[Mad4Bullets]

Hello all,

My late-2014 C5 has 13k miles and overall is in fine fettle. I was out touring last weekend and noticed a slight lurch on deceleration. My initial thought was that the chain may be too slack.  I also felt an odd vibration at higher revs in 1st and 2nd gears, almost as if the front wheel wasn't running true. This seemed to disappear when I up-shifted and wasn't really noticeable at speeds above 30 MPH. I was also hearing some chain noise above the exhaust note. When I returned home I checked the chain tension and it was far too slack, so I took each side up one notch on the snails and that brought the chain tension back into spec. When I went out for a test ride the vibration was more noticeable. I rechecked the adjustments and all was correct. So this left me somewhat perplexed - my usual state I'm afraid. 

I've had some time to mull it over now and I got to thinking that my chain may be shot and in need of replacement. I took a closer look tonight and noticed that when I rotated the rear wheel by hand, there were chain links that were kinked and out of alignment. I did my best to straighten the links with a pliers but they were pretty stiff. The chain is cleaned and lubricated regularly with Maxima Chain Wax. The rear sprocket does show some wear, but I wouldn't consider the teeth to be hooked in any way. With the bike up on its center stand I started it and put it in 1st gear and at idle the the chain is bouncing all over the bloody place, both top and bottom. This wasn't at all what I expected. Is this normal? I still have to properly investigate the chain's alignment between the front and rear sprockets but I'll have to remove the chain guard to measure it properly.

Anyone have a similar experience they care to share for the greater good? And if it's time to replace the chain, should I order just the chain or should I spring for the complete chain, sprocket & drum kit?  I plan to replace my rear tire at the end of the season, and that would be a good time to change out any of the worn chain-drive components. Thanks very much everyone. I appreciate your help.

[GSS]

Looks like the chain is worn out. Get a good quality o-ring chain like Tsubaki, DID etc. No downside to replacing the sprockets, but get OEM (or from HCM if changing the sprocket sizes).

[AzCal Retred]

+1 to GSS.

Kinking means the link internal pins are shot, they are & galled or rusted. That chain is destroyed and is eating the sprockets. If your sprocket teeth still have good "shoulder", you can just replace the chain as an interim measure, knowing that in 3,000 - 6,000 miles you'll be replacing both sprockets and maybe the rear hub carrier bearing too. Shock loads from a flopping chain are hard on transmission & hub bearings, so don't run it that way. If the sprocket teeth are hooked or their tooth shoulder is noticeably worn away, the old sprockets will rapidly eat the new chain.

I would not run an interim O-ring chain, just get a cheap, reasonable quality unit to "finish out" the remaining sprocket life. Diamond, DID, Tsubaki or the like and a can of plain chain lube.

The reason the pins are shot is the issue here. O-ring chains don't stop "car wash" spray pressure, they'll let in water & dissolved salts, then block evaporation, promoting rusting/galling. Likewise lubrication has a hard time making it inside, past the O-rings. An "open" or old skool chain lets in water & dirt, but it also lets in lube. A regularly lubricated standard chain has a film of oil inside that gets replenished when you lube it, and some of the road grunge gets a chance to get flung out. Water likewise gets flung out when you are riding, so it's less of an issue. O-ring chains tend to have just whatever lube was in there from the factory, rather like a zerc-less sealed ball joint. O-ring chains are a good tool, but any kind of pressure washing is lethal to them. The tell-tale red dust wisping out of a high-dollar O-ring chains inner plates, past the O-rings is a sad sight indeed. Another reason for chain demise is excessive fastidiousness. There's a certain amount of mung & drool associated with a properly lubricated exposed drive chain, thus the existence of the chain guard. Better to wipe off a layer of grunge from the rear rim from time to time than suffer a dry chain.

A new set of sprockets can usually wear out two drive chains. The C5 UCE's front sprocket is easy to change out compared to the Pre-Unit. If you started out with a new set of steel OEM or better sprockets & two chains, that would be optimal, just change out the chains every few thousand miles. Pop off the master link & use the dirty chain to pull in the clean chain, adjust tension and you are done. You'd probably be looking at a 20,000 - 30,000 mile component service life from such a scheme.

[axman88]

Hello all,

My late-2014 C5 has 13k miles and overall is in fine fettle. I was out touring last weekend and noticed a slight lurch on deceleration. My initial thought was that the chain may be too slack.  I also felt an odd vibration at higher revs in 1st and 2nd gears, almost as if the front wheel wasn't running true. This seemed to disappear when I up-shifted and wasn't really noticeable at speeds above 30 MPH. I was also hearing some chain noise above the exhaust note. When I returned home I checked the chain tension and it was far too slack, so I took each side up one notch on the snails and that brought the chain tension back into spec. When I went out for a test ride the vibration was more noticeable. I rechecked the adjustments and all was correct. So this left me somewhat perplexed - my usual state I'm afraid. 

I've had some time to mull it over now and I got to thinking that my chain may be shot and in need of replacement. I took a closer look tonight and noticed that when I rotated the rear wheel by hand, there were chain links that were kinked and out of alignment. I did my best to straighten the links with a pliers but they were pretty stiff. The chain is cleaned and lubricated regularly with Maxima Chain Wax. The rear sprocket does show some wear, but I wouldn't consider the teeth to be hooked in any way. With the bike up on its center stand I started it and put it in 1st gear and at idle the the chain is bouncing all over the bloody place, both top and bottom. This wasn't at all what I expected. Is this normal? I still have to properly investigate the chain's alignment between the front and rear sprockets but I'll have to remove the chain guard to measure it properly.

Anyone have a similar experience they care to share for the greater good? And if it's time to replace the chain, should I order just the chain or should I spring for the complete chain, sprocket & drum kit?  I plan to replace my rear tire at the end of the season, and that would be a good time to change out any of the worn chain-drive components. Thanks very much everyone. I appreciate your help.

The Rolon O-ring chain that came on my 2011 built C5 was acting like that, it had stiff links that created lumpy rotation, although I don't think it was as bad as what you describe.  I only had about 6500 miles on the bike total, the chain showed no stretch I could discern, and the sprockets had very little wear.

I treated that Rolon like an old fashioned non O-ring chain, ... removed it, soaked it overnight in kerosene, and cleaned it well.  I hosed it down with a good penetrating oil with anti-rust component, let it sit a while, then I gave it another overnight soak, this time in 30 weight engine oil, before wiping it down and reinstalling.

I was told on this forum, after the fact, that it's a bad idea to soak an O-ring chain, although no explanation of WHY it is bad was offered.  Nevertheless, the treatment certainly seemed to work, the chain became quite smooth running.

[Nitrowing]

I always used to fit a Scottoiler (or similar) which gave great chain life.
If you don't like this sort of gadget then you're crazy then always spray your chain with lube after your ride - the reasoning is that as your chain cools down it will draw the lube into it's nooks and crannies.

[Mad4Bullets]

Thanks very much for the responses. I now have a proper plan in the works. The chain at the very least will be replaced, if not the sprockets and drum. I just need to do a closer inspection of the sprocket teeth. Help is on the way.

[Mad4Bullets]

I'd been out of motorcycling for many years and had never heard of an O-ring chain until I bought my C5, and to be honest the majority of the comments I've read about them have not been complimentary. My bike only comes out on blue sky days and is ridden on well-maintained secondary roads. So all things considered, I decided to follow the advice of AzCal Retred and finish out the lifespan of the sprockets with a DID 350 x 102 standard chain. No pesky O-rings to fuss with, just a smooth-running, old-fashioned chain for a not so smooth-running old-fashioned guy.  If this chain is good enough for Singh5g, it's certainly good enough for me. Thanks again everyone.

[MannP]

I have used DID chains on a number of previous bikes and have always been impressed with them

[johno]

I fitted a DID 530NZ chain after a Reynolds chain, bought from Hitchcocks, snapped in several places with less than 1000 miles on it (I did get a refund)This might have been a one off, but put me off those chains. The DID chain is quite substantial and is perfect for the Bullet. I suggested to them that Hitchcock might want to stock DID chains, but seems they have stuck Reynolds....

[axman88]

I have decided to stop playing games involving X's and O's and return to the basics with my chain driven bikes.

I just found a pair of NOS EK (Enuma chain company, Kaga, Japan)  525 chains for my Honda VT600C, which is overdue for a chain replacement.  These were attractively priced at qty 2 chains for $30, new old stock in box.

I've also found a source that is offering standard 530 chains, new old stock in box for $9.95 ea.  These are from a European company that has been making chains for over 100 years.

My strategy is going to be to obtain two identical chains for each machine, lube every 300 miles or so, as I have been doing, but also swap one for the other every 1200 miles, at which point the dirty chain will be treated to a thorough cleaning and hot lube treatment.  This is, on average, at least 6 months to a year of my riding a given machine.

My belief is that this approach will result in chain lives that match and may well exceed the lifetimes of X's and O's.  After spending a career as a design engineer, I think I know a little about how manufacturers claims and testing work.  I wouldn't be surprised if, when comparing expected service lives of their X's and O's to standard chains in testing, manufacturers treat all chains to the same identical lack of lubrication.  The X's and O's retain lubricant, until they don't, but also prevent lubricant from entering, unless one takes extraordinary measures.

Notwithstanding the additional maintenance required, I prefer to have the lubrication under my control, not in the hands of the factory pre-lube process.  I work in a factory, I see what happens.

[MannP]

All good points axman

[Bilgemaster]

All good points axman

+2 on that. The "Chain Swapping" technique you describe is precisely how conscientious riders of yore were supposed to do it. Are you planning on using the big old school tin of stovetop Putoline described in this old thread here?: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30792.msg368178#msg368178 (with my own postride gear oil swabbing regimen and "equipment" described earlier in that thread).

Also, would you care to share that source for the $9.95 chains you mention, and let us know how you get along with them? I may be having some success with my own single-chain technique, but I also know I might do well to sock a pair of chains away for "later" to do it properly.

[axman88]

+2 on that. The "Chain Swapping" technique you describe is precisely how conscientious riders of yore were supposed to do it. Are you planning on using the big old school tin of stovetop Putoline described in this old thread here?: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=30792.msg368178#msg368178 (with my own postride gear oil swabbing regimen and "equipment" described earlier in that thread).

Also, would you care the share that source for the $9.95 chains you mention, and let us know how you get along with them? I may be having some success with my own single-chain technique, but I also know I might do well to sock a pair of chains away for "later" to do it properly.

Yes, the pan of hot grease is what I'm thinking.  I haven't decided what grease I'll be using yet, gonna see what possibilities exist.

I found inexpensive NOS chains from BMIKarts & Parts, in Versailles, Ohio.  https://www.bmikarts.com/Vintage-Motorcycle-Parts  I've bought from them before, some silencers via Ebay, and was pretty happy with the quality and the price was amazing.  They apparently buy up old stocks and sell them, at very friendly prices.

I was wrong about the price though.  The 530, 104 link chains that were originally intended for use on Harley XLs, 50 years ago, were $5.00 each.  Shortened suitably, I think that these will work great on my C5 UCE, on my '70 CB 450, when that someday comes back from the basket, and with the 1/2 link that BMIKarts also sells, on my '99 RE IB too.  Maybe you will want to spread the word to the IB crew?  I could see our IB guys as being receptive to standard chain, and not put off by the idea of knocking off a few links.

Regina is an Italian chain maker that has been making link chains a long long time.  https://www.reginachain.net/
I anticipate these NOS chains to be decent to good quality, made of hard, carbon steel.

BMI is also selling some Takasago ( RK & TK ) chains, and some from TIDC who I understand made the "Saphire" and "Diamond Super" brands.   https://www.tidcindia.in/Diamond_AC_AutomobileDriveChains.html   I read that TIDC had some technical direction from Diamond Chain company back in the 1960s, but I don't know if there is an ongoing relationship.  I consider Diamond (USA) to make a top quality product, and it's a shame that TIDC is able to market their products with the diamond logo.  I think this has really diluted the perception of quality associated with Diamond.  A TIDC "Diamond India" marked chain came installed on my '99 IB.  I think that was the OEM equipment.  It's decent quality, but not equal to the US product, in my opinion.   BMIKarts is also selling what looks to me to be NOS, USA made Diamond chains.

The Regina chains are most attractively priced.  Imagine what BMIKarts must have purchased them for, if they can make a profit selling NOS chains for $5.  That's 1950s pricing!  If someone is interested, I'd suggest acting now.  BMIKarts is a closeout kind of vendor.  Sale priced stuff sells fast.

One thing that non-Oring chains can definitely do better than O-ring chains, no contest, is sit in a box on a shelf for decades.   This source says Acrylonitrile-butadiene, (which is the material most used for many, if not most chain O-rings, has a suggested shelf life of 5-10 years.  https://warco.com/resources/storage-conditions-shelf-life/  If they can only be expected to last that long on a shelf, what can we expect if they are exposed to the elements that attack them.  According to that same source, those elements include "Ketones, Ozone, Sunlight, Aromatic Oil, Flame, Weather". 

[AzCal Retred]

Chain rotation is an old & venerable stratagem. H's still carry Putoline for the full experience. I think a clever guy could use a BBQ rotisserie motor and old sprocket to create a self cleaning rotary solvent dip for the dirty chain you just removed. Or just scrub it a bit with a toothbrush in a shallow pan of your favorite solvent. Sometimes the old ways are best. - ACR -


https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/chain-and-chainguards/21780PART No. 98376
CHAIN SOAK, PUTOLINE ; £29.75
Use Putoline chain wax to help prolong the life of your chain - boil your chain as in the good old days. Chain Wax is a traditional treatment for the lubrication of non O-ring chains.
When heated on a stove, the special Chain Wax with Graphite additive will melt and will clean and lubricate the non O-Ring chain. and will penetrate deep into the chain far exceeding normal spray lubricants

[axman88]

Chain rotation is an old & venerable stratagem. H's still carry Putoline for the full experience. I think a clever guy could use a BBQ rotisserie motor and old sprocket to create a self cleaning rotary solvent dip for the dirty chain you just removed. Or just scrub it a bit with a toothbrush in a shallow pan of your favorite solvent. Sometimes the old ways are best.

I'm thinking that the heated ultrasonic bath I got last year to take over the task of cleaning the modern carbs with internal plastic bits, is going to get a shot at this job.  I saw a video recently where the presenter was extolling the virtues of a "bath within a bath" approach.  The nastier, flammable solvent, went inside an inner jar with the parts, and that jar went into his ultrasonic bath with plain water in it.  It occurred to me that the plastic will absorb some of the energy, but the guy in the video was enthusiastic.  He could clean his brass ammo casings, his carburetor, and his dentures, all at the same time.