May  :) ;)(http://) I'm entering my 3rd week as of today of fighting this horrible flu. Still can't kick the cough & the whole thing has drained me of all energy. I feel like anything I pick up weighs 100 pounds. I'm down to one pound less than I weighed in high school which should increase my power to weight ratio tremendously. After my engine's back together with its Ace modded head & piston & the Ace canistered TM tuned like a fine Stradivarius, I'll have to beware of lifting the front end off the ground & dumping myself in the street. Right now I'd be worried about being able to reach 20 pounds torque on all 6 head nuts in a single day    ;) Oh, poor Efing me   ;D(http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bill Harris on April 14, 2014, 06:31:40 pm
Tooseevee,

My 2006 AVL did not come with hardened washers under the head nuts in the rocker boxes too.  The nuts outside of the boxes do.  I have run it this way for 35,000 miles with no ill affects that I can see.  Maybe they are not needed in there.  The head nuts on my AVL have flanges on them.  Can someone shed some light on if hardened washers are needed or not under the nuts in the rocker boxes on a AVL engine?

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill     
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on April 14, 2014, 10:44:49 pm
Tooseevee,

My 2006 AVL did not come with hardened washers under the head nuts in the rocker boxes too.  The nuts outside of the boxes do.  I have run it this way for 35,000 miles with no ill affects that I can see.  Maybe they are not needed in there.  The head nuts on my AVL have flanges on them.  Can someone shed some light on if hardened washers are needed or not under the nuts in the rocker boxes on a AVL engine?

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill   

          Ya know, that's very interesting. You're the first to mention it since I mentioned it. Why do you suppose the 2 inside the boxes are missing? Must be from the factory. I was the first to pull my head & now you say you found the same thing.

           There are machined recesses for those 2 missing washers in the head, they are listed as Head Nut Washer (6) in the parts book & yet those 2 are not there. Do you suppose they just didn't want to fiddle around with getting them on the studs on the assembly line?

           Did your flanged nuts fit into the recesses? Mine didn't. The circumference of the flange grabbed the shoulder & would not fit into the recess to hit the bottom flat. The washer is necessary to fill that recess.

            Anyway. I found washers that fit the recess. I emoried both sides smooth & flat. I had to grind the hole just a hair to fit the stud.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on April 16, 2014, 12:49:08 pm
They are working on the combustion chamber re-shaping right now.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on April 16, 2014, 01:34:28 pm
They are working on the combustion chamber re-shaping right now.

           Here's how happy THAT makes me:  :) :)(http://) :) :)(http://) :)(http://)

            Do you think you could send me a picture when the seats are in & finished & beFORE you install the valves? I'd like to be able to document things to a new owner (which must happen some day no matter how much I don't want to think about it).
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on April 16, 2014, 02:54:09 pm
           Here's how happy THAT makes me:  :) :) :) :)(http://) :)(http://)

            Do you think you could send me a picture when the seats are in & finished & beFORE you install the valves? I'd like to be able to document things to a new owner (which must happen some day no matter how much I don't want to think about it).

Okay.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on April 16, 2014, 06:00:12 pm
Okay.

            :) :)(http://)

            PS: It snowed here last night.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 06, 2014, 06:39:47 pm
Okay, the custom valves came in, and the chamber and port work is commencing.
It is looking like a couple of weeks to completion now. Maybe less.

It appears that the head gasket is thick enough to provide enough piston to valve clearance, so I think we won't need to cut recesses into the piston crown.

Will update when we have some more info.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 06, 2014, 11:36:31 pm
Okay, the custom valves came in, and the chamber and port work is commencing.
It is looking like a couple of weeks to completion now. Maybe less.

It appears that the head gasket is thick enough to provide enough piston to valve clearance, so I think we won't need to cut recesses into the piston crown.

Will update when we have some more info.

            Happy Dance  :)   :)(http://) Happy Dance   :)(http://)

            Be really sure about the valve clearance (I know you will). It would be horrendous to jam a valve first trip down the road.

            Here's what I did a few weeks ago. I was bored:

 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 06, 2014, 11:39:26 pm
            Happy Dance  :)   :) Happy Dance   :)(http://)

            Be really sure about the valve clearance (I know you will). It would be horrendous to jam a valve first trip down the road.

            Here's what I did a few weeks ago. I was bored:

             And another
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on May 07, 2014, 06:42:54 pm
Looks good!  How did you do that?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 07, 2014, 10:37:32 pm
Looks good!  How did you do that?

           First take off as much as you can of the original black. I used the coarsest Scotch Brite. A doubled up piece works good between the fins until the fingers give out. Then do some more the next day:
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 07, 2014, 10:43:10 pm
Looks good!  How did you do that?

           Next make a mask using the head gasket as a pattern.

           Stick it down with Rubber Cement (it rubs right off later).
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 07, 2014, 11:19:15 pm
Looks good!  How did you do that?

           Spray with VHT High Temp Wrinkle Plus.

            Shoot 3 coats a full 5 minutes apart, each moving in a different direction. Lay it on heavy & shiny, but not to the point of runs which is easy here because the surfaces are horizontal. Be sure on the 5 minutes between coats, time it.

             Put it away & don't even look at it for 24 hours. Don't put it in the oven, don't hair dryer it, don't put it in the sun. The slower it cools, the better the wrinkles.

             24 hours after you look at all pretty wrinkles, put it in a 200 degree oven for an hour. I did a whole 80 inch shovel harley like this in the mid-80s. Practically every piece of the whole bike except the frame, handlebars, rear fender, gas tanks & pipes was wrinkle blacked on that bike. The tanks & fender were House of Kolors Black Black lacquer, the frame was powder coated black & the pipes were what was called Black Chrome then. It all still looked great (some had greyed a little) when I sold it in 1998 after two days in Walneck's.

           Here are the tanks from that bike:
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Arizoni on May 08, 2014, 01:31:21 am
When you get everything together and start riding it, look for signs of overheating.
If there are any it might be due to your wrinkle paint job.

There are flat black paints made for use on BBQ's and wood burning stoves that have almost no insulating qualities so they will work great on cylinder fins.  The heat will pass right thru them.

The wrinkle paint being used is good up to temperatures of 350*F so it should last on a finned cylinder.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to have on a cylinder though.

Just because a paint is called a High Temperature paint does not mean it has low insulating properties.  It means high temperatures won't cause the paint layer to break down.
The ability to allow heat to pass thru the paint layer is not true with many paints and I suspect a paint that wrinkles may in fact be rather poor at heat transfer.
The wrinkles themselves create thicker layers and that can't be good for letting heat pass thru them.

I did look at the available information for VHT Wrinkle Plus but it didn't have any data on heat transfer.
It did give several areas that can get up into the 200*F temperature range like valve covers but it did not include air cooled engine cylinder fins as a suggested place to apply it.

Hopefully it will not cause a problem.  It does look good on the fins.


Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 08, 2014, 03:01:56 pm
When you get everything together and start riding it, look for signs of overheating.
If there are any it might be due to your wrinkle paint job.
There are flat black paints made for use on BBQ's and wood burning stoves that have almost no insulating qualities so they will work great on cylinder fins.  The heat will pass right thru them.
The wrinkle paint being used is good up to temperatures of 350*F so it should last on a finned cylinder.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to have on a cylinder though.
Just because a paint is called a High Temperature paint does not mean it has low insulating properties.  It means high temperatures won't cause the paint layer to break down.
The ability to allow heat to pass thru the paint layer is not true with many paints and I suspect a paint that wrinkles may in fact be rather poor at heat transfer.
The wrinkles themselves create thicker layers and that can't be good for letting heat pass thru them.
I did look at the available information for VHT Wrinkle Plus but it didn't have any data on heat transfer.
It did give several areas that can get up into the 200*F temperature range like valve covers but it did not include air cooled engine cylinder fins as a suggested place to apply it.
Hopefully it will not cause a problem.  It does look good on the fins.

           Thanks for the headsup, but I'm not too worried about a few degrees of temp change at the fins. My style of riding now is not going to ever stress this engine anywhere near its limits plus past experience tells me that there's usually no problem. The paint that was on the fins was quite heavy already. And black. Just not wrinkled. I removed just about all of it. If I lived in Arizona, rode for hours at a time on freeways at 75 mph or in heavy traffic at 3, weighed 280 pounds I might worry about it.

             I never ride an hour straight at a time now without a get-off. The bike will only see over 55 once in a very blue moon (I HATE the feeling of being beaten to death by the wind now) & the temp in RI is never what you'd call omigod hot. And I avoid traffic with the same diligence that I avoid Starbucks  :)(http://)   ;)http://

              My last oil change I made it a point to ride a full hour. I could still hold my fingers in the draining oil stream. Overheat? I think not. Look what these poor bikes put up with in India without seizing up.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 09, 2014, 03:57:52 pm
The custom big valves(1.8" intake, 1.57" exhaust) on new seats are installed, porting work done, the mods done for installing the beehive valve spring package, the chamber re-shaping has been done, the head skimmed .010" for flat surface, alloy 32mm manifold is installed and flow-matched to the head,and it is on the flow bench now to get the final flow numbers. Then the coatings go in the chamber and exhaust port.
I will probably have the flow numbers early next week. Very slight chance I might get the numbers later tonight if they can finish that today.

Ace Air Canister for TM32 is finished and waiting to be shipped with the head.
Piston needed no valve reliefs cut in for this. If the lift was increased, then we'd have to do it.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: AVL Power! on May 09, 2014, 04:37:09 pm
So it's pretty much looks like that the AVL can take a lot of mods from Ace fireball iron barrel ? I knew there were similarities but it's always fun to read your posts :D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 09, 2014, 04:44:31 pm
So it's pretty much looks like that the AVL can take a lot of mods from Ace fireball iron barrel ? I knew there were similarities but it's always fun to read your posts :D

We try to use the proven parts and techniques wherever we can. We know it works, and so we apply it across the model lines as much as possible.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 09, 2014, 06:00:50 pm
The custom big valves(1.8" intake, 1.57" exhaust) on new seats are installed, porting work done, the mods done for installing the beehive valve spring package, the chamber re-shaping has been done, the head skimmed .010" for flat surface, alloy 32mm manifold is installed and flow-matched to the head,and it is on the flow bench now to get the final flow numbers. Then the coatings go in the chamber and exhaust port.
I will probably have the flow numbers early next week. Very slight chance I might get the numbers later tonight if they can finish that today.

Ace Air Canister for TM32 is finished and waiting to be shipped with the head.
Piston needed no valve reliefs cut in for this. If the lift was increased, then we'd have to do it.

            Excellent news all around on this, yet another, rainy day.

             Put off again yesterday by my friendly local Walmart bike shop* on my throttle cable order from Sudco. I gave them another two weeks. I can't believe it's taking this long to get an order in.

             Don't rush anything. It's still cold here.

             * They handle every bike there is except harley & Royal Enfield  :)(http://) They have hundreds of bikes on the floor & scooters of every color & ATVs & Ruckuses & Farm ATVs & on & on. And BMW & KTM Around The World bikes.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 16, 2014, 11:08:21 pm
Update:

Tooseevee's head is done!

I have the flow bench sheet and the bill.
I have not picked up the head yet, so I don't have pics. I will take some pics and post them when I pick up the head next week.

Basic info is that it flows about like  Fireball Iron Barrel flows, but the lift is not quite as high , so it flows a little bit less at the stock AVL lift. But, it's pretty close, even without the taller cams!
Picked up about 30 cfm on the intake, even without any lift increase.

Also the chamber was mildly re-shaped for better flow around the bigger valves, some squish area moved around, and chamber volume reduced for a bit of a compression increase, and the deck slightly surface milled to clean it all up nice and flat.

Of course, all our Ace proprietary valve gear has been installed, including the beehive springs and titanium retainers, etc.
Thermal barrier coatings in chamber, on valve faces, and exhaust port too.

There were a couple of surprise charges on the invoice which pushed the cost up over the expected price, but I  am going to absorb some of it so that it stays close to the estimate. They hit me with a couple hundred dollar custom fixture charge to make a machining fixture to mount this odd shaped head on to the machines.. I will swallow that fee because I can use that again if I get any other AVL jobs in.
The custom valves were a LOT more expensive than usual, and they said that they had to source them from a different custom shop because of the odd size. Nobody else would do them. So, any prospective AVL owners looking at this mod need to be aware that the valves cost a lot, and the job will be a little more costly than the usual Iron Barrel Fireball jobs because of this and the chamber mods we have to do on this closed chamber in the AVL.

All in all, I'm happy with the results, and I think it's pretty damn good to get this much more flow at the standard factory lift height. It should have some nice punch, and I think it will have some pretty good top end too, even if Tooseevee doesn't  use the top speed ability. It's there.
And I am dying to see this go thru the previous "AVL rpm limit" of 5800 rpm, just to prove that we have solved that valve bounce issue.
The "s" cams should do nicely with this head.

Flow numbers will be posted as soon as I get home.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 17, 2014, 01:03:23 am
Here's the flow test sheet for Tooseevee's head in the attachment below(pdf).
They called it the "Big Head" because it looks similar to the old Big Head, and so they started calling it the "new Big Head". So, that's why the file name is like that.

The columns labeled "1" for intake and exhaust, are the "before" flow test, and the columns labeled "2" for intake and exhaust, are the "after" flow test.

Note how the exhaust port is no longer backing up at lifts over .350", and the port is much more stable.
Also note how we now achieve more intake flow at .350" lift, than the OEM port flowed at .600" lift(if it could have ever gotten there!) But if we put our roller rockers in there, it could take advantage of all the increased flow up to 213 cfm @ .600" lift with the same porting that we put in it for this job.
In the AVL, the stock rockers are approximately 1.1:1 ratio, so the approximate max lift will be around .330". So, you can ballpark the flow level to be between the .300" and .350" rows on the chart.

This job was done to get the power improved in the normal rev-range, and so we estimate probably 6000 peak hp rpm, similar to the Fireball. It will rev above that, though, if he wants to, but it will just hold roughly the same peak power for a hundred rpm over the peak hp rpm, if necessary.
There will be a nice increase in the midrange torque, where most people are interested in riding.

Now, this is our response to what Tooseevee asked for, and we feel that this is a good package for the "AVL Fireball" type of head work. It fits the same niche as the Iron Barrel Fireball does.
However, if people want less or more, or even a lot more for racing or something, we can respond to those needs also. We can put the roller rockers into this head too.
So, we can meet almost any request for power upgrades on the AVL now.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 17, 2014, 03:24:20 pm
Update:
Tooseevee's head is done!
I have the flow bench sheet and the bill.
I have not picked up the head yet, so I don't have pics. I will take some pics and post them when I pick up the head next week.


            Well, what good news for a Saturday morning!  Grin, grin, smile, smile  ;)

             I'll have to read this over & over a couple times to get it all, but it all sounds really, really good to me. Sounds like you've gotten me just what I wanted; a really, really good (better) running, torquey, mid-range, old fart monster who might go 75 mph once in a while just to see what it feels like, but is mostly in 2nd, 3rd & 4th gears.

              Now all you need to do is send me the bill offline so I can get to work on the 2nd mortgage  ;)(http://) Luckily my house is paid for & I still manage to scrape the taxes together every quarter.

               Thank you a big bunch, Tom, and thank all the other guys at Mondello's for me. I hope I've maybe helped some other guys with AVLs (the last engine with the true vintage look) to do some mods they might be on the fence about. And aren't we lucky that my engine still had less than a 1,000 miles on it?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 17, 2014, 03:34:13 pm
Here's the flow test sheet for Tooseevee's head in the attachment below(pdf).
They called it the "Big Head" because it looks similar to the old Big Head, and so they started calling it the "new Big Head". So, that's why the file name is like that.

The columns labeled "1" for intake and exhaust, are the "before" flow test, and the columns labeled "2" for intake and exhaust, are the "after" flow test.

Note how the exhaust port is no longer backing up at lifts over .350", and the port is much more stable.
Also note how we now achieve more intake flow at .350" lift, than the OEM port flowed at .600" lift(if it could have ever gotten there!) But if we put our roller rockers in there, it could take advantage of all the increased flow up to 213 cfm @ .600" lift with the same porting that we put in it for this job.
In the AVL, the stock rockers are approximately 1.1:1 ratio, so the approximate max lift will be around .330". So, you can ballpark the flow level to be between the .300" and .350" rows on the chart.

This job was done to get the power improved in the normal rev-range, and so we estimate probably 6000 peak hp rpm, similar to the Fireball. It will rev above that, though, if he wants to, but it will just hold roughly the same peak power for a hundred rpm over the peak hp rpm, if necessary.
There will be a nice increase in the midrange torque, where most people are interested in riding.

Now, this is our response to what Tooseevee asked for, and we feel that this is a good package for the "AVL Fireball" type of head work. It fits the same niche as the Iron Barrel Fireball does.
However, if people want less or more, or even a lot more for racing or something, we can respond to those needs also. We can put the roller rockers into this head too.
So, we can meet almost any request for power upgrades on the AVL now.

            All VERy interesting. I'll print both your posts & the chart out & try to digest it all.

            Just out of curiosity, what would approx mph be at 6,000 in 5th gear?

            In fact, what would it be at 5,000 in 5th?

            I've wanted one of those tiny electronic tachs since I got this bike. Maybe now....
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on May 17, 2014, 03:48:42 pm
Quote
Thank you a big bunch, Tom, and thank all the other guys at Mondello's for me. I hope I've maybe helped some other guys with AVLs (the last engine with the true vintage look) to do some mods they might be on the fence about

Thanks 2CV for cutting the curve!  Im certainly going to be following in your shoes.  The S Cams, TM32 and then an Ace AVL head looks to be the 'biz'!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 17, 2014, 04:01:22 pm
With an 18 tooth sprocket, 6000 rpm in 5th would be a mph or two over The Ton.
5000 rpm in 5th with an 18T would be about 85 mph.
This could vary a bit, depending on tire diameter.

I don't know if you have cored-out that "hot tube" restrictor out of the tail end of your header pipe yet, or if you have an aftermarket exhaust, but now would be the time for that if you have not already done so.

For those not wanting higher lift, the "S Cams" should give enough duration for the top speed work. I am not sure if the stock AVL cams have enough duration for the Ton, or not. I guess we'll see soon!

This finally gives the AVL owners some professional performance options which have been long awaited. With some serious ratio roller rockers and the duration of the "S Cams", and our porting and chamber work, these AVL engines could really put out some heavy duty power. I suspect over 40 hp at the rear wheel would be achievable with a hot street build on our roller rocker AVL head.

Please bear in mind that we can adjust any/all of the modifications to suit various power and rpm applications, and that this version for Tooseevee is just one of many possible variations. But, this is a good one for street use that many owners might select, sort of like the Fireball.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on May 17, 2014, 08:28:25 pm
This is all very interesting and I have it on good authority that the AVL 500 was originally designed for 40 bhp plus potential, but changes made from drawing board to production line spelled the end of that theory.
 These engines offer many improvements over the 'Iron' types, as well as some last minute corner cutting, more's the pity.
 For what it's worth, the machine I tuned ran on an 18" rear wheel and 19t gearbox sprocket and achieved 103 mph @ 6200 rpm, the engine being able to exceed 7000 rpm [just], but no real point going there.
 We had 33.34 bhp @ 6000 rpm, so I am sure the Ace mods for tooseevee's machine might see 40 bhp. Those engines were so close, without ever getting the cigar, but it's all in there somewhere.
 As for the 'S' cams, I can only claim to have 'rediscovered' them, but 20 sets have gone to date, most for AVL 500's, but a few for 'Iron' engines, where improvements have also been noted.
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 17, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
I appreciate the compliments, but I am not expecting this particular set of mods on this head to do 40hp on the stock cams.
However, I think it would be possible with some roller rockers with a good amount of lift, and some longer duration cams for making more power at higher revs.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on May 17, 2014, 09:41:05 pm
I appreciate the compliments, but I am not expecting this particular set of mods on this head to do 40hp on the stock cams.
However, I think it would be possible with some roller rockers with a good amount of lift, and some longer duration cams for making more power at higher revs.
Sorry Ace, I can see on re-reading my last post that I worded it badly. I wasn't trying to over estimate the potential of this particular build, more suggesting that 40 bhp could probably be achieved with the various upgrades now available, as  when I hit that 33.34 bhp, none of your tuning mods were available at that time  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 17, 2014, 10:11:55 pm
Sorry Ace, I can see on re-reading my last post that I worded it badly. I wasn't trying to over estimate the potential of this particular build, more suggesting that 40 bhp could probably be achieved with the various upgrades now available, as  when I hit that 33.34 bhp, none of your tuning mods were available at that time  ;)
 B.W.
Thanks B.W.!

I agree that the AVL platform has potential of that level or more, if it was modded with what we can do now.

The AVL guys have been waiting a long time. Maybe we should do a collaboration on an AVL for somebody?!


Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2014, 08:07:10 pm
Pics!

#!) Ace proprietary valve spring stack, with beehive spring, titanium retainer, stem seals, big valves. Same as the Fireball, but  very slightly smaller valves.

#2) Shown top view with rocker in place, and also shows Ace 32mm alloy intake manifold.

#3) View of matching manifold and spring stack, rockers out.

#4) View of intake port with flow-matched manifold attached.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2014, 08:14:43 pm
Now, notice the difference that was done to the AVL combustion chamber.

Pic #1 is the stock AVL chamber

Pic #2 is the Ace Chamber

Note that the Ace chamber is completely different shape for improved flow, has bigger valves, is more compact for higher compression, has more squish area for improved mixture motion, and is coated with the CerMet Thermal Barrier coating.

Yes, there is a little scar on the metal near that one edge of the chamber, but that whole thing was all welded-up, and re-shaped by hand, and then surface milled for flatness. The little scar will not be any problem. Didn't want to mill the head down any further than that.

That was a huge amount of work, and a will be a great improvement to the power of the bike. This is a major step forward on the AVL.
There might need to be a little retarding adjustment on the ignition timing, but we'll see how it does first, and adjust if needed.
9.8:1 compression ratio on this.

This can also be done to the UCE, because the UCE chamber is the same as the AVL.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 23, 2014, 10:30:29 pm
Tom - I've noticed that you tend to add metal to the combustion chamber between the valves.  Is this to increase compression or to help with quench?

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2014, 10:48:39 pm
Tom - I've noticed that you tend to add metal to the combustion chamber between the valves.  Is this to increase compression or to help with quench?

Scottie J

It is mostly to support the flow past the valve. Sometimes called Pressure Recovery. But it also reduces chamber volume for increased compression.
It mostly works on the narrower valve angles, and the non-hemi chambers. For us with the wide valve angle hemi chambers, it isn't needed. The Big Head, AVL, and UCE all have 26 degree valve angles, but the old Bullet and your heads are 40 degree valve angles hemi.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: boggy on May 23, 2014, 11:18:23 pm
The AVL guys have been waiting a long time. Maybe we should do a collaboration on an AVL for somebody?!

And I just have this AVL lying around without clutch plates while I cheat on it with a Supermoto.  You know, when I was planning my move I almost thought about shipping the Bullet to you for just this thing.  I had to pay to get it across the whole country anyways.  Figures a RI guy would beat me to it.  ;)

I'm watching this thread closely.  I'd love to have my AVL reach the potential you are talking about.  I'm never going to sell it so it's got to happen at some point.  It's awesome to see the pictures and keep up with the progress.

Boggy 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 23, 2014, 11:33:57 pm
And I just have this AVL lying around without clutch plates while I cheat on it with a Supermoto.  You know, when I was planning my move I almost thought about shipping the Bullet to you for just this thing.  I had to pay to get it across the whole country anyways.  Figures a RI guy would beat me to it.  ;)

I'm watching this thread closely.  I'd love to have my AVL reach the potential you are talking about.  I'm never going to sell it so it's got to happen at some point.  It's awesome to see the pictures and keep up with the progress.

Boggy

If you added the high ratio roller rockers and a high compression piston to this package, you would be stunned at the performance level of it.
It will be real nice as it is now, but with some big lift, it would be a monster!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on May 23, 2014, 11:43:50 pm
Nice job, Tom, I could have used some of this seven years ago!  Glad to see my old pictures of the stock head came in useful, but did you notice the poor quality of the milled finish on that stock cylinder head joint face?

Fireball(ish) performance levels beckon for Tooseevee - or would they be exceeded? I was thinking about a Big Head model of some sort for another possible project, this might change everything...

Boggy, you might like to wait and see how Tooseevee gets on, but I do love the idea of a 500 AVL that can really do the business. Hmm...

Regards,

A.




Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: boggy on May 23, 2014, 11:55:46 pm
it would be a monster!
but I do love the idea of a 500 AVL that can really do the business. Hmm...

Big-head AVL monster?  Heck ya... Sign me up!  Really excited to see how tooseevee's comes together.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 24, 2014, 12:02:20 am
Nice job, Tom, I could have used some of this seven years ago!  Glad to see my old pictures of the stock head came in useful, but did you notice the poor quality of the milled finish on that stock cylinder head joint face?

Fireball(ish) performance levels beckon for Tooseevee - or would they be exceeded? I was thinking about a Big Head model of some sort for another possible project, this might change everything...

Boggy, you might like to wait and see how Tooseevee gets on, but I do love the idea of a 500 AVL that can really do the business. Hmm...

Regards,

A.
Hi Adrian,
Thanks for that photo! I knew it would be useful one day. Regarding the stock surfacing job, I hardly even pay attention to the stock condition anymore. I have come to expect it to be horrid, and just move on with the mods, and fix everything as we go.

It will need some more lift to meet or exceed Fireball level. The stock lift just isn't enough. But I think it will be close in the midrange, where Tooseevee wanted the improvement. It should have very good response, and strong pull when rolling on the throttle for passing. I'm sure it will fill the aims he had for it.

Each pwrson can have us do what the want for their  individual needs. That's what is nice about custom services.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 24, 2014, 12:09:09 am
Big-head AVL monster?  Heck ya... Sign me up!  Really excited to see how tooseevee's comes together.
Boggy,
For most intents and purposes, the AVL head is a modern version of the Big Head. We can do most of the same things to it, and our same roller rockets from the our Big Head package will work in the AVL head. We can make it a powerhouse. This was not really possible before we pioneered these roller rocker systems, but now the floodgates are wide open for power production on all these heads. We have the key, and we know what to do with it.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 12:09:21 am


I don't know if you have cored-out that "hot tube" restrictor out of the tail end of your header pipe yet, or if you have an aftermarket exhaust, but now would be the time for that if you have not already done so.

               Yes. I removed the whole tube over a year ago. And it has a totally empty '60s or 70's type bottle "silencer". & I have 4", 8" & 12" exhaust tip type baffles to play with if I need to. And I could also play with a lollipop.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: boggy on May 24, 2014, 12:22:53 am
#4) View of intake port with flow-matched manifold attached.

Ace, I went back in this thread to see if I missed it - Does this manifold allow for a better fit with most headers?  When I got my Goldstar header, the diameter was smaller than the exhaust port.  Is that the primary function of that manifold, or does have more to do with the flow than the fit?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 24, 2014, 12:25:44 am
The manifold is for the intake mounting og a TM32 or TM34.
The exhaust mounting method is unchanged.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: boggy on May 24, 2014, 12:30:08 am
Even quoting you saying it's the intake port, I was still thinking I was looking at the exhaust port.  It's Friday... right?   ::)  Time to back away from the computer.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 12:33:34 am
     Thanks a lot, Ace, for the pictures & for everything & for being a pleasure to deal with.

      Thanks for all the comments from all you guys also. This thread will get longer as the dialing in goes on, I'm sure. Maybe I'll be lucky & the jetting & needle I've put in per recommendations will be good from the getgo. Nah. That'll never happen.

        I may have to beg for help on the throttle cable at some point. My local bike shop has still not gotten it in from SUDCO. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 24, 2014, 12:36:41 am

........I may have to beg for help on the throttle cable at some point. My local bike shop has still not gotten it in from SUDCO.

FWIW  I tried to order this cable from my Jap bike parts supplier earlier in the week and they couldn't even order it.  Not sure why, but perhaps your shop is having a similar problem.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 01:10:41 pm
FWIW  I tried to order this cable from my Jap bike parts supplier earlier in the week and they couldn't even order it.  Not sure why, but perhaps your shop is having a similar problem.

Scottie J

           When I call SUDCO I am told that I can't order a part as an individual private person. I have to deal with my dealer  ;)

            What I'm being told by my dealer is that it's the $$ value of the order that is the controlling factor. They must have a minimum $$ figure or they can't do the order & they haven't reached that $$ figure yet because most of the time involved has been off-season hence few orders.

             I'll call the shop again today. If it's not there yet I'm going to call SUDCO again & grovel & beg & otherwise humiliate myself to any extent necessary to get them to feel sorry for me & let me order it as an individual  :D(http://)   :D(http://)

              I can see already that you can't do everything with this TM 32 without dismounting it from the engine like you can with the BS 29.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on May 24, 2014, 01:19:55 pm
Any use?

http://www.venhillusa.com/catalog/universal-cable-kits.html

 ;D

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on May 24, 2014, 01:40:08 pm
          I'll call the shop again today. If it's not there yet I'm going to call SUDCO again & grovel & beg & otherwise humiliate myself to any extent necessary to get them to feel sorry for me & let me order it as an individual  :D   :D(http://)
 

I had the same problem.  I just ordered an Iron Barrel cable.  It doesnt have the adjuster on the cable but the carb has plenty. With that said, i needed to trim the cable housing about 1 inch.  On my Electra the cable housing is around 37.5 inches (if i recall correctly). 

 
             I can see already that you can't do everything with this TM 32 without dismounting it from the engine like you can with the BS 29.

I've been pulling the tank, and leaving the carb on.  Its the spring that's hard to wrestle with on the bike...
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ERC on May 24, 2014, 01:52:08 pm
Motion Pro sells a lot of Sudco try them.   ERC
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 03:28:52 pm
Motion Pro sells a lot of Sudco try them.   ERC

            Yes. That's the brand name of the cable you get from SUDCO. I'll try calling Motion Pro directly & see what they say.

             OK. I tried. They're open Monday through Friday only.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 24, 2014, 03:51:32 pm
Sudco and Motion Pro are sister companies, Sudco is the Manufacture and Motion Pro is the name the cables are sold under.  If it's a matter of not having a big enough order from the dealer, you should try contacting an actual parts supplier that deals in higher volume of parts and places orders every single week.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ERC on May 24, 2014, 04:22:52 pm
I think you can order directly from Motion on their web site.  ERC
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 06:51:59 pm

I had the same problem.  I just ordered an Iron Barrel cable. 


              From who....?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 06:57:44 pm
I think you can order directly from Motion on their web site.  ERC

             Yes, you can, but I need a part number. The SUDCO part number (021-947) means nothing to the Motion Pro website search. Every other type of search I could think up got me nothing. I have to talk to an actual person who can relate that SUDCO part number to a Motion Pro part number.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ERC on May 24, 2014, 09:26:34 pm
How cute it's a wonder they sell anything.  ERC
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on May 24, 2014, 11:01:32 pm
              From who....?

Try ebay, loads on there if nfield gear doesn't have any.

Tom,

something I just remembered:


There might need to be a little retarding adjustment on the ignition timing, but we'll see how it does first, and adjust if needed.
9.8:1 compression ratio on this.


Sadly for most of us AVL owners this can be a little tricky. As the ignition is crank triggered and non-adjustable you'd need to play with some of Hitchcock's offset alternator rotor keys, though you MIGHT get away with elongating the trigger's mounting holes with a small round file. But then again it might actually run better with the ignition "over" advanced. Some of the guys on the British Bulleteers' forum have been successfully running 37 degree BTDC full advance on tuned iron barrel models with the classic hemi head. Given that the AVL head is a more modern design, and you have improved this one still further, I would be surprised if the stock ignition did need retarding. My AVL hybrid's magneto is set to about 35 degrees BTDC fully advanced.

Regards,

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 24, 2014, 11:18:37 pm

Try ebay, loads on there if nfield gear doesn't have any.


You clearly haven't checked Ebay or Amazon.  The part number doesn't exist in the retail world apparently.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 24, 2014, 11:58:34 pm
You clearly haven't checked Ebay or Amazon.  The part number doesn't exist in the retail world apparently.

                 It's a SUDCO part number.
                 
                  There are 8,362 part numbers in the SUDCO catalog; all in the xxx.xxx format.

                  Motion Pro part numbers are in a completely different format.

                   
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 25, 2014, 12:19:25 am

Sadly for most of us AVL owners this can be a little tricky. As the ignition is crank triggered and non-adjustable you'd need to play with some of Hitchcock's offset alternator rotor keys, though you MIGHT get away with elongating the trigger's mounting holes with a small round file. But then again it might actually run better with the ignition "over" advanced. Some of the guys on the British Bulleteers' forum have been successfully running 37 degree BTDC full advance on tuned iron barrel models with the classic hemi head. Given that the AVL head is a more modern design, and you have improved this one still further, I would be surprised if the stock ignition did need retarding. My AVL hybrid's magneto is set to about 35 degrees BTDC fully advanced.

Regards,

A.

            I'm hoping & praying that I do NOT have to f**k with the electronic ignition's timing on this little bitch. I can set the gap & timing statically at full advance in about 10 minutes on my points harley & be on the road, all I need is a test light & you can make one of those out of a flashlight or a taillight bulb, but the AVL is a horse of a different color.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 25, 2014, 12:20:42 am
                 It's a SUDCO part number.
                 
                  There are 8,362 part numbers in the SUDCO catalog; all in the xxx.xxx format.

                  Motion Pro part numbers are in a completely different format.

                 

Exactly.  I know the trouble you're having because I've been trying all week to get this exact same cable.  It's kind of a PITA to try and track down.  And I can't for the life of me find any kind of cross reference ANYWHERE.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 25, 2014, 02:34:01 am
Try ebay, loads on there if nfield gear doesn't have any.

Tom,

something I just remembered:

Sadly for most of us AVL owners this can be a little tricky. As the ignition is crank triggered and non-adjustable you'd need to play with some of Hitchcock's offset alternator rotor keys, though you MIGHT get away with elongating the trigger's mounting holes with a small round file. But then again it might actually run better with the ignition "over" advanced. Some of the guys on the British Bulleteers' forum have been successfully running 37 degree BTDC full advance on tuned iron barrel models with the classic hemi head. Given that the AVL head is a more modern design, and you have improved this one still further, I would be surprised if the stock ignition did need retarding. My AVL hybrid's magneto is set to about 35 degrees BTDC fully advanced.

Regards,

A.
Well, we'll just have to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: gashousegorilla on May 25, 2014, 04:25:19 pm
Now, notice the difference that was done to the AVL combustion chamber.

Pic #1 is the stock AVL chamber

Pic #2 is the Ace Chamber

Note that the Ace chamber is completely different shape for improved flow, has bigger valves, is more compact for higher compression, has more squish area for improved mixture motion, and is coated with the CerMet Thermal Barrier coating.

Yes, there is a little scar on the metal near that one edge of the chamber, but that whole thing was all welded-up, and re-shaped by hand, and then surface milled for flatness. The little scar will not be any problem. Didn't want to mill the head down any further than that.

That was a huge amount of work, and a will be a great improvement to the power of the bike. This is a major step forward on the AVL.
There might need to be a little retarding adjustment on the ignition timing, but we'll see how it does first, and adjust if needed.
9.8:1 compression ratio on this.

This can also be done to the UCE, because the UCE chamber is the same as the AVL.

  Very nice work Ace !  And yes it can be done to the UCE chamber. And it will work well too... Mine is not quite the same , but very close.  They did a nice job on that chamber..... that is skilled work,very nice stuff.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 25, 2014, 04:51:06 pm
Thanks, GHG!

Here are those pics again, in case anyone didn't catch them(and the other pics) on Page 9

Stock Chamber
(https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1715034454/name/DSCN3076.jpg)

Ace Chamber
(https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1359766817/name/20140523_135648_resized_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 25, 2014, 11:31:29 pm
In case anyone is wondering why we would want to change the shape of the combustion chamber, have a look at the shape of this winning 1500hp Pro-Stock chamber.

(http://www.darinmorgan.com/images/Seats/seats10.JPG)

Our chamber is not shiny because we have the Thermal Barrier coating applied on it.
The shape is very similar, and the variations are due to the fact that our head has a different port bias angle, so the flow pattern is different.
The aim is to burn the mixture as rapidly and completely as possible, so that the most power can be extracted from the fuel. It's great to get a lot of fuel/air in there, but that's only half the battle. Then we have to completely and efficiently burn it to make power. That's where the combustion chamber work pays off. You can't measure this on anything like a flow bench. This just comes from experience of knowing what works.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on May 25, 2014, 11:44:20 pm
Glad to see the improved head still has room for a second spark plug (or decompressor valve  :-X ) !
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 25, 2014, 11:52:20 pm
In case anyone is wondering why we would want to change the shape of the combustion chamber, have a look at the shape of this winning 1500hp Pro-Stock chamber.

(http://www.darinmorgan.com/images/Seats/seats10.JPG)



8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: gashousegorilla on May 26, 2014, 01:40:05 am
Thanks, GHG!

Here are those pics again, in case anyone didn't catch them(and the other pics) on Page 9

Stock Chamber
(https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1715034454/name/DSCN3076.jpg)

Ace Chamber
(https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/48433456/sn/1359766817/name/20140523_135648_resized_1.jpg)

   Yes very..... Hot rod 454 small block-ish.  And I would imagine a shop like Mondello's would be well versed in that motor.  Hell.... probably the most tuned on motor going, and they make some stunning power.  Mine is not quite as "open", for a bit more compression and ridged right up to the valve pretty much.... polished to help reflect the heat and cut down on carbon build up.  But honestly, you don't get much carbon build up from an efficient burning chamber like that.  That will efficiently swirl the mix and center the burn over the center of the piston crown, and helps give it more shove over tdc . If you pull that head after you put some miles on the bike and look at the piston crown, You can see where all the "work" is getting done.... It "works" well on a flat top AVL or a dished UCE.  Just like it would in a Small block Chevy....I'm a believer in the flat tops. And NO need for a second plug on that !..   TCV will pick up a few ponies for sure.  8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: 1 Thump on May 26, 2014, 01:54:44 am
2CV: I hope this motor sees them S cams.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: dginfw on May 26, 2014, 03:43:18 am
I know the AVL motors have improvements over the iron barrel, but how much work had to be done to the bottom end on his motor?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 26, 2014, 03:53:47 am
I know the AVL motors have improvements over the iron barrel, but how much work had to be done to the bottom end on his motor?

None, so far.
The AVL has a steel con rod and a roller bearing, and higher volume oil pumps.
They aren't the world's greatest ones, but it gives more leeway than the Iron Barrel, which needs a whole new bottom end right off the bat.
The AVL has some other problems that the Iron Barrel doesn't have, so it's not all roses here either.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on May 26, 2014, 01:34:32 pm
2CV: I hope this motor sees them S cams.
Thanks B.W.!

I agree that the AVL platform has potential of that level or more, if it was modded with what we can do now.

The AVL guys have been waiting a long time. Maybe we should do a collaboration on an AVL for somebody?!
I am happy to share anything I might be able to help with on this or other projects. The last of the latest batch of 'S' cams went last week, making 20 sets so far - some of these went in 'Iron' engines, but the majority went into AVL engines. All feedback to date has been positive.
 That headwork looks very impressive, Ace  8) 8).
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 26, 2014, 02:43:02 pm
I am happy to share anything I might be able to help with on this or other projects. The last of the latest batch of 'S' cams went last week, making 20 sets so far - some of these went in 'Iron' engines, but the majority went into AVL engines. All feedback to date has been positive.
 That headwork looks very impressive, Ace  8) 8).
 B.W.

Thanks, B.W.

Now, all we need is a guy with an AVL, and desire for more power!
The "Dynamic Duo" awaits!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on May 26, 2014, 10:19:41 pm
I may have to sell a kidney... :(

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on May 26, 2014, 10:25:35 pm
I may have to sell a kidney... :(

A.
Well I hope that doesn't mean I am going to be needing one  ;D
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 28, 2014, 09:45:26 pm
Tooseevee,
There is a medium sized box coming your way by Priority Mail.
Everything is in it.
A good rinse with mineral spirits,  blow dry, and a pre-lube of all the moving parts would be the first step.
We will talk.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 29, 2014, 07:08:32 pm
Tooseevee,
There is a medium sized box coming your way by Priority Mail.
Everything is in it.
A good rinse with mineral spirits,  blow dry, and a pre-lube of all the moving parts would be the first step.
We will talk.

              Awright   :)   :) I'll be waiting for it with "baited" breath.

               And............. Drum Roll:

                 The cable was put in the mail yesterday from SUDCO direct to my driveway  ;D(http://) I got to a guy who got to a guy who gave me a guy's Ext.. By then I guess my story was all over SUDCO & Motion Pro. I can't actually verify yet that the carb end is correct. We shall see. I'll post some pictures of both when it gets here.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 29, 2014, 07:40:44 pm
It should fit. That"s the cable we use for the TM32 carbs for the Fireball. It's the same cable that comes in the CMW 34mm carb kit.

I can tell you that the slide spring is a bitch to hold back when you are installing the cable into the slide. It's like a 3 handed operation. If you can get some help from somebody to hold that spring while you hook the cable into the slide, it is a bit easiwr.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on May 29, 2014, 08:44:50 pm
Quote
I can tell you that the slide spring is a bitch to hold back when you are installing the cable into the slide. It's like a 3 handed operation. If you can get some help from somebody to hold that spring while you hook the cable into the slide, it is a bit easiwr.

I use 2 zip ties as an extra hand. Insert one, compress spring - not too tightly, then insert 2nd. Keep the lock of the tie on the outside, otherwise you'll never get all the pieces thru the spring and back between the slide and the carb top housing.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 29, 2014, 09:11:20 pm

I can tell you that the slide spring is a bitch to hold back when you are installing the cable into the slide. It's like a 3 handed operation. If you can get some help from somebody to hold that spring while you hook the cable into the slide, it is a bit easiwr.

I carefully grab the cable with a pair of needle nose pliers and slide them up the cable to compress the spring and to hold it out of the way.  It takes a bit but once you get the right position you can use the needle nose pliers to guide the cable end into the small hole on the slide.  An extra hand definitely always helps tho.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 29, 2014, 10:00:57 pm
I carefully grab the cable with a pair of needle nose pliers and slide them up the cable to compress the spring and to hold it out of the way.  It takes a bit but once you get the right position you can use the needle nose pliers to guide the cable end into the small hole on the slide.  An extra hand definitely always helps tho.

Scottie J

            Not so simple a job as on the BS-29, I gather from you, Ace & DanB. I hope I don't have to change needles &/or groove clip position too many times. My hands no longer do what I order them to do. Maybe I'll be lucky. But why should THAT happen ?    :) ;)(http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 29, 2014, 11:17:45 pm
            Not so simple a job as on the BS-29, I gather from you, Ace & DanB. I hope I don't have to change needles &/or groove clip position too many times. My hands no longer do what I order them to do. Maybe I'll be lucky. But why should THAT happen ?    :) ;)(http://)

I actually have an Amal concentric at the moment, but the slides are set up the same.  Once you have the cable inserted correctly in the slide, needle changes aren't too bad.  You just push up and compress the spring and you can work the needle in and out without too much trouble.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on May 30, 2014, 02:11:41 am
Adrian was very nice to create a side-by-side composite picture of the stock AVL chamber vs the new ACE chamber.

I am attaching it below for your viewing pleasure.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2014, 04:39:48 pm
I actually have an Amal concentric at the moment, but the slides are set up the same.  Once you have the cable inserted correctly in the slide, needle changes aren't too bad.  You just push up and compress the spring and you can work the needle in and out without too much trouble.

Scottie J

            No, you can't on the TM 32. To get the needle out you HAVE TO remove the little part that holds the cable end to the slide. You can't get the two tiny screws loose with the cable attached & the spring & the cap. At least I can't see now how you'd do it.

             I'm going to try hooking the carburetor end up first & THEN attaching the throttle grip end. It will give me more cable length to play with. Has anyone tried this?

             Probably won't work  :( >:((http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2014, 04:53:49 pm
Tooseevee,
There is a medium sized box coming your way by Priority Mail.
Everything is in it.
A good rinse with mineral spirits,  blow dry, and a pre-lube of all the moving parts would be the first step.
We will talk.

            The new ACE AVL head arrived late yesterday afternoon. I could not face the computer last night. I am very happy & very impressed with the work that I can see was done. The chamber is totally reshaped & the valves are "huge". The work inside the ports is beautiful.

             The ACE canister was also there. Goes without saying that it's just the best.

              Also on the same truck Friday afternoon was the correct throttle cable (ordered Tuesday) & yes, it fits. It appears the throttle grip end ball might have to be Dremeled a TINY bit. It's a hair wider than the stock one on the bike. The carb end is perfect.

               Don't look for a running bike tomorrow (OR the next day) guys. I work very slowly. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on May 31, 2014, 04:54:48 pm
            No, you can't on the TM 32. To get the needle out you HAVE TO remove the little part that holds the cable end to the slide. You can't get the two tiny screws loose with the cable attached & the spring & the cap. At least I can't see now how you'd do it.


OK, maybe the TM32 is a different design than I was thinking.



             I'm going to try hooking the carburetor end up first & THEN attaching the throttle grip end. It will give me more cable length to play with. Has anyone tried this?

             Probably won't work  :( >:((http://)

I've done this before trying to lubricate the cable without getting into the carb.  It's a small PITA to get it back together but it's doable.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2014, 06:21:57 pm
OK, maybe the TM32 is a different design than I was thinking.


I've done this before trying to lubricate the cable without getting into the carb.  It's a small PITA to get it back together but it's doable.

Scottie J

            I blew my load this morning carrying stuff up & down & cleaning up all the little messes I left in the garage from last week. So now I can start all over.

             The last thing I did before I came up was scope out the throttle end of that new cable. Yes. I DO have to Dremel the ball. It will not fit as is through the hole it has to go through in the throttle grip housing. Once that's done then I'll have to futz it into the hole & width of the rotating
part of the throttle. That'll be much later this afternoon.

              It's all part of the tangled web we weave when first we practice to modify what the factory & the Feds thought we wanted.

               The wrist pin's in the freezer   :) ;)(http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: azcatfan on May 31, 2014, 06:23:59 pm
Go ahead and get two cables and mod them now so you'll have a spare...
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2014, 09:03:29 pm
Go ahead and get two cables and mod them now so you'll have a spare...

           That's azzackly what I'm gonna do.

            I Dremeled the throttle end barrel earlier to fit through the hole & to fit the rotating channel of the interior part. You've got to be careful in your grinding such that the cable remains in the center of the channel. It only took 15 minutes. The carb end ball is perfect.

             Then I worked on connecting the cable up to the slide. I can't imagine doing it on the engine, but it went pretty well after some pain, a couple of misfires & staring at it long enough with my face all screwed up. Just finished a few minutes ago. I have 3 1/2" of free cable at the throttle end which should be plenty to hook that end up with the carb already hooked up on the other end. That's for tomorrow. My hands have had it.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on May 31, 2014, 09:34:50 pm
Quote
             I'm going to try hooking the carburetor end up first & THEN attaching the throttle grip end. It will give me more cable length to play with. Has anyone tried this?

That's exactly how I did it. Much easier that way.

Can't wait to see your results!  Of course, if you'd like to compare I'd be happy to swap heads! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on May 31, 2014, 11:53:44 pm
That's exactly how I did it. Much easier that way.

Can't wait to see your results!  Of course, if you'd like to compare I'd be happy to swap heads! ;D ;D

               Yeah. From my cold, dead hands   ;D(http://)

                Hey. Maybe you can buy the whole thing in a few years when all this foolishness has to stop. It can't go to just anybody. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: REpozer on June 01, 2014, 12:44:29 am
Hey!
Quit messin around and get that Fireball head installed .
 :)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 01, 2014, 04:49:56 am
Hey!
Quit messin around and get that Fireball head installed .
 :)

Hey give the man a break!  He doesn't move as fast as some of us younger fellows.  ;)

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 01, 2014, 04:57:45 am
Quote
Hey. Maybe you can buy the whole thing in a few years when all this foolishness has to stop. It can't go to just anybody.

 ;) Just say the word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 01, 2014, 01:30:15 pm
I'd say he's moving pretty quickly.
He's the first one to get this level of mods on an AVL head!
In my mind, that makes him a leader!
 8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 03, 2014, 02:13:09 pm
The re-assembly is commencing!
 8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 04, 2014, 06:21:20 pm
          Just a heads up for anyone considering the English made shrouded push rod adjusters for the AVL that are said to prevent the standard adjuster from jumping off the lifter (which I'm sure they do).

           They are a son of a bitch to install. These adjusters (because of the shroud) make the overall length too long (at their shortest) to install without lifting the head to make the distance between the rocker & the lifter longer. Which is what I did (because my nuts weren't on yet). Then I removed my shims, let the head settle on the push rods & the head lowered itself as I adjusted the push rods to the correct length. I needed 3 more hands, but slowlee, slowlee, catchee monkee.

         The only other way I see you could do it (with two more hands) would be to pry up on the rocker in some fashion (opening the valve) & slipping the push rod over the lifter & then into its socket on the rocker. No way could I do this alone.

          Things go well, but it's very difficult & I'm on a different schedule than you healthy, uncrippled bastards  ;)   :)(http://) ;D(http://) so don't give me any shit, please.

            Later today when I can move again I'll torque the head to 15, adjust the valves & crank it over veeery slowly & pray I feel no resistance for two full rotations. Then remove the head & read the tale of the clay. And if all that goes well, put it all back together again.

             I'm considering going back to the stock adjusters for the 2nd assembly. There's no drama with them at all; zip zip & done. Very simple.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 04, 2014, 07:25:49 pm
Very good, George!

We will not give you any shit.
We are also getting old too!
 ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 04, 2014, 09:19:45 pm
Very good, George!

We will not give you any shit.
We are also getting old too!
 ;D

            I decided about a half hour ago! I ain't F-ing with those F-ing shrouded F-ing adjusters no' mo'. They just add more down on my knees time. Maybe with the engine on a bench & a helper I might install them. I'll just be careful to avoid 9,000 RPMs.

            So I went down, lifted the head a bit & pulled the push rods out (I hadn't put the nuts on yet) & brought them up here & sat down on my wonderful, welcoming couch with said pushrods, a piece O' paper, a pen & a scale. Measured with the shrouded adjusters & the stock adjusters. The shrouded adjusters add almost 3/16 of an inch to the overall length, compared to the stock adjusters, which is why it's impossible to install them with the head screwed down.

           I'm not fooling with them any more. Tomorrow I'll get the pushrods back in with the stock adjusters which is too easy to even talk about & proceed with the clay check. God willing & the creek don't rise   :)  ;)(http://) 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 05, 2014, 02:28:44 am
           
           I'm not fooling with them any more. Tomorrow I'll get the pushrods back in with the stock adjusters which is too easy to even talk about & proceed with the clay check. God willing & the creek don't rise   :)  ;)

            Well, I couldn't leave it alone so went back down a while ago (it's 9:20) & installed the push rods with stock adjusters set very loose just so the upper ball would not fall away from the rocker socket. Put the nuts on & cranked them to 15 pounds. Adjusted the push rods per normal & cranked her over very slow & easy.

             Ace, you'll be happy to hear the piston did not hit the exhaust valve. Tomorrow I'll pull the head & read The Tale of The Clay. I can do no mo' tonight. The only time my heart skipped a beat was when the exhaust valve started to open & I met the unfamiliar stiffness of the new valve springs. They're a bit stiffer I think. I thought for a second something had jammed.

            And remember - don't feed them after midnight  ;) ;)(http://)

 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 05, 2014, 04:07:01 am
It's the other valve that might have the issue
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Arizoni on June 05, 2014, 06:25:08 am
I guess I don't understand why the crank couldn't be set so the piston is at TDC on the firing stroke and then the pushrods installed by removing the rocker arms?   :-\

Seems like if the tappets were at their lowest position and both valves were closed removing the rocker arms would allow the push rods to be installed fairly easily?   After they were in place it should be a no brainer to reinstall the rocker arms, caps and bolts.

Maybe it's that funky compression release that's causing the issue?  :o

Never mind.   I forgot the AVL has those shafts going thru the rocker arms and was thinking about the old Iron Barrel and the UCE designs where there is a removable cap on the rocker arms.  :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on June 05, 2014, 08:54:56 am
A trick I use is to get the piston within about 1/2" of TDC compression - but not at the top to eliminate possible valve damage - and use something like a tyre lever or any other suitable means to lever the rocker arm to open the valve a little and slip the pushrod end in while the pushrod end of the rocker is raised, giving more space. It is a fiddly job and the fuel tank has to be removed for access, but it works with less faffing around than lifting the cylinder head  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 05, 2014, 12:55:26 pm
It's the other valve that might have the issue

            Yes, of course, I know that. Brain fart & I'm physically at the end of a multitude of ropes & I'm just trying to maintain. I know full well the intake is the larger.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 05, 2014, 01:00:59 pm
A trick I use is to get the piston within about 1/2" of TDC compression - but not at the top to eliminate possible valve damage - and use something like a tyre lever or any other suitable means to lever the rocker arm to open the valve a little and slip the pushrod end in while the pushrod end of the rocker is raised, giving more space. It is a fiddly job and the fuel tank has to be removed for access, but it works with less faffing around than lifting the cylinder head  ;)
 B.W.

           My head was already loose & no way could I pry on the rocker without the head tight to the cylinder & anyway not alone with only two hands which don't work. I see what you're saying (& have even talked about it here before), but I would need another set of hands which I don't have. Doesn't anybody think I think this shit out before I do it?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 05, 2014, 01:35:13 pm
I guess I don't understand why the crank couldn't be set so the piston is at TDC on the firing stroke and then the pushrods installed by removing the rocker arms?   :-\

Seems like if the tappets were at their lowest position and both valves were closed removing the rocker arms would allow the push rods to be installed fairly easily?   After they were in place it should be a no brainer to reinstall the rocker arms, caps and bolts.

Maybe it's that funky compression release that's causing the issue?  :o

Never mind.   I forgot the AVL has those shafts going thru the rocker arms and was thinking about the old Iron Barrel and the UCE designs where there is a removable cap on the rocker arms.  :-[ :-[

            I'm sorry. I'm outa here until the engine is finished & running. I want to thank everyone who's helped, including you, Arizoni, no offense, but it's distracting & of no use to me to be second-guessed at every move. Sometimes by folks who have no clue or don't read the whole thread or have never done the details. I'm alone here, I have no dealer close, I have few options if I fuck up & I DO know what I'm doing & I'm slow & methodical & careful because I HAVE to be because I'm in some physical pain all the time & that in itself makes it more difficult & maybe I HAVE bit off more than I should have this time but I've overcome way more worser things than this in my life.

            Again. I mean no offense to anyone. I'm just gonna avoid the teeny details of this job from now on. A lot of it is just distracting & too much time on this ACER thing is also VERY hard on my neck which I need to finish my bike. A half hour on this thing & I can't move my neck for an hour.       
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 05, 2014, 01:58:18 pm
            I'm sorry. I'm outa here until the engine is finished & running. I want to thank everyone who's helped, including you, Arizoni, no offense, but it's distracting & of no use to me to be second-guessed at every move. Sometimes by folks who have no clue or don't read the whole thread or have never done the details. I'm alone here, I have no dealer close, I have few options if I fuck up & I DO know what I'm doing & I'm slow & methodical & careful because I HAVE to be because I'm in some physical pain all the time & that in itself makes it more difficult & maybe I HAVE bit off more than I should have this time but I've overcome way more worser things than this in my life.

            Again. I mean no offense to anyone. I'm just gonna avoid the teeny details of this job from now on. A lot of it is just distracting & too much time on this ACER thing is also VERY hard on my neck which I need to finish my bike. A half hour on this thing & I can't move my neck for an hour.     
Was that an invitation? ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 05, 2014, 02:19:21 pm
Just take it easy, and do a step at a time.
We can wait.

If you have a question, just email me.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Arizoni on June 05, 2014, 07:50:10 pm
tooseevee
My apologies for bothering you.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: REpozer on June 05, 2014, 10:38:24 pm
Me too. Sorry.
I'm not a leader in Inovative Bullet AVL Technollogy (IBAT)

So I am here to help:
1) assemble it " like yesterday"
2) turn all fasteners "till they smoke"
3) if having mechanical problems, "hold your tongue to left side "only.
4) "ride it like you stole it"
5) " such is life"  , "life is good", " get a life ". .. Ect ( your choice .
6) " peace out man"
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 06, 2014, 03:10:36 am
Good luck 2CV!!  Kick that things ass!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Arizoni on June 06, 2014, 06:25:14 am
For what it's worth, I just read the AVL Repair Manuals description of how to change/install the push rods.

It says one removes the rocker arms by pulling the 2 pins they rotate on, then remove the rockers (being careful not to have the thrust washers fall down inside the engine) and then pull the push rods out.

Maybe doing it this way would make installing the shrouded push rods easier than the method 2CV used?

Just a thought.  :)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 06, 2014, 09:45:48 pm
For what it's worth, I just read the AVL Repair Manuals description of how to change/install the push rods.

It says one removes the rocker arms by pulling the 2 pins they rotate on, then remove the rockers (being careful not to have the thrust washers fall down inside the engine) and then pull the push rods out.

Maybe doing it this way would make installing the shrouded push rods easier than the method 2CV used?

Just a thought.  :)
That's the way I did it when I had the head here. It is a bit of a pain in the ass to fiddle with the thrust washers. But it works.
He had to take the head off again anyway because I was having him do a valve-to-piston clearance check anyway, wit clay on the piston crown and rotating past TDC on overlap.
Turns out that was a smart move, because this big valve arrangement just barely has enough valve clearance now. But it does make it safely with enough safety margin room so it won't hit.
This was a big chore for him to do, but I insisted on it to protect the new valves from potential damage if it didn't clear.
In the end, it turned out that all was well, but it was close.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 07, 2014, 12:05:39 am
That's the way I did it when I had the head here. It is a bit of a pain in the ass to fiddle with the thrust washers. But it works.
He had to take the head off again anyway because I was having him do a valve-to-piston clearance check anyway, wit clay on the piston crown and rotating past TDC on overlap.
Turns out that was a smart move, because this big valve arrangement just barely has enough valve clearance now. But it does make it safely with enough safety margin room so it won't hit.
This was a big chore for him to do, but I insisted on it to protect the new valves from potential damage if it didn't clear.
In the end, it turned out that all was well, but it was close.

I feel like I am definitely going to need to do this when I assemble the twin......
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 07, 2014, 12:32:45 am
I feel like I am definitely going to need to do this when I assemble the twin......
You will need to.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on June 07, 2014, 04:15:07 pm
The factory inlet valve can just foul the piston if you start swapping cams, so they must be running the clearances pretty tight even with the stock AVL cam. But if there is any evidence of slight valve to piston crown contact (apart from the loud CLANK when you first try and turn the engine over), you at least know where to cut a shallow pocket for the valve!

Refitting the sprung thrust washers is a right royal a pain, I used to hate that job more than the tappet adjustment until I found out I could use the handle on my larger tap wrench to guide everything into line for refitting the rocker shafts. A spare rocker shaft ground to a taper at one end would also do. Or speak nicely to a friend with a lathe and some spare steel bar. Don't struggle.

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 07, 2014, 10:05:12 pm
     Just for info for you guys: the pushrods with the stock adjusters install super easy if screwed in to the shortest if you haven't torqued down the head yet & it's just sitting loose on the head gasket. And of course, you're at TDC compression & the lifters are all the way down. Once you get the rod in its rocker socket & the adjuster located over the lifter, it's a simple matter to turn the adjuster down with fingers just far enough so the pushrod ball end can't fall out of its rocker socket. Leave Them Very Loose 8)   

            Now torque your head down in stages checking once in a while to see that the push rods are still loose. With the head torqued to its final 20, adjust your push rods per usual. This worked out VERY easy for me & if it seemed easy for me ANYbody can do it   :) ;)

             If I EVER try those shrouded adjusters again down the road, I will have 20 or 30 thousandths taken off of the bottom surface of the shroud. They are just plain too long to deal with alone & they are just plain too long; They add 3/16" to the overall length of each rod. They just might fit over the lifters without all the drama if shortened up a bit & they would still do their job.

             I'll never rev this engine high enough to need shrouded push rods anyway  ;D   :) :)(http://) Who am *I* kidding?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: azcatfan on June 07, 2014, 10:18:08 pm
Congrats 2CV, can't wait for you to experience the finished product! :D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 07, 2014, 10:52:38 pm
Excellent 2CV!  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 13, 2014, 04:29:20 pm
   I've tried to write here for a couple days & crap keeps happening. This morning went to my daughter & yesterday I wrote for almost an hour & when I hit Post I just got a blank white screen. Kept trying - same thing. So I gave up -my neck was shot.

        Anyway - I'm there. I could have started it yesterday, but it just didn't work out. Picture below shows where I'm at now. All back together, valves adjusted, oil at the rockers, valve covers on, silencer on, battery charged & installed & a remote fuel supply created in case something turns up where I would have to pull the tank again right away. I also put the UCE kicker back on for the added leverage. It's 9.8:1 comp ratio now & I think the new valve springs are stiffer.

            I'm going down pretty soon & try to start her up. I want it to kick start from the getgo so I'll try that first. If I have to I'll use the starter after I've collapsed on the floor from kicking  ;) 

            I don't know yet if the TM 32 will want choke or not to start so all that is still up in the air. I haven't moved the idle speed screw yet from new & the mixture screw is two turns out. It is jetted per Ace's reeko mendashuns for initial start up & dialing-in. I'll probably kick a while with no choke & then kick a while with choke. If no luck at all I'll use the starter.

             More later   ;D(http://)

           

         
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 13, 2014, 05:21:25 pm
Fingers crossed!
 ;D

Anyway, it's my guess that if you allow the float bowl to fill completely after turning on the petcock, and then pull up the choke knob, it should start on one or two kicks. Push the choke knob back down when the engine sounds like it is laboring, and wants the choke off.

Be sure that throttle cable isn't getting stuck, and be ready to hit the kill button if necessary.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: azcatfan on June 13, 2014, 05:25:08 pm
So awesome!  cannot wait to get the first ride report  8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 13, 2014, 06:06:07 pm
Fingers crossed!
 ;D

Anyway, it's my guess that if you allow the float bowl to fill completely after turning on the petcock, and then pull up the choke knob, it should start on one or two kicks. Push the choke knob back down when the engine sounds like it is laboring, and wants the choke off.

Be sure that throttle cable isn't getting stuck, and be ready to hit the kill button if necessary.

            Ha!  :) There's no petcock on my plastic jug, Ace. I forgot that part  ;)(http://)

             Anyway. 4 kicks, no choke, running. Dropped right into a smooth idle without me doing anything. So it's probably a hair rich.

             Checked all 'round with a bright light - no leaks apparent. Throttle works smooth. Snaps right back down when released. Let it run 'till the banjos got hot. By then I had had to lower the idle speed a bit (same as with the BS-29).

               It sounds Bee Eee Aye YOO Tee Full !! to me. I'll try it again later then put the tank on. Raining here. Not going nowhere nohow today. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 13, 2014, 07:04:58 pm
Excellent!
I'm very happy to hear that report.
 8)
I forgot that plastic jugs don't have petcocks! :)
 
With the increased compression, it will be very important to listen for ping when you get it out on the road, under load on throttle, or up hills.
It may not ping, but I would like you to be listening for it, just in case.

Obviously, if you do hear any ping, please avoid it by backing off the throttle to make it go away, and we will address the solutions then.

I'm feeling very good about this.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on June 13, 2014, 09:55:40 pm
did anyone here have to get longer pushrods for the avl with S cams?  After i installed the S cams i felt the inlet pushrod was too loose and i unscrewed the adjuster  almost all the way out and it bent right in half when i turned the engine over with the kickstart
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 13, 2014, 10:11:41 pm
Excellent!
I'm very happy to hear that report.
 8)
I forgot that plastic jugs don't have petcocks! :)
 
With the increased compression, it will be very important to listen for ping when you get it out on the road, under load on throttle, or up hills.
It may not ping, but I would like you to be listening for it, just in case.

Obviously, if you do hear any ping, please avoid it by backing off the throttle to make it go away, and we will address the solutions then.

I'm feeling very good about this.

            Yup. I'm happy, too, and I'm glad you're happy. I must admit I was a bit apprehensive on the first startup. I didn't expect it to go so easy.

             Yes, I'll definitely listen for ping. I know the perfect grade where I can load it up a bit in 4th & listen good. I've timed many cars using the "ping under load" method.

              The 2nd start an hour later was a bit different. Three kicks, no choke, nothing. Three more kicks with choke- nothing. Choke off - one micro-second of the start button & it was running & dropped into a nice idle with no hand on the throttle. So some tweaking is yet to come, but I can't even play with the mixture until I get it out & really warm it up. That alone could solve my kick start problem (if it's even a problem).

               Overall I am eck static ;D(http://)  And it sounds SO good. Dare I call it a more gutsy, throaty sound than before?

              PS: It's got 93 octane in it with a 1/2 oz. MMO per gallon.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 13, 2014, 10:25:16 pm
Great!

I suspect that it is going to need that 93 octane gas.
That was a good choice to put in there!
 :)

It should sound gutsy!
The compression is up almost a point and a half!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 13, 2014, 11:27:54 pm
Congrats 2CV!  Well done!  Can't wait to hear how she flies down the road.

A couple of things your post reminded to share.

1. The pilot screw is very sensitive. I find 1/8 turns covers a fair range.
2. Your 2nd kick starting was the same prob I had. I found if I pulled choke, kicked once resulted in nothing, I push the choke back down and then she fires. Sometimes I've had to clear the chamber.  But now I'm a 1 kick starter.
3. I got some extra TM32 brass if you need it. A 27.5 pilot, a P2 needle jet (order by error and failed to notice) and a few extra mains. Just say the word....

Congrats again!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 13, 2014, 11:51:27 pm
Awesome tooseevee!  Glad you got her back together working on the first try!  :D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 14, 2014, 12:23:47 am
Congrats 2CV!  Well done!  Can't wait to hear how she flies down the road.

A couple of things your post reminded to share.

1. The pilot screw is very sensitive. I find 1/8 turns covers a fair range.
2. Your 2nd kick starting was the same prob I had. I found if I pulled choke, kicked once resulted in nothing, I push the choke back down and then she fires. Sometimes I've had to clear the chamber.  But now I'm a 1 kick starter.
3. I got some extra TM32 brass if you need it. A 27.5 pilot, a P2 needle jet (order by error and failed to notice) and a few extra mains. Just say the word....
Congrats again!

           Thanks, Dan.

            That's what I thought I would try in the morning; One or two kicks with the choke then another with the choke off & see how that works out.

             I think the pilot & mixture are pretty damn close (I'm at 1 3/4 turns out with a #30 Pilot, but can't be sure 'til I get on the road.

             Just for info what's in it now is:

             Stock needle it came with, clip in middle groove of 5
             Stock Needle jet (Q-2) replaced with a P-4
             #30 Pilot
             #195 Main 
              Mixture screw 1 3/4 turns out. (I leaned it out a hair  from 1 1/2 because it started so easy with no choke).

               PS: I was never at 2 turns out as I said before. I was at 1 1/2.
               On Hand right now I have: 180, 185, 190 & 200 Mains & 27.5, 32.5 & 35 Pilots. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on June 14, 2014, 12:55:04 am
The world holds its breath... well some of us, anyway!  ;D I like the steady tick-over on a tuned motor, it bodes well for something usable on the street.

Armando,

my Electra-X coped with stock pushrods when it ran on "S" cams. The project AVL however needed longer pushrods as the cam followers/tappets are off the Iron engine, so if your X needs a longer set you can modify a set of Iron engine 500 pushrods cut to length (get the later metric ones so that the 6mm AVL tappet adjusters can be used) with the tops plugged and bored out to 5mm (4.9mm?) so that you can fit AVL pushrod tops. I'm sorry I can't give you the revised pushrod length, you'll have to measure it!

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 14, 2014, 02:09:41 am
The world holds its breath... well some of us, anyway!  ;D I like the steady tick-over on a tuned motor, it bodes well for something usable on the street.

A.

I'm holding my breath! ;D

This head really has received a drastic technology increase, and this combustion chamber has the potential to actually tolerate this high compression ratio without detonation.
It has the potential to be a major development milestone for the efficiency of these Bullet platforms.

We shall see.
 8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 14, 2014, 04:59:25 am
Hey 2cv, I just wanna chime in my congratulations on a job well done.
And for whatever it's worth, My usual start up with the TM32 goes something like this:
1.With ignition off, Choke nob up, kick through once. Reset kicker.
 2. Choke nob down, Key ON, kick to start.
And NO throttle!
3. Rev throttle lightly after about 10 seconds of idling.
The aforementioned is for cooler days (60F and below) and a cold engine.
Warmer than that, I usually only need a 1 kick through (key off) with no choke. Then the starting kick.
Most summer days I dispense with the initial primer kick altogether and just go for the money shot.
As DanB mentioned, I've also found the air screw very sensitive with only 1/4 turn adjustments needed. as the seasons change.

Wishing you all the best!
Chuck.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 14, 2014, 02:58:35 pm
Hey 2cv, I just wanna chime in my congratulations on a job well done.
And for whatever it's worth, My usual start up with the TM32 goes something like this:
1.With ignition off, Choke nob up, kick through once. Reset kicker.
 2. Choke nob down, Key ON, kick to start.
And NO throttle!
3. Rev throttle lightly after about 10 seconds of idling.
The aforementioned is for cooler days (60F and below) and a cold engine.
Warmer than that, I usually only need a 1 kick through (key off) with no choke. Then the starting kick.
Most summer days I dispense with the initial primer kick altogether and just go for the money shot.
As DanB mentioned, I've also found the air screw very sensitive with only 1/4 turn adjustments needed. as the seasons change.

Wishing you all the best!
Chuck.

            Thanks, Chuck. I tried exactly that earlier this gray, very damp, warm morning. You can squeeze water out of the air with your hands.

             One kick choke pulled key off. Two kicks choke off key on & it was running. Had to really quick increase idle speed screw a little.

              In a minute or two the idle speeds up by itself & wants to be slowed down. Does yours do that?

               Also after it's warmed to where the banjos are hot, it's just a hair slow to return to idle (no, it's not the cable) so I might be a little lean in the mixture. I don't want to change it now because it starts so good. When I'm able to get the engine actually hot I'll play the mixture screw game.

                It sits and runs solid as a rock at any RPM up to, I suppose, 2,000 sitting in the garage. It sounds REALLY good (have I said that before?  ;)(http://) ) & there's none of that "Oh, I'm too rich" stink. It even SMells good! 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 14, 2014, 03:18:01 pm
On my twin I had to settle on a happy medium for the idle speed.  Cold idle lugs just a hair for about the first minute or so, but I blip the throttle when it's cold anyways.  Then after it warms up it settles in at about 1100-1250 RPMs.  A little bit higher than I like a warm idle at, but I don't like baby sitting the throttle when it's warming up either.  I never just jump on and go, so when I hear the idle speed increase a couple hundred RPMs I know she's ready for riding.   :)

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 14, 2014, 03:34:47 pm
If you want a stable hot idle, you have to set the carb adjustments when it's hot. This way, it won't stall on you when it is hot and you are at a stoplight or whatever. It might make it a little bit more cranky when  cold idling, but it might be okay, and you can blip it occasionally during warm-up if you have to.

IMO, as long as it starts relatively easy, it is better to have it stable when hot. Being a little cranky when cold helps to enforce a sufficient warm up time, which will help avoid unwanted engine problems. Just don't ride off until it's warm enough to reach thermally-expanded engine clearances. This is key in all air cooled designs, because they have such a wide range of temperatures that the clearances need to get to operating temps or excessive friction may occur.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 14, 2014, 03:56:51 pm
Quote
              In a minute or two the idle speeds up by itself & wants to be slowed down. Does yours do that?

Yep!  Exactly like mine. I thought at first my step up was wrong, but have learned this is ok. I just make sure the bike warms up. I believe it's all that alloy on our AVLs....
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 14, 2014, 04:23:55 pm
           
              In a minute or two the idle speeds up by itself & wants to be slowed down. Does yours do that?

Yes it does but only by a few hundred rpm's as the engine warms. Even at full operating temps I find that the rpm's will fluctuate from one stoplight to the next somewhat. My sweetspot idle is right at 1500 rpm. That just sounds right to my ear, with the engine neither racing nor laboring to rotate.
And as Tom notes, best to set the idle speed with a hot engine. I think you'll find as I have that this carb is flexible enough to give you relatively easy cold starting (once you get your routine down pat).
Chuck.

             
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 14, 2014, 07:40:53 pm
             Well, things were going too well   >:( :(

              Got all the disaster I had left over the past month straightened up. Tank on nice & easy with new hard poly washers, no wires or cables trapped, hoses all experimented with & finally hooked up, dumped 2 gallons fuel in the tank, turned petcock on & as Wyatt said to Billy in the campfire scene in Easy Rider "We blew it, Billy. We blew it".

      I had checked that cheezy plastic fuel filter they put on that petcock (I shoulda left it alone it was fine before) & I either crossed it or stripped it slightly & I had a 2 drop/second drip.

        Shit >:( :-[(http://)

         So I went through all the drain the tank BS while holding a rag under the drip. Thankgod I had only bought 2 gallons of gas.

          So I'll look for a new petcock now after I eat. godi'mstarvingdidn'thavebreakfastjust coffee   
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 14, 2014, 08:10:34 pm
Stuff happens.
If I had a nickel for every time I had some problem come up, I'd be a millionaire.
You'll get it straightened out.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 14, 2014, 11:13:40 pm
Bummer.  :(  Like Ace said, stuff happens.  At least it's just a petcock/filter problem, it could be way worse.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 14, 2014, 11:55:15 pm
Bummer.  :(  Like Ace said, stuff happens.  At least it's just a petcock/filter problem, it could be way worse.

            This is the petcock. The $40 plus shipping one:

            http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/fuel-tap.html

            It's gone up $10 since the last catalog I got.

            I'm in the mood right now to just seal it up permanently (the filter threads) with J-B Weld so I can ride tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 15, 2014, 12:27:44 am
            This is the petcock. The $40 plus shipping one:

            http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/fuel-tap.html

            It's gone up $10 since the last catalog I got.

            I'm in the mood right now to just seal it up permanently (the filter threads) with J-B Weld so I can ride tomorrow.

That could work.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 15, 2014, 12:30:56 am
Wow, those prices are absurd!  I paid $20 for a PAIR of petcocks and I bought them in town.  Maybe before JB Weld try some Permatex Sealant #1.  I used it on my new petcocks and they don't leak a drip.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 15, 2014, 01:16:43 pm
Wow, those prices are absurd!  I paid $20 for a PAIR of petcocks and I bought them in town.  Maybe before JB Weld try some Permatex Sealant #1.  I used it on my new petcocks and they don't leak a drip.

Scottie J

            I went down around 6:30 last night & pulled the petcock. I cleaned the whole thing especially the plastic threads with carb cleaner & dried it all good with the hair dryer.  I used this stuff I've had around for a long time. It's really good stuff for things you don't want to use J-B Weld on. I used it to make my remote gas jug & nary a leak:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/seal-all-contact-adhesive-and-sealant-380112/7010007-P?jadid=31043623525&jap=1t1&jkId=gpt:pt_134962&js=1&jsid=34339&jt=1&jr=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/seal-all-contact-adhesive-and-sealant-380112/7010007-P

        I'll get it all back together later this morning & see how it goes. I want it to dry really well. I don't choose to die in a flaming ball of death today if that cheezy plastic filter falls out  ;)(http://)

         Then I'll order a new one.  I hate to pay for that plastic filter, but the threads have to match the male tank fitting. 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian on June 15, 2014, 02:59:11 pm
Quote
I'll get it all back together later this morning & see how it goes. I want it to dry really well. I don't choose to die in a flaming ball of death today if that cheezy plastic filter falls out  ;)

Yeah, that's not quite the sort of Fireball Tom is trying to sell ya!  :o  Is your local Fire Department on standby?

Regards,

A.


 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 16, 2014, 01:51:06 pm
Yeah, that's not quite the sort of Fireball Tom is trying to sell ya!  :o  Is your local Fire Department on standby?

Regards,

A.

             Best laid plans of mice & men aft gang aglay...

              I had the best of intentions yesterday (Sunday) when I was hi-jacked by Father's Day & my daughter & twin grandchilds turned up & hung around most of the afternoon.

              I'll try harder today  ;) after we do the groshery store thing  >:((http://)  It's been a long time.

               I did get a nice 2' Picea glauca conica out of it. Now I hafta dig a damn hole  :((http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 17, 2014, 11:40:04 am
     Well, I got a Round Tuit late yesterday afternoon & cranked the old girl up in the garage & let 'er warm up. Then I backed her out & was getting my hat & jacket situated & noticed a drip drip drip & an increasingly spreading puddle of gasoline on the concrete. Oh, shit! Didn't notice it before because the bike sits on an old kitcken hooked rup in the garage.

       Anyway. I've got a really good float bowl overflow leak so today I've got to go get a new can of carb blower & see if I can blow it clear with the float bowl off without having to pull the needle valve. I'll have to pull the carb to do that otherwise I'm afraid of bending something.

         Have any others had luck blowing this needle valve clean?  I'm off now to get the wife's oil & filter changed plus the cable guy's coming between 8 AM & 5 PM  :) ;) Godknows what I'll get done today. Bike sounded good in the driveway  >:((http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 17, 2014, 12:20:03 pm
Sometimes you can just give the side of the float bowl a good rap with the plastic handle of a screwdriver, and it might dislodge the little piece of grit that is stuck there.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on June 17, 2014, 01:50:20 pm
Sometimes you can just give the side of the float bowl a good rap with the plastic handle of a screwdriver, and it might dislodge the little piece of grit that is stuck there.
+1 and another way that often sorts it is to ride with the fuel tap switched off and quickly switch it back on when the engine starts to falter - the sudden incoming rush of fuel passing a more open than usual float needle usually does the job  ;)
 B.W.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 17, 2014, 06:33:41 pm
+1 and another way that often sorts it is to ride with the fuel tap switched off and quickly switch it back on when the engine starts to falter - the sudden incoming rush of fuel passing a more open than usual float needle usually does the job  ;)
 B.W.

+1
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 24, 2014, 02:53:46 pm
So, are we okay, or what?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 25, 2014, 12:58:39 am
So, are we okay, or what?

            This story can finally start to be told & it's funny that you should ask today - the very day that I had decided to post something depending on the results of my latest experiment which I have just come upstairs from conducting & it was the best of ALL of them in the past 13 days since that first (beginner's luck  ;) ) 4-kick start after all the head work & a new, different carburetor.

        First I'm sorry it's been so long especially for you, Ace, but I had to do this my way so I could keep all the changes straight in my head & not get  too many suggestions thrown at me for each new little problem that always seem to be 180 degrees from each other. 

         I'm gonna stick to just the good stuff in this post & leave the "nightmares" for tomorrow. It's sposta' rain.

          First off, the engine is absolutely MARvelous in every way out on the road & is now a totally improved better bike in every way in every gear. It gets to any given speed way easier than before & is perfectly tractable in any gear any speed. It sits on 50 in 5th so easy & solid (or in 4th) it's mystical. It jumps to 70 (on the speedo) from 50 in 5th so easily & quickly I sometimes think I'm on the harley. I think I've held 70 with no problem & no feeling of straining 3 times for a couple miles only because I'm not comfortable any more at 70, I hate the wind. I'm sure it would cruise at 60 as long as I'd care to or the gas ran out.

         I've also checked very carefully for ping in a lot of different ways & there's not a hint of the evil ball bearings in a coffee can  (93 octane with a dash of MMO).

           It will also putt along happily like a watch on the blue roads (flat, no load) in 4th at 30, 35, 40, 45 up & down with smooth, Porsche-like down shifts for any corners where 3rd feels better with just an uncanny smoothness. Also solid as a rock idles (now) at lights or stop signs with no sign of "fixin' to die".   

          My real problem (nothing new) is that after 20 miles my right arm is in such F-ing pain from neck to fingers that I have to head home or stop & get off. Just the weight of the arm itself will dislocate it. It's what gonna stop me very soon, I think. But not yet.

           More tomorrow. Ace, I could not be happier. Thank you.   
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 25, 2014, 02:08:46 am
That was a very nice report, Tooseevee!
It makes me happy! I am always happy when our efforts succeed at what our clients wanted from the modifications.
It sounds to me like the bike behaves like the Iron Barrel Fireball, with the hallmark of mystical smoothness and power on tap that they all seem to have. That is a very important set of characteristics for a street machine. I'm very pleased that it is behaving that way.

If you haven't had to change the compression since we last spoke, then it is working in a compression range which no other Bullet(that I know of) has been able to reach on pump gas. It's nearly 10:1 static compression. That chamber mod must really be working! I am extremely pleased about that!

In fact, I'm really pleased about everything in your report.
I'll be interested to read the "nightmares" you encountered. I hope they weren't too bad.

Thank you, Tooseevee, for having the faith in our abilities to be the first AVL owner to take this plunge. We worked to the best of our abilities to give you the best result that we were capable of, for your intended application.
 ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 27, 2014, 01:19:21 pm
Great report! I'm glad that everything is starting to gel for you, you deserve it. Best of luck and keep keeping us informed.
Also, a video walkaround would be cool. ::)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 28, 2014, 01:30:46 pm
Great report! I'm glad that everything is starting to gel for you, you deserve it. Best of luck and keep keeping us informed.
Also, a video walkaround would be cool. ::)

            Hey, Chuck. Just noticed your post this morning. For some reason I'm not being "Notified" any more. I thought there for a while nobody cared about all the work Ace & his crew did but Ace.

             I tried doing a video a couple years ago, but then the computer for some reason decided it would not run it & just turned it into a static picture. Who knows? Maybe I'll give it another try.

             I still haven't hit on exactly "the right stuff" in the carb tuning process to make it a steady one or two kick starter (& I've spent a full two weeks on pilot jets, mixture screw & various starting techniques letting it cool 2 or 3 hours between each change or overnight). I've gone one jet up & one jet down on the way with endless mixture screw settings & looky looks at the plug. I think the needle height is OK. I really don't want to deal with that spring ever again  >:(

            I'm now back with the #30 Pilot I started with, mixture screw at 2 1/4 turns out & it's the best it's been. Compression is amazing now; harder to get to that just right place past TDC (the so-called compression release on the AVL is totally useless. You have to "feel it yourself" with your foot).   

            That 2 1/4 turns out seems to me to indicate one size smaller Pilot, but it did not like THAT at all.

             I'm also getting more sprag chatter at the bottom of unsuccessful kick strokes than before & I HATE that noise. Somewhere down the line it's ALL coming out! I HATE that friggin' sound.

             Once it's running it's marvelous, but I've almost ended up on the floor a couple times when I've gotten so pissed I didn't stop & walk away soon enough. What it seems to want at the present settings is one kick with the key off & the choke pulled then two to three kicks with the choke off key on. I need to get that to one or two kicks some day. And one kick warm PERiod. I cannot deal with hard starts if I stop somewhere; I'll end up in the hospital with my hip ball jammed in my liver    :) ;)(http://) 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 28, 2014, 01:39:34 pm
2-1/4 turns out is within the acceptable range. It can accept up to 3 turns out.
The starting behavior is all in the pilot and the air bleed screw.

Sometimes if you do a "priming kick" prior to turning the key on, that can help with starting.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 28, 2014, 02:38:56 pm
Tooseevee - Next time try your priming kicks with the choke on to help get some fuel in the cylinder.  And I hate to say it but if your bike seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place for the needle jets, you might need to stay with the larger needle jet and drop the needle itself one notch.  I know that the carb spring/slide assembly is a PITA but you definitely should be able to start that beast in 1 or 2 kicks.  Just out of curiosity, about how many revolutions is the motor turning when you kick?  I have to really stomp my twin to get it to come around 2 revolutions and when it comes around on the 2nd turn is when it catches and fires.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 28, 2014, 02:50:09 pm
Hi tooseevee,
Just as a point of reference, I'll give you some of the carb settings that I've found to work well throughout the season. I'm in the temperate northeast (NY) and usually near to sea level.

35-60F:
30 pilot 2.5-2.25 turns out.
P6 -P4 needle jet. (it starts wanting the P4 at around 45-50 degrees).
6dp17 (clip on the 3rd or middle slot).
185 main.

60-80F
30 pilot 2.5 turns out.
P4 needle jet.
Needle stays in the 3rd (middle) slot.
180 main.

80-100F
30 pilot 2.5-2.75 turns out.
P4
At this point you might want to experiment with lowering the needle by half a slot with a shim. This if you start to notice a slight hiccup in the 1/4-1/3 throttle range. Yes, I know it's a pain and it might not even be an issue. Forget I mentioned it. ;D.

Very cold (35 and below)
As above with 190 main and a P6.

So, in case you didn't notice, you're really only swapping the main and needle jet a couple of times a year and zeroing in on a perfect idle over only 3/4 of turn on the air bleed screw. I always have a tiny screwdriver in my pocket for that.

As Tom mentioned, that priming kick prior to turning the key on will help. At this time of year I leave the choke OFF. As it gets even warmer, I usually even forgo the priming kick. But that's just my bike and it doesn't need or want a huge flood of gas to start. Even in cooler temps. It sounds to me like yours might be similar in that regard.

Hope you find this useful.

Chuck.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: azcatfan on June 28, 2014, 03:48:02 pm
                         I'm also getting more sprag chatter at the bottom of unsuccessful kick strokes than before & I HATE that noise. Somewhere down the line it's ALL coming out! I HATE that friggin' sound.

When I was rejetting the carb after the Ace air intake and gutted HD silencer I found the tuning nerve racking.  I have an '02 with the unimproved Indian Hand Grenade on the front for a starter.  While tuning the carb after the upjet, the occasional stall would occur and there was that nasty sound- 'click wrrrrrr'  So I feel your pain there.  I never use the damn thing, and the first reason I have to be in that far, it is coming out.

Sometimes if you do a "priming kick" prior to turning the key on, that can help with starting.

I've always done this, I kind of like the idea of some oil getting moved around as well.  Even in cold (well, cold for AZ) it's usually a one-kick affair after the 'prime'.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 28, 2014, 03:56:13 pm
2-1/4 turns out is within the acceptable range. It can accept up to 3 turns out.
The starting behavior is all in the pilot and the air bleed screw.

Sometimes if you do a "priming kick" prior to turning the key on, that can help with starting.

             Read my last paragraph again, Ace. That's exactly what I HAVE been doing. That's what it seems to want with the #30 pilot & 2 1/4 turns out.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 28, 2014, 04:00:50 pm
             Read my last paragraph again, Ace. That's exactly what I HAVE been doing. That's what it seems to want with the #30 pilot & 2 1/4 turns out.

Okay, well you ARE close.
It is just very fine fiddling with the screw that will get the last bit there. And as Chuck points out, that will change with the temperatures and seasonal weather conditions.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 28, 2014, 04:05:34 pm
Tooseevee - Next time try your priming kicks with the choke on to help get some fuel in the cylinder.  And I hate to say it but if your bike seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place for the needle jets, you might need to stay with the larger needle jet and drop the needle itself one notch.
Scottie J

           Read the last paragraph again. That's what I'm doing; one kick Key Off Choke ON. Two kicks (sometimes 3) choke off key on.

           And I haven't done anything to the needle jet or the needle. They're the same from day one.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 28, 2014, 04:59:36 pm
Hey 2CV,

Thanks for posting the update!  How's the low end torque with the head work?  I think I'm following your footsteps this autumn.

Starting: I had exactly the same problem youre having. Here's how I've been getting 1 kick starts, cold and warm: 

1. Air screw.  Set it up as usual (sounds like you have). Then rich it up by 1/8 or less turn cw.

2. One prime kick. No choke and no key.

3. Find Your kick starting position.

4. Key on, kill switch on, choke off for summer.

5. Lightly grab throttle and take out slack in the cable. A very light touch. Anything more and she'll kick back thru carb.

6. Kick thru and if it catches, roll throttle a bit.

If she does not catch and is being a bitch :-*, choke on and repeat. Close choke almost immediately after start. If that doesn't work, choke off and clear chamber. Back to step 5.

I'm thinking with all the alloy at cold, the AVL wants just a wee bit more air and by lifting the slide just a tiny bit seems to make all the difference. I saw this as well with my CV carb when I opened the intake and exhaust. Just a different technique with the TM. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 28, 2014, 05:49:03 pm
Hey 2CV,

Thanks for posting the update!  How's the low end torque with the head work?  I think I'm following your footsteps this autumn.

            The low end torque is great for it only having the (Only?  ;)(http://) The headwork was amazing) headwork done & a different carb. I don't ride like this normally, but I can cruise easily on a flat road with a nice steady throttle at 30 in 4th then quite easily pull right out to 50 in 4th without a hiccup or a fart.

           I've found very similar results to yours in the tuning process (& I expected this. It's no surprise). The throttle thing is most important. You can lose it after it fires once or twice if you're not "just right" on the throttle fondling. And, yes, I've found that just a C-hair open on the throttle is what it wants.

            It started perfect just a few minutes ago after my video attempt. If it started like it just did most of the time I would be in Shit City without one complaint.

             And you're right about it's happy a little rich. So is my shovelhead.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 28, 2014, 06:02:23 pm
Great report! I'm glad that everything is starting to gel for you, you deserve it. Best of luck and keep keeping us informed.
Also, a video walkaround would be cool. ::)

            I took a video, but I guess only EYE get to see it. It will NOT upload for some reason.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 28, 2014, 10:47:22 pm
This AVL job is a little different than the Iron Barrel Fireball.
It leans a bit harder on compression and combustion efficiency, and a little bit less on air flow. We accentuated the strengths of this somewhat more modern head design, as compared to the different strengths of the vintage Iron Barrel head.

It was a very interesting exercise, and a lot was learned because we were not afraid to push the envelope. And now, the performance envelope for the AVL extends somewhat further than previously thought

I think for higher rpms than 6000, or for 535 displacement, more flow from higher lift would be appropriate. But, for a 500 with mods only in the head/intake/exhaust, and nothing down below, it is quite a bump, especially in the torque department. I should think that this will be popular, partly because it is an easy install, basically just a head swap.

Based on reasonable estimation criteria of a 15% compression increase yielding 15% torque increase, and that there is enough breathing to get to 6000 rpm, we can calculate thus:
28.75 × 6000/5252 = 32.84 hp at the crank.

For 6500 rpm it might be more like 35 hp at the crank.

And if the breathing adds more torque than just the 15% compression increase , then the hp will also be higher yet. Depending on the rpm and torque figures, we may be looking at anywhere from 10-15 peak hp increase.
So, those would be some rational estimates which are probably in the ballpark. More would be possible with cams and/or ratio rockers.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on June 29, 2014, 02:58:43 am
           Read the last paragraph again. That's what I'm doing; one kick Key Off Choke ON. Two kicks (sometimes 3) choke off key on.

           And I haven't done anything to the needle jet or the needle. They're the same from day one.
:-\

Sorry about that post 2CV, I guess I didn't have enough coffee in me yet when I read and responded to that post.   

and +1 on cracking the throttle a hair when cold.  My bike won't even sputter when cold if I don't crack the throttle a bit.  Personally, I get the piston in starting/kicking position and then roll the throttle back to where I like it (about an 1/8 throttle) and then grab a handful of front brake to stabilize my hand on the throttle and the bike itself.  Then I try kicking her to the moon.

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 29, 2014, 04:45:05 am
            I've found that just a C-hair open on the throttle is what it wants.

Imperial, Metric or British C-hair  ;)?  Ours have a bit of each!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 29, 2014, 10:45:27 pm
            I took a video, but I guess only EYE get to see it. It will NOT upload for some reason.

            Does anyone know why a .MOV video won't upload here?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 29, 2014, 11:12:56 pm
.mov files are not listed as an accepted file type in the attachment section of this site.
One way around that is to upload the file to a file sharing site that accepts those files, such as photobucket maybe?, and then post a url link here in a post, so that we can click the link and watch the video on the other site.
Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on June 30, 2014, 12:34:49 am
.mov files are not listed as an accepted file type in the attachment section of this site.
One way around that is to upload the file to a file sharing site that accepts those files, such as photobucket maybe?, and then post a url link here in a post, so that we can click the link and watch the video on the other site.
Hope that helps.

         So let's see if this works. I forgot I had a photobucket account it was so long ago.

http://s381.photobucket.com/user/tooseevee/library/?sort=3&page=1

       I guess it worked. It's jerky like a monkey fucking a football from getting down on my knees & back up plus I can't see the screen in the sun at all. Oh, well...
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on June 30, 2014, 12:54:40 am
Looks great!
Clean as a whistle!

Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on June 30, 2014, 03:06:57 am
Looks v good!  Video came thru perfectly. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: REpozer on June 30, 2014, 02:31:31 pm
Nice vidio ,smooth enigine.
The valves sounded kinda like wind chimes to me .
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Chuck D on June 30, 2014, 04:57:34 pm
Nice vidio ,smooth enigine.
The valves sounded kinda like wind chimes to me .
;D Beat me to it.

Lovely lookin' bike!
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on July 03, 2014, 07:35:02 pm
I'm hoping to hear about some riding experiences on this bike over the holiday. Hopefully, the weather will permit.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on July 27, 2014, 01:22:11 am
Bumping this back to the top. How's the bike 2CV?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on August 02, 2014, 09:42:26 pm
Bumping this back to the top. How's the bike 2CV?

           Many things have kept me from riding/writing. Wet, too hot, pain, my last big This Old House project going into Month Two. Very detailed, very time-consuming. Hour on, hour off, repeat. Moan on couch.

           Many Pilot jet switches with many mixture screw adjustments. I'm back to the original #30 now with exactly 3 full turns Out on the air screw. This is the ONLY setting that will give me reliable, repeatable kick starts. Any other setting & I can't trust it not to kill me if I go somewhere & shut it down for a few minutes when hot. I can trust it now; First start in the morning: One kick key off, richener pulled. Two (sometimes 3) kicks key on. Tiny bit of throttle when it first fires. In ten or 15 seconds you can let go & it will idle like a watch. When hot & shut down up to an hour just kick NOTHING else. After an hour it wants the richener again for one kick.

         It runs marvelously well out on the road or around town. That's all I can say; "Marvelously well". I'm not the best motorcycle review writer for this bike. I've never ridden a "sport bike" or been a canyon runner & only had a Brit bike for one riding season, a 250cc vertical single BSA (mid-'50s as I remember). I rode it from Providence to the Block Island ferry in Jan '60 & rebuilt it on the island that Winter It was beat to death & had no generation at all. I stopped twice at gas stations on the way to the ferry to charge the battery for an hour AND froze my young punk ass off! But I HAD to have a motorcycle  :)  :)  I left that bike on Block Island when I left & have been a garage-built harley rider the rest of my 77 years.

           I love this little black bike & all I know is that it runs Grrrrate!. Thanks, Ace. And everybody else who's given me hints or advice. OR smart-ass remarks  ;D  ;)  :)(http://)       
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on August 02, 2014, 09:56:00 pm
     Now for another question on this horrible rainy day:

        I've noticed that the left side vent tube on the TM-32 is always wet. Not a drip, but just wet. I get fuel on my finger if I tickle the end of the tube. This is true for even a short, just-a-warmup, run in the garage to keep my kicking leg from atrophying.

         Is that a right-on-the-edge float height warning?

          Just what ARE those vent tubes for? 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: azcatfan on August 02, 2014, 09:59:36 pm
Great bike 2CV, I only wish I could hear/see/smell it!  Now that it is tuned, you have the reward of riding when you're up for it rather than working on it, congrats!   8)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ERC on August 02, 2014, 11:08:30 pm
If the tube is on the bottom of the bowl the float level could be to high. If it comes out of the top it's a vent and could be venting vapor out. That's my guess. I don't know what a TM 32 looks like I'm just guessing.  ERC 
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Adrian II on August 03, 2014, 12:51:17 am
I think the plastic vent tubes are to carry the gas away from the air intake if you get grit under the float needle holding it open and causing the carb to flood and carry on flooding, thereby draining your gas tank onto the road, and thus achieving a slight decrease in the fire risk! That's what the otherwise excellent VM 32 Mikuni on my old BSA did to me once, before I fitted an in line fuel filter. Dell'Orto PHF's also have them, though they're black. Perhaps Mikuni think we just love pink spaghetti draped everywhere, part of the inscrutable Japanese sense of humor?

A.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on August 03, 2014, 12:57:41 pm
I think the plastic vent tubes are to carry the gas away from the air intake if you get grit under the float needle holding it open and causing the carb to flood and carry on flooding, thereby draining your gas tank onto the road, and thus achieving a slight decrease in the fire risk! That's what the otherwise excellent VM 32 Mikuni on my old BSA did to me once, before I fitted an in line fuel filter. Dell'Orto PHF's also have them, though they're black. Perhaps Mikuni think we just love pink spaghetti draped everywhere, part of the inscrutable Japanese sense of humor?

A.

            I'm getting no drips from the float bowl overflow tube which says my float valve is working & the height is OK. The other two (pink ;)(http://)) tubes are up high on each side of the slide chamber.

             I'm getting a very small amount of fuel out of the one on the left side & I'm not exactly sure what that means. No fuel vapor out of the one on the right tells me they each have a different job. The exploded diagram gives me no clues.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on August 03, 2014, 01:11:48 pm
It's a vent.
The fuel vapor in the tube is most likely condensing on the tube wall.
I wouldn't worry about it.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on August 03, 2014, 02:24:25 pm
It's a vent.
The fuel vapor in the tube is most likely condensing on the tube wall.
I wouldn't worry about it.

              Hokay  :)(http://)
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: High On Octane on August 03, 2014, 02:44:04 pm
Glad you have it all tuned up and running well.  But it sucks that your body isn't allowing you to enjoy the reward.  I'm getting close to 40 years old and some days my back doesn't even like sitting in the car let alone ride my bike, so I feel your pain.  Well, my pain anyways.   ;)

Scottie J
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 28, 2016, 04:49:39 pm
What ever happened to this bike?  Ive been super interested in this ever since it got done. being a sparkplug 20 something year old ive been in and outa trouble on top of being a college kid, so i havent been able to do it.  hopefully i will get my avl done this coming spring summer.

did this bike ever get dyno'ed or top speed?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 28, 2016, 05:49:10 pm
What ever happened to this bike?  Ive been super interested in this ever since it got done. being a sparkplug 20 something year old ive been in and outa trouble on top of being a college kid, so i havent been able to do it.  hopefully i will get my avl done this coming spring summer.

did this bike ever get dyno'ed or top speed?

             I still have the bike, Armando. I'll probably die flopping around on the garage floor after just kick starting it. Hope it doesn't seize up before somebody finds me   ;)(http://)

             I'll write again later today. I just lost everything I wrote (almost an hour) because my two pictures were too large and rather than allow me to resize them and reattach them, the whole post gets deleted :o >:(  >:(
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 29, 2016, 12:31:34 am
The anticipation....
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on January 29, 2016, 01:26:37 am
ive followed this thread as well for a while  and it has provided me with inspiration. Actually, mine is ripped apart and the head is with Ace for some fireball magic.  Got lots of plans... we'll see how far i get  ;D
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 29, 2016, 01:38:55 am
you have an AVL head in for fireball'ing?
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: DanB on January 29, 2016, 02:30:41 am
Yeah!  Pretty much doing the same as 2CV with maybe a decomp added to the head. Also pulled that estarter and plan on replacing the rear shocks... Hate bouncing thru corners.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: armando_chavez on January 29, 2016, 03:30:12 am
haha they are a little bouncy especially going up the seaside heights bridge :)  i would like to do the same prob going to go to 535 as well. id like a reliable 75mph cruise bike top speed just over the ton.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: tooseevee on January 30, 2016, 01:32:43 am
What ever happened to this bike?  Ive been super interested in this ever since it got done. being a sparkplug 20 something year old ive been in and outa trouble on top of being a college kid, so i havent been able to do it.  hopefully i will get my avl done this coming spring summer.

did this bike ever get dyno'ed or top speed?

            I apologize, Armando. I just haven't been able to spend any time here.

            I had to do a bit more tweaking after I wrote Post #271 in August 2014. I did a bit the rest of the good weather of 2014 and again the first part of 2015's riding season. I looked back and found I didn't keep good notes so I can't comment on details; I think I went back to the 17.5 Pilot and it came good at 1.5 or 1.75 turns out on the Mixture Screw. I was also fouling NGK 8s very quickly and going to 9s (Ace's suggestion) totally solved that. Who knows  ???. The 9 looked gorgeous for the rest of the 2015 riding season and the bike has run perfect. It ran great before, but it would decide to permanently foul a plug on kickstarting so bad that that plug would NOT fire again. I proved this empirically three different times (by putting in a new plug and getting an instant start then putting the fouled (cleaned) plug back in and it would NOT fire).

            As I've said before, Ace's and Mondello's head work was worth every penny. I will never regret it. That plus the TM-32 with Ace's canister, the free flow empty Brit short bottle "silencer" and removal of all the PAV stuff and the hot tube from the header pipe has made it a totally different engine which I've talked about previously in other posts.     

        No, it's never been dynoed. Ace has already guesstimated at what the HP increase should be (it's in this thread somewhere) and I don't care enough to truck it to where I might find a dyno. There isn't one anywhere near where I live plus my Medicare won't cover it  ;)

        No, I've never cared to hold WOT in 5th long enough to find out top speed. The speedo can't be trusted anyway. I may still put a digital magnetic pickup mountain bike speedometer on it like the one I put on my shovel. They are incredibly accurate*. All I know is that it gets to 60 really quickly, smoothly and with no straining feeling in any gear. I've done 65 a few times for a mile or so; no pain no strain. It begs for more, but not from me  :((http://)  To be perfectly honest, I don't like the wind beating on me any more. I just wanted the engine to run the way it was meant to run and that's all I ever wanted. 

          BTW I use 97 octane with just a hint of MMO.

          The last mods were 7" headlight with black rims and black visor and black pilot light lens rims. I have to be careful now because boredom equals spend $$$ on bike (there's no more to do to the house) and if I buy one more piece of black powder coat I'll have to black out the whole bike or it will look silly. 

            * Here's what I'd REEEly like to put on it:

http://www.classicmotorworks.com/koso-tnt-digital-combination-speedometer-tachometer-for-bullets/

           and tires, but it's really silly the way I ride now.

            Here are a few pictures from I think September last year. I thought about that garage door for years and finally did it last Summer. Every panel will get a second coat next summer.
         
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: kayak65cuda on March 01, 2016, 05:46:24 am
Love it. I'm so glad I found this post. Ace, I'll plan on sending my head to you.

Question, if I want to maintain torque, should I stick with the stock cam? I'd like to cam upgrade but I don't want to lose torque. Sounds like 2CV has plenty. Also, he says he is running 97 +add. I do want to maintain pump gas (around here that's 92 octain). Thanks
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: ace.cafe on March 01, 2016, 12:12:53 pm
Love it. I'm so glad I found this post. Ace, I'll plan on sending my head to you.

Question, if I want to maintain torque, should I stick with the stock cam? I'd like to cam upgrade but I don't want to lose torque. Sounds like 2CV has plenty. Also, he says he is running 97 +add. I do want to maintain pump gas (around here that's 92 octain). Thanks

Don't worry about losing torque.
It will gain torque.
Title: Re: Tooseevee's AVL upgrade thread
Post by: Black Yak on February 06, 2022, 04:48:14 pm
Great little piece of info on the fouling of the spark plug, I nearly pulled a muscle trying to kickstart my  Electra x until i read this thread, new NGK BR9ES spark plug and she started first kick! Back on the road home! (Riding from Georgia to Ireland)