[ideola]

And so, it begins.

[gizzo]

Hey my dog has that same blanket!


Plus, looks like a project. Nice.

[RalphG]

Oh, come on, Ideola; you're among friends...what are you up to? 

It's okay to confide in us  We promise not to tell anyone.

Ralph

[NVDucati]

Oh, come on, Ideola; you're among friends...what are you up to? 

It's okay to confide in us  We promise not to tell anyone.

Ralph

"Every picture tells a story, don't it"

[ideola]

Oh, come on, Ideola; you're among friends...what are you up to? 

It's okay to confide in us  We promise not to tell anyone.

Ralph

Hitchcocks 865 big bore kit
Hitchcocks performance clutch
Hitchcocks Stage 1 Cam + shims
Hitchcocks DynoJet ECM
Motone headlight brackets, front turn indicators and fork mounts, rear indicators and shock mounts, tail lamp
Zard High Side 2-into-1 exhaust
Design Engineering Titanium Exhaust Heat Wrap
Autologue Reck 2.1 Cafe Racer body kit currently in transit

Dr Mayhem CGT shall be transformed into a true Cafe Racer.
MLG = Made Like a Gun
Colour Key: British Racing Green with titanium, burnished brass, and tobacco-stained leather embellishments

[RalphG]

All RIGHT!  Now you've whetted our appetites.  Please keep us posted (with photos) as your very ambitious project comes together. 

Ralph

[ideola]

With the Baker Express tank now installed on the Interceptor, I've removed the CGT tank for ... experimentation ... and temporarily replaced it with the Silver Specter tank.

Tank swap is a piece of cake, although as noted elsewhere, brake control will contact the RHS of the Interceptor tank at full right lock.

Mo.View Spy bar end mirrors installed.
Motone Customs indicator and tail tidy project completed.
Motone Customs helmet lock installed.
Temporarily installed some cheap Chinese control levers (copies of the TECs), which will later be replaced with the TWM lever, Brembo master cylinder, and Rizoma reservoir.

Next stop: powder coaters.

In the meantime, impatiently awaiting the arrival of replacement side panels so I can do some experimentation with a cold air intake.

[deepfreak15]

Hitchcocks 865 big bore kit
Hitchcocks performance clutch
Hitchcocks Stage 1 Cam + shims
Hitchcocks DynoJet ECM
Motone headlight brackets, front turn indicators and fork mounts, rear indicators and shock mounts, tail lamp
Zard High Side 2-into-1 exhaust
Design Engineering Titanium Exhaust Heat Wrap
Autologue Reck 2.1 Cafe Racer body kit currently in transit.......

  Be still my beating heart! That picture is totally drool worthy. Just cant wait to see it all put together and come to life. Curious though, wouldnt the 2-in-1 exhaust clash with the cafe look and riding posture? I always thought that was a scrambler set up.

[ideola]

Curious though, wouldnt the 2-in-1 exhaust clash with the cafe look and riding posture? I always thought that was a scrambler set up.

High side exhausts are not as commonly seen on "cafe" styled bikes, but they are out there (see photos). I think it will look nice. I'm not really going for a specific "tribute" build, or trying to recreate any particular era. It's just my take on a combination of mods that I think may look nice and perform well in totality.

That said, if it ends up looking bad, I'll just swap the exhausts between the Interceptor and Continental. I have a TEC big bore kit coming back from Jet-Hot for the INT.

[ideola]

Here's a few more cafe-ish bikes with high side exhausts. That Honda CB350 is hawt...

[Shifty1969]

That sounds awesome, can’t wait to hear about it finished!

[ideola]

Prototyping the cold air intake.

[lucky phil]

So your cold air intake is inducting straight from the airflow that's come off the l/h cylinder and head? More like warm air induction from what I can see.

Ciao

[ideola]

1. not done yet
2. where do you think the stock set up gets it's air? 

[Hoiho]

Turbo that thang!

[lucky phil]

1. not done yet
2. where do you think the stock set up gets it's air? 

With a rearward opening the stock setup make the best of an ordinary airflow situation and at least makes the flow off the cylinders and head turn 180 degrees to enter the intake, so it manages to source at least a significant amount of flow from the general mixed air around the under seat and rear wheel area. Not ideal but its the packaging limitations. Your design at present goes out of it's way to scoop as much hot air off the cylinder and head as it can get.
I'll be interested to see how you deal with this. In general I'm not really a huge fan of these filter and airbox mods I've seen so far.

Ciao   

[NVDucati]

Turbo that thang!

Yes Siree! I've been waiting for someone to do this. While I don't think I'll do that ... I'd love to know the details.
Wadda ya know about it Hoiho?

[lucky phil]

Yes Siree! I've been waiting for someone to do this. While I don't think I'll do that ... I'd love to know the details.
Wadda ya know about it Hoiho?

I'd love to know the details of why you'd mount the rear shocks inverted so the heaviest part of the shock now contribute to the un-sprung weight and makes adjustments a PITA before I'd wonder about the utility of a turbo charger.

Ciao

[fireypete]

Still, I'd love to have a go!  Stopping may prove a challenge...

[Hoiho]

Yes Siree! I've been waiting for someone to do this. While I don't think I'll do that ... I'd love to know the details.
Wadda ya know about it Hoiho?

It's Gizzo's pic from the DGR thread remember? It's as though the owner wanted something a bit different & asked himself 'what would Alan Millyard do?'

Pretty sure the upside down shocks are a deliberate distraction

[gizzo]

The shocks on the 535 come mounted that way. They can be flipped around if it bothers you..

The turbo GT is a local bike, been around for a while but you never see it out except for events. I don't think it's ever been around a corner, going by the tyre wear and the way they're OK with the dump pipe hanging down like that. To each their own. Looks pretty cool though.

[NVDucati]

I'd love to know the details of why you'd mount the rear shocks inverted so the heaviest part of the shock now contribute to the un-sprung weight ...

Curious, are rear shocks unsprung weight on the compression or rebound stroke? 

[lucky phil]

The shocks on the 535 come mounted that way. They can be flipped around if it bothers you..

The turbo GT is a local bike, been around for a while but you never see it out except for events. I don't think it's ever been around a corner, going by the tyre wear and the way they're OK with the dump pipe hanging down like that. To each their own. Looks pretty cool though.

Really? That's really, well Indian I guess.

Ciao

[gizzo]

Really? That's really, well Indian I guess.

Ciao

In a "want to be like the cool kids but don't really understand what I'm doing" kind of way? Agree.

[ideola]

With a rearward opening the stock setup make the best of an ordinary airflow situation and at least makes the flow off the cylinders and head turn 180 degrees to enter the intake, so it manages to source at least a significant amount of flow from the general mixed air around the under seat and rear wheel area. Not ideal but its the packaging limitations.

The stock air filter cover is hugely restrictive. The opening is less than 3 sq in, and it forces the machine to pull air around a 180°, then make another 90° turn into the filter, which it must suck through a tiny triangle opening that is even smaller than the opening on the stock air filter element. Breathing is the most fundamental aspect of making an engine (air pump) perform. It's not hard to understand why the DNA filter is such a vast improvement over the OEM setup.

Your design at present goes out of it's way to scoop as much hot air off the cylinder and head as it can get. I'll be interested to see how you deal with this. In general I'm not really a huge fan of these filter and airbox mods I've seen so far.

With the OEM design, there is nothing to block any of the heated air coming off the head and cylinder fins from passing directly into the airbox area behind the plastic cover. There is a large vertical opening (about 8" high and about 1" wide) between the frame and the airbox, so the engine is already sucking in the heated air coming off the motor, and it's having to work much harder than necessary to get it.

The scoop I am designing around has more than DOUBLE the frontal area of the stock setup. I've already devised a method of directing the air straight into the DNA filter, so it will be "rammed" in by the forward motion, and it will only have to make a 90° turn. The final piece will be to divise a heat shield on the that side of the motor that will still allow air to pass over the engine cooling fins while preventing most of it from being sucked into the scoop. The fun part will be making it look halfway decent.

[NVDucati]

The stock air filter cover is hugely restrictive. The opening is less than 3 sq in, and it forces the machine to pull air around a 180°, then make another 90° turn into the filter, which it must suck through a tiny triangle opening that is even smaller than the opening on the stock air filter element. Breathing is the most fundamental aspect of making an engine (air pump) perform. It's not hard to understand why the DNA filter is such a vast improvement over the OEM setup.
With the OEM design, there is nothing to block any of the heated air coming off the head and cylinder fins from passing directly into the airbox area behind the plastic cover. There is a large vertical opening (about 8" high and about 1" wide) between the frame and the airbox, so the engine is already sucking in the heated air coming off the motor, and it's having to work much harder than necessary to get it.

The scoop I am designing around has more than DOUBLE the frontal area of the stock setup. I've already devised a method of directing the air straight into the DNA filter, so it will be "rammed" in by the forward motion, and it will only have to make a 90° turn. The final piece will be to divise a heat shield on the that side of the motor that will still allow air to pass over the engine cooling fins while preventing most of it from being sucked into the scoop. The fun part will be making it look halfway decent.

I think you are on the right track.
I have been contemplating using the "tunnel" formed by the bottom of the gas tank to capture ambient air above the oil cooler and deliver it to just aft of the left side throttle body and in front of your scoop. Beyond the obvious benefit of cooler intake air it also defends the temperature of the fuel from engine heat.

[ideola]

I have been contemplating using the "tunnel" formed by the bottom of the gas tank to capture ambient air above the oil cooler and deliver it to just aft of the left side throttle body and in front of your scoop. Beyond the obvious benefit of cooler intake air it also defends the temperature of the fuel from engine heat.

This is a great idea as well. I hope to develop my simpler design soon, but I may come back to this idea over the winter while the tank is off and engine is out.

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

With all due respect, that's all well and good. But I can't help feeling like you good gents have kinda forgotten that your leg sits perfectly between the cylinder and the air intake.

And from what I remember about fluid dynamics and laminar vs turbulent flow, no ram-air function is ever going to happen with that setup and the rider's legs in the riding position. Unless, the intake literally sticks out about a good 30cms or so. I like NVD's idea better, and I'd still be skeptical about it because of technical reasons related to the tune of the rest of the bike.

The stock setup is more than sufficient IMO, for the state of tune that the twins are at. Besides, the cold-air intakes people are talking about,in this setup or even in the big bore kit, will probably only result in a few percentage points increase in the static air pressure, not really significant unless you do a whole bunch of changes to how the engine breathes- like removing the airbox completely and having a really big and unobstructed intake (to the airfront moving across the bike front to rear as it moves). See the ram-air intake on a zx-12r, or a Harley with a gooseneck turbo, or most muscle cars to be fair. Big point is that, the 650 twins even if bored out to the 838 or something kit, aren't what one would call 'performance' machines. Hence, it seems like too much effort and overthinking into something that doesn't quite benefit from it.

But then again, I'm also not a trained greasemonkey. Just my $0.02.


 

The stock air filter cover is hugely restrictive. The opening is less than 3 sq in, and it forces the machine to pull air around a 180°, then make another 90° turn into the filter, which it must suck through a tiny triangle opening that is even smaller than the opening on the stock air filter element. Breathing is the most fundamental aspect of making an engine (air pump) perform. It's not hard to understand why the DNA filter is such a vast improvement over the OEM setup.
With the OEM design, there is nothing to block any of the heated air coming off the head and cylinder fins from passing directly into the airbox area behind the plastic cover. There is a large vertical opening (about 8" high and about 1" wide) between the frame and the airbox, so the engine is already sucking in the heated air coming off the motor, and it's having to work much harder than necessary to get it.

The scoop I am designing around has more than DOUBLE the frontal area of the stock setup. I've already devised a method of directing the air straight into the DNA filter, so it will be "rammed" in by the forward motion, and it will only have to make a 90° turn. The final piece will be to divise a heat shield on the that side of the motor that will still allow air to pass over the engine cooling fins while preventing most of it from being sucked into the scoop. The fun part will be making it look halfway decent.

[Starpeve]

There’s a lot of interesting earlier posting about the tuning of the air box, it being a ‘Hemholz’ ( I think)
chamber, and the detrimental effect on
 the engine’s performance by any alteration of it. I was all for putting pod filters on , and chucking the air box completely but apparently you lose torque through most of the usable rev range by doing that.

[ideola]

With all due respect, that's all well and good. But I can't help feeling like you good gents have kinda forgotten that your leg sits perfectly between the cylinder and the air intake.

There's more room there than you think.


I've already checked that while seated on the bike; the rider's calf is not going to be pressed flush with the contour of the bike under the seat, even with knees tucked into the tank, mainly because of the position of the footpeg. It will not block the void behind the engine and in front of where I have the scoop. Even if it did, it would have the benefit of blocking the hot air lucky phil was worried about; regardless, this setup will still be way more efficient in that orientation than the OEM setup, even if there is minimal ram effect.

Also, not sure if you've perused the whole thread, but be mindful that I am doing the 865 big bore kit on this bike, so this is a mod to milk as many improvements as possible, small improvements though they may be, that should amplify the overall effect.

For me, it's not about "is it worth it". I don't really give a damn about worth. I paid cash for both bikes, and will spend that money again on mods before I finish them both. What I enjoy is the intellectual pursuit, the problem solving, working with my hands, making the bike completely unique and different from what anyone else has. If nothing else, the scoop will look badass. In my opinion. 

[ideola]

There’s a lot of interesting earlier posting about the tuning of the air box, it being a ‘Hemholz’ ( I think)
chamber, and the detrimental effect on
 the engine’s performance by any alteration of it. I was all for putting pod filters on , and chucking the air box completely but apparently you lose torque through most of the usable rev range by doing that.

Helmholtz resonance is definitely a thing, particular on naturally aspirated engines. It's a bit less of an issue with forced induction because the boosted air typically overpowers any benefit of the synchronized pulses in a well-tuned naturally aspirated intake / runner setup. I wouldn't touch the airbox itself. But getting air into it is a different matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_resonance

[Hoiho]

The stock air filter cover is hugely restrictive. The opening is less than 3 sq in, and it forces the machine to pull air around a 180°, then make another 90° turn into the filter, which it must suck through a tiny triangle opening that is even smaller than the opening on the stock air filter element. Breathing is the most fundamental aspect of making an engine (air pump) perform. It's not hard to understand why the DNA filter is such a vast improvement over the OEM setup.

On the other hand there are multiple folk who have tried DNA filters and bell-mouth intakes and found next to zero performance improvement, just an annoying intake honk.  As Jack says, stock is trick 

[zimmemr]

On the other hand there are multiple folk who have tried DNA filters and bell-mouth intakes and found next to zero performance improvement, just an annoying intake honk.  As Jack says, stock is trick 

+1 and then some.

[ideola]

On the other hand there are multiple folk who have tried DNA filters and bell-mouth intakes and found next to zero performance improvement, just an annoying intake honk.  As Jack says, stock is trick 

I'm not using a bell-mouth, and I don't know Jack_{this is a freebie}.

As Ideola sez, stock is boring. 

[Starpeve]

On the other hand there are multiple folk who have tried DNA filters and bell-mouth intakes and found next to zero performance improvement, just an annoying intake honk.  As Jack says, stock is trick 

Bell mouths are great if you’re wringing it’s neck. Lose power under high revs.
Probably first thing you’d do if it was solely for track.
Pity, the bike would look cracking with a couple of bird catchers on it!

[lucky phil]

This will obviously be a point of debate for ever as it was 25 years ago but one thing that's not up for debate is the value of "ram effect"
The last data I read on ram effect was it was worth around 1/4 psi at 175mph. In other words irrelevant to anything less than a WSB or Motogp bike. This has been well documented for at least 25 years when people thought it was free horsepower back in the 90's. Dynamic pressure doesn't convert to static pressure as might seem intuitive. That pressure you feel on your hand when you lift it off the bars at 60mph translates to 2/5ths of SFA static pressure. very old data/news.
So why do they do it on race cars/bikes? The primary reason is to direct cool laminar air to the throttle bodies. The small secondary benefit is ram effect at very high speeds which when you're looking for every stray horsepower is a nice side benefit that helps defer the duct losses and drag from the ducting with hopefully a little left over.
On a road bike, even a modern hyper bike ram effect is irrelevant unless your on an airstrip doing top speed runs, and even then it's overall advantage gains and losses wise is debateable. You are simply never going fast enough for it to create significant static pressure on a road bike. A MotoGP bike top speed 360kph? well then it's entering the realms of a calculable advantage.   

Ciao     

[lucky phil]

Bell mouths are great if you’re wringing it’s neck. Lose power under high revs.
Probably first thing you’d do if it was solely for track.
Pity, the bike would look cracking with a couple of bird catchers on it!

People in the Guzzi world fall for this all the time. Remove the airbox and fit pod filters. Lose the airbox resonant tuning and mess up the fuelling. People applying backyard logic to complex systems.

Ciao

[Starpeve]

This will obviously be a point of debate for ever as it was 25 years ago but one thing that's not up for debate is the value of "ram effect"
The last data I read on ram effect was it was worth around 1/4 psi at 175mph. In other words irrelevant to anything less than a WSB or Motogp bike. This has been well documented for at least 25 years when people thought it was free horsepower back in the 90's. Dynamic pressure doesn't convert to static pressure as might seem intuitive. That pressure you feel on your hand when you lift it off the bars at 60mph translates to 2/5ths of SFA static pressure. very old data/news.
So why do they do it on race cars/bikes? The primary reason is to direct cool laminar air to the throttle bodies. The small secondary benefit is ram effect at very high speeds which when you're looking for every stray horsepower is a nice side benefit that helps defer the duct losses and drag from the ducting with hopefully a little left over.
On a road bike, even a modern hyper bike ram effect is irrelevant unless your on an airstrip doing top speed runs, and even then it's overall advantage gains and losses wise is debateable. You are simply never going fast enough for it to create significant static pressure on a road bike. A MotoGP bike top speed 360kph? well then it's entering the realms of a calculable advantage.   

Ciao   

You’ve obviously never watched the’Bugs Bunny’ show. I’ll bet Wile E Coyote could come up with an ‘Acme’ product to disprove you!

[lucky phil]

You’ve obviously never watched the’Bugs Bunny’ show. I’ll bet Wile E Coyote could come up with an ‘Acme’ product to disprove you!

Without a doubt. I think he posts here actually 

Ciao

[gizzo]

If nothing else, the scoop will look badass. In my opinion. 

Sometimes that is the most important consideration. Pipewrap FTW! 

[NVDucati]

...
The last data I read on ram effect was it was worth around 1/4 psi at 175mph. In other words irrelevant to anything...
This has been well documented for at least 25 years ...
Ciao   

Thanks for that. I have no interest in debating the un-debatable.
However, I am curious if that 1/4psi is with the intake valves closed or open? And I guess I don't recall if the flow benches of 25 years ago measured entrainment. Obviously, I'm "Yank"ing your chain a little, but seriously I do appreciate your depth of understanding about a lot of these things. Keep on sharing.

[lucky phil]

Thanks for that. I have no interest in debating the un-debatable.
However, I am curious if that 1/4psi is with the intake valves closed or open? And I guess I don't recall if the flow benches of 25 years ago measured entrainment. Obviously, I'm "Yank"ing your chain a little, but seriously I do appreciate your depth of understanding about a lot of these things. Keep on sharing.

That's without any engine influence at all just measuring a sealed airbox against airflow. That's the objective for me, sharing knowledge and experiences.

ciao

[NVDucati]

That's without any engine influence at all just measuring a sealed airbox against airflow. That's the objective for me, sharing knowledge and experiences.

ciao

Thanks that what I suspected, sealed box, as opposed to cubic inches of flow.

[ideola]

All of this to say, that's why I initially called it a cold air induction. I regret having introduced the word "ram" into the dialog. But there is no arguing the fact that drawing air from a high pressure zone (forward facing scoop) rather than from a low pressure (backward facing inlet) will improve the efficiency of the air pump. It may not have a measurable impact on peak power, but it does make the engine more efficient. And cooler air DOES make more power.

[LAcaferacer]

Hey Ideola-

To re-introduce the initial point of the post, I want to say congratulations on doing a project many of us think about in our minds, but in real life. I am looking forward to your posts about all the mods, and the successes and failures of them. 

If I lived near you, I'd want to be your friend with your cool garage, interesting style and ambitions in life. Go forth, and keep us updated on the journey!

[ideola]

Hey Ideola-

To re-introduce the initial point of the post, I want to say congratulations on doing a project many of us think about in our minds, but in real life. I am looking forward to your posts about all the mods, and the successes and failures of them. 

If I lived near you, I'd want to be your friend with your cool garage, interesting style and ambitions in life. Go forth, and keep us updated on the journey!

Thank you for the kind words!

One of these days, we may just host a drive-in to Ideola's Garage..........

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

That gap you speak of, isn't all that much. And when you introduce something like a leg in there, (you leg isn't pointy in profile) there is going to be turbulent flow from that, and the air buffeting off the engine. That's not going to direct much laminar flow of cold air into your intake scoop, if at all any. So, I feel like you're missing the point here by some ways.

To be able to draw air in via the intake, one would need either a forced laminar flow, or a relatively static volume for suction to work. The latter, as you can imagine, is achieved by the airbox, which in itself is a tuned box as you already know. You do want to tinkering and intellectual pursuit and whatnot, and I don't want to be a spoilsport. But without wind tunnel testing and careful calculations, you're just shooting in the dark with questionable logic. Sorry dude, fluid dynamics doesn't work the way you want it to. Science and engineering can be quite counter-intuitive.

And this is all without accounting for the road speeds and pressure differences needed for these physical effects to take place.

See these videos for some insight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ3DVLfORXk (cool soundtrack on this one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7eSiIOQ02g

I can't help thinking of something one of my engineer friends once told me- The Bearded Hillbilly's First Law of Mechanical Intervention, it being:

- "any mechanical intervention that results in a success shall be regarded as a victory regardless of whether it arises from knowledgeable action, an accident, ignorance or even negligence. This being because had I not caused said results by my touching the affected machine any successful results could not gave been achieved, however accidental."


But, all power to you my friend. You do you. I just feel it's wasted effort into something that can be understood by the experience of others. No point re-inventing the wheel now, is there?

There's more room there than you think.


I've already checked that while seated on the bike; the rider's calf is not going to be pressed flush with the contour of the bike under the seat, even with knees tucked into the tank, mainly because of the position of the footpeg. It will not block the void behind the engine and in front of where I have the scoop. Even if it did, it would have the benefit of blocking the hot air lucky phil was worried about; regardless, this setup will still be way more efficient in that orientation than the OEM setup, even if there is minimal ram effect.

Also, not sure if you've perused the whole thread, but be mindful that I am doing the 865 big bore kit on this bike, so this is a mod to milk as many improvements as possible, small improvements though they may be, that should amplify the overall effect.

For me, it's not about "is it worth it". I don't really give a damn about worth. I paid cash for both bikes, and will spend that money again on mods before I finish them both. What I enjoy is the intellectual pursuit, the problem solving, working with my hands, making the bike completely unique and different from what anyone else has. If nothing else, the scoop will look badass. In my opinion. 

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

For me, it's not about "is it worth it". I don't really give a damn about worth.

I just can't help this. Maybe caring about worth is a good idea. Not the cost. Cost Vs Worth is a central argument everywhere, don't you think?

the scoop will look badass. In my opinion.

Well, the scoop needs to have a huge cross-sectional area for it to work as an intake. And also positioned in a way that it receives unobstructed airflow. Maybe that's the reason all those engineers over the years have put it in front and not to the side! Also note the sizes....

That's it, I'm done. This is another exercise in overthinking.

[ideola]

This ain't my first rodeo.
Not by a long shot.

without wind tunnel testing and careful calculations, you're just shooting in the dark with questionable logic

LOL, "dude", and so are you!

You could be right, in part or in whole. Then again, growing up in Detroit hot-rod culture and building a 20-year side-business developing performance mods for the much-maligned Porsche 924/931 series, I've seen enough bone-headed designs come out of OEMs because the accountants got involved to know there's always room for experimentation and improvement. The idea that "the factory didn't do it so it must not be a good idea" has been debunked more times than I can count.

I'm used to the naysayers, negative nancys, and armchair engineers. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks is a waste of time or worthwhile pursuit. I'm just gonna do what I do and enjoy my hobby.

Cheers! 

[Hoiho]

Don't be put off - we are enjoying the ride. Not many folk have the luxury of budget and time to do what you do.

[ideola]

Don't be put off - we are enjoying the ride. Not many folk have the luxury of budget and time to do what you do.

Thank you...the more people tell me it can't or shan't be done, the more determined I am to do it 

Speaking of laminar flow...it's a naked bike, after all, and there ain't much...although, what's with that line I see slipping between the rider's leg and the frame???

[ideola]

This was the article that inspired me to experiment:
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/cooler-heads-prevail/

Key quote, emphasis mine:

In time, the two-stroke GP racers tackled these problems, but for many years it remained an article of faith that as soon as you took delivery of your new sportbike you had to toss its restrictive air-filter case and replace it with higher-flowing sock filters. Five horsepower, free and easy!

We didn’t realize what we were giving away in the bargain. In 500 GP, bikes progressed from no airboxes, to airboxes which merely kept hot air out of the carburetors, to full fruition using the airbox as an intake resonator, also able to recover valuable intake pressure with forward-facing ram-air ducts.

Imagine how surprised the ardent Supersport racers of the early ’90s were when, upon discarding their airboxes, performance fell flat. They had lost the extra horsepower that the newly discovered airbox resonance generated. Quick! I hear the garbage truck coming! Jump in the dumpster and rescue that airbox!

Right now bike engines have lovely intake airboxes supplied with cool air by a forward-facing intake. That’s real progress. But the engines themselves still hunker behind a coolant radiator jammed between the aerodynamically sloppy front wheel and the hot exhaust pipes. No diffuser leads air efficiently to that radiator, and the hot air streaming from its rear face is heated even further by the exhaust pipes, losing all its energy as it stumbles along trying to find an exit through the hot-air outlets in the fairing sides. Plus, those side outlets effectively increase the “aerodynamic width” of the bike, thereby increasing drag and reducing top speed. Why?

Because the outflowing hot air has lost the velocity it had as it first approached the front of the bike. Now its outflow forms a low-velocity obstruction, which deflects free-stream air flowing around the sides of the fairing. But because bikes are already so densely packed, there’s no room to duct spent cooling air to the low-pressure zone behind the bike.

Problems never end. Fix one and discover three new ones. That’s life.

[lucky phil]

This was the article that inspired me to experiment:
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/cooler-heads-prevail/

Key quote, emphasis mine:

Yes that's from a Kevin Cameron article if I'm not mistaken ( I think I've read every word he's written over the last 35 years and have all his books) and the emphasis is on "recovering the lost" not creating additional. Nobody would argue that a forward facing ram duct is better than a rearwards opening intake but it's a matter of proportion and the reality of the RE situation. You can't take the example of a MotoGP or race bike intake at the leading edge of the fairing nose in a "high pressure" zone (relatively speaking) and the associated computer designed ducting behind it and then think you'll get the same or even remotely similar result by tacking on a scoop on the side cover of a RE inside the riders lower leg. Aerodynamics as with most things isn't that simple. I spent a 40 year career in Aircraft engineering and believe me aerodynamics is a complicated area. Some things look right but are aerodynamically rubbish and proven to be pointless with the passage of time and better measuring techniques. This is why the governing body of MotoGP is trying to keep a lid on aerodynamics in racing because the gains require expensive work in a wind tunnel and thousands of hours there within for tiny gains. What looks like a good idea on paper very often fails in the tunnel. It ain't as simple as nailed on scoops even on an RE.   
I look at the internet as primarily a source of information transfer so I comment on what I see to be the right and the misleading not for the sake of raining on someone's parade but to try and keep information as accurate as it can be. I'm happy to be proved wrong if it contributes to the overall body of valid and accurate data on these boards. So modify away and enjoy yourself my comments aren't really aimed at you personally but at the concepts.
Ciao
         

[ideola]

emphasis is on "recovering the lost" not creating additional. Nobody would argue that a forward facing ram duct is better than a rearwards opening intake

I wonder what is "lost" with the RE's rearward facing puny inlet, and what could be "recovered" by using a forward facing duct?

This discussion has jogged some memories when we were explorying laminar flow concepts for intercooler development, hood extraction vents with a low pressure-inducing lip at the leading edge, and the various sizes of tail spoilers that Porsche used on different models. Interestingly, the early 924 Turbo (931) with it's relatively small rear tail spoiler had the best cD of all of the 924/944/968 variants, and its numbers are still rarely beaten even today. They were never able to do better with cD...BUT, they ended up with bigger spoilers as power increased and downforce on the rear transaxle became more important than raw cD figures.

One of the techniques we used to explore laminar flow was yarn tufts taped to various portions of the body work. We can do the same thing on the splitter / diffuser concept I am planning to explore. A strategically placed GoPro focused on said yarn tufts should yield usable information regarding the flow of air where I plan to direct it.

I wish there was enough room to put a NACA duct because NACA ducts look even more badass than ram-air style ducts. Maybe that will be an alternate concept...

[lucky phil]

I wonder what is "lost" with the RE's rearward facing puny inlet, and what could be "recovered" by using a forward facing duct?

This discussion has jogged some memories when we were explorying laminar flow concepts for intercooler development, hood extraction vents with a low pressure-inducing lip at the leading edge, and the various sizes of tail spoilers that Porsche used on different models. Interestingly, the early 924 Turbo (931) with it's relatively small rear tail spoiler had the best cD of all of the 924/944/968 variants, and its numbers are still rarely beaten even today. They were never able to do better with cD...BUT, they ended up with bigger spoilers as power increased and downforce on the rear transaxle became more important than raw cD figures.

One of the techniques we used to explore laminar flow was yarn tufts taped to various portions of the body work. We can do the same thing on the splitter / diffuser concept I am planning to explore. A strategically placed GoPro focused on said yarn tufts should yield usable information regarding the flow of air where I plan to direct it.

I wish there was enough room to put a NACA duct because NACA ducts look even more badass than ram-air style ducts. Maybe that will be an alternate concept...

Well tufts of wool and recording can be an option, it's been done many times before. I remember the guy at the forefront of F1 aerodynamics back in the 60's was the great driver and brilliant engineer Bruce Mclaren. He was testing one day and left the pits and noted the forward hinging access flap in the nose cowl in front of the wind shield had been left undone by the mechanics and made a mental note to come into the pits and have it secured on the next lap. He was surprised to see that at top speed down the back straight the flap instead of blowing shut was actually sitting up into the slipstream. He called into the pits and told the mechanics to cut a big hole in the top of the nose cowl behind the radiator and went out and did some laps. The car was faster and handled better with less understeer. That was the origins of the radiator outlet nostrils on F1 cars. Amazing times for enlightened engineers back then. Unfortunately the gains now are hard fought and expensive to come by. No low hanging fruit left.
I'm not surprised the Porsche with the smallest rear spoiler had the lowest CD, I wouldn't be amazed if it had less even that one without a spoiler. Sometimes it's counterintuitive. I saw John Britten fit vortex generators to the side of one of his bikes at Daytona one year. He just thought he'd try it. He didn't understand a vortex generator is used to energise the boundary layer on an aircraft wing to improve the the effectiveness of flight controls and wing performance not as some anti drag device. Even geniuses get it wrong sometimes.

Ciao
 

[gizzo]

This conversation makes me think of the Bathurst Toranas. Story goes the engineers discovered that there's more air to be forced down the bonnet scoop if the opening is at the back in the high pressure air in front of the windscreen than if it faced forward into the airflow, GT Shaker style.
Doesn't make sense at first glance but there it is. Also, it looks Hot 

[lucky phil]

This conversation makes me think of the Bathurst Toranas. Story goes the engineers discovered that there's more air to be forced down the bonnet scoop if the opening is at the back in the high pressure air in front of the windscreen than if it faced forward into the airflow, GT Shaker style.
Doesn't make sense at first glance but there it is. Also, it looks Hot 

Yep true. I had one on my Torana, counter intuitive isn't it but when you know the details it makes sense. Well in theory anyway. The area of the cabin vent is in a higher pressure zone (relatively) so the reversed intake uses that to it's advantage. I must ask the FAI about it. I'm not totally sure if it was backed by wind tunnel data or a decent theory. Those LH/LX Toranas were an awesome car esp with a 327 Chev under the hood:)

Ciao   

[gizzo]

Yep true. I had one on my Torana, counter intuitive isn't it but when you know the details it makes sense. Well in theory anyway. The area of the cabin vent is in a higher pressure zone (relatively) so the reversed intake uses that to it's advantage. I must ask the FAI about it. I'm not totally sure if it was backed by wind tunnel data or a decent theory. Those LH/LX Toranas were an awesome car esp with a 327 Chev under the hood:)

Ciao

They're only the best looking car of all time... 

[Starpeve]

They're only the best looking car of all time... 

I sold my Kermit Green 4.2 lx hatch in ‘02. My second, I wrote no1 off, no2 some housewife screaming over her shoulder at her ( unrestrained) brats ran up my arse and did huge damage to the floor pan. Beyond my budget to repair.
Very sorry to lose my favourite car of all. A truly beautiful car.
BTW Simon, you could call me slow on the uptake but have you recently had a stack? You mentioned injury and damage in a previous post. If so, hope you’re ok 👍
.

[gizzo]

I sold my Kermit Green 4.2 lx hatch in ‘02. My second, I wrote no1 off, no2 some housewife screaming over her shoulder at her ( unrestrained) brats ran up my arse and did huge damage to the floor pan. Beyond my budget to repair.
Very sorry to lose my favourite car of all. A truly beautiful car.
BTW Simon, you could call me slow on the uptake but have you recently had a stack? You mentioned injury and damage in a previous post. If so, hope you’re ok 👍
.

Back in February I did. Trowelled my GT on Montacute Rd, below the fire station. I wrecked the tank, handlebars, a few bits n bobs. And broke my other collarbone. It's OK now. Still a bit stiff but hopefully it will end up as good as the other one.
Thanks for asking 

[NVDucati]

This conversation makes me think of the Bathurst Toranas. Story goes the engineers discovered that there's more air to be forced down the bonnet scoop if the opening is at the back in the high pressure air in front of the windscreen than if it faced forward into the airflow, GT Shaker style.
Doesn't make sense at first glance but there it is. Also, it looks Hot 

That is because the boundary layer is always trying to expand in all directions, including down through the skin of an object in motion.

[NVDucati]

Thank you...the more people tell me it can't or shan't be done, the more determined I am to do it 

Speaking of laminar flow...it's a naked bike, after all, and there ain't much...although, what's with that line I see slipping between the rider's leg and the frame???

Sometimes lofting a part is far more accurate than a CAD drawing. 
A while back I built a sports car as a personal project. I had previously led a project to design and build a airship for a large US beer company. On the airship the boundary layer got a fresh look and I got a lot of generous help from Sandia labs. I learned a lot and in particular a lot about old consensus theories in general. They got old because people just stopped testing them.
No surprise I did not have a wind tunnel at my home shop. So I bought two large squirrel cage fans from Graingers. One for volume(CMF) and the other for static head pressure(PSI). I mounted them on scrap wheelchair frames.  I wanted to incorporate the notion of the bulbous hull from big ships to the front of my car. I would build a nose section based on my best guess and then ... I would "spritz" the body with water. Then toss flour into the fans. The car would turn white and then as the air dried the flour it would blow away leaving trace lines of the flow. I'd get out my circular saw and cut the nose off and try again. On the fourth iteration I was satisfied.

In another instance I did a project for a guy from the UK who wanted to cross the Pacific in a balloon. A really, really big balloon. At that point in time there was very well established order about the transfer of heat through helium. Well no one had ever put 2.6 M-cu.ft of helium into a single container. We built a scale test balloon of about 200,000 cu.ft and I flew it from Sparks Nevada. The "book" on helium was wrong in that particular regard.

So my point is simple. Read the book(s) sure, but don't accept theory as truth. As ideola is demonstrating there is always more to be done.

[lucky phil]

Sometimes lofting a part is far more accurate than a CAD drawing. 
A while back I built a sports car as a personal project. I had previously led a project to design and build a airship for a large US beer company. On the airship the boundary layer got a fresh look and I got a lot of generous help from Sandia labs. I learned a lot and in particular a lot about old consensus theories in general. They got old because people just stopped testing them.
No surprise I did not have a wind tunnel at my home shop. So I bought two large squirrel cage fans from Graingers. One for volume(CMF) and the other for static head pressure(PSI). I mounted them on scrap wheelchair frames.  I wanted to incorporate the notion of the bulbous hull from big ships to the front of my car. I would build a nose section based on my best guess and then ... I would "spritz" the body with water. Then toss flour into the fans. The car would turn white and then as the air dried the flour it would blow away leaving trace lines of the flow. I'd get out my circular saw and cut the nose off and try again. On the fourth iteration I was satisfied.

In another instance I did a project for a guy from the UK who wanted to cross the Pacific in a balloon. A really, really big balloon. At that point in time there was very well established order about the transfer of heat through helium. Well no one had ever put 2.6 M-cu.ft of helium into a single container. We built a scale test balloon of about 200,000 cu.ft and I flew it from Sparks Nevada. The "book" on helium was wrong in that particular regard.

So my point is simple. Read the book(s) sure, but don't accept theory as truth. As ideola is demonstrating there is always more to be done.

Interesting stuff. Sometimes the testing also stops because at the time the equipment isn't up to the accuracy required at the time or the technology to make that type of measuring equipment doesn't exist. Hence a lot of Einstein's theories are now being proven. He used to do what he termed "thought experiments" and now we have the tech to prove his theories are correct.
Here's another one, the boiling point of water, 100deg C at sea level right? wrong. Almost never is. It's anywhere between 97 and 103 deg at sea level. I read a piece on it recently that charted the history of research on the boiling point of water going back hundreds of years and the amazing thing is the understanding of the actual process isn't well understood. I only went there because I was calibrating a thermometer at home and thought I'll boil some water and it boiled at 97deg C and it wasn't the thermometer. Then I started researching and there is no definitive answer to the variability, plenty of factors that have an influence. Interestingly if you stir water for a period of time to deaerate it say for 24 hrs when you try to boil it it gets to around the 100 C mark give or take the variabilities and then literally erupts in something not unlike a minor explosion and throws hot water everywhere.

Ciao     

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

I read a piece on it recently that charted the history of research on the boiling point of water going back hundreds of years and the amazing thing is the understanding of the actual process isn't well understood.
Ciao   

Interesting! I remember high school in the late 90s teaching me that "any liquid boils when its vapour pressure equals the atmospheric pressure at it's location". That's it.

Dissolved gasses and stuff do make a difference, but they all act via the 'vapour pressure' variable. I'd say that boiling point of water has been well-understood for quote a long time now. The standard boiling point has been defined by IUPAC since 1982 as the temperature at which boiling occurs under a pressure of one bar. The tricky and difficult to understand concept is the 'triple point' of water.

But yeah, you're very right about the other things you've said.

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

Was that Richard Branson, by any chance?

In another instance I did a project for a guy from the UK who wanted to cross the Pacific in a balloon. A really, really big balloon.

So my point is simple. Read the book(s) sure, but don't accept theory as truth. As ideola is demonstrating there is always more to be done.

Usually, in my experience, not accepting theory as truth has more to do with a person not really understanding the theory in depth and the assumptions that it makes. There's a ton more that goes into a theory, than just meets the eye. Don't believe me, let's have a discussion into the 'theory of natural selection'?

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

I was gonna say, I thought I saw a 924 in the photo you posted.

Then again, growing up in Detroit hot-rod culture and building a 20-year side-business developing performance mods for the much-maligned Porsche 924/931 series.

I agree with you here. But the opposite is also equally true. Many many times, the factory doesn't do it, because it's not a good idea for that product.

The idea that "the factory didn't do it so it must not be a good idea" has been debunked more times than I can count.

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

....and from that same photo of velocity streamlines, don't you see that your intake scoop would be much better served if it was moved to somewhere around the front and bottom edge of the tank? like that on the Yamaha V-Max?

Here:


Also, the photo you shared, is basically an artist's impression aka simulation, and incomplete- doesn't show anything about the air going around the forks and the tank.

I'm not really confident that the engineers at Yamaha had a lesser understanding of cold air intakes and fluid dynamics than you do. I'm really not sure.
Kinda reminds me of the saying "they were so busy wondering if they could, that they forgot to ask if they should"

That was my point with bringing up the aerodynamics and fluid dynamics argument. Having the scoop behind the rider's leg, might not be a smart idea. Other than that, please go ahead. We're all waiting with bated breath to know the results of your efforts and intellectual pursuits. I'm all for cold-air intakes designed and positioned well enough to work.

Godspeed!

Thank you...the more people tell me it can't or shan't be done, the more determined I am to do it 

Speaking of laminar flow...it's a naked bike, after all, and there ain't much...although, what's with that line I see slipping between the rider's leg and the frame???

[ideola]

I have another concept in the works. It's a hybrid of what NVDucati suggested and that Yamaha induction pipe.

One thing that is being missed in all of this discussion is that there is an over-focus on hypothetical laminar flow, which NONE of us have data on, and not enough focus on the improvements that can be made vis a vis lower intake temps and improvements to both dynamic and static pressure with sheer increase in volume of airflow. Even a warm air intake that swallows more air will improve intake temps. The scoop in my photo has more than double the frontal area; laminar flow or not, it WILL allow the airbox to draw more air and do it more freely (with the DNA filter installed).

I've never been one to allow perfection to get in the way of progress.

[ideola]

Stage 1 prototype side cover in hastily molded ABS plastic complete.

[NVDucati]

Stage 1 prototype side cover in hastily molded ABS plastic complete.

It does look bad ass!!
Like the heat / knee shield, too. Both sides?

[gizzo]

I'm not really confident that the engineers at Yamaha had a lesser understanding of cold air intakes and fluid dynamics than you do. I'm really not sure.

I'm confident the engineers took a back seat on that one and let the design department have its way...

Whatever, it looks badass and never get less cool. And that's important.

[NVDucati]

I'm confident the engineers took a back seat on that one and let the design department have its way...

Whatever, it looks badass and never get less cool. And that's important.

Those intakes and exhaust really elucidate what its all about.

[ideola]

It does look bad ass!!
Like the heat / knee shield, too. Both sides?

Yep, those are from Baak.

[2wheelsmovethesoul]

IDK dude...it would seem to me that as you ride, the air would follow the yellow arrow. Its physics. No hard feelings. You also don't need any degree to understand this. Put a fire between you and a fan pointed at you, it should be quite clear.

First, you're relying on a bunch of dirty turbulent air bouncing off the slipstream of your bike. That too, a very narrow stream. And then, you position it so that the only thing it achieves is collecting all the hot air off the engine, like a catcher's glove. IDK what's the point here anymore. .

I think there's a damn good reason why no one puts it where you have.

Stage 1 prototype side cover in hastily molded ABS plastic complete.

[ideola]

I don't care what you think. <shrug>

[lucky phil]

IDK dude...it would seem to me that as you ride, the air would follow the yellow arrow. Its physics. No hard feelings. You also don't need any degree to understand this. Put a fire between you and a fan pointed at you, it should be quite clear.

First, you're relying on a bunch of dirty turbulent air bouncing off the slipstream of your bike. That too, a very narrow stream. And then, you position it so that the only thing it achieves is collecting all the hot air off the engine, like a catcher's glove. IDK what's the point here anymore. .

I think there's a damn good reason why no one puts it where you have.

Yep

Ciao

[ideola]

If my leg does block the air, then the air being inducted by the scoop is no worse than the air that is pulled around 270° inside a constrained space that...wait for it...gets its air supply from dirty turbulent air coming straight off the engine.

If my leg doesn't block the air, even if it is warmish air...which as far as I know, no one has posted temp data or laminar air flow analysis for...then the air scoop is still drawing in more than DOUBLE the air that the OEM inlet allows for.

You are both focusing solely on the position of the duct, with only supposition unsupported by data, and discounting the fact that a larger volume of even somewhat warmish air has the effect of lowering intake temps and improving efficiency of the motor, all else being equal.

Once again with feeling:
1. It's a prototype
2. I'm not done yet
3. I don't care about your unsubstantiated concerns

If you want to contribute:
1. go buy some intake air temp sensors, mount in various locations, and report back what you find
2. go buy a GoPro and do a yarn tuft test with video evidence

Unless and until you contribute constructively, I assume you're just a troll and I don't give a damn about what you think.

[gizzo]

These boys got a 10% increase in power on the dyno just by moving the air inlet from the hot engine bay on the BMW. From about 20 min on.

https://youtu.be/8pUd1IIFeMU

Just for fun, you chaps carry on.

[NVDucati]

Yep

Ciao

We sorta went through this about a year ago. Some poor soul put a intake vents in his side cover. A couple of people pounced on him. "That's dumb..." Looks dumb...", "Nobody does that..."etc.
So I'm guessing that this a normal reaction.
When I started selling a relatively unknown brand of motorcycle I got grief about it, including the side covers. 

[zimmemr]

Why does anyone care what Ideola does to his bike? It's not like any of you are going to line up next to him at Daytona next March.
 If he's happy with it more power to him. Kevin Cameron once said "The reason the best tuners can see so far is because they're standing on a huge pile of broken parts." Substitute failed experiments if you want. I'm sure if Ideola's experiment is successful he'll let us all know in no uncertain terms. If it isn't you can all sit back and say I told you so.

In the mean time give it a rest. It's obvious no one here is going to dissuade him from building whatever he wants to. 

[lucky phil]

Why does anyone care what Ideola does to his bike? It's not like any of you are going to line up next to him at Daytona next March.
 If he's happy with it more power to him. Kevin Cameron once said "The reason the best tuners can see so far is because they're standing on a huge pile of broken parts." Substitute failed experiments if you want. I'm sure if Ideola's experiment is successful he'll let us all know in no uncertain terms. If it isn't you can all sit back and say I told you so.

In the mean time give it a rest. It's obvious no one here is going to dissuade him from building whatever he wants to. 

I guess as a general principle for me if you're going to post on the internet and make claims or assumptions about something you are doing you're going to get technically minded people ask your reasoning and provide counter points for discussion. I think that's fair enough if for no other reason than to keep the "unproven theory's" honest. The internet is among other things a source of technical information and for others that come looking for answers I don't think opposing views are unwarranted if they are done without malice.
I can show a dozen things over the last 40 years that I've done that I can see in hindsight were a waste of time. Note the home made mechanical anti dive on my self built Motoplast Kawasaki along with the self built and designed bodywork and fuel tank. Anti dive of any sort was a total waste of time as the GP racers found out after a few years and my bodywork design skill left a bit to be desired even for the mid 80's. The quality was good though and my battery box under the swingarm pivot concept worked.
The last thing the side panels vents on a Ducati 750 Sport were for was to feed the rear carb fresh air believe me. I owned One back in the day.

Ciao   

[zimmemr]

I guess as a general principle for me if you're going to post on the internet and make claims or assumptions about something you are doing you're going to get technically minded people ask your reasoning and provide counter points for discussion. I think that's fair enough if for no other reason than to keep the "unproven theory's" honest. The internet is among other things a source of technical information and for others that come looking for answers I don't think opposing views are unwarranted if they are done without malice.
I can show a dozen things over the last 40 years that I've done that I can see in hindsight were a waste of time. Note the home made mechanical anti dive on my self built Motoplast Kawasaki along with the self built and designed bodywork and fuel tank. Anti dive of any sort was a total waste of time as the GP racers found out after a few years and my bodywork design skill left a bit to be desired even for the mid 80's. The quality was good though and my battery box under the swingarm pivot concept worked.
The last thing the side panels vents on a Ducati 750 Sport were for was to feed the rear carb fresh air believe me. I owned One back in the day.

Ciao   

I don't disagree with anything you said here. And I'm not saying Ideola is right or wrong in his assumptions. But once you've made your argument pro or con (and I use "your" in the editorial sense here) that should be the end of it. If he's wrong he'll know soon enough, and hopefully he'll post something to that affect. Likewise if he does manage to eke out some performance increase then won't we all be surprised.

In the meantime it just seemed to me that the discussion  was turning into one of those unresolveable school yard type arguments, like who's tougher Batman or Superman, that always end with hurt feeling and a bloody nose.

As to failed experiments, we've all been there, you should see some of the insane stuff I saw back in my dirt track days. But I always remember how many guys thought Bill Werners idea of an XR750 "twingle" was foolish. He built one anyway, and a few years later they were banned because it gave him and the guys clever enough to figure out how to do it an "unfair advantage."

Like granddad use to say, "it's time to see where the bear shit in the buckwheat." Meaning that if Ideola's idea is valid he should be able to verify some sort of performance incease. Absent that it's an intersting looking cosmetic modification, sort of like the portholes in an old Buick. But at this point any further discussion is just a lot of wasted effort no matter which side you support. 

[Starpeve]

We sorta went through this about a year ago. Some poor soul put a intake vents in his side cover. A couple of people pounced on him. "That's dumb..." Looks dumb...", "Nobody does that..."etc.
So I'm guessing that this a normal reaction.
When I started selling a relatively unknown brand of motorcycle I got grief about it, including the side covers. 

Yuk!! What a hideous machine! How did you ever sell any??😁😁😁

[ideola]

Some parts arrived yesterday for Stage 2 of the prototype.






There is at least a Stage 3 of this design, but I'm still contemplating how to implement it.

I also have another completely different design in mind as well that may be more to everyone's liking but won't look as cool. I will post pix of that prototype once I start building it.

I've also ordered a bluetooth OBD II dongle and app for Android that purports to allow for real time data observation. I don't have 100% confirmation yet, but it appeared to me from digging through several threads that it will allow me to observe IAT. I don't think it supports logging, but I can probably rig up a cell phone holder and GoPro to capture live data during street runs.

I honestly expect that none of the mods will make a hill of beans of difference in measurable IAT, which in some respects would be a minor victory since one of my design goals is that I like the way the side scoop looks.

**********

Part of the problem I have with the way these conversations go is that it is rare for people to be able to offer constructive criticism. If people would use the Socratic method to pose countering ideas, it would be more palatable. For example:

Have you considered that the placement of the vent might draw hot air off the engine?

instead of

That's a dumb design because all you're going to do is suck hot air off the engine.

Do you see the difference in that approach?

All the people saying the latter are positing an opinion as a matter of fact when the reality is they haven't got any evidence or done any testing to prove their assertion. So if you have something constructive to say, I'm all ears. If you can't say it constructively or nicely...

[ideola]

I hate the fender extensions, so I removed them and rather than doing some cheesy plastic plugs, I decided to turn the fender around and use the bolt holes for something...interesting. Every project needs a theme...and this is for all the haters. Can't wait to see the comments. 





I also completed installation of my custom beeline moto bracket on this bike as well as the Interceptor.

[ideola]

Just did 99 miles in 2.5 hours, 85°F @ 69% humidity. Measured fuel consumption of 1.548 US gallons of 93 Octane over 84.8 miles = 55.43 MPG.

For comparison, 3 days ago I did 162 miles in 5 hours, 86°F @69% humidity. Measured fuel consumption of 2.04 US gallons of 93 Octane over 104 miles = 50.98 MPG.

That's a difference of nearly 10%. Both runs included spirited acceleration and extended runs above 70MPH.

I'm not saying the scoop contributed one way or another. But nothing fell off, nothing melted, and no complaints from the bike.

[Starpeve]

I hate the fender extensions, so I removed them and rather than doing some cheesy plastic plugs, I decided to turn the fender around and use the bolt holes for something...interesting. Every project needs a theme...and this is for all the haters. Can't wait to see the comments. 





I also completed installation of my custom beeline moto bracket on this bike as well as the Interceptor.

Built Like A Gun! Quite thematic!😂
I really like that tank bag.

[ideola]

Last night, I tackled the Zard High Side exhaust installation. I was originally planning to wrap it, but the method of installation and multiple pieces would make that a very difficult chore. Still contemplating Jet-Hot coating, but I'm going to run it for a while to see if the stainless takes on the same burnished patina as the stainless exhaust on my Janus. I had the heat shields powder coated in gloss black to match the frame. I think the contrast looks fantastic.







The exhaust is a marvel of engineering and a work of art. Installation was very easy, if not a little tedious. Zard's video tutorial made it a snap. There were a few missing screws, but I had plenty of suitable spares on hand.

The routing of the header pipes makes installation of any of the genuine RE engine guards impossible because the upper frame mount to which the affix is completely blocked on the right side. I'll have to return the small guards I purchased from my dealer. I will be installing the sump guard next.

Cooler weather today, but dangerous winds and thunderstorms in the forecast, so initial test run and impressions will have to wait. I've removed the baffles for now, but it may be too loud even for my tastes. We'll see.

[Toontje]

The exhaust is a marvel of engineering and a work of art.

That's definitely a nice piece of kit. Suits the Interceptor very well.

[ideola]

That's definitely a nice piece of kit. Suits the Interceptor very well.

This is actually a continental gt. I've temporarily switched the tank because the CGT tank is off for a color change.

[Toontje]

This is actually a continental gt. I've temporarily switched the tank because the CGT tank is off for a color change.

I see that now. Funny how you want to build a "cafe scrambler". 

[ideola]

I see that now. Funny how you want to build a "cafe scrambler". 

I knew this comment was coming. I know it's a long thread, but go back to the first page of the thread. I've posted several pix of cafe style bikes with high side exhausts. It's not as common of a look, but just because it has a high side doesn't make it a scrambler.

[Toontje]

I knew this comment was coming. I know it's a long thread, but go back to the first page of the thread. I've posted several pix of cafe style bikes with high side exhausts. It's not as common of a look, but just because it has a high side doesn't make it a scrambler.

Hey, don't worries. I absolutely love them, my friend. They look trick.

[ideola]

CAI option two:
Imagine this design, but executed with off-the-shelf black silicone components (already on order), or better yet, custom fabricated in aluminum with mandrel bends and powder coated to your choice of color key.







The white PVC helps to visualize how it's constructed and routed, but I think in black, it will just blend right into the frame and not be so obtrusive.

[ideola]

Up close details:
There is plenty of room to "tuck" a 2" O.D. tube just under the lip of the tank and make it even more flush than this rigid PVC pipe setup. Also, the inlet flange I am using can be cut down a little bit to allow the two 90s to tuck in closer to the frame. But even as is with this prototype, there is NO discomfort at all for the riders left leg...in fact the tube almost proves a more comfortably positioned knee brace than the funky stock wire item that presses into the fins of the motor. In the third photo you can get an idea of the position of this particular setup as compared with the high side exhaust on the right side of the bike. With a little finesse on the installation, I think you won't even notice it's there when seated.









The other thing that might be doable is to position the lower 90° elbow at an angle, and then use a 45° elbow on the top part such that it follows more of the angle of the OEM side panel. I will be experimenting with that.

Since I now have a pattern of the metal side cover, it will be easy for me to mock up multiple iterations of the side cover that can be cut using a simple 2" hole bit to allow the inlet tube into the airbox area. I will eventually design a cover that not only accommodates this setup, but also provides a much tighter airbox to prevent ANY of the hot air from the motor from getting into the air filter area.

[NVDucati]

CAI option two:
Imagine this design, but executed with off-the-shelf black silicone components (already on order), or better yet, custom fabricated in aluminum with mandrel bends and powder coated to your choice of color key.
...

I'm guessing you don't require a lot of sleep .
I like it. May I suggest adding "entrainment" at the intake bell. It won't be difficult to do and the testing is easy. No moving parts. The result is pretty impressive.
Below is a video that while not exactly on point demonstrates entrainment. It is off point only in regard to it being for a compressed air solution.
https://youtu.be/do4QyqUUQgY

[Jared_Lee]

George at Tec Bike Parts has apparently been concerned with the same issue on the Himalayans. His solution is quite different, but concerned with same results - less hot air and more cold air into the airbox. Have a look. Maybe there's a less aggressive solution for you in there.

https://youtu.be/wW3w5cvIehA

[ideola]

I saw that video earlier this week. Definitely some interesting stuff, but I don't like his indirect draw method. I want to FORCE feed cold air into the intake. But it was his video that encouraged me to further explore isolating the airbox itself. In stock form, it gets a LOT of air coming directly off the back of the engine.

I received my OBD II bluetooth reader and harness this week, just waiting for the sumitomo connectors to make it RE compatible. I'm hoping to use it to monitor IAT and then do some tests with the different configurations to see if there's any measurable difference.

Despite all the worriers, the scoop setup I first implemented appears to have resulted in a gain of close to 5 MPG, which is clearly indicative of colder air getting into the mixture.

Also, I am putting the Autologue Reck 2.1 kit on this bike, so I *want* it to look really aggressive, and I think the induction pipe and / or the scoop accomplish that.

[Jared_Lee]

Yes, I've been following your progress. I just don't know enough to offer and useful feedback so I've kept my mouth shut. That being said, it's pretty clear to me that you enjoy the engineering and discovery process. For that alone, this is all worthwhile. I'm interested to see what comes up when you measure IAT, or rather what comes down.

[ideola]

May I suggest adding "entrainment" at the intake bell. It won't be difficult to do and the testing is easy. No moving parts. The result is pretty impressive.
Below is a video that while not exactly on point demonstrates entrainment. It is off point only in regard to it being for a compressed air solution.
https://youtu.be/do4QyqUUQgY

Super interesting concept, but I can't see how to implement "entrainment" without a source of compressed air. A ram air inlet is still essentially at atmospheric pressure...

[ideola]

Yes, I've been following your progress. I just don't know enough to offer and useful feedback so I've kept my mouth shut. That being said, it's pretty clear to me that you enjoy the engineering and discovery process. For that alone, this is all worthwhile. I'm interested to see what comes up when you measure IAT, or rather what comes down.

No need to stay silent!!! I welcome constructive feedback, even if it's just encouragement like your post above 

[ideola]

Long but fascinating article on ram air induction.
http://www.vararam.com/ramairinaroadcar.html

[NVDucati]

Super interesting concept, but I can't see how to implement "entrainment" without a source of compressed air. ...

Yeah, I agree.
Picture this:
 

[ideola]

Yeah, I agree.
Picture this:
 

Is that rated for continuous duty? 

[NVDucati]

Is that rated for continuous duty? 

Don't know about that particular one. But you can find them that are.

[fireypete]

Ideola,
really enjoying your mods.
My 2c. worth.....What you're doing (for me) is what I would consider the original cafe racers and Rockers would have done in the '60's.  Experiment, modify, change and try to get lighter, faster or more individual. Buy what you can, make what you can't.  Its ALL good!
Cheers,
Pete

[ideola]

Ideola,
really enjoying your mods.
My 2c. worth.....What you're doing (for me) is what I would consider the original cafe racers and Rockers would have done in the '60's.  Experiment, modify, change and try to get lighter, faster or more individual. Buy what you can, make what you can't.  Its ALL good!
Cheers,
Pete

Thank you sir!!!

###########

Finally had a break in the weather today that coincided with a break in my meeting schedule. I was able to take the CGT out for it's first run since installing the Zard high side exhaust. OMG what an amazing difference!!! Not just the sound, but the PULL. The bike felt willing before, now it feels eager, but without being frenetic.

Comparing back to back with a short jaunt on the Interceptor (which has the TEC big bore exhaust)...I mean, both bikes feel great with the little tweaks I've made, but I continue to be amazed at how completely different they are with respect to character and the riding experience. I am so thrilled that I bought both of these models instead of a single Triumph.

And check out what one heat cycle did to the color of the stainless!!!!! Gorgeous patina already! So she's going to stay unwrapped and uncoated...the burnished color is very nearly identical to the brass appointments I've been adding.

[fireypete]

As a matter of interest....I ditched the two horns for a small chrome Oxford unit to "free up" the front of the motor.

[gizzo]

CAI option two:
Imagine this design, but executed with off-the-shelf black silicone components (already on order), or better yet, custom fabricated in aluminum with mandrel bends and powder coated to your choice of color key.







The white PVC helps to visualize how it's constructed and routed, but I think in black, it will just blend right into the frame and not be so obtrusive.

That ducting with this bad boy 

[ATXConti650]

Muyh ha ha ! Install frikin lasers too !

[ideola]

That ducting with this bad boy 

Perhaps I should have ordered pink silly-cone instead of black! 

[ideola]

I just recorded the highest fuel economy I have been able to achieve on either bike.
Temp at start: 78°F
Temp at finish: 84°F
Elapsed time: ~3 hours
Miles between fillups: 103.9 spirited miles over a variety of terrains, road surfaces, and speed limits ranging from 25 MPH up to 70 MPH
Fuel consumed: 1.667 US Gallons
Miles per Gallon: 62.3

These results are nearly 7 MPG better than the 55.4 MPG I achieved in nearly identical conditions on the same bike just four days ago.

Here's what's changed on the bike since that 55 MPG run on the 8th:

• added a baffle inside the Ideola Side-Draft Warm Air Intake™ to force more air into the silicone coupler, rather than just allowing it to go past the opening
• installed the Hitchcocks air injection delete kit
• installed the Zard high side free flow exhaust

The prior run had the side-draft WAI but without the baffle. Both runs were done on 93 US Octane fuel purchased at Mobil, with Motul 10W50 full synthetic, and of course, the DNA Air Filter and retaining bracket.

We may not be able to conclusively attribute these improvements to the WAI, but it certainly doesn't appear to be hurting anything, at least from a fuel economy perspective.

[Toontje]

Have you considered changing only one variable at a time? For science sake?

[ideola]

Have you considered changing only one variable at a time? For science sake?

That's just crazy talk!


Seriously though...I'm not really interested in repeating tests that others have done with respect the DNA filter and the free flow exhausts. Zard and TEC both have dyno charts that show the combination yields about a 10% increase in BHP.

As for the WAI/CAI concept, I will be able to conduct comparison tests between three variations on both bikes:

• No CAI, just standard DNA air filter with standard side panel
• Side draft CAI with prototype ABS side panel
• Ram air CAI (bell-mouth with tube) with ABS side panel

The way I have modified the side panels, it will be a piece of cake for me to switch between the three configurations, such that I can go out and do back-to-back-to-back runs at highway speeds while logging results using the OBD-II bluetooth sensor and the Torque Pro app for Android. Option 1 will provide a baseline irrespective of the other mods to see what if any impact the CAI setups have on intake air temps.

If we can see any measurable results such that we can identify which approach shows the most promise, then I will focus on refining it further. The ability to log ambient air temp vs intake air temp is the key variable: both the delta between the two, as well as the difference in IAT from one config to the next. Conventional tuner wisdom is that every -10°F of IAT is good for about +1 BHP (on a V8...probably not so dramatic on a parallel twin, but there will be some increase in power), so all I care about in the short term is documenting whether we can reduce IAT.

If we can satisfy that the CAI actually reduces IAT, then we can explore whether its enough to justify doing dyno runs to see what the real outcomes are.

{EDIT}
The actual horsepower increase is +1.02% HP for every 10°F of reduction in IAT. There are other variables that effect the power gains, but this is a good rule of thumb. Also, it's not just about temp reduction, it's also about flow, volume, and efficiency of cylinder filling, all of which a ram air / CAI induction system can improve. In many cases, it actually improves torque under the curve which can be just as important as an increase in topline HP. It's not always about topline power. Acceleration and torque can improve performance and win races.

[Toontje]

Can you measure and publish the air temperature at the intake of the side panel as compared to the ambient temperature? Like this we know if the original setup (backward facing) or your side panel intake (front facing) draws in hot air from the engine or not. Because i don't believe there is much of a difference when riding between ambient temperature and air intake temperature even though you take the presumably "hot" air from right behind the engine. I think you are taking in much more cool ambient temperature air than hot air from the engine. But only a measurement can prove that.

[ideola]

Can you measure and publish the air temperature at the intake of the side panel as compared to the ambient temperature? Like this we know if the original setup (backward facing) or your side panel intake (front facing) draws in hot air from the engine or not. Because i don't believe there is much of a difference when riding between ambient temperature and air intake temperature even though you take the presumably "hot" air from right behind the engine. I think you are taking in much more cool ambient temperature air than hot air from the engine. But only a measurement can prove that.

There's no easy way to do that without rigging up separate temparature sensors and a logging apparatus, which I am unwilling to pursue. If you watch that video by George at TEC, he's getting different hot spots at various places under that panel on the Himalayan. I suspect something similar is happening on the twins. All that to say, the better solution is to isolate the filter inlet from ALL of that hot air completely, so it becomes a moot point what you measure under the panel.

The only variable that *really* matters is IAT measured by the engine's sensor, and this is something we can hopefully tap into with the OBD-II device & app.

As for ambient air, the rule of thumb is that by the time the air makes it to the engines IAT sensor, on most motorcycle and car engines, the IAT temps are 30°F to 40°F higher than ambient. So the goal is to get that temp as close to ambient as possible. It's nearly impossible to get IAT below ambient unless you start doing some really crazy complex charge air cooling. I've spent many many hour researching this, and had designed a refrigerant-cooled charge air cooler for the Porsche 931, but it ended up being way too complex, way too expensive, and unlikely to lower temps enough to offset the added weight of the system (10 pounds = 1 BHP, etc. etc.).

I believe there is an opportunity to reduce IATs by at least 20°F, maybe more, with a cleverly designed CAI.

Here's Option Two, now moved from PVC prototype to beta release v0.1. This version was constructed as follows:

• hand cut and molded ABS plastic side cover
• 1.75" I.D. silicone straight hose trimmed down from 24" length to 15"
• 1.75" I.D. silicone 60° coupler
• 1.75" to 2.5" silicone 90° reducing coupler
• 2.5" to 3" plastic inlet flange
• drilled and tapped DNA metal filter cover and attached inlet flange to it
• 55mm x 62mm 1x Velocity Stack
• QTY (2) Stainless Steel Joiner, 1.75"
• QTY (2) T-Bolt Clamp for 1.75" Silicone Parts
• QTY (1) T-Bolt Clamp for 2.5" Silicone Parts
• QTY (1) stainless worm gear clamp
• QTY (1) custom made mounting bracket made from 1/16" alu flat stock
• QTY (2) large zip ties (for securing and "snugging" rear of the straight section to the frame; I will replace this with a bracket arrangement later)
  

[fireypete]

Pack up, move to Oztralia and be my neighbor!  Thats cool.  I like it!  I don't know how to give this karma stuff on a forum but you deserve some. 

[ideola]

Pack up, move to Oztralia and be my neighbor!  Thats cool.  I like it!  I don't know how to give this karma stuff on a forum but you deserve some.

Very kind of you, sir!!! I would ***love*** to visit Oz, definitely a bucket list thing...if only we could get past this damn pandemic, eh?!


#####

After posting last night, I made a few more tweaks.

I added some edge trim around the side panel cutout, which I think is a small but dramatic improvement to the "fit and finish" appearance of this mod.

I also removed the bright red edge trim from the silver tank and replaced it with black. The red worked really well when the tank was on the Interceptor, but as I have been slowly moving the styling of Project MLG toward its final destination, the red didn't work with the brass appointments. With the black, the bike looks more complete and purposeful, even in this interim stage of styling development.


A couple of changes I'll be addressing while awaiting the sumitomo electrical connectors required for testing:

• Make the "leg" of the forward bracket a bit longer in order to eliminate the worm gear clamp and "share" the T-bolt clamp used to secure the bell mouth
• Fabricate a bracket that will be oriented to "share" the T-bolt clamp used to secure the straight-to-elbow join (and eliminate the cable tie retention)

[ideola]

Move 'er outside for some better photos in the morning light.

[zimmemr]

Fess up Ideola, I'm thinking the real inspiration for all that plumbing came from James Bond and Thunderball.

[ideola]

Fess up Ideola, I'm thinking the real inspiration for all that plumbing came from James Bond and Thunderball.

Project Made Like a Gun 

[Toontje]

That, my friend, is a very fine looking motorbike.

[zimmemr]

Project Made Like a Gun 

Well there you go then. 

[justonemore]

Ideola, how about saving all of that money now going out on PVC piping by doing the old Triumph reverse cylinder head trick? 

[lucky phil]

Ideola, how about saving all of that money now going out on PVC piping by doing the old Triumph reverse cylinder head trick? 

Oh dear. If there's one thing an air cooled engine struggles with it's exhaust valve and head cooling around the exhaust ports. So you turn the head around and have the exhaust area deprived of direct cooling air to gain 2/5ths of SFA feeding the carbs direct to lose all of that and more with overheating exhaust valves and head. The things people used to do.

Ciao

[ideola]

Ideola, how about saving all of that money now going out on PVC piping by doing the old Triumph reverse cylinder head trick? 

Believe me, the thought of something like that crossed my mind...but I don't want to revert to carbs or re-engineer the oil cooler 

######

Installed the genuine RE sump guard, brake foot lever, and gear shift lever that were all in the last batch of gloss black powder coat.

I now need to do the foot pegs because for some reason, the TEC pegs won't fit into the rear set bracket on the Conti. I took the set I bought for this project and installed them as pillion pegs on the Interceptor (I had removed the OEM pillion pegs on that bike as well).

[justonemore]

Oh dear. If there's one thing an air cooled engine struggles with it's exhaust valve and head cooling around the exhaust ports. So you turn the head around and have the exhaust area deprived of direct cooling air to gain 2/5ths of SFA feeding the carbs direct to lose all of that and more with overheating exhaust valves and head. The things people used to do.

Ciao

Delete that reply, we must encourage not dissuade him. Imagine the hours of pleasure we could have following the dismantling of the plastic plumbing and the reversing of the cylinder head. Ideola's folly is the thing legends are built on.   

[lucky phil]

Delete that reply, we must encourage not dissuade him. Imagine the hours of pleasure we could have following the dismantling of the plastic plumbing and the reversing of the cylinder head. Ideola's folly is the thing legends are built on. 

Ha, yes true. I remember a guy on the Aprilia forum that developed a electrically powered ventilation system with tubes and a canister of desiccant gel to stop his instruments fogging up instead of just drilling some simple vent holes in the back of the instrument cases, the time honoured solution that works. His system predictably didn't work but it was amusing to watch.

Ciao 

[justonemore]

Ha, yes true. I remember a guy on the Aprilia forum that developed a electrically powered ventilation system with tubes and a canister of desiccant gel to stop his instruments fogging up instead of just drilling some simple vent holes in the back of the instrument cases, the time honoured solution that works. His system predictably didn't work but it was amusing to watch.

Ciao

You fellow Aprilia forum member, was his name Rube Goldberg?

[ideola]

Ideola's folly is the thing legends are built on. 

If I get to expose a few trolls along the way, it'll all be worth it

[ideola]

Took MLG out for a 1 hour jaunt today. Nothing fell off. Nothing melted. No CEL. So far so good.

 

[mwmosser]

Took MLG out for a 1 hour jaunt today. Nothing fell off. Nothing melted. No CEL. So far so good.

 

That's a pretty good standard. I think NASA used it for a while until it got them into trouble.

Looks like you're having fun - so great to see one's passion able to be realized in this way. 

[ideola]

That's a pretty good standard. I think NASA used it for a while until it got them into trouble.

I'll keep that in mind for my next low orbit excursion 

[mwmosser]

I'll keep that in mind for my next low orbit excursion 

I saw that the other day in one of your photos. Very Flash Gordon - love it!

[ideola]

Flash Gordon

...was my nickname in elementary school as I was usually the fastest sprinter in class...not any more, tho!

[gizzo]

Took MLG out for a 1 hour jaunt today. Nothing fell off. Nothing melted. No CEL. So far so good.

 

No kittens died? Baby Jesus didn't cry? Awesome!

[justonemore]

If I get to expose a few trolls along the way, it'll all be worth it

Reasonable comment, only having a laugh (hopefully WITH you).
When I call your project a folly I mean "Folly = typically built for visual effect alone", I can't see any horsepower coming from your PVC plumbing. Go for it and prove me wrong. 

[ideola]

Reasonable comment, only having a laugh (hopefully WITH you).

Earlier in this thread:

Unless and until you contribute constructively, I assume you're just a troll

When I call your project a folly I mean "Folly = typically built for visual effect alone", I can't see any horsepower coming from your PVC plumbing. Go for it and prove me wrong. 

Why so fixated on HP? I don't recall stating that the goal of the CAI was higher HP. I expect to get higher HP from the big bore kit. There are other complementary benefits to be gained from a functioning CAI. I've enumerated them earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat them here.

Go for it and prove me wrong. 

I don't know what the results will be. We'll see whether the OBD-II data capture yields any useful information. Stay tuned, and feel free to offer something constructive. Otherwise, I'll just mute and move on. 

[ideola]

The Baak tank belt I ordered wasn't quite the right color, so I used an old trick that I use for conditioning my knife sheaths to darken it. If I can achieve a satisfactory match to the other leather bits for this bike, I'll attempt this on the Baak leather fork gaiters as well.

[RecoilRob]

Move 'er outside for some better photos in the morning light.

The side intake would look cool in brass....very SteamPunk'ish.    I have the TEC header and 2-2 exhausts and with proper tune the engine runs much better and easily exceeds 70 mpg's on the road and certainly didn't hurt the fuel economy.   Been looking at a spare airbox just trying to figure out what RE had in mind....looks like about 6000 rpm tuned trumpets in there but I'm a bit concerned at how close they are to the back wall.   Got to install the restriction meter so I can see if the inlet cover is actually a restriction...which at this time I'm not thinking it is.   Did take out the Sprint filter and go back to a fresh factory version just to retest it with the current engine configuration.   Should get a good feeling on how good it runs after a few tanks through as this latest tune has 3 tanks through with the Sprint filter and I'm running a set 140 mile route so the numbers will be fairly representative and as always the 'Assometer' will be in full diagnostic mode tracking how it's running.

[ideola]

The side intake would look cool in brass....very SteamPunk'ish.

It would indeed! If testing and data capture indicate any measurable improvements with this configuration, I may commission a custom-fabricated alu inlet tube that I will powder coat in one of Prismatic Powders' brass-colored top coats. I'm already planning to do the brass treatment on any of the OEM bits that are bare alu or stainless that I don't black out...

I'm very interested in what you learn with the airbox. Please keep me posted, either here, or link to another thread if you're going to document it seperately.

[fireypete]

I think Ideola and RecoilRob could start a seperate thread just on their ideas! Rob, you mentioned a tune is that a add on or a software job? I can get a software tune done, but $700 bucks is a bit of a stretch! 
Do you think...another idea of mine-gawd help us.. drill 2x holes back of air box, attach silicone or whatever extensions to trumpets and put a couple of pod filters on, and place them in the cooler air..possible?

[justonemore]

cooler air..possible?

Connect one of these to the airbox ...
https://motorbikewriter.com/air-conditioning-motorcycles/
See, I'm not a troll, I'm helpful 

[RecoilRob]

I think Ideola and RecoilRob could start a seperate thread just on their ideas! Rob, you mentioned a tune is that a add on or a software job? I can get a software tune done, but $700 bucks is a bit of a stretch! 
Do you think...another idea of mine-gawd help us.. drill 2x holes back of air box, attach silicone or whatever extensions to trumpets and put a couple of pod filters on, and place them in the cooler air..possible?

I've got the PowerTronic tuner installed and would have preferred flashing the ECU but haven't found that service offered that I could buy and won't send the box for someone else to tune.  The tunes RaceDynamics have on their site for downloading got us running and their Mode 1 for exhaust and air filter mods works well....great mileage, torque and more power....but their Mode 2 took some tweaking to make it work the way we wanted.   

The 650 is a really different motor to work on..not because it's not the same but because the cam timing is SO gentle it will pull from almost idle and if it's making noise out of the pipes it'll pull without complaint.   It won't pull as hard down just off of idle as things are sized well for about 6000 efficiently and it does this very nicely.   Revving it out lets it make more power...if wanted, but cruising aroung 5-6000 like so many ride video's I've watched has me wondering if they actually think about what's going on?   It doesn't need to rev....so the highest gear it'll pull with adequate vigor is the right one and this will often be 6th....even with the 16T front sprocket.

If people want to make cosmetic or aural changes to the bike it's up to them, but before I get into thinking I'm going to actually improve things I'd want some instrumentation to back me up.   K&N has a very sensitive meter that I've had on many vehicles now and I'm thinking the 650 won't pull much vacuum in the box at all...even with the stock filter.   So any gains to be had probably won't be from a drastic reduction in restriction or temperature but rather a change in the tuning point.   You can easily go up in the powerband by shortening the stacks...about 1.5" per 1000 revs give or take.  This is why I'm going to stay at 650....if you go 865 it won't rev nearly as high...which can be a good thing if that's what you want.   To make more HP it's easiest to increase the revs and there is LOTS of potential in the RE 650...just need to retain the excellent fuel economy while increasing the output.   Simple!

[ideola]

I've got the PowerTronic tuner installed and would have preferred flashing the ECU but haven't found that service offered that I could buy and won't send the box for someone else to tune.  The tunes RaceDynamics have on their site for downloading got us running and their Mode 1 for exhaust and air filter mods works well....great mileage, torque and more power....but their Mode 2 took some tweaking to make it work the way we wanted.   

The 650 is a really different motor to work on..not because it's not the same but because the cam timing is SO gentle it will pull from almost idle and if it's making noise out of the pipes it'll pull without complaint.   It won't pull as hard down just off of idle as things are sized well for about 6000 efficiently and it does this very nicely.   Revving it out lets it make more power...if wanted, but cruising aroung 5-6000 like so many ride video's I've watched has me wondering if they actually think about what's going on?   It doesn't need to rev....so the highest gear it'll pull with adequate vigor is the right one and this will often be 6th....even with the 16T front sprocket.

If people want to make cosmetic or aural changes to the bike it's up to them, but before I get into thinking I'm going to actually improve things I'd want some instrumentation to back me up.   K&N has a very sensitive meter that I've had on many vehicles now and I'm thinking the 650 won't pull much vacuum in the box at all...even with the stock filter.   So any gains to be had probably won't be from a drastic reduction in restriction or temperature but rather a change in the tuning point.   You can easily go up in the powerband by shortening the stacks...about 1.5" per 1000 revs give or take.  This is why I'm going to stay at 650....if you go 865 it won't rev nearly as high...which can be a good thing if that's what you want.   To make more HP it's easiest to increase the revs and there is LOTS of potential in the RE 650...just need to retain the excellent fuel economy while increasing the output.   Simple!

Fantastic, thanks for the details!

I'm more interested in torque than peak power; I don't plan to race where top-end power is more of a consideration. For spirited street driving, more usable torque is the fun-maker.

[fireypete]

Torque for me. I don't go too high up the tach. Enjoy grunt! Good info, thanks.

[ideola]

Here is an extremely relevant article on torque.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/motorcycle-torque-curve-differences/

[Starpeve]

Here is an extremely relevant article on torque.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/motorcycle-torque-curve-differences/

Brilliant article confirming what most experienced riders probably believed viscerally.

[ideola]

First two runs with data logging:

Run 1 (DNA Air Filter and Cover, OEM side cover):
12.4 miles
Elapsed time: 16 minutes
Ambient temp at start of run: 76°F
Peak IAT: 102.2°F
Average IAT: 98.1°F
Peak EOT: 230.0°F
Average EOT: 208.8°F

Run 2 (DNA Air Filter and Cover, with ram air snorkel attached):
12.4 miles
Elapsed time: 15 minutes
Ambient temp at start of run: 78°F
Peak IAT: 98.6°F
Average IAT: 93.9°F
Peak EOT: 224.6°F
Average EOT: 213.0°F

It's only one test, but it is interesting. With the CAI, the average delta in IAT from ambient was +16°F; without, the average delta from ambient was +22°F. That is a reduction of 6°F.

More tests and longer runs with varying loads should yield some interesting results. Will pay more attention to trimming the beginning and ends of the data stream to minimize skewing of the averages and peaks while sitting at the start and ends of the runs.

[ideola]

Moar data, with CAI

71.5 miles
Elapsed time: 1:39:35
Ambient temp at start of run: 88°F
Peak IAT: 104°F (recorded twice while stuck at long traffic signals)
Average IAT: 99.4°F
Peak EOT: 240.8°F (recorded twice while stuck at long traffic signals)
Average EOT: 228.3°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +11°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +5.2°F

[ideola]

I did two more runs today following the exact same route as the immediately preceding post. I call this route the "Solon Mills Loop".

Based on the data, I am fairly comfortable stating that the CAI appears to have a very clear impact on lowering IAT.

First Run
Factory air filter, factory filter cover, aftermarket metal side cover (no CAI)
Ambient conditions at start of run: 76°F @ 85% humidity
Departure time: 07:57 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:32:33
Distance covered: 71.4 miles
Top Speed: 80.8MPH
Avg Speed: 47.2MPH
Peak IAT: 109.4°F
Low IAT: 98.6°F
Average IAT: 101.2°F
Peak EOT: 230°F
Average EOT: 208.1°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +25°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +22.6°F
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +33.4°F
Ambient conditions at end of run: 76°F @ 85% humidity (no change)

Observations:

• Once the oil temp stabilized at its usual 210°-230°F range, the IAT was well above 100°F for virtually the entire run, except for a ~6 minute window beginning at the ~56 minute mark, where the temp dropped down to 98.6°F. During this stretch, there were 3 stops and 2 slowdowns for traffic or intersections interspersed between sustained speeds above 60MPH
• For the rest of the run, when zooming in on the data, there is a very clear direct correlation of speeds above 50MPH to immediate increases in IAT.
  
• The peak temp of 109.4°F occurred ~40 minutes into the ride for a period of ~3 minutes with sustained speeds above 60MPH and one slow down to 30MPH due to traffic.
• This pattern repeated at the very end of the run, with near-peak temp recorded of 107.6°F over the last 5 minutes of the rides with sustained speeds well in excess of 60 MPH

################

Second Run
DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, snorkel style cold air intake attached
Ambient conditions at start of run: 78°F @ 80% humidity
Departure time: 09:53 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:36:08
Distance covered: 71.4 miles
Top Speed: 81.4MPH
Avg Speed: 48.0MPH
Peak IAT: 96.8°F
Low IAT: 87.8°F
Average IAT: 93.0°F
Peak EOT: 235°F
Average EOT: 222.3°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +12.5°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +4.8°F
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +20.6°F
Ambient conditions at end of run: 83°F @ 70% humidity (+5°F increase during the run)

• The lowest IAT achieved (in Run 2) of 87.8° happened 1 hour and 6 minutes into the run, lasted for 2 minutes 19 seconds, during which time I hit speeds just over 80 MPH, with one stop at a four way stop sign about 30 seconds before the IAT crept back up to 89.6°F
• There was a contiguous period of ~6 minutes surrounding the above where the IAT never exceeded 90°F, and the speeds were between 60-80 MPH with exception of the single stop noted above.
• This occurence happened late in the run when the ambient temperature was at or near the 83°F recorded at the end of the run. (The CGT's ECU does not record ambient temp, and I have no way to capture it dynamically).
• When zooming in on the data for the second run, there is a very clear inverse correlation of 50+MPH resulting in reduction in recorded IAT within 30 seconds.
• I believe the slightly better results between today's second run (avg IAT of 93°F) and yesterday's run (avg IAT of 99°F) are due to two factors: 1) less traffic on a Sunday, so much less time stuck in slower traffic and at intersections (evidenced by today's average speed of 48MPH vs yesterday's average of 43MPH); and 2) slightly lower ambient temps (78°-83°F during today's run vs 88°F throughout yesterday's run)

####################
This data leads me to believe that the CAI snorkel is quite capable of achieving notable reduction in IAT. The data indicates that when the bike is moving, the CAI can maintain IATs that are only 10-15° warmer than ambient, which is a signficant reduction when compared with the average +25° delta using the stock filter and filter cover. While moving at speeds above 50MPH, the CAI appears to be able to reduce the IATs very close to ambient, which is exactly what one would expect from a ram air system (the article I posted earlier indicated that such benefits accrue above 50MPH). Without the CAI, the IATs tend to peak at high speeds, which is exactly the time you don't want them to.

I have purchased and received a spare airbox from a salvaged bike. I will be taking a closer look at what can be done to insulate the box itself, as I believe a significant amount of the remaining gain in IAT is due to heat inducted off the back of the engine, onto the leading edge of the airbox, and into the plenum. The airbox surface gets quite warm on days like today with spirited driving, so I suspect that some strategically-placed insulating materials could further reduce IAT.

{EDIT}
FWIW, here's a screen shot of the "Solon Mills Loop" from my Beeline app. Direction of travel is counter-clockwise. High speed section is the "backward 7" in the upper northwest corner of the route.

[ideola]

w000000000000t

[zimmemr]

w000000000000t

Funny the first thing I noticed was the pup.

[ideola]

Funny the forst thing I noticed was the pup.

Ranger Dangerzone!

[ideola]

The shape of things to come........

[Toontje]

Very nice, sir!

[ideola]

Very nice, sir!

I'm stoked! My painter stopped by to pick everything up last night, should be in paint by next week. The delay will be getting all of the brackets powder coated, as that takes a little longer.

[BlackIce619]

Will you go with the flow of the tank and keep the front gray/silver and back black? or what did you have in mind to paint them?

[ideola]

Will you go with the flow of the tank and keep the front gray/silver and back black? or what did you have in mind to paint them?

Complete color change. British Racing Green, probably one of the Jaguar non-metallic variants. I'll be looking at swatches this weekend. With brass and "tobacco-stained" leather embellishments.

[BlackIce619]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fATcmrLkuNk&t=25s

You may have seen this video or not, but here is one painted in green with track goodies.

[ideola]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fATcmrLkuNk&t=25s

You may have seen this video or not, but here is one painted in green with track goodies.

Thanks for the share! I hadn't seen that video, but that is definitely one of the bikes I've collected several photos of. It's featured on the Autologue site where I purchased my faring and cowl.

[ideola]

Prep.

[ideola]

This morning, I had an opportunity to get the Interceptor out for a ~3.5 hour ride. It was a great opportunity to test the delta between measured IAT and ambient temps during much cooler weather. I stopped for breakfast after about 1.5 hours of riding, and then completed the last 2 hours without stopping. For this data collection excercise, I removed the booster plug (which I normally run on the INT) so as not to skew the IAT readings.

First 1.5 Hours
DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, aftermarket metal side cover (no CAI, no booster plug)
Ambient conditions at start of run: 59°F @ 92% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 68°F @ 72% humidity
Avearage Ambient Temp: 63.5°F
Departure time: 07:51 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:30
Distance covered: 62.2 miles
Top Speed: 79.5MPH
Avg Speed: 46.1MPH
Peak IAT: 91.4°F
Low IAT: 80.6°F (first ~30 minutes during the coolest ambient temps after the EOT surpassed 200°F)
Average IAT: 84.2°F
Peak EOT: 224.6°F
Average EOT: 208.3°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +20.7°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +20.7°F
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +23.4°F (at 9:09 AM, just before stopping for breakfast, all at speeds well above 50MPH)

Last ~2 hours
DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, aftermarket metal side cover (no CAI, no booster plug)
Ambient conditions at start of run: 70°F @ 62% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 76°F @ 44% humidity
Avearage Ambient Temp: 73°F
Departure time: 10:04 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:54
Distance covered: 78.6 miles
Top Speed: 77.05MPH
Avg Speed: 41.9MPH
Peak IAT: 96.8°F
Low IAT: 87.8°F (13 minutes after EOT stabilizing at >200°F)
Average IAT: 94.4°F
Peak EOT: 231.8°F
Average EOT: 219.4°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +21.4°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +17.8°F (in the first 20 minutes of the run)
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +23.8°F (at the ~40 minute mark during a 5+ minute run just as I hit 69MPH, with sustained speeds ranging between 55-69 MPH)

Fuel consumed: 2.428 gallons
Miles between fill-ups: 140.2
Fuel economy: 57.74 MPG

Once again, the data show that without the cold air intake, peak temps and peak delta of IAT-to-Ambient always occurs during the highest speed portions of the runs. Today's average deltas were a little better at ~+21°F than last week during the much higher temps (~+25°F).

We'll see if I can get out for a comparison run on the CGT tomorrow with the CAI in similarly favorable and cooler ambient temps.

[ideola]

As hoped, I took "Project MLG" out on a similar ~3.5 hour ride as yesterday's jaunt on the Interceptor. I started 30 minutes earlier, and I only took a 10-minute break to stretch my legs just shy of the 2 hour mark. Ambient temps started similarly, but ended up at 70°F (as opposed to 76°F) due to finishing an hour earlier.

First ~2 Hours
DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, aftermarket metal side cover (with CAI, no booster plug)
Ambient conditions at start of run: 57°F @ 92% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 64°F @ 68% humidity
Avearage Ambient Temp: 61°F
Departure time: 07:29 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:52
Distance covered: 90.7 miles
Top Speed: 74.6MPH
Avg Speed: 49.0MPH
Peak IAT: 86°F
Low IAT: 75.2°F
Average IAT: 78.3°F
Peak EOT: 210.2°F
Average EOT: 203.2°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +17.8°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +11.2°F (ahieved 75.2°F during a high speed run near the first break with ambient temps ~64°F)
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +24°F (near the end of the run driving through a resort area with a 25MPH speed limit)

Last ~1.5 hours
DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, aftermarket metal side cover (with CAI, no booster plug)
Ambient conditions at start of run: 64°F @ 68% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 70°F @ 50% humidity
Avearage Ambient Temp: 67°F
Departure time: 9:30 AM CST
Elapsed time: 1:04
Distance covered: 44.7 miles
Top Speed: 83.9MPH
Avg Speed: 44.2MPH
Peak IAT: 89.6°F
Low IAT: 82.4°F (15 minutes into run at speeds between 59-71MPH)
Average IAT: 86.3°F
Peak EOT: 221.0°F
Average EOT: 212.6°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +19.3°F
Best Amb:IAT Δ : +16.0°F (achieved during the last 60+MPH run 10 minutes before end of data capture)
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +23.8°F (right at the beginning of the run while departing resort area at low speeds)

Fuel consumed: 2.318 gallons
Miles between fill-ups: 137.5
Fuel economy: 59.32 MPG

The IAT:Ambient delta today did not quite ahieve the wider delta results from last week, although the overall temps were better (IAT and EOT). I attribute this to the front of the airbox getting heat soaked from radiated heat off the back of the motor, and inducting that heat into the plenum where the IAT sensor sits; during higher ambient temps, the heat soak effect is more pronounced (resulting in +30°F deltas), so the delta differential is easier to achieve and to measure during those high speed runs (above 50+MPH).

While the deltas were not as pronounced between this weekends' runs as it was during last weeks' runs, there is still a notable correlation of using the CAI to the following measurable data:
1. lower average IATs
2. lower peak IAT
3. lower average delta of IAT:Ambient
4. lower best delta of IAT:Ambient
5. lower peak EOT
6. lower average EOT
7. lowest delta of IAT:Ambient during the highest speed runs (whereas without CAI, this is where peak IAT tends to occur)

[zimmemr]

All interesting info, but subjectively how does the bike run compared to one that's stone stock? Better, worse or about the same?

[ideola]

All interesting info, but subjectively how does the bike run compared to one that's stone stock? Better, worse or about the same?

Subjectively? Better. More pull, all the time. I've described it before as going from "willing" to "eager". I've yet to get up the nerve to "do the ton". Lack of experience plus time of year; the corn is too high, too much risk of wildlife or farmers pulling out in front of you. Maybe after the harvest in cooler weather when long distance visibility along roadways is better, I'll see if I sense any "breathlessness" at the top end. For now, the bike just begs for more.

[zimmemr]

Subjectively? Better. More pull, all the time. I've described it before as going from "willing" to "eager". I've yet to get up the nerve to "do the ton". Lack of experience plus time of year; the corn is too high, too much risk of wildlife or farmers pulling out in front of you. Maybe after the harvest in cooler weather when long distance visibility along roadways is better, I'll see if I sense any "breathlessness" at the top end. For now, the bike just begs for more.

Good deal, it sounds like you're on the right track. 

[ideola]

eNg!Ne PrOn

[ideola]

Today I made two airbox heat shields for each of the bikes. Pretty pleased with the finished prototypes, and hope to get some data logging in this weekend to see what if any impact it has on reducing heat radiated / inducted into the airbox.

Here's the CAD* pattern. I used 16 gauge galvanized sheet steel (because that's what I had on hand) and cut two rectangles 12" wide by 7.5" high.


Here's one of the shields after all the cuts, bends, deburring, etc.


I used the CAD pattern to cut out a piece of Thermo-Tec Adhesive Backed Heat Barrier and affixed it to the metal shield.




_{*cardboard aided design}

[ideola]

Here are some photos with the finished prototype test-fitted to the salvage airbox I bought on eBay a few weeks back. Having it on hand made the patterning a lot more convenient.

[ideola]

And here is the finished "kit", along with photos of it installed on Project MLG.

To install, I used (4) 1.25 Inch Stainless Steel Cable Clamps secured with M5-.8 Extruded U Nuts and M5-0.8 Stainless Steel 304 Hex Socket Button Head Cap Screws



The nice thing about this installation is that it does not interfere with any standard maintenance items (oil filler, air filter, throttle adjustment, etc.). In fact, it can probably be left installed and will never require removal again. But if it does, it's a simple matter of removing the 4 button head screws. Easy peasy.

[ideola]

First data log since adding the airbox heat shield.

DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, custom ABS side panel, with CAI snorkel, with airbox heat shield installed
Ambient conditions at start of run: 76°F @ 50% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 76°F @ 48% humidity
Avearage Ambient Temp: 76°F
Departure time: 12:35 PM CST
Elapsed time: 1:07
Distance covered: 48.2 miles
Top Speed: 73.32MPH
Avg Speed: 45.53MPH

Peak IAT: 96.8°F
Average IAT: 92.5°F
Low IAT: 87.8°F

Peak EOT: 228.2°F
Average EOT: 220.4°F
Low EOT: 213.8°F

Best Amb:IAT Δ : +11.8°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +16.5°F
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +20.8°F

Data file is attached. For the record, I pruned the last several rows where the speed was at 0 (i.e., idling in the garage when I returned home), as well as the first 964 rows which is the warmup period (I don't start calculating deltas until EOT has achieved at least a baseline of 210°F, which usually takes 15-20 minutes depending on conditions).

I don't know that this run was conclusive, but some interesting observations:
The Best Amb:IAT Δ on this run was almost identical to the early morning run I did last week with MUCH cooler starting temps (57°F) over a slightly longer run, and much better than the second half of that run that had an average ambient temp of 67°F, as compared to today's steady ambient temp of 76°F throughout the run. So even with ambient temps that were 20 to 10 degress warmer, I was able to achieve and maintain excellent Amb:IAT deltas; the Avg Amb:IAT Δ and the Worst Amb:IAT Δ today were actually notably better than last week's run (which included the CAI but no heat shield).

Another notable observation:
Toward the very end of the run, 4 minutes before I arrived home, I had a stoppage in my route where I was stuck at a busy highway crossing and unable to move for a full two minutes. At the beginning of the stoppage, the IAT was at 91.4°F (~+15°F above ambient, and actually LESS than the average delta of >+16°F throughout the run). Interestingly, the IAT actually went DOWN during the last 20 seconds of the stoppage to 89.6°F. In all previous runs, an extended period of stoppage or slow driving (<30 MPH) almost always correlates directly with a notable increase in IAT.

I was hoping for better average and best deltas, but compared to the OEM filter, cover, and side plate, which has average delta of +25° and peak deltas of up to +33°F, I believe these results are noteworthy.

I need to do more testing over longer runs in varying temps with more stop and go to test my heat soak hypothesis. More to follow.

[ideola]

Teaser.

[Hoiho]

Teaser.

Taken off the chastity belt - something is about to go down...

[ideola]

This formula explains why the CAI performs better in hotter temps, and also bolster my hunch that more should be done to insulate the airbox from heat radiating off the back of the motor.


In layman's terms, what it says is that the bigger the delta between ambient temp and EOT, the faster the heat (energy) transfer from EOT to the ambient air that gets sucked into the airbox, thereby increasing IAT. It explains why AMB:IAT deltas are higher with lower ambient temps since EOT is relatively constant (averaging ~217°F) once the engine is fully warmed up.

To dos:
1. revise (enlarge) the heatshield to minimize how much EOT-heated air can get around the shield and influence IAT
2. figured out how to remove the airbox; explore options for further insulating it directly
3. explore options for improving oil cooler efficiency by replacing the "bling" protector in favor of a properly designed sealed duct.




Updates to follow.

[NVDucati]

Here are some photos with the finished prototype test-fitted to the salvage airbox I bought on eBay a few weeks back. Having it on hand made the patterning a lot more convenient.

I was just going through some old notes about a non-motorcycle project. It made me think that these are some folks you might reach out to as regards the airbox. They make a ceramic based vacuum bead paint supplement.
https://hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html

"Hy-Tech insulating additive is completely inert and can be mixed into ANY paint, coating or composite including interior house paint, exterior house paint, roof paint, solvent base coating, epoxy, urethane, high temperature paint, elastomerics, mastics etc. The addition of the ceramics to any material provides improved fire resistance, protection of coated surfaces from harmful UV rays, repulsion of chewing insects and increased durability of the coating due to the hard ceramic finish. Ceramic filled paint is easier to clean and lasts far longer than conventional paint pigments."

[ideola]

I was just going through some old notes about a non-motorcycle project. It made me think that these are some folks you might reach out to as regards the airbox. They make a ceramic based vacuum bead paint supplement.
https://hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html

Very innerdasting!

[Jared_Lee]

Genuine critical question, not a nay-saying asshole question - what actual, measurable, useful result are you aiming to achieve by so significantly reducing IAT? I understand the theoretical of lower IAT, but in this actual instance of achieved reduction, what rubber to the road benefit are you measuring and achieving?

[ideola]

Genuine critical question, not a nay-saying asshole question - what actual, measurable, useful result are you aiming to achieve by so significantly reducing IAT? I understand the theoretical of lower IAT, but in this actual instance of achieved reduction, what rubber to the road benefit are you measuring and achieving?

Measuring impact to performance will come later once I've been able to conclusively identify which mods result in the greatest reduction of IAT.

Colder air is more dense and will typically increase both torque and horsepower.

All of this work is in anticipation of the 865 big bore + high CR pistons + Revelry big valve head + Stage II cam + big bore throttle bodies.

Number 1 goal is to reduce the overall operating temperature of the engine in light of the power adders I will be adding over the winter. So some of the motiviation is pre-emptive reduction in both EOT and IAT since the bigger motor with higher compression is almost certain to produce more heat than the stock lump.

Number 2 goal is to address this build as a complete system. If executed correctly, small incremental changes in numerous areas should maximize the power potential of the engine. If I can consistently get ambient temps 10° - 20° F lower than a bone stock configuration, it should result in a measurable increase in top end HP, but more importantly, torque under the curve.

I am not going for a maximum effort track bike with high-revving top end power. I am going for a quick bike for motoring on backcountry roads where additional torque under the curve will result in a more spirited driving experience. Cold air = torque, plain and simple.

[grahamb1]

I'm just curious - do you have a daytime job, (or a very understanding partner), or is this your job?

[ideola]

I run a cybersecurity consultancy for my "day job".

SWMBO is begrudgingly understanding.

Automotive/powersports modifying is now just a hobby, although I ran a side business for 15 years developing and reselling performance mods for early 80s water cooled front engined Porsches. I sold off a 17-car collection and shuttered that business 2 years ago, but I still sell a couple of the proprietary products I developed (EFI conversion kits, top mount intercoolers in air to air and liquid to air configurations, etc.).

[Jared_Lee]

Got it. Are you going to do dyno runs with and without your IAT system for measurement? I agree that for the riding I do, low down torque is far more useful and fun than top-end hp. Though I do miss running my '78 CB550 out to 7,000 rpm and feeling it still gaining. Haha.

[ideola]

I do plan to have it professionally tuned on a dyno once the big bore / big valve engine is in and running. I have a baseline map from Hitchcocks for their cam + the big bore, but there will be more tuning to do beyond that with the big valve head and big bore throttle bodies.

I'm probably not going to do delta comparisons of the CAI at the dyno simply for budgetary reasons. I already have at least 8 different variations that I'd like to test for the CAI, and there are more that could be contrived. I just don't have budget to do all of that while paying professional tuner fees.

Once I have a good tune and a baseline dyno, I should be able to enter relevant parameters into Torque Pro and do my own rolling road testing. Dyno power =/= road power under load and varying atmospheric conditions. But Torque Pro should allow me to produce some useful comparisons with different configurations. Even if the raw numbers aren't 100% accurate, it's the % of change that will be relevant because it can then be used to extrapolate against a the dyno figures produced in a controlled environment.

[mwmosser]

Measuring impact to performance will come later once I've been able to conclusively identify which mods result in the greatest reduction of IAT.

Colder air is more dense and will typically increase both torque and horsepower.

All of this work is in anticipation of the 865 big bore + high CR pistons + Revelry big valve head + Stage II cam + big bore throttle bodies.

Number 1 goal is to reduce the overall operating temperature of the engine in light of the power adders I will be adding over the winter. So some of the motiviation is pre-emptive reduction in both EOT and IAT since the bigger motor with higher compression is almost certain to produce more heat than the stock lump.

Number 2 goal is to address this build as a complete system. If executed correctly, small incremental changes in numerous areas should maximize the power potential of the engine. If I can consistently get ambient temps 10° - 20° F lower than a bone stock configuration, it should result in a measurable increase in top end HP, but more importantly, torque under the curve.

I am not going for a maximum effort track bike with high-revving top end power. I am going for a quick bike for motoring on backcountry roads where additional torque under the curve will result in a more spirited driving experience. Cold air = torque, plain and simple.

I've been following this build with great interest, as you know. I'm wondering if you're sticking with the stock rims/tires once you have all this new power added? I think you've already done the suspension, right? I could go back and look through the thread, but I'm supposed to be grading midterms....

[ideola]

Long story short, I'm staying with stock rims. I have two other threads about wheels and tires (respectively), and to net it out, custom wheel sizes were just too daunting of a task for me to sort out with negligible benefit. If there was a halfway doable route to 17" rims, I would have done it, but then tire sizes became a challenge.

For tires, I will be installing fresh rubber in early 2022 after the motor is done and I'm ready to launch that iteration of the bike. Leading choice right now are the 90-10 Avon Trailriders in 110/80-18 & 150/70-18.

[ideola]

I think you've already done the suspension, right?

Sorry, forgot to answer this part.

Yes, I just added the YSS front fork upgrade kit yesterday, and I had previously installed the TEC Black Alloy Remote Reservoir Shocks for Royal Enfield 650cc. From the TEC website:

TEC All alloy rear gas piggyback shocks with adjustable damping to fit Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 & Continental GT 650.
These shocks retain stock ride height. We also have shocks to lower the seat height by approximately 3/4 of an inch. See separate listings.
The shocks feature:

• Our triple rate progressive springs.
• Black with black springs
• They are adjustable in length from 350mm to 390mm between centers and 35mm range of adjustment on the pre-load of the spring.
• 15 way adjustable 'click' damping.
• These units have long travel (80mm) which gives better comfort and ride.

Supplied with springs for an average weight rider160 - 240lbs. If your ready-to-ride weight is less than 160lbs leave a note in Order Comments at Checkout and we will change the springs to our softer option.
The design is much cleaner than the original shocks provided on the bike, which are a bit rounded and chunky in our opinion.
Provides better damping performance and are lighter than the original units.
Shocks are supplied ready to fit will all necessary fittings and adjustment wrench included.

I am ~185 lbs, so these shocks seemed like a good bargain with enough adjustability to suit my novice needs. Big bonus for me was the blackout option. I have done absolutely NOTHING yet with respect to adjusting the suspension because I have no idea what I'm doing there. But this will be one of my topics of research and learning in the coming weeks now that I completed the YSS front fork upgraded installation.

[ideola]

[mwmosser]

That, my friend, is a piece of art. Even more Flash Gordon vibes with that one - I’m speechless.

Really impressed both with your vision and your execution. Kudos all around.

[Kiwi Rob]

Wow , that is a seriously impressive looking bike.  Well done!

[GSS]

Very nice work. Well done!

[ideola]

Moar data:

DNA air filter, DNA filter cover, Steel side panel with CAI snorkel, with airbox heat shield installed
Ambient conditions at start of run: 62°F @ 61% humidity
Ambient conditions at end of run: 81°F @ 32% humidity

Departure time: 09:44 AM CST
Elapsed time: 5:00 (including stops)
Distance covered: 152.5 miles
Top Speed: 83.3 MPH
Avg Speed: 42.6 MPH

Peak IAT: 102.2°F
Average IAT: 93.5°F
Low IAT: 78.8°F

Peak EOT: 235.4°F
Average EOT: 218.0°F
Low EOT: 199.4°F

Best Amb:IAT Δ : +15.2°F
Avg Amb:IAT Δ : +22.0°F
Worst Amb:IAT Δ : +28.4°F

Miles between fill-ups: 105.7
Fuel consumed: 1.591
Mileage: 66.4 MPG

The data continue to show that lower ambient temps result in worse deltas, which reinforces the heat-transfer theory discussed above (the bigger the delta between ambient air and EOT, the faster the heat transfer). Conversely, the best deltas are consistently at high speeds when ambient temps are near or above 80°F.

Since installing the faring kit, I have slightly repositioned the snorkel to be "tucked" under the tank. Consequently, it is pressed against the valve cover, and I believe a significant amount of heat is ingressing the snorkel tube from that contact. There are several things yet to try:
1. Sealed ducting on the frontal area of the oil cooler to improve its efficiency. Goal is to keep EOT as close to a constant 220°F as possible regardless of ambient temps.
2. Insulate the snorkel tube (and possibly put it back where it was so it doesn't touch the valve cover)
3. Improve the design of the airbox heat shield
4. Directly insulate the airbox
5. "Flush" the void between the back of the head and the face of the airbox with a stream of cool air inducted from the front of the bike
6. Better insulate (i.e., wrap) the section of the Zard high side exhaust that is behind its integral heat shields

[nin73]

Why don't you buy one of the Revelry Racing maps they have for the exact mods you list below? I've got the mods you mentioned and am in the process of getting them fitted.

I do plan to have it professionally tuned on a dyno once the big bore / big valve engine is in and running. I have a baseline map from Hitchcocks for their cam + the big bore, but there will be more tuning to do beyond that with the big valve head and big bore throttle bodies.

I'm probably not going to do delta comparisons of the CAI at the dyno simply for budgetary reasons. I already have at least 8 different variations that I'd like to test for the CAI, and there are more that could be contrived. I just don't have budget to do all of that while paying professional tuner fees.

Once I have a good tune and a baseline dyno, I should be able to enter relevant parameters into Torque Pro and do my own rolling road testing. Dyno power =/= road power under load and varying atmospheric conditions. But Torque Pro should allow me to produce some useful comparisons with different configurations. Even if the raw numbers aren't 100% accurate, it's the % of change that will be relevant because it can then be used to extrapolate against a the dyno figures produced in a controlled environment.

[ideola]

Map is only the starting point. Each build still needs to be tuned for optimal performance.

[nin73]

Map is only the starting point. Each build still needs to be tuned for optimal performance.

Totally agree, but will give you a good start point whilst you run in the new parts and shouldn't be all over the place. That's what I will be doing.

[ideola]

I will have to see if they will give up their map. I've spent a lot of money with them, so they should...but don't know if their map is set for the Hitchcocks Stage 2 cam.

[ideola]

Progress Update
865 + other mods almost complete. Just delivered a modified airbox today, so installation should be done next week.

[NVDucati]

Progress Update
865 + other mods almost complete. Just delivered a modified airbox today, so installation should be done next week.

Love the name plate on the head.

[grahamb1]

Those gold engine covers are pretty cool.  Are they anodised?

[ideola]

Those gold engine covers are pretty cool.  Are they anodised?

They are powder-coated using a transparent powder from Prismatic Powders, so they kind of look anodized, but should be easier to keep clean and free of water spotting.

[Suncoast]

Hey Ideola, I love all the work you've put into your bike, super unique!! I'm looking at mounting a Motone tail light similar to yours, can you post a closer pic of how you've tied in the tail light and fender? How did you secure the fender? Thanks

[robrobsen]

Progress Update

I see you changed your gear shifter.. yours is a GT 650 correct ? I know TEC offers a nice adjustable gear shifter but only fits on the Interceptor. Trying to find an adjustable version for the GT. I see you have it on yours. Thanks

[ideola]

Hey Ideola, I love all the work you've put into your bike, super unique!! I'm looking at mounting a Motone tail light similar to yours, can you post a closer pic of how you've tied in the tail light and fender? How did you secure the fender? Thanks

Thanks for the kind words!

I simply removed the OEM housing, but retained the gasket and license plate holder and used the OEM mounting points to secure it to the frame and the fender. I did have to drill the welded-on bracket for the bolt pattern of that specific tail light fixture, but that was very minor, and if I ever reverted back to OEM assembly, would be complete covered by the OEM housing.

[ideola]

I see you changed your gear shifter.. yours is a GT 650 correct ? I know TEC offers a nice adjustable gear shifter but only fits on the Interceptor. Trying to find an adjustable version for the GT. I see you have it on yours. Thanks

Yes, I ordered and installed the setup from K-Speed Japan: https://k-speed.com/en/collections/royal-enfield-parts/products/k-speed-gt18-black

The are very nicely made and relatively easy to install, although they didn't come with any instructions, and the one video on YouTube is by some chucklehead with no mechanical ability. In any event, I wanted this setup because it allows an even more aggressive tuck position that is suitable for the fairing and lowered clip ons on my bike.

[robrobsen]

Yes, I ordered and installed the setup from K-Speed Japan: https://k-speed.com/en/collections/royal-enfield-parts/products/k-speed-gt18-black

The are very nicely made and relatively easy to install, although they didn't come with any instructions, and the one video on YouTube is by some chucklehead with no mechanical ability. In any event, I wanted this setup because it allows an even more aggressive tuck position that is suitable for the fairing and lowered clip ons on my bike.

Sweet i like that. Thank you for the link.

[ideola]

Almost ready for dyno tuning

[ideola]

I hope to ride the last 60 miles of break-in today. Then oil change, and waiting in line to take to the tuners.

[wachuko]

Where the heck is that  Like button!!

Sweet!! 

[torquey]

That’s why the forum gets a bit old at times.  Everyone has an engineer friend named Bearded Hillbilly that heard something somewhere.  Or someone that wrenched on something 20 years ago and knows better than anyone else, no matter what’s happened in the interim.  They’re usually good for calling out your lack of published support data or in this case wind tunnel data (for a fun side project)…really? Where is their data? Don’t ask.  As an actual engineer with 60-70 utility patents I’ve heard it all before.  It’s fun having the thought of “just wait and see” in the back of your mind. And better still, since this isn’t your 9-5 and it’s for fun, you’re experimenting, learning and having a good time. Maybe other’s definition of a good time is slag-talking people for actually doing something.  Don’t listen to ‘em.  Great job.  I’m on page 4. It’s looks dope. Just having a hard time working through all the unsolicited naysayers.  Maybe it makes em feel superior to shit talk someone doing something?

This ain't my first rodeo.
Not by a long shot.
LOL, "dude", and so are you!

You could be right, in part or in whole. Then again, growing up in Detroit hot-rod culture and building a 20-year side-business developing performance mods for the much-maligned Porsche 924/931 series, I've seen enough bone-headed designs come out of OEMs because the accountants got involved to know there's always room for experimentation and improvement. The idea that "the factory didn't do it so it must not be a good idea" has been debunked more times than I can count.

I'm used to the naysayers, negative nancys, and armchair engineers. I couldn't care less what someone else thinks is a waste of time or worthwhile pursuit. I'm just gonna do what I do and enjoy my hobby.

Cheers! 

[ideola]

Thanks for the supportive words    I truly appreciate it.

Project MLG is being booked in to Fornarelli Motorsports on Saturday. They are one of the top DynoJet tuners in Chicagoland according to several people I've spoken with. Everyone I asked recommended them first, and they're only 30 minutes from my house, so it's a no brainer to take it to them.

I will be out of state for 3 weeks thereafter, so not sure when I will get results, but it will be soonish.

Stay tuned. (pardon the pun)

[torquey]

Could you share some details on the control levers, brake cylinder and reservoir?  Do you notice a difference in braking with the different cylinder? Do you happen to know the bore of the brake cylinder? For all I know they’re universal, but I thought I’d ask.  Thanks. 

[ideola]

I ordered the lever kit and reservoir setup from Omnia Racing. Here are the part names, SKUs, and links:
Lever kit: TWM CONTROL KIT JOINTED CLUTCH LEVER AND RADIAL BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER BREMBO RACING RCS 15 LONG LEVER (LCS.01 + 110A26330)
Reservoir: RIZOMA OIL FLUID RESERVOIR FOR FRONT BRAKE PUMP BLACK COLOR (CT027B)
Bracket: RIZOMA MOUNTING KIT FOR OIL FLUID TANK BLACK COLOR BLACK (CT451B)

I've only done the 300 mile break-in on the big bore motor, so I've not gotten aggressive with braking, consequently, I don't really have any feedback other than "it works". But I do like the adjustability on both of the levers.

[ideola]

Here's the specs from the Brembo site:
https://moto.brembo.com/en/detail/110A26320

[torquey]

Thanks a bunch for that.  They sure are nice!  Again, thanks for your time.

[ideola]

Initial Dyno Results are posted here:
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=33232.0

Cliff notes: This is one of the highest HP figures I've seen DOCUMENTED for the big bore kit, but there's more to be had if I can find higher capacity injectors....................

[Suncoast]

I'm wondering if Ideola's bike is still around, I'd love to hear how it's going and if the intake mods he completed are still good? Anyone heard from him?

[Quest]

I'm wondering if Ideola's bike is still around, I'd love to hear how it's going and if the intake mods he completed are still good? Anyone heard from him?

+1
He was fresh set of eyes nd a very clever guy.
I wondered if the "Negative Nancys" eventually sucked the fun out of his participation.

[ideola]

Hey everybody, long time no post 

It wasn't so much the negative nancies...as tiresome as they are, they never deter me...

Life kinda got in the way for the past two years...a divorce and three moves later, I'm finally settled into a new home on the west coast of Michigan. In addition to continuing with my cybersecurity consulting day job, I've launched a music venue called The Starlight Room, which is a mashup of a listening room and recording studio. For those interested, you can check out some of the incredible talent we've recorded on our YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@TheStarlightRoom

So, back on topic...Project MLG is just fine. Nothing's fallen off, nothing's melted, and it's still a freakin' riot to hoon around on, especially along our beautiful "Third Coast".




The cold air intake works, plain and simple. The hotter the ambient temp, the better it performs. My data captures elsewhere on the board conclusively establish that. The bike is a real head-turner, I get stopped and chatted up every time I take it out. Interestingly, there are fewer Royal Enfields over here than when I lived a stone's throw from Harley HQ! I haven't been able to ride as frequently as I'd like because of the music venue, BUT, I absolutely love both projects, each so different and satisfying in distinct ways. If all my capital and energy weren't tied up in the venue, I'd be buying a Super Meteor!

[Vanhoman]

Bike looks great.